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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Psionic Army Design?

    Quote Originally Posted by kalos72 View Post
    Gotcha on the disciplines, thanks.

    For the Constructors -
    Feats:Spell Focus/Augment Summoning/Imbued Summoning/Dual Plane Summons
    - Use Venomfire buff with Imbued on AC
    - Get an extra improved AC with Dual Plane
    No. Constructors build armies of astral constructs. Dual-Plane Summons experts can do the Imbued venomfire trick, but they don't build astral constructs. They summon creatures from the summon monster lists, with the AC abilities on top.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Libris: look at your allowed sources. I don't think any of your options were from those.
    My incarnate/crusader. A self-healing crowd-control melee build (ECL 8).
    My Ruby Knight Vindicator barsader. A party-buffing melee build (ECL 14).
    Doctor Despair's and my all-natural approach to necromancy.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Psionic Army Design?

    http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild...-Plane_Summons

    I was reading this as you summon one and get an AC to boot?

    As for the other feats, I was assuming that they could apply to an AC as well as a summoned monster. You could just make PSI versions of each feat to match AC's.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Psionic Army Design?

    Quote Originally Posted by kalos72 View Post
    http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild...-Plane_Summons

    I was reading this as you summon one and get an AC to boot?

    As for the other feats, I was assuming that they could apply to an AC as well as a summoned monster. You could just make PSI versions of each feat to match AC's.
    Well, even if you get an AC and a summoned creature, the AC's abilities apply to the summoned monster instead of the AC. Still, I suppose you're right in that it does say you summon an AC, so... free sack of hit points with every summon!

    Imbued Summoning only applies to the summoning subschool, but yeah, you can make a psionic version. Downside is you'd probably need to expend your focus to use it, which means you need Psicrystal Containment to use it alongside Burrowing Power, and/or you give up Enlarge Power for the extra range.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faily View Post
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    WHY IS THERE NO LIKE BUTTON?!
    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Libris: look at your allowed sources. I don't think any of your options were from those.
    My incarnate/crusader. A self-healing crowd-control melee build (ECL 8).
    My Ruby Knight Vindicator barsader. A party-buffing melee build (ECL 14).
    Doctor Despair's and my all-natural approach to necromancy.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Psionic Army Design?

    So I am going to say:

    Constructors -
    Feats:Spell Focus/Augment Summoning/Imbued Summoning - Psionic versions
    - Use Venomfire(psionic version) buff with Imbued on AC

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Psionic Army Design?

    Could the metaconcert idea be used for a group of Aegis as well?

    Stick several Constructors and a spell-to-power erudite in metaconcert.

    Surround by telekinetic sphere and affinity field.

    Use schism to funnel power points to the metaconcert entity using bestow power.

    Use Burrowing Power to manifest astral construct through the sphere.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Psionic Army Design?

    Any Vitalist or Tactician experts out there have ideas on ways to use them in this scenario?

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Psionic Army Design?

    Ok so, am I doing this right?

    Aegis for front line melee
    Zealots to lead squads of Aegii
    Groups of Tacticians to lead the Zealots

    Groups of one STP Erudite and 4-5 Constructors for AC Shock Troop Support

    Aegis seems doable for ranged but are there better psionically speaking?

    Where do Vitalists go in this?


    I think I am getting overwhelmed here. Why does it seem like rangers and crusaders for front line troops and marshalls, DFI bards and dragon shaman support were stronger?

    :(
    Last edited by kalos72; 2018-06-14 at 08:54 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Psionic Army Design?

    Quote Originally Posted by kalos72 View Post
    I think I am getting overwhelmed here. Why does it seem like rangers and crusaders for front line troops and marshalls, DFI bards and dragon shaman support were stronger?
    Because a lot of power is hidden in specific powers, instead of easily-accessible class abilities. The astral construct-spamming dreadnought could take on any number of that ranger/crusader/marshal/bard/dragon shaman army, unless the bards were throwing greater dispel magic and managed to overwhelm the five manifesters (of course, the erudite would maintain dispelling buffer, a psionic ring of enduring arcana, and possibly multiple telekinetic spheres).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faily View Post
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    WHY IS THERE NO LIKE BUTTON?!
    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Libris: look at your allowed sources. I don't think any of your options were from those.
    My incarnate/crusader. A self-healing crowd-control melee build (ECL 8).
    My Ruby Knight Vindicator barsader. A party-buffing melee build (ECL 14).
    Doctor Despair's and my all-natural approach to necromancy.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Psionic Army Design?

