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2018-06-04, 06:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Advice on Modifying Skill Focus and Skill Mastery Feats
I'm thinking of modifying the skill focus and skill mastery feats by having the bonus scale based on level, and adding additional abilities so that they can provide more utility, but I need advice as to which modifications would be more beneficial to have first. Here's an example of how I plan to modify the jump skill.
Skill Focus(Jump)
No Req.
+4 bonus to jump skill checks. The bonus increases by 1 at character level 10 and for every 2 levels thereafter.
Jump is always a class skill, any cross-class ranks invested in jump become class ranks retroactively
Skill Mastery(Jump)
Req. 5 ranks in Jump
x10 jump distance. If there is no other movement during the round in which a creature jumps, the distance is no longer limited by movement speed. Alternatively, a creature can use a full-round action to move and jump, allowing for running long jumps.
During the descent of a jump, the creature gains a fly speed equivalent to the height jumped with average maneuverability. This cannot be used to obtain a higher altitude than the apex of a jump, and if the creature runs out of movement while airborn he falls down vertically.
Alternatively the two feats could be modified as such:
Skill Focus(Jump)
No Req.
+4 bonus to jump skill checks. The bonus increases by 1 at character level 10 and for every 2 levels thereafter.
x10 jump distance. If there is no other movement during the round in which a creature jumps, the distance is no longer limited by movement speed. Alternatively, a creature can use a full-round action to move and jump, allowing for running long jumps.
Skill Mastery(Jump)
Req. 5 ranks in Jump
Jump is always a class skill, any cross-class ranks invested in jump become class ranks retroactively
During the descent of a jump, the creature gains a fly speed equivalent to the height jumped with average maneuverability. This cannot be used to obtain a higher altitude than the apex of a jump, and if the creature runs out of movement while airborn he falls down vertically.
Which modification would be more useful?
*Edited for clarity* *Edited the bonus based on replies*Last edited by theblasblas; 2018-06-06 at 11:07 AM.
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2018-06-04, 11:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Advice on Modifying Skill Focus and Skill Mastery Feats
The first one is the best because it can be applied uniformly to all skills.
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2018-06-04, 11:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Advice on Modifying Skill Focus and Skill Mastery Feats
The first one. The second locks cc jumpers to level 10 for the benefit
Also, commenting o the benefit, I hope you're ready for DnD pogo edition, since a 50ft horizontal jump with that feat is DC 10 (with no running start, allowing you to exceed your base move speed)I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.
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2018-06-04, 12:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2018
Re: Advice on Modifying Skill Focus and Skill Mastery Feats
Okay, so it's the first one thanks.
Do you think I should decrease the multiplier or make it require a full round action? Personally, I don't think that it'll become too much of a problem unless everyone has these two feats as there is limited use against someone who doesn't have it except in chasing and running away, and even then it's constrained by terrain. Essentially it's meant to provide more utility through increased maneuverability.
To be honest, this is just another attempt at "Buffing Martials" by letting skills do crazy ****. In that context do you think this example is good enough or is it a waste of two feats?Last edited by theblasblas; 2018-06-04 at 12:25 PM.
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2018-06-04, 04:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Advice on Modifying Skill Focus and Skill Mastery Feats
I think you're just underestimating how absurd a multiplier 10x is.
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2018-06-04, 06:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Advice on Modifying Skill Focus and Skill Mastery Feats
This. Getting a 50 on a jump check at mid-levels is fairly trivial*. Which translates to flying 500' in a single round.
*Example.
7th level Raptoran Barbarian with Haste up. (speed 70)
+16 speed, +10 wings, +7str, 10 ranks, 3 Skill Focus, 2 Tumble synergy. 1d20+48, and it doesn't even have Masterwork Jumping Boots yet, or stances, buff spells, etc.
A Xeph on Burst can do the same thing, with an extra 20' of speed (+8) substituting for the wings (+10).
If you actually try to optimize it a bit, you'll be outranging Dimension Door, every round, without expenditure of resources.Last edited by Elkad; 2018-06-04 at 06:07 PM.
