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    Default In Russia's space graveyard, locals scavenge fallen spacecraft for profit

    People of Central Asia who put up with space debris constantly falling out of the sky, and even make their living out of the scrap of fallen rockets.

    How is this allowed?

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cr.../#.Wxn1QDQvzIW

    How is this a thing?

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    Default Re: In Russia's space graveyard, locals scavenge fallen spacecraft for profit

    Which bit, the scavenging bit or the spaceship parts falling onto populated(ish) areas bit? Either way the cynical answer is the same: who's going to hold them accountable for it?
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    Default Re: In Russia's space graveyard, locals scavenge fallen spacecraft for profit

    Quote Originally Posted by Zurvan View Post
    People of Central Asia who put up with space debris constantly falling out of the sky, and even make their living out of the scrap of fallen rockets.

    How is this allowed?

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cr.../#.Wxn1QDQvzIW

    How is this a thing?
    Well, the reason the Russians did it originally is because their spaceport is located in Baikonur in Central Asia.

    While rockets launched from NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida are able to drop their boosters relatively harmlessly into the Atlantic ocean, Baikonur is about as as far from the ocean as it is possible to get. That means the discarded stages of Russian rockets tumble back down on dry land.
    I assume the rocket launches were originally located in Central Asia not only because it was difficult for western intelligence to get HUMINT observers on site, but because it is many , many hours away from the US and American bombers. Back in the 1950s when these decisions were made, ICBMs were still on the drawing board; but the Russians had reason to fear the Americans might launch an attack with nuclear-armed manned aircraft. Such aircraft would have come over the pole and west from Alaska.

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    Putting the base in Central Asia means several hours of warning from the time we penetrated their airspace to actual time on target -- more than enough time to volley off everything they had.

    That's why they did it. No doubt there has been some negotiations between the successor states as to allow Russia to continue operating the spaceport, which means Central Asian government officials are being paid off.

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    Last edited by pendell; 2018-06-08 at 10:50 AM.
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    Default Re: In Russia's space graveyard, locals scavenge fallen spacecraft for profit

    The alternative is dropping them into the ocean.

    Let's approach it as a risk-reward analysis. The population density of the Netherlands is almost 500 people/km^2. If they'd aim their crashing rockets there most of them probably wouldn't hit a person, it's not that densely populated, but after a few tries they would hit some kind of building, maybe a cow, and eventually you'd expect to hit some kind of populated neighborhood. That's kind of a problem. On the plus side there's this metal you can scavenge and sell. If a spacecraft lands near you you only have to share it with a few hundred to a few thousand other people who also live sort of near. If the government claims them and distributes the profits it might be even less worth it. So it's not a good deal. The region in the article has a population density of 2.23 /km^2, over 200 times less than in the Netherlands. So the odds of hitting something important is much smaller, and there's maybe a few dozen people with any sort of salvage claim. That might honestly be worth it. The chance of any individual house getting hit is about the same, there's just a lot less houses which lowers the total hit chance, but the total profit is the same in both examples, so the profit per person is much higher in Altai.
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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: In Russia's space graveyard, locals scavenge fallen spacecraft for profit

    This sounds like a premise to use as the beginning of a sci-fi adventure.

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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: In Russia's space graveyard, locals scavenge fallen spacecraft for profit

    At least it's no longer the era of the USSR.

    Because back then, in Soviet Russia's space graveyard, fallen spacecraft scavenged locals for profit.



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    Default Re: In Russia's space graveyard, locals scavenge fallen spacecraft for profit

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    The alternative is dropping them into the ocean.
    It isn't that simple. You mostly want to to fire rockets due East, plus whatever angle needed due to your latitude. There's also the issue of polar orbits, where you really want to fire due South (North technically works, but is avoided as that looks exactly like an ICBM on other country's RADAR).

    So you want to fire from the East coast, with a clear shot both Northeast and South. You also want to launch as far South as you can (this is mostly critical in geocentric orbits that want to go around the Equator), fixing the inclination of a satellite is *expensive*.

    Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk might have worked: it is in Russia, it is on the right coast, and appears to have the right available lines clear. It might not be as far South as Baikonur (it looks about even), since Russia doesn't launch over China it can probably launch into lower altitudes. At the time it was established, the USSR was probably far happier with the locals scavenging parts than the US Navy.

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    Default Re: In Russia's space graveyard, locals scavenge fallen spacecraft for profit

    Quote Originally Posted by Zurvan View Post
    People of Central Asia who put up with space debris constantly falling out of the sky, and even make their living out of the scrap of fallen rockets.

    How is this allowed?

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cr.../#.Wxn1QDQvzIW

    How is this a thing?
    All I know, is that if one of the scavengers turns out to be an attractive young female who's lost her parents, is dreaming of becoming a pilot, and exhibits amazing feats of skill in disciplines she's never tried before, I'm paying for a hit on her.
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    Default Re: In Russia's space graveyard, locals scavenge fallen spacecraft for profit

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    I assume the rocket launches were originally located in Central Asia not only because it was difficult for western intelligence to get HUMINT observers on site, but because it is many , many hours away from the US and American bombers. Back in the 1950s when these decisions were made, ICBMs were still on the drawing board; but the Russians had reason to fear the Americans might launch an attack with nuclear-armed manned aircraft. Such aircraft would have come over the pole and west from Alaska.
    Additionally, a more southern position makes your options for orbital parameters a lot easier--the US didn't construct its main orbital launch facility on the coast of Florida just for the balmy weather. Without making expensive adjustments to the vehicle's flight path, the orbit of a terrestrially-launched spacecraft will always pass over the launch site's latitude, and launching eastward lets the rocket work with the Earth's rotation to achieve orbit rather than against it. You could sequester a launch facility somewhere in Siberia, but you'd have to be content with your spacecraft only making near-polar orbits.