    Quote Originally Posted by kalos72 View Post
    Ok so, am I doing this right?

    Aegis for front line melee
    Zealots to lead squads of Aegii
    Groups of Tacticians to lead the Zealots

    Groups of one STP Erudite and 4-5 Constructors for AC Shock Troop Support

    Aegis seems doable for ranged but are there better psionically speaking?

    Where do Vitalists go in this?

    I think I am getting overwhelmed here. Why does it seem like rangers and crusaders for front line troops and marshalls, DFI bards and dragon shaman support were stronger?

    :(
    Well, again, it depends on your goals. The strength of an Aegis lies in the generally all day, always available nature of their powers. In that way they are similar to other martials, although with vastly superior options like flight, burrow, and fast healing built in. In any kind of large engagement that, similar to a real world battle, plays out over hours instead of rounds, they are really strong. If you want a large army, or the ability of troops to operate with little support, or even rest then you want Aegii. If you can provide unlimited budget magical items and support, then of course, anyone can do what they do.

    If you are thinking more in terms of standard D&D combat where the ability to nova is more important, then they are probably inferior to proper manifesting classes like Psi-Warriors. I mean, if you want top tier power, field an army of Druids, or Wizards, or Psions. If you think your army is going to be able to control the engagements, and rest when they run out of PP, then of course classes that burn those kind of resources will be better.

    An Aegis is not the best class at anything. But it's in the top 2 or 3 for a lot of things, and can at least try its hand at anything. They are great in melee combat, okay at ranged. Good for scouting, and able to operate in almost any environment without magical support. For most fantasy armies that list of abilities is a wet dream. It's also almost independent of the stats of the character. High Int is helpful, but you could dump stat int, and it would just mean no bonus PP and no reconfiguring. If you were actually dealing with an army of NPCs with rolled or standard arrays, that's a big plus. If you get to hand every man jack in your army a chosen elite array, not so much.

    For any specific task however, you can find someone better. A Marksman or Soulbow will be better at ranged. A psi-warrior can out burst or out tank one, until he runs out of PP. The martial initiator classes will have better maneuvers, particularly at higher levels at the archetype progression chart tops out.

    As for the support classes, yeah probably. The Zealot is strong, but that much more due to his maneuvers and class abilities than his psionics. Tacticians and Vitalists are designed to work in small, tightly knit groups. For large forces, classes that can just radiate boosts like bards/marshals/dragon shamans, are, of course, going to be better. The real perk of the Zealot/Vitalist/Tactician is an built in comm network, that has pretty severe range limits until 15th level. If you are accurately depicting mass battles with communications lag and fog of war, they will be invaluable. Ironically however, the more you shrink from mass battle to D&D scale engagement, the more that utility fades, even as their regular abilities become more relevant.

    In the end it's up to what you need, and want. I mean, it's D&D, if you want, you can field an army of mind controlled trolls equipped with items of fire resistance and vorpal swords, or beholder starships straight from the depths of 2e space.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Psionic Army Design?

    True.

    With the ranges/crusaders I can "see" the power by the time we decided the equipment they would carry. Here, it's all under a veil.

    If I threw the Aegis into the STP Erudite groups, using metaconcert, would they get almost unlimited PP? With the Affinity Field and Bestow Power, once the Aegis gets low on PP he falls back to the group and recharges. I am not really getting the math there but I will try this weekend.

    Marksmen is just a better ranged then an Aegis, Ill check out Soulbow too.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Psionic Army Design?

    Is this math right for the STp/Constructor Trick?

    Spends Donates Recvs NetGain
    STP 11 8 30 19
    Con1 8 6 32 24
    Con2 8 6 32 24
    Con3 8 6 32 24
    Con4 8 6 32 24
    Con5 8 6 32 24

    Giving any Aegis in the Metaconcert 32 PP per round of "Bestow Power"?
    Last edited by kalos72; 2018-06-15 at 09:42 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Psionic Army Design?

    Quote Originally Posted by kalos72 View Post
    Is this math right for the STp/Constructor Trick?

    Spends Donates Recvs NetGain
    STP 11 8 30 19
    Con1 8 6 32 24
    Con2 8 6 32 24
    Con3 8 6 32 24
    Con4 8 6 32 24
    Con5 8 6 32 24

    Giving any Aegis in the Metaconcert 32 PP per round of "Bestow Power"?
    The STP erudite receives the same as all the others, being 6 + 6 + 6 + 6 + 8 = 32 points, putting net gain at 21 points. The weird-but-awesome thing about metaconcert (in 3.5, PF changed it, I believe) is that you get a separate entity that holds the power point reserve, has the increased save DCs, and so on. The erudite merely conducts the entity, they do not get the bonus for themselves.

