'Dungeons & Dragons' to Announce New Settings for Fifth Edition Later This Year

[EvilAnagram]

Greyhawk has Murlynd, which is a strike against Greyhawk.

On the plus side, Greyhawk doesn't have:

Drizzt,

Elminster,

or the

Harpers

Nentir Vale is looking better and better to me.

Nentir Vale has something that few other settings bother with: empty spaces to fill in. In a game about exploration, that is incredibly important.

Also, cities of ghost dwarves!

[Glorthindel]

The real question is: Why use 5e WD&D?

For, what compared to a lot of D&D would be called "low fantasy" why run a "Vikings vs. Morlocks" type scenerio with 5e when other systems could work?

Of the top of my head, besides old TD&D, a kinda-sorta-but-not-quite "retro-clone" like Lamentations of the Flame Princess could work, as could a BRP game like Mythic Iceland, or Stormbringer, and even Pathfinder could work. So what would make 5e a better choice, especially when I would red line a lot of it (no Tabaxi Bladesingers!)?

My game of choice when I want to go a bit more low fantasy is WFRP. Sure, the Warhammer world can be as high fantasy as any other, but the RPG does tends to stick to the street level, down in the gutter struggles of the more average man (and halfling).

The new edition on the horizon is definitely causing me sleepless nights.

[Anonymouswizard]

So... D&D is weird, depending on the setting, with its whole occult underground of wizards driven to achieve mad insane things. To the extent that 5E has a meta-plot, it's driven entirely by cults and other associations of mad lunatics driven to achieve dangerous occult goals. Princes of the Apocalypse is literally just that in campaign form. Out of the Abyss is about dealing with the fallout after they succeed. And these organizations may not take center stage in other adventures but they're all tied together. Meanwhile, "I'm an intelligent psychic blueberry muffin" isn't weird; it's obtuse and silly.

Okay, half the point was meant to be implying that this is going to be personal, hence the muffin. But honestly, Occult Underground was supposed to point out that, no matter how strange D&D wizards can be, they won't be as weird as ones in a setting where being a wizard makes you automatically a part of the occult underground.

The other problem with weird is that it, well, changes. I'm so used to apocalyptic cults in fantasy that they feel normal compared to the crazy group of wizards attempting to summon socialism to the realm (to take a relatively mundane example that is bizarre). I think we should agree to disagree on this point though.

I'll posit that the dividing line between weird and silly you're trying to identify is about storytelling function. Weird is a category of story. Silly is an occurrence, however frequent, unrelated to larger themes. Players struggling against a rising tide of semidivine madness in a reality fraying at the edges is weird. Player is a chicken slaad sand witch in a game about rescuing a princess from a dragon is silly.

That makes sense as well.


EDIT: I honestly would love to see Nentir Vale updated to 5e. It's close enough in tone to 4e, it can mention the power sources fluff and how Clerics/Paladins and Druids/Rangers use different types of magic, and would be a fun setting to explore.

[Naanomi]

Nentir Vale has something that few other settings bother with: empty spaces to fill in. In a game about exploration, that is incredibly important.

Mystara was a lot of empty space as well... in a lot of ways it is similar to Nentir Vale (an empty setting filled in mostly with specific adventure paths)

[Nifft]

Dragonlance: has issues with licensing. Also basically unknown to modern gamers. With it's almost cartoonish alignment issues (and kender), it would require significant alterations to make fit. Also not too friendly to cross-over (pop in and pop out), as it's a setting that rewards deep dives.

Greyhawk: What does this do that FR doesn't? They're both generic, kitchen-sink settings. Only upside is that Greyhawk is a little less famous NPC heavy(?) Also has no name recognition among non-devotees.

Eberron: Has quite a following, but it's thematically very attached to 3e. Especially in the easy access to magical items. The strong fan-base is also a problem (as well as a benefit)--they react volcanically to any deviations from the "one true Eberron."

Planescape: This is a weird one. To really import Planescape in anything other than name and very high-level concept, you'd have to fix the cosmology to a very alignment-centric model. Has a lot of assumptions about the nature of things that would cause friction.

Spelljammer: This I could see working ok. A bit wild and weird, but otherwise not bad. Still has no name recognition.

Others? I don't know enough about any of the others to comment.

