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  1. - Top - End - #271
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    fendrin's Avatar

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    Default Re: Erfworld 76, page 70

    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl View Post
    And we make references to miles, meters, inches, feet, minutes, seconds, hours, MPH, KPH, FPS. It's the Local Reality.

    You could say that some World Leaders, both past and present, exhibit game-like behavior in the Aggressive Expansion mode of thought (RTS, of course). Build armies, conquer land, concern about supply, research new technologies to make conquering even more land easier...

    We could be playing a game (like the Erfworlders), but not know it (again, like the Erfworlders).
    ooh! metaphysics!
    who here has seen The Matrix?
    Same idea.

  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Girl Wonder's Avatar

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    Default Re: Erfworld 76, page 70

    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl View Post
    And we make references to miles, meters, inches, feet, minutes, seconds, hours, MPH, KPH, FPS. It's the Local Reality.

    You could say that some World Leaders, both past and present, exhibit game-like behavior in the Aggressive Expansion mode of thought (RTS, of course). Build armies, conquer land, concern about supply, research new technologies to make conquering even more land easier...

    We could be playing a game (like the Erfworlders), but not know it (again, like the Erfworlders).
    I understand your point, but I believe we're simply arguing syntax. Charlie could be (in his mind) simply trying to 'win at life', but in Erfworld meta-reality, it might be described as trying to 'win the game' through the acquisition of shmuckers. Either way, his behavior in-game/in-Erfworld is identical. Anyway, that was just a bit of color and not the point of my post, which was to air a Jillian/Archon idea. That said, I -do- think it's interesting to conjecture whether Erfworld has 'victory conditions' (it seems likely) and if so, what might they be?

  3. - Top - End - #273
    Magnificent Boop in the Playground
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    Default Re: Erfworld 76, page 70

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    I like your idea better. We don't know that Jillian has broken the spell. She's also doing exactly what Sizemore said the spell would make her do: lead recklessly.
    I still think the recklessness is simply Jillian being Jillian. My read on the situation is that she's broken the spell (for one thing, her failure to come up with a rationalization for bypassing the wounded dwagons is exactly what Sizemore described as a spell-breaking situation), but that there are remaining mundane psychological issues that are currently pushed aside in the heat of combat (another case of Jillian being Jillian) but still have the potential to complicate things.

    Furthermore, the message Jillian sent Ansom can be considered to be good for Wanda. It allays suspicion that Jillian is a spy. I spy must be trusted to be effective.
    The trouble with this line of reasoning is that it makes it possible to square any observed behavior with the notion that the spell is still in effect. That makes it impossible to come to any conclusions (Titans know it's difficult enough as it is ).

    That said, I'll follow GW's lead and post a scenario that I don't think is particularly likely, but possibly interesting:

    Spoiler
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    If Wanda intends to eventually dispense with Stanley, getting all the dwagons croaked would make his one asset (the Arkenhammer) a lot less powerful.

    The main problem then is the military defense of Gobwin Knob. She might (being just a tad disposed toward overconfidence) think that her legions of uncroaked would suffice. Alternatively, if she understands Ansom's motivations as indicated by his conversation with Vinny, she might hope to sue for peace. Handing over Stanley's head on a platter would satisfy Ansom's personal motivation, and getting Jillian to reveal herself as the legitimate heir would satisfy his political one (and also provide an answer to the question of what the Coalition would do with GK once they had it).

    Of course, if that's the game Wanda was playing, losing control of Jillian (and possibly getting her croaked) puts something of a crimp in her plans....

  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Lamech's Avatar

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    Default Re: Erfworld 76, page 70

    Quote Originally Posted by jindra34 View Post
    I was saying it would leave team Jillian open to a counter attack.
    Opps... I feel really stupid right now.


    And we make references to miles, meters, inches, feet, minutes, seconds, hours, MPH, KPH, FPS.
    Yes, all those things are constructs, they are arbitrary units. Someone decided their values. We could have made diffrent units that mesured the same things. Like a unit of time that is a little longer or shorter than a second.
    In erfworld no one decided how big a hex was going to be that is a natural part of erfworld. Units have stats, but those stats are a natural part of the unit. No one decided how much a hit point was or an attack point those things just are.