    Bestow power goes like this: You donate 2 points for every 3 you spend, and the total cost is reduced by 1 with the torc. The metaconcert entity receives all donations directly, and everyone else (erudite, constructors, aegis) gets the same amount through the affinity field.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faily View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Libris: look at your allowed sources. I don't think any of your options were from those.
    My incarnate/crusader. A self-healing crowd-control melee build (ECL 8).
    My Ruby Knight Vindicator barsader. A party-buffing melee build (ECL 14).
    Doctor Despair's and my all-natural approach to necromancy.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Psionic Army Design?

    So if I add a bunch of Aegis, they would get the same amount even though they dont contribute?

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Psionic Army Design?

    Quote Originally Posted by kalos72 View Post
    So if I add a bunch of Aegis, they would get the same amount even though they dont contribute?
    As long as they can fit within the affinity field, yes. That's why it's a stupidly powerful power .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Libris: look at your allowed sources. I don't think any of your options were from those.
    My incarnate/crusader. A self-healing crowd-control melee build (ECL 8).
    My Ruby Knight Vindicator barsader. A party-buffing melee build (ECL 14).
    Doctor Despair's and my all-natural approach to necromancy.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Psionic Army Design?

    Hmm, thats a range of 20 right? Thats tight for 6 people plus a bunch of Aegis...

    Anyway to expand that range? I guess the constructors can move out of the field and let the Aegis in for a round of PP?

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Psionic Army Design?

    Quote Originally Posted by kalos72 View Post
    Hmm, thats a range of 20 right? Thats tight for 6 people plus a bunch of Aegis...

    Anyway to expand that range? I guess the constructors can move out of the field and let the Aegis in for a round of PP?
    Widen Power will increase the area. Since the range goes up and down as well as to the sides, you can layer them (they fly in formation)--easily room for twenty a hundred people within one affinity field*. The constructors have to remain within bestow power range of the metaconcert (20 ft.), and should probably also stay within the telekinetic sphere (which has a diameter of 1 ft./level) for safety.

    I'm not sure, but maybe a group of tacticians can stay within the field, and use the flow of power points to buff a cohort of aegides?


    The idea of a phalanx of aegides, supported from above by a sphere of tacticians, facing another phalanx of the same, is awesome. Two armies that will not fall until the beating psionic heart has been pierced and silenced.



    *WolframAlpha gives the helpful comparison "≈ 0.38 × minimum volume of an Olympic-sized swimming pool ( 2500 m3 )"
    Last edited by ExLibrisMortis; 2018-06-16 at 09:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faily View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Libris: look at your allowed sources. I don't think any of your options were from those.
    My incarnate/crusader. A self-healing crowd-control melee build (ECL 8).
    My Ruby Knight Vindicator barsader. A party-buffing melee build (ECL 14).
    Doctor Despair's and my all-natural approach to necromancy.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Psionic Army Design?

    Now a phalanx of Aegides, THAT'S what I was looking for. Psionic sexiness...

    I am still struggling with the Vitalist though...

    And I think I am just going to go ranged with Energy Bows in the hands of the Aegis. with a Telekinetic Shield up, would I even bother with a ranged attack?

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Psionic Army Design?

    Quote Originally Posted by kalos72 View Post
    Now a phalanx of Aegides, THAT'S what I was looking for. Psionic sexiness...

    I am still struggling with the Vitalist though...

    And I think I am just going to go ranged with Energy Bows in the hands of the Aegis. with a Telekinetic Shield up, would I even bother with a ranged attack?
    Well, if you're feeding them 32 PP a round they can channel that straight into Empowered Blasts. At 12th level Improved Blast comes online, that could be 17d6+ fire/cold/electric/sonic a round to 3 creatures each, and it only goes up from there. What else are they going to do with those PP? Manifest a 2nd level ability as a 7th level manifester?

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Psionic Army Design?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andor13 View Post
    Well, if you're feeding them 32 PP a round they can channel that straight into Empowered Blasts. At 12th level Improved Blast comes online, that could be 17d6+ fire/cold/electric/sonic a round to 3 creatures each, and it only goes up from there. What else are they going to do with those PP? Manifest a 2nd level ability as a 7th level manifester?
    Can you break that down for me please? I am not following, although I am liking, your math :)

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Psionic Army Design?