If they revamp any existing setting, I'd rather that they do it in the "it was always this way" reboot, rather than a FR-style update event. That way, you're hanging onto the name and the basic premises, but signal that you're going to make major changes if necessary.

Dragonlance - was 2e tropes played straight & honest. It doesn't age well because those tropes have largely been outgrown.

Greyhawk - actually has a lot to offer, but that's in terms of substance and process rather than marketing material. From a marketing perspective, you're right -- it's got a lot of visually similarity to FR, and that's a detriment since FR has already covered that marketing niche. What does Greyhawk offer?
- Blank spots on the map. Heck, the largest named region is the Sea of Dust, a literal post-apocalyptic wasteland full of the treasures of an evil Magocracy.
- High-level NPCs who are targets, not parents or managers. Greyhawk NPCs are not watching over you, not directing you, and you don't have to obey them. They're busy with their own stuff, or they're a problem and someone should do something about them.
- Named spots on the map aren't expended novel plots noted for nostalgia, they're mysterious hooks about which nobody knows the truth. Most of the the named sites are more "blank spots".
- Well-established precedent for PCs leaving their mark on the setting. Melf, Rary, Otto, Otiluke, Mordenkeinen, Bigby - these were just PCs who invented spells. Your PC can do the same thing. Your PC's name can become part of the setting's lore. (I've done this in my own games.)
- Huge swaths of the setting are "militantly neutral". They aren't evil, but they aren't going to go out of their way to be good. They're just trying to get by, and they're heavily armed & organized so they do a pretty decent job of getting by most of the time. The setting includes cosmic good & evil, but most people are neither.
- Gods are mysterious. They're real -- some ascended as mortals and they're the best documented, since they spent a lot of time on Oerth as mortals -- but mainly they don't interfere, don't lay down plot-rails for you to follow, and don't demand that you pick exactly one of them. In setting, religions syncretism is a valid thing, and you don't see a single uniform pantheon as you cross the Flanaess. The people in the setting ponder the truth of gods even as they know gods are real, because the setting allows that much mystery & wonder.
- WEIRD STUFF HAPPENS. Spaceships crash, go find ray-guns and power armor which will work for a while (until the batteries run out). Mountains populated by strange crystalline hive-minds make contact. Dark elves entice giants to attack. Some golems are actually ancient robots, and the lightning artifact you need to complete the quest is being used as a power source for an alien's life-support system. There's an isolated valley where dinosaurs still roam. Greyhawk isn't a harmonious kitchen sink, it's a sink where genres are actively battling each other for survival.

Eberron - takes a lot of the good stuff from Greyhawk (like named sites which are blank spots, preserving the mystery of the divine, militant neutrals, well-mapped blank spots, NPCs who don't overpower PCs, no popular novelizations, etc.) and adds a more modern look & feel. Plus, it's done a better job of isolating the myriad genres which are supported.
- Want to be a neutral greedy capitalist? Great, here's a Dragonmarked House trade war adventure.
- Want to save the world? Great, here's a Daelkyr / Overlord / Quori / (etc.) invasion adventure.
- Want to be a ruin-delving murder-hobo? Great, here's a bunch of ruins from the Last War, and a bunch of ruins from the Daelkyr invasion, and here's Xen'drik.
- Want to be a film-noir detective? Great, here's a bunch of cities full of intrigue (basically every detailed city, some exceptions exist).
- Want to be a secret agent on the national scale? Great, here's Five Nations which don't like each other much, or here's the whole continent of Sarlona, or maybe you're a (gnome/changeling/dragon agent) and you're spying on everyone.
- Want to be Indiana Jones? Great, you're fighting totally-not-Nazis (Inspired / Dragon Below cultists / Emerald Claw / etc.) on a train, and the MacGuffin probably does belong in a museum.
- Want to be an outsider searching for the meaning of your unnatural life, while fighting prejudice? Great, here's your Warforged / Shifter / Daelkyr Half-Blood / Kalishtar / aberrant Dragonmark bearer / etc.

Planescape - If my memory serves, the thing about Planescape is not so much alignment is true as it is belief shapes reality. What I recall from e.g. Planescape:Torment is that changes in local belief results in changed local planar geography. So maybe the current arrangement by alignment is just how belief has shaped the current planes, and a sufficiently persuasive argument could re-shape the planes tomorrow. If that's accurate, it gives a lot more leeway for weirdness & mystery & wonder.