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2018-06-04, 06:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-06-04, 06:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2018
Re: Advice on Modifying Skill Focus and Skill Mastery Feats
It's intentional. This is a feat afterall, a fairly limited resource, outpacing a spell or two isn't bad, especially if you factor in all the optimization that goes into your example, it even requires another spell: Haste. In any case Dimension Door has it's advantages, namely you can take people with you and it can go through walls. Also in your example the jump would be a full round action whereas Dimension Door is a standard action. I'm actually starting to think that x10 isn't enough, but any more would break even MY suspension of disbelief XD
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2018-06-04, 06:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Advice on Modifying Skill Focus and Skill Mastery Feats
Personally, I'd want to model a comparable spell directly, e.g. Jump Mastery would allow you to use jump at will as an Ex effect, with an effective caster level equal to your character level. You would also be counted as always having a running start with no maximum vertical height.
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2018-06-04, 11:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Advice on Modifying Skill Focus and Skill Mastery Feats
Bounding along at 60-100mph all day didn't do that already?
I could deal with it if it had some limits. Superhuman jump then you can't do it again for 3 rounds, or the rest of the encounter, or it fatigues you until you rest for 1 minute, or you can only do it CL/day.
It breaks ranged/skirmish/kiting/flight combat too. "I shoot him from 7 range increments out with my composite longbow". "OK, you hit. He jumps and lands next to you."
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2018-06-04, 11:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Advice on Modifying Skill Focus and Skill Mastery Feats
NOPE. Too binary. It will be useless early and for some skills, and too high later and too good for some other skills. For the most part it will still be a useless feat, and in very rare cases will be used to break things. Then those might get banned, and it'll just be a useless feat again.
Giving benefits besides skills is an idea, except then the skill part is still close to useless and what you're really doing is making a bunch of new feats from scratch. Which you can do without working with skills.
Change skill focus to a flat +4 or +5. Change the double feats to +3/+3 or +4/+4. Allow retraining. Continue to discourage players from using these feats at all, but say they may want them sometimes. Granting them as class skills is fine, even for the double feats. Allowing 3 for the price of 2 for skill focus and matching double feats isn't a bad idea either. Still allow retraining for this deal. Call it a day.Last edited by ericgrau; 2018-06-04 at 11:33 PM.
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2018-06-05, 02:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Advice on Modifying Skill Focus and Skill Mastery Feats
In a world where spellcasters can teleport for miles, cause death with a scream or bend reality? Not really.
I'd say it "balances" it rather than "breaking" it. In combat this simply allows melee characters to reach far away opponents without dying, and without needing magical help. A ranged character doesn't become automatically helpless upon entering melee and can still defend himself, and most likely still managed to get one hit off and hence is still at an advantage. Jumping far ahead of your team is also risky.
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2018-06-05, 09:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Advice on Modifying Skill Focus and Skill Mastery Feats
So what about the other skills?
If I take Skill Mastery:Survival, do I get to read the enemy's character sheet I look at his footprints?
Skill Mastery:Ride changes my horse's speed from feet per round to miles per round? (Better buy it a Necklace of Adaption, accidentally hitting escape velocity and sailing into orbit would be a real hazard)
Skill Mastery:Knowledge(Architecture and Engineering) lets me build the Taj Mahal in an afternoon out of beetle dung and sticks?
Skill Mastery:Listen lets me hear thoughts?
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2018-06-05, 09:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Advice on Modifying Skill Focus and Skill Mastery Feats
This should be one feat. Give the numeric bonus at low levels, then the better bonus at a certain number of ranks. A single digit (until 20th level) bonus to a single skill is not worth a feat.
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2018-06-05, 09:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Advice on Modifying Skill Focus and Skill Mastery Feats
I want to point out that Sleight of Hand already has it's "Mastery" version in 3.5: Master Pickpocket from City of Stormreach. In general I find feats that let you do new things with a skill to be far preferable than one that just gives you a bigger bonus because skills can already be pumped into the stratosphere.
I'd be tempted to just remove listening lorecall and make it a feat sans the insight bonus.
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2018-06-05, 09:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Advice on Modifying Skill Focus and Skill Mastery Feats
I have a homebrew Expert variant prepared that gets Skill Focus as a bonus feat and then grants additional bonuses. Let's see which of the class features can be carved out into feats or pieces thereof...
(low level)
* Existing Skill focus bonus PLUS 1/2 level (round down).
* Counts as having one extra rank in the skill (early entry!)
* Can always take 10
(high level - these would be feats down the chain)
* Takes half time on extended skill checks, but can't reduce them below 1 round. For example, a Master Climber can scale high walls twice as fast, and a Master Crafter can get a day's work done in 4 hours.