    Quote Originally Posted by kalos72 View Post
    Can you break that down for me please? I am not following, although I am liking, your math :)
    Quote Originally Posted by The other thread
    At it's most basic 1 CP cost the suit can generate a ranged attack that's 1d8 x2 with a 30' range increment. That's better than a revolver, but not much by 10th level.
    2 more points gives you Improved Ranged attack which is 3d8 x2 at 10th level, technically that's as powerful as a ballista you can full attack with, but still not that impressive.
    2 more points can turn it into an energy attack which deals xd6 instead of xd8 and is a standard action, so no full attacking, but it now a ranged touch attack. (note that you can switch back and forth.)
    1 more point into Empowered Blast let's you pour PP straight into the energy blast at 1PP = +1d6 capped by class level.

    So in theory that's 13d6 of the energy of your choice as a ranged touch attack, not too shabby, but it's eating half your PP to do it. (Ignoring bonus PP.)

    OTOH you also have access to up to 4th level maneuvers and stances. 2 points into Initiators Soul lets you grab Elemental Flux Stance for 2d6 Energy damage stacked onto any attack you make, plus secondary benefits including DR 5/Adamantine or Fast Healing 1.

    So Ranged Attack (1 CP), Improved Ranged Attack (2 CP), Energy Blast (2 CP), 1 Empowered Blast (1 CP), Improved Energy Blast (3 CP), Initiators Soul (2 CP).

    That's 11 CP out of 15 at 12th level. But it's giving you a 3d6 (Improved Ranged Attack Modified by Energy Blast) + 2d6 (Initiators Soul: Elemental Flux Stance) + 12d6 (12 PP from Empowered Blast) = 17d6 to 3 targets (Improved Energy Blast. That's your choice of Fire, Cold, Electricity, or Sonic vs Touch AC.

    That's before magic items, feats or maneuvers. Normally that would represent not only a near total commitment of an Aegis's CP build, but also them novaing half their PP away in a single attack. But since you're pouring 32 PP a round into them from Metaconcert cheese, they can keep that up all day. Basically you're making a starcraft deathball.

    Presumably the other 4 points are spent on Flight + Perfect Maneuverability so they can just hover around the force ball and project doom.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Psionic Army Design?

    Thank you Andor!

    Presuming they are being fed PP from the Affinity Field, this is an awesome ranged NPC. If, given the other threads strategy of using a Telekinetic Field also, ranged attacks wouldn't work through the field correct?

    In comes Burrowing Power Feat I guess...

    The ranged guys wouldn't need to the Juggernaut and could get away with the Suit I am thinking.

    How would you build the melee version of the Aegis?

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Psionic Army Design?

    Also, the Extra Passenger ability comes into play here.

    The Erudite and Constructors are all being carried by the Aegis, no need for the Telekinetic field really and thus the Borrowing Power feat.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Psionic Army Design?

    Quote Originally Posted by kalos72 View Post
    The Erudite and Constructors are all being carried by the Aegis, no need for the Telekinetic field really and thus the Borrowing Power feat.
    I don't know how that "being carried" works, but the telekinetic sphere is primarily there because it's a sphere of force, so it is impenetrable to virtually all attacks, including incorporeal and ethereal attackers that might try to sneak in and disable the affinity field. That you can fly with it is strictly a secondary concern.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faily View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Libris: look at your allowed sources. I don't think any of your options were from those.
    My incarnate/crusader. A self-healing crowd-control melee build (ECL 8).
    My Ruby Knight Vindicator barsader. A party-buffing melee build (ECL 14).
    Doctor Despair's and my all-natural approach to necromancy.

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Psionic Army Design?

    So here is the latest rendition, still WIP.

    1st Squad
    5x Aegis - Zealot
    5x Aegis - Zealot
    Marksman - Vitalist - Tactician



    Class Outline
    Male Aleithian Dwarven Aegis
    12th level - Initiators Soul to get Maneuvers - Sleeping Goddess / Veiled Moon / Radiant Sun
    Crystal Spaulders / Torc of Power Preservation
    Female Mithril Elven Marksman
    12th level - Energy Bows?
    Female Half Giant Zealots
    lv15 - unlimited range on collective
    Female Elan Vitalists
    Off Spec AC Summoner?
    Male Forgeborn Tactician / Unifier
    lv 15 unlimited range on collective


    Collective Design
    Zealot Collective All Aegis+All Zealots+Marksman+Tactician
    Vitalist Collective All Aegis+All Zealots
    Tactician Collective All Zealots+Vitalist
    Last edited by kalos72; 2018-11-22 at 01:47 PM.

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