I totally forgot Dark Sun and Ravenloft. Mystara and Birthright I don't know enough about to comment.

Dark Sun: This one has potential, but is odd for a drop-in, drop-out adventure (due to Althas's closed-off nature). Very different thematics. Would be interesting to see how it transfers.

Ravenloft: They've already hit one sub-area here (Barovia). I could see this as a series of adventures, but I think its unlikely for this publication (because they did CoS not too long ago and this might not count as a "new setting").

Mystara - IIRC it's got a thing about how gods are all just ascended mortals, and that's cool because it gives a career goal for high-level PCs.

Dark Sun - Awesome in my nostalgic memories, but rather self-contained. Excellent if you like wilderness survival in the desert, but 5e seems to have removed a lot of the resource-tracking which that sort of adventure needs. I think it would require a significant revision to the 5e rules just in terms of genre support, and that's before we look at what's necessary to make Defiler / Preserver a meaningful decision for PCs.

Ravenloft - This can be supported out of the box. It's also genre-limited, but the genre is more friendly to 5e, since horror and combat go well together. Heh, and the short rest mechanic of Warlocks is great in a horror game where you might not get 8 hours of peace regularly -- it's almost like the Dark Powers want you to make pacts.

Nentir Vale has something that few other settings bother with: empty spaces to fill in. In a game about exploration, that is incredibly important.

Also, cities of ghost dwarves!

Mystara was a lot of empty space as well... in a lot of ways it is similar to Nentir Vale (an empty setting filled in mostly with specific adventure paths)

I suspect that every setting which isn't heavily novelized has this perk.

Greyhawk and Eberron certainly do share it.

[mgshamster]

Planescape - If my memory serves, the thing about Planescape is not so much alignment is true as it is belief shapes reality. What I recall from e.g. Planescape:Torment is that changes in local belief results in changed local planar geography. So maybe the current arrangement by alignment is just how belief has shaped the current planes, and a sufficiently persuasive argument could re-shape the planes tomorrow. If that's accurate, it gives a lot more leeway for weirdness & mystery & wonder.

That is exactly right.

[EvilAnagram]

I suspect that every setting which isn't heavily novelized has this perk.

Greyhawk and Eberron certainly do share it.

That's a good point. I think the key differences in these classic fantasy settings are in the fundamental assumptions of the settings. In Greyhawk, you usually end up fighting against evil to preserve the kingdoms of good and decent people. In Nentir Vale, the kingdoms of good and decent people have fallen, and you're just trying to keep the remnants alive. In Mystara, there is treasure out there!

Obviously, there are exceptions, but they tend to follow those themes.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

That's a good point. I think the key differences in these classic fantasy settings are in the fundamental assumptions of the settings. In Greyhawk, you usually end up fighting against evil to preserve the kingdoms of good and decent people. In Nentir Vale, the kingdoms of good and decent people have fallen, and you're just trying to keep the remnants alive. In Mystara, there is treasure out there!

Obviously, there are exceptions, but they tend to follow those themes.

Dragonlance is in the Greyhawk style, but I think there's a major exception - the existing kingdoms aren't really filled with good or decent people. The active intervention of the good and decent is necessary, because the people are kind of jerks, and they'll fall for whatever snake oil evil is selling every single time. There's more moral nuance than that setting gets credit for because of its assumption that the people are fallen.

[DanyBallon]

That's a good point. I think the key differences in these classic fantasy settings are in the fundamental assumptions of the settings. In Greyhawk, you usually end up fighting against evil to preserve the kingdoms of good and decent people. In Nentir Vale, the kingdoms of good and decent people have fallen, and you're just trying to keep the remnants alive. In Mystara, there is treasure out there!

Obviously, there are exceptions, but they tend to follow those themes.

While this is true, what I like from Greyhawk, is that good nation can and will go at war against other good nation as well because they have different view on something, or just because a nation wants ressources from it's neighbour, just like it happen in our world. While Greyhawk have as much fantastic elements as FR, the feel is closer to a medieval fantasy setting.

[Nifft]

In Greyhawk, you usually end up fighting against evil to preserve the kingdoms of good and decent people.