* Has an aura granting the base Skill Focus bonus to allies - great for stealth skills.Last edited by Bucky; 2018-06-05 at 09:57 AM.
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2018-06-05, 10:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Advice on Modifying Skill Focus and Skill Mastery Feats
what would it do to diplomacy? a middle level bard could persuade all kings of the world to abdicate to him. actually, one may already do that, depending on how much cheese one allows.
And martials can get by pretty well anyway if they have a party to take care of scry and die stuff. I made the same mistake, trying to fix class imbalance by giving huge boosts to martials (in my case was in the form of crazy overpowered items) and I regretted it.
Fluff-wise, if you want to jump hundreds of meters just call it a supernatural or spell like ability.In memory of Evisceratus: he dreamed of a better world, but he lacked the class levels to make the dream come true.
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2018-06-05, 11:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Advice on Modifying Skill Focus and Skill Mastery Feats
I'm still working it out.
I'm thinking Swim Mastery gives you permanent, non-magical Freedom Of Movement while underwater and a Swim speed equal to your normal mode of movement.
Hide gives you non-magical invisibility until you make an offensive action but someone who makes their Spot check can see you(fluff being you're not really invisible, just unnoticeable)
Move Silently makes you immune to blindsense, blindsight, detect spells and truesight until you make an offensive action but is similarly affected by Listen checks(fluff being you "silence" your aura).
Climb gives you a climb speed equal to your normal mode of movement., and lets you attack with both hands while climbing
Balance halves balance DCs, and lets you fight normally while balancing(can make AOO, and use feats that would normally .
Use Magic Device allows you to make wands, staves and rods(when applicable) misfire with a touch attack, and dispel magic with a touch attack(like how Index from Toaru counters magic without using magic). Either can be ranged for a higher DC.
Appraise lets you identify the functions of a magic item in and out of combat with a swift action, and lets you "fake" the value of items you have the Craft skill for by adding embellishments that make it look more valuable.
Gather information lets you figure out the feats, current HP(and other important information as may be decided by the DM) of a character with a swift action. Also a swift action, it will allow you to know what spells a caster has prepared. DC dependent on enemy HD.
Heal lets you give temporary hp up until the max hp of the character(something like a temporary heal by patching them up), and treat any condition by forcing a saving throw that uses the Heal check. You also automatically stabilize when at -1 hp or below.
I'm also thinking of having the Skill Focus version of the Craft, Perform and Profession skills allow you to pick up an additional sub-skill at ranks 5, 10, 15 and 20.
I'm not sure about the others.
Most of the active abilities are going to have DCs, but I don't know what they're going to be yet. I'm going mostly by rule of cool, and taking inspiration from Wuxia and anime.
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2018-06-05, 11:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Advice on Modifying Skill Focus and Skill Mastery Feats
I'm a big fan of this sort of thing in principle, but putting these abilities behind feats seems unnecessarily restrictive and costly. I think that skill tricks are a better mechanism for this sort of thing.
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2018-06-05, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Advice on Modifying Skill Focus and Skill Mastery Feats
I feel like there was a feat that let you do this with Sense Motive myself, though not to that degree.
And the first step of buffing skills in 3.5 is to take the skill system from PF, getting rid of the whole 1/2 rank nonsense with cross-class skills and condensing some skills together."And if you don't, the consequences will be dire!"
"What? They'll have three extra hit dice and a rend attack?"
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2018-06-05, 11:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Advice on Modifying Skill Focus and Skill Mastery Feats
Hmm, really? I think as it is now the benefits are at the point where it'd be too much for a single feat, but not enough for two feats. Due to what ericgrau said, I'm thinking of making the bonus be "+4 bonus to jump. The bonus increases by 1 at character level 10 and for every 2 levels thereafter" instead. Maybe instead of making them one skill I could add an additional benefit to the Skill Focus feat? Always allowed to Take 10 and allowed to Take 20 if it's a skill affected by Rogue's Skill Mastery, maybe? What would you suggest?
Well, another reason why I'm doing this is to make Martials more fun, make them less bland to play, give them something to do that others can't. Fluffwise, I like to think that there are characters in the DnD-verse that are just so strong or skilled that they're able to do crazy stuff without it being magic.
I think that high level play itself being defined by scry and die is something that's "wrong" in the DnD system. Of course this is just personal opinion, and I'm not saying that there's a wrong way to play, but I prefer games that don't rely on such stuff, and that's why I'm trying to think of way to change up gameplay.