  5. - Top - End - #275
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    Default Re: Erfworld 76, page 70

    Quote Originally Posted by lamech View Post
    Yes, all those things are constructs, they are arbitrary units. Someone decided their values. We could have made diffrent units that mesured the same things. Like a unit of time that is a little longer or shorter than a second.
    In erfworld no one decided how big a hex was going to be that is a natural part of erfworld. Units have stats, but those stats are a natural part of the unit. No one decided how much a hit point was or an attack point those things just are.
    True, but a day is still the same length, regardless of how we measure time. And a man can only run so far in an hour, regardless of how we measure distance. We Earth-worlders tend to think of us as set and world as relative to us. The Erf-worlders take the opposite, that the world is static and they have to play by its rules.
    'Old fool!' he said. 'Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!' And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade.

  6. - Top - End - #276
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    Default Re: Erfworld 76, page 70

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMB View Post
    I still think the recklessness is simply Jillian being Jillian. My read on the situation is that she's broken the spell (for one thing, her failure to come up with a rationalization for bypassing the wounded dwagons is exactly what Sizemore described as a spell-breaking situation), but that there are remaining mundane psychological issues that are currently pushed aside in the heat of combat (another case of Jillian being Jillian) but still have the potential to complicate things.
    Yes, either way, Sizemore is right. He stated that the spell could cause her to do things she was already inclined to do. Thus we cannot easily distinguish between Jillian-acting-on-her-own and Jillian-influenced-by-the-spell.

    The underlying point of what Sizemore said is that the spell will only push Jillian so far.

    No one (except the archons, possibly Jillian, and possibly Wanda) at this point knows whether the spell was broken. Heck, Jillian (and maybe Wanda) may think the spell is broken even if it's not. I doubt that the Archons will tell without a sizeable fee. That may even be WHY Jaclyn(?) brought it up. Bend a rule to give a taste, then demand full payment to get the real deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMB View Post
    The trouble with this line of reasoning is that it makes it possible to square any observed behavior with the notion that the spell is still in effect. That makes it impossible to come to any conclusions (Titans know it's difficult enough as it is ).
    Up to a certain point. Jillian directly harming Wanda would be her definiteively acting on her own. In fact, the scenario you present may be the 'out' that Jillian found to justify her attacking the dwagons.

    A key note not to forget is that the spell makes Jillian want to help Wanda, not Stanley, Parson, or anyone else at GK. Just Wanda.

    If Jillian thinks that croaking the dwagons helps Wanda, then the spell will push her in that direction, even if it causes Wanda some short-term problems. No height puns intended.

    Ok, one WAY OUT THERE thought that more than likely is wrong. In fact, even I doubt it. It is, however, in the realm of possibility.
    Spoiler
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    Wanda did not cast a suggestion type spell on Jillian. It could be purely a psychological effect (whether Stockholm syndrome or love, friendship, whatever).

    The spell that the Archons detect could be a Love spell cast on behalf of Ansom. Maybe he slipped a love potion into her food when she was giving her report way back on page 8.
    Last edited by fendrin; 2007-09-12 at 05:39 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #277
    Magnificent Boop in the Playground
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    Default Re: Erfworld 76, page 70

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    If Jillian thinks that croaking the dwagons helps Wanda, then the spell will push her in that direction, even if it causes Wanda some short-term problems. No height puns intended.
    If so, it's something she thought of herself just now -- earlier, she wanted to ditch the mission of hunting for the wounded dwagons.

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    If Wanda were trying to get rid of the dwagons to undercut Stanley, it would make sense for her to have given Jillian a suggestion to that effect, in which case she'd have been gung-ho about the hunt (since she'd know that it would benefit both Ansom and Wanda to find and croak the wounded dwagons).

    Another beautiful theory croaked by an ugly fact.
    Last edited by SteveMB; 2007-09-12 at 07:44 PM.

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