In Greyhawk, the kings can be the most evil things around, and someone ought to do something about them.

The people might be decent, but they're generally neutral rather than good -- they're not cosmopolitan, they're not accepting of outsiders, they're not tolerant of strange religions or weird magic -- they're just people.

The natives who have been marginalized were not particularly noble savages. They were horrific necromancers and godly druids. The immigrants displacing them weren't particularly noble either -- they're either evil wizards and their pawns, or mercenary warrior-clans which rose up as robber-barons and then tyrant-kings. There are different natives in the southern jungles, but they're not noble either -- they're the ones using blood-magic.

You can ignore those gritty elements, and play it as a cartoon-morality heroic high fantasy romp if you want, but that's NOT the setting's default mode.

Paladins and Rangers were rare -- you had to roll really well -- while Thieves were common.

The default mode is that you're a treasure-hunting grave-robber.

[EvilAnagram]

In Greyhawk, the kings can be the most evil things around, and someone ought to do something about them.

The people might be decent, but they're generally neutral rather than good -- they're not cosmopolitan, they're not accepting of outsiders, they're not tolerant of strange religions or weird magic -- they're just people.

The natives who have been marginalized were not particularly noble savages. They were horrific necromancers and godly druids. The immigrants displacing them weren't particularly noble either -- they're either evil wizards and their pawns, or mercenary warrior-clans which rose up as robber-barons and then tyrant-kings. There are different natives in the southern jungles, but they're not noble either -- they're the ones using blood-magic.

You can ignore those gritty elements, and play it as a cartoon-morality heroic high fantasy romp if you want, but that's NOT the setting's default mode.

Paladins and Rangers were rare -- you had to roll really well -- while Thieves were common.

The default mode is that you're a treasure-hunting grave-robber.

I didn't mean to give the impression that it was cartoonish because you're right about the moral nuance. However, the wild lands that surrounded these nuanced civilizations were horrific places filled with evil that absolutely put the selfishness of civilization to shame. At its best (in my opinion), it's a setting in which the truly heroic desperately try to pull kingdoms away from their selfish desires to face more dire threats. The grit of the setting did a good job of highlighting your heroics.

Similarly, it's not technically correct to say that the good kingdoms of the Nentir Vale have fallen, as the tiefling empire was blatantly evil, and the other fallen civilizations were morally grey.

I suppose it's more accurate to say that Greyhawk is a setting in which civilization is under constant threat from outside forces, and it's often the heroes' job to save it, whereas the civilizations of the Nentir Vale have fallen, and you're left in the remnants.

[Nifft]

I didn't mean to give the impression that it was cartoonish because you're right about the moral nuance. However, the wild lands that surrounded these nuanced civilizations were horrific places filled with evil that absolutely put the selfishness of civilization to shame. At its best (in my opinion), it's a setting in which the truly heroic desperately try to pull kingdoms away from their selfish desires to face more dire threats. The grit of the setting did a good job of highlighting your heroics.

Similarly, it's not technically correct to say that the good kingdoms of the Nentir Vale have fallen, as the tiefling empire was blatantly evil, and the other fallen civilizations were morally grey.

I suppose it's more accurate to say that Greyhawk is a setting in which civilization is under constant threat from outside forces, and it's often the heroes' job to save it, whereas the civilizations of the Nentir Vale have fallen, and you're left in the remnants.

I like that comparison, and yeah Nentir Vale ("PoL-land") seemed like a really neat way to do a post-apoc rebuilding-from-the-ashes sort of game.

I also loved the fallen empire of the Tieflings. That's just such a great Sword & Sorcery element. OF COURSE the evil infernal empire would self-destruct, leaving ruins full of phat loot and horrors of another age. It's so brilliant that it seems obvious in retrospect.


Regarding Greyhawk's morality & civilization, it's true that the PC-race states faced external threats -- but they also faced internal threats. The Great Kingdom of Aerdy fell to the escalating infighting between its royal and/or noble houses, and now it's gone, split into several different states with separate governments.

Many of the "good" starting locations were actually independent city-states with mercantile interests.

While this is true, what I like from Greyhawk, is that good nation can and will go at war against other good nation as well because they have different view on something, or just because a nation wants ressources from it's neighbour, just like it happen in our world. While Greyhawk have as much fantastic elements as FR, the feel is closer to a medieval fantasy setting.

Yeah.

Good and evil aren't monolithic, and they can conflict with each other, and most people are neutral and they also conflict with each other -- you have a setting where sometimes the most good can be done by playing politics & cozying up to evil so you can point them where you want, or because you can't easily replace an evil or dark-neutral ruler so maybe you should try to social-fu that person into a better ruler.

Or where you don't save the king, you become the king, because honestly the other candidates don't look so great.

[EvilAnagram]

I like that comparison, and yeah Nentir Vale ("PoL-land") seemed like a really neat way to do a post-apoc rebuilding-from-the-ashes sort of game.

Now that I think about it, it's a bit like Wheel of Time in that respect. First there was Civilization, far-reaching and secure. Then it fell violently as hidden evils tore apart everything that had been built. Eventually, a Kingdom led by a Great King rose from the chaos, binding the remnants of Civilization together once more. However, the Kingdom also fell long ago, and now people live in isolated towns, with even the most powerful nations barely able to control the land surrounding their capitals.

[PhoenixPhyre]

From what I understand (and was responding to), the "new setting" will be similar to CoS, in that you'll pop in for an adventure path and then rejoin...wherever you were.

From that perspective, certain otherwise-good settings start to not be as interesting. Greyhawk, from an outsider's perspective, seems primarily different in tone from FR. That's not something that comes across well under those conditions. Eberron and Althas are too closed off. Nentir Vale (the original un-setting) is great for extended campaigns (my setting started as a NV ripoff), but doesn't catch my attention for a drop-in adventure.

I'm guessing something related to Planescape or Spelljammer. Or something out of left field entirely.

[Beleriphon]

Not sure if its been mentioned yet, but what's the black obelisks in the adventures thus far? Some are important, some aren't, some are ruined, but they exist in each and every adventure path. Mearls' has been questioned on it and said he can't say anything, so there's something going on there. What do black obelisks have to do with different campaign settings?

[JackPhoenix]

Snip

I admit, while Greyhawk was the part of my first encounter with D&D, I'm not very familiar with it (not to the extent I'm familiar with Dragonlance, thanks to the novels, or FR, no thanks to general information osmosis caused by it being pretty much omnipresent anywhere D&D gets mentioned), but I always considered it more of a high fantasy setting, similar to FR.

What you post makes Greyhawk's classification as sword & sorcery setting used in DMG and... some other 5e book... make much more sense.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm tired of weirdos, special snowflakes and saving the world. Gimme a sword or an axe, a shield, some wilderness to explore and a bunch of orcs in an underground ruin whose layout doesn't make any sense, and I'm happy.

If we can manage to find a way to bushwhack and slay Drzzt ... do we get bonus XP?

[2D8HP]

If we can manage to find a way to bushwhack and slay Drzzt ... do we get bonus XP?

So very down for this!

[ZorroGames]

If we can manage to find a way to bushwhack and slay Drzzt ... do we get bonus XP?

One can only hope...

[Anonymouswizard]

If we can manage to find a way to bushwhack and slay Drzzt ... do we get bonus XP?

If somebody from WotC is reading this, please make this into a module!

[ErHo]

If all the BS that was sent Drizzt's way havnt killed him, then what makes you think a party could in a module?

If its a 20+ campaign then I'd say you have a shot

[JackPhoenix]

If somebody from WotC is reading this, please make this into a module!

Die Drizzt die!?
Against the Drizzt?
Tomb of Drizzt?
Dead Drizzts?

[Beleriphon]

If somebody from WotC is reading this, please make this into a module!

There was some kind of official scenario for 4E that had you fight Drizzt. I don't remember the details, but I know it was a beast of a fight since Drizzt was statted up as a level 15 or 16 Solo creature.

[Nifft]

From what I understand (and was responding to), the "new setting" will be similar to CoS, in that you'll pop in for an adventure path and then rejoin...wherever you were.

From that perspective, certain otherwise-good settings start to not be as interesting. Greyhawk, from an outsider's perspective, seems primarily different in tone from FR. That's not something that comes across well under those conditions. Eberron and Althas are too closed off. Nentir Vale (the original un-setting) is great for extended campaigns (my setting started as a NV ripoff), but doesn't catch my attention for a drop-in adventure.