Anyway, the only way I think that this Jumping skill can break the game is if the character who had it kept jumping on enemies like a cross between Mario and a Dragoon. However, damage by falling objects, like Gate, Wish, Miracle, Astral Projection and, in my opinion, most Divination spells, is something that should be nerfed anyway in most games.
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2018-06-05, 11:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Advice on Modifying Skill Focus and Skill Mastery Feats
On the other hand, how do you think monks will feel about your making their movement speed irrelevant? What about mounted fighters—will they be happy that the foot soldiers are moving faster than a mount at full charge?
Rhymes with "Protracted."
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2018-06-05, 12:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Advice on Modifying Skill Focus and Skill Mastery Feats
I personally prefer there being more skills, and just giving each class more skillpoints. Climb and Jump feel far too distinct for me to lump them into acrobatics, and so do Hide and Move Silently. They're thematically very similar, but.... uhm, "physically" very different, I guess?
I like how skill tricks are earned... but the limit of once per encounter feels far too limiting to me. Though that may simply be because the DM I'm most experienced with likes long encounters with large numbers of weak mooks, and I personally prefer those kinds of encounters as well.
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2018-06-05, 12:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Advice on Modifying Skill Focus and Skill Mastery Feats
How do they already feel about casters with Fly or Expeditious Retreat spells? Kidding aside. They have greater flexibility in movement than a jumping character, and not everyone is going to be taking Jump Mastery. The main benefit of mounted combat is in charging and ride by attacks. In a way their already increased movement just means that they're free to take other feats. Letting a chain of two feats subsume a single aspect of another class isn't something too worrisome. Monk is already a broken class anyway, in a bad way, and needs to be fixed in its own right.
Another homebrew fix we use at our table is to scale x-foot-step by movement speed. Where x=movementspeed/6 or an extra square for every 30 feet of movement speed. Someone at this forum suggested it should be every 30 above 20 instead.
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2018-06-05, 01:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Advice on Modifying Skill Focus and Skill Mastery Feats
I suggest looking at Pathfinder.
No use in reinventing the wheel. For the fourth time.
Also keep in mind this little sentence in the Jump description:
Distance moved by jumping is counted against your normal maximum movement in a round.Last edited by martixy; 2018-06-05 at 01:40 PM.
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2018-06-05, 01:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-06-05, 04:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Advice on Modifying Skill Focus and Skill Mastery Feats
That sentence in the Jump description is precisely why this is a part of Jump Master: "If there is no other movement during the round in which a creature jumps, the distance is no longer limited by movement speed. Alternatively, a creature can use a full-round action to move and jump, allowing for running long jumps."
In any case the skill modification in Pathfinder isn't strong enough in my opinion, in fact they mostly just combined some skills and changed up some rules, they didn't really make these skill stronger such that they can be comparable to spells.
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2018-06-05, 04:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Advice on Modifying Skill Focus and Skill Mastery Feats
I think the real problem here that people have issue with isn't quite that you can jump the equivalent of a teleport each round, but that you can do it *at will*, which only really happens with primal scholar *cheese*.
So you're jumping around now that Usain Bolt is holding your ale, but what if the supposed wizard you're comparing yourself against decides he could just hitch a ride with you on his back, stops preparing teleport, and instead now prepares an empowered fireball?
Checkmate.
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2018-06-05, 05:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Advice on Modifying Skill Focus and Skill Mastery Feats
Then you're doing teamwork, and you finally have a role in the group other than "whack it with a big stick"? Anyway, this is more comparable to Dimension Door than Teleport, the distance of teleport is measured in hundreds of miles.
Being better than Wizards at one thing among the 99 things they can do for two feats isn't overpowered at all.
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2018-06-05, 05:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Advice on Modifying Skill Focus and Skill Mastery Feats
-Dimension Door doesn't require line of effect, while jumping... duh
-Then wouldn't it also be teamwork for the fighter to whack the enemy with a big stick while the wizard teleports the fighter? Not spending two feats and a bunch of skill ranks could net the fighter shock trooper or combat brute as well.
Being better than Wizards at one thing among the 99 things they can do for two feats isn't overpowered at all.
I don't want to rant too much, but I'd draw the equivalency between characters doing stuff like this without end to an arcane swordsage.