    The USSR couldn't easily launch into the Pacific because their coastline was too close to Japan--launches from there would have been too easy for the US (and Japan) to spy on, and too likely to set off an international incident with each test launch.
    Last edited by Mando Knight; 2018-06-12 at 02:55 AM.

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    Default Re: In Russia's space graveyard, locals scavenge fallen spacecraft for profit

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    Additionally, a more southern position makes your options for orbital parameters a lot easier.
    Which is why ESA launches from like French Guyana. Though probably also a concession to France.

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    Default Re: In Russia's space graveyard, locals scavenge fallen spacecraft for profit

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    Additionally, a more southern position makes your options for orbital parameters a lot easier--the US didn't construct its main orbital launch facility on the coast of Florida just for the balmy weather. Without making expensive adjustments to the vehicle's flight path, the orbit of a terrestrially-launched spacecraft will always pass over the launch site's latitude, and launching eastward lets the rocket work with the Earth's rotation to achieve orbit rather than against it. You could sequester a launch facility somewhere in Siberia, but you'd have to be content with your spacecraft only making near-polar orbits.

    The USSR couldn't easily launch into the Pacific because their coastline was too close to Japan--launches from there would have been too easy for the US (and Japan) to spy on, and too likely to set off an international incident with each test launch.
    Hawaii is much further south than KSC, and gives you plenty of places that can launch in all direction (the US needs Vandenburg in California to launch South for polar orbits). Unfortunately, while Hawaii may have had a congressional delegation by the time launch locations were established, they had almost no seniority and couldn't bring home the pork. Galveston, Texas would presumably also make a great launch site, presumably that is why mission control is located in nearby Houston as a concession. I think Spacex is planing on building a launch site "nearby", possibly Brownsville.

    I'm guessing that secrecy was the prime reason the Soviets chose Baikonur, they even named it after a place something like 100 miles away to throw off the CIA/NSA (as far as the rest of the world is concerned the launch area is now "Baikonur" and the not-so-nearby town will have to deal with it). Note that any "southernly" advantage is moot: as long as the Russians won't launch over China, they are forced into launches with attitudes no lower than if they launched from the tip of China they are avoiding (not that I really think 1950s USSR had any concerns about launching over China, that has to be a modern change).

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    Default Re: In Russia's space graveyard, locals scavenge fallen spacecraft for profit

    Quote Originally Posted by wumpus View Post
    At the time it was established, the USSR was probably far happier with the locals scavenging parts than the US Navy.
    Quite true, as early on in the Space Race the US was lagging behind in rocket technology, but had a far superior Navy to intercept capsules/rocket stages landing at sea.
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: In Russia's space graveyard, locals scavenge fallen spacecraft for profit

    Quote Originally Posted by wumpus View Post
    Hawaii is much further south than KSC, and gives you plenty of places that can launch in all direction (the US needs Vandenburg in California to launch South for polar orbits). Unfortunately, while Hawaii may have had a congressional delegation by the time launch locations were established, they had almost no seniority and couldn't bring home the pork.
    Hawaii is also more than 2000 miles away from the mainland--Honolulu is farther from Los Angeles than LA is from New York City. Puerto Rico is closer and at a similar latitude, but the immense infrastructure costs of a permanent multi-use launch facility put a fair premium on something that you can easily ship to, and it's much faster and cheaper to ship rocket components a thousand miles by rail than two thousand by sea (plus another thousand by rail if the components are built inland somewhere like Ohio or Missouri).

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    Default Re: In Russia's space graveyard, locals scavenge fallen spacecraft for profit

    Quote Originally Posted by Misereor View Post
    All I know, is that if one of the scavengers turns out to be an attractive young female who's lost her parents, is dreaming of becoming a pilot, and exhibits amazing feats of skill in disciplines she's never tried before, I'm paying for a hit on her.
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    Default Re: In Russia's space graveyard, locals scavenge fallen spacecraft for profit

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    Hawaii is also more than 2000 miles away from the mainland--Honolulu is farther from Los Angeles than LA is from New York City. Puerto Rico is closer and at a similar latitude, but the immense infrastructure costs of a permanent multi-use launch facility put a fair premium on something that you can easily ship to, and it's much faster and cheaper to ship rocket components a thousand miles by rail than two thousand by sea (plus another thousand by rail if the components are built inland somewhere like Ohio or Missouri).
    I'm fairly sure that Spacex's next generation rocket will be built in LA and travel to the launch site (presumably Florida, at least at first. Possibly later in Texas) through the Panama Canal. I'd be shocked if Apollo craft didn't do the same.

    Of course, the earlier decisions were probably based on Mercury-class rockets, which could be transported by rail and probably truck.

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