I'm guessing something related to Planescape or Spelljammer. Or something out of left field entirely.

Planescape and Eberron both seem attention-grabbing, and both seem visually distinct.

IMHO, Planescape seems most likely.

I admit, while Greyhawk was the part of my first encounter with D&D, I'm not very familiar with it (not to the extent I'm familiar with Dragonlance, thanks to the novels, or FR, no thanks to general information osmosis caused by it being pretty much omnipresent anywhere D&D gets mentioned), but I always considered it more of a high fantasy setting, similar to FR.

What you post makes Greyhawk's classification as sword & sorcery setting used in DMG and... some other 5e book... make much more sense.

A lot of early Greyhawk stuff was even more S&S, and a lot of that stuff went right over my head until I read up on what distinguishes S&S from high fantasy.

FR seems to consider itself a generic fantasy setting, but it's not, and that's pernicious. FR is very specific and highly opinionated, especially on magic & metaphysics. That's fine for FR in itself, but it's ugly to see that specific opinion forced over all other settings.

Greyhawk is a bit more generic, but it's not really trying to be generic. It's a setting where Mordenkeinen did a thing, and now that's Mordenkeinen's Mighty Thing which you too can use. It's a setting built up on the adventures of PCs just like yours, but now they're either dead or evil and it's your turn to do a thing -- you can get the setting to include Jack's Mighty Thing for future PCs to use.

[War_lord]

Not sure if its been mentioned yet, but what's the black obelisks in the adventures thus far? Some are important, some aren't, some are ruined, but they exist in each and every adventure path. Mearls' has been questioned on it and said he can't say anything, so there's something going on there. What do black obelisks have to do with different campaign settings?

Could be Kyuss related maybe? An early AL module had it the Kyuss, the Worm that Walks was imprisoned in a Dark Obelisk, shards of which now cover the multiverse. But I don't know how "canon" AL stuff is to the greater product.

[2D8HP]

Die Drizzt die!?
Against the Drizzt?
Tomb of Drizzt?
Dead Drizzts?

In Search of Drizzt's spleen.

[KorvinStarmast]

In Search of Drizzt's spleen.

Mielikki Mourns


----------------------------------------

Once again, props to RA Salvatore for writing a successful series. That can be tough to do. I enjoyed quite a few of the paperbacks I bought and read. Fast reads. Easy reads.

I guess that at some point, I just had to stop reading because all of the narrative tension was gone, for me. In the first series (Crystal Shard) and in the first Menzo series, at least there was some tension.

[2D8HP]

Mielikki Mourns


----------------------------------------

Once again, props to RA Salvatore for writing a successful series. That can be tough to do. I enjoyed quite a few of the paperbacks I bought and read. Fast reads. Easy reads.

I guess that at some point, I just had to stop reading because all of the narrative tension was gone, for me. In the first series (Crystal Shard) and in the first Menzo series, at least there was some tension.

You're far more patent than I am.

I just read a few pages of Homeland, but I did find the comic book

Spoiler: Depiction

Show

more interesting, as it provided details (such as metal bustiers, high boots, and sleeves) that I didn't find in the text, and you just need those details for a full coherent cultural view.

[War_lord]

I don't get the piling on R.A. Salvatore.

Look, the Drizzt books are cheap action-adventure fantasy genre paperbacks, and the main audience is teens. It's genre fiction aimed at teen nerds who haven't grown into reading more... demanding work yet. It's par for course in that genre and price point, and Dragonlance was doing that for D&D before the Forgotten Realms was even a thing. I'm sure Mr. Salvatore knows exactly the quality of the work he's putting out and who his market is. And the sales numbers don't lie about the effectiveness of staying in his wheelhouse. I respect the guy for making a living off of something cool that probably doesn't require a huge effort on his part.

[Beleriphon]

Could be Kyuss related maybe? An early AL module had it the Kyuss, the Worm that Walks was imprisoned in a Dark Obelisk, shards of which now cover the multiverse. But I don't know how "canon" AL stuff is to the greater product.

I don't think it is, I suspect its probably some kind of homage or inside joke of the designers or some obscure callback they liked. It isn't just the AL stuff as such, its the actual hardback adventure paths that feature the black obelisks.