Unleveled Magic (3.5)

[Climowitz]

Have you ever heard or seen a variant magic system where spells have no fixed levels and can be cast as different levels, having different variables or effects depending on level used to cast. What do you think of this way to have magic in a game, will it make it slower? Faster? Allowing spontaneous casters to have a more defined type, wizards to be less versatile but more effective. And spells to be useful at every level instead of only being great at first and useless in the latter. Of course this system shall redefine metamagic.

[Jormengand]

Have you ever heard or seen a variant magic system where spells have no fixed levels and can be cast as different levels, having different variables or effects depending on level used to cast. What do you think of this way to have magic in a game, will it make it slower? Faster? Allowing spontaneous casters to have a more defined type, wizards to be less versatile but more effective. And spells to be useful at every level instead of only being great at first and useless in the latter. Of course this system shall redefine metamagic.

Yes, I have. It's called "Fifth edition" and it's an ungodly abomination against RPGs.

Of course, similarly, psionic powers scale with power point input, which is effectively level, as far as powers are concerned. So you could look into doing that kind of thing.

[Climowitz]

Yes, I have. It's called "Fifth edition" and it's an ungodly abomination against RPGs.

Of course, similarly, psionic powers scale with power point input, which is effectively level, as far as powers are concerned. So you could look into doing that kind of thing.

Do you mean DnD 5e ? If that's so, i believe that magic works the same, a single spell has not a detailed list of effects or progression that scales based on level rather than caster level, or just both ?

[Derpaligtr]

Do you mean DnD 5e ? If that's so, i believe that magic works the same, a single spell has not a detailed list of effects or progression that scales based on level rather than caster level, or just both ?

5e's pretty darn good. I prefer 4e, and a modified tier 3 - 3.5e, but it really fixed a lot of stupid stuff from 3e/3.5.

But the spells do work the same, they don't really change as you get better.

Saw a homebrew class played that the person had Cantrips and Magic Points. The player could upgrade firebolt to burning hands, firewall, fireball, or some other fire spells depending on how much MP they used.

I think a magic system like that would be great.

[Durzan]

Have you ever heard or seen a variant magic system where spells have no fixed levels and can be cast as different levels, having different variables or effects depending on level used to cast. What do you think of this way to have magic in a game, will it make it slower? Faster? Allowing spontaneous casters to have a more defined type, wizards to be less versatile but more effective. And spells to be useful at every level instead of only being great at first and useless in the latter. Of course this system shall redefine metamagic.

Yes... its in the Wheel of Time D20 RPG book, which was written using the D20 OGL back in 2000-2001. Channeling is what the system is called.

Uses spell slots and spontaneous casting as a base, with the spells (called weaves). Some spells just increased the effect of the spell when you used a higher spell level. Fireball (WoT), started off dealing 2d6 + Spellcasting Level for damage and only hit a single target... but bumping up the spell level increased the base damage and the blast radius up to a maximum spell level of 6th at which point the fireball had a blast radius of 50 feet and dealt 6d6 + Spellcasting Level to each person in the radius (reflex save for half).

Other spells had a different (but more potent effect) when you increased the spell level. For instance, the weave Compulsion could be cast at spell level 3 or 5. At level 3 it functioned similarly to Charm Person, while at level 5 it functioned similarly to Dominate Person.

All in all, it wasn't a bad system, but it wasn't the best either. WoT d20 was kinda clunky, and never got a 3.5e update.

I stole the concept for my own homebrew magic system that I'm putting together.

[Climowitz]

Yes... its in the Wheel of Time D20 RPG book, which was written using the D20 OGL back in 2000-2001. Channeling is what the system is called.

Uses spell slots and spontaneous casting as a base, with the spells (called weaves). Some spells just increased the effect of the spell when you used a higher spell level. Fireball (WoT), started off dealing 2d6 + Spellcasting Level for damage and only hit a single target... but bumping up the spell level increased the base damage and the blast radius up to a maximum spell level of 6th at which point the fireball had a blast radius of 50 feet and dealt 6d6 + Spellcasting Level to each person in the radius (reflex save for half).

Other spells had a different (but more potent effect) when you increased the spell level. For instance, the weave Compulsion could be cast at spell level 3 or 5. At level 3 it functioned similarly to Charm Person, while at level 5 it functioned similarly to Dominate Person.

All in all, it wasn't a bad system, but it wasn't the best either. WoT d20 was kinda clunky, and never got a 3.5e update.

I stole the concept for my own homebrew magic system that I'm putting together.

Great! I want something like that to reduce the number of spells and increase it's usefullness. I believe it's not that hatd yo come by but it is a really slow and long process

[Cosi]

Have you ever heard or seen a variant magic system where spells have no fixed levels and can be cast as different levels, having different variables or effects depending on level used to cast.

This is one of those things that looks tempting, but doesn't really work well in practice. Some spells have level-based scaling to do. You could make silent image, minor image, and so on into a single spell that gave you more control and more freedom depending on which slot you cast it from. summon monster basically does that already. But what the hell does grease scale to? Sure, you can point to some stuff, but at a certain point you're no longer getting any benefit from it. IIRC, the last discussion I was involved in about this suggested that color spray and prismatic wall be the same spell, which requires that you change duration, range, saving throws, area, and spell components. At that point, why not just write another spell?

I can see room for having this mechanic for some spells. You would save space by having one summon monster that could go in any slot. Probably silent image and cure light wounds too. But trying to fit burning hands, scorching ray, fireball, wall of fire, and meteor swarm to a progression is a fool's errand.

What do you think of this way to have magic in a game, will it make it slower?

Assuming you don't change anything else, it will have an extremely marginal effect on Wizards and Clerics (because they do not choose their spells during game time for the most part) and moderate to large effect on Sorcerers (because it increases their number of relevant options substantially).

[Derpaligtr]

This is one of those things that looks tempting, but doesn't really work well in practice. Some spells have level-based scaling to do. You could make silent image, minor image, and so on into a single spell that gave you more control and more freedom depending on which slot you cast it from. summon monster basically does that already. But what the hell does grease scale to? Sure, you can point to some stuff, but at a certain point you're no longer getting any benefit from it. IIRC, the last discussion I was involved in about this suggested that color spray and prismatic wall be the same spell, which requires that you change duration, range, saving throws, area, and spell components. At that point, why not just write another spell?

I can see room for having this mechanic for some spells. You would save space by having one summon monster that could go in any slot. Probably silent image and cure light wounds too. But trying to fit burning hands, scorching ray, fireball, wall of fire, and meteor swarm to a progression is a fool's errand.



Assuming you don't change anything else, it will have an extremely marginal effect on Wizards and Clerics (because they do not choose their spells during game time for the most part) and moderate to large effect on Sorcerers (because it increases their number of relevant options substantially).

Shocking Grasp could easily level up to Expiditious Retreat or even Haste, with a biy of fluff rearranging.

Lightning always has something to do with speed.

I would limot the spell casting to e6's type system... Once you go past 3rd or 4th level spells things get ridiculous no matter the system.

[Jormengand]

Shocking Grasp could easily level up to Expiditious Retreat or even Haste, with a biy of fluff rearranging.

Yes, but at that point you can't write it as a nice "This gets blah for every slot above xth" like 5e spells or make it augmentable like psychic powers. What you're talking about is more like some kind of domain sorcerer.

[Climowitz]

This is one of those things that looks tempting, but doesn't really work well in practice. Some spells have level-based scaling to do. You could make silent image, minor image, and so on into a single spell that gave you more control and more freedom depending on which slot you cast it from. summon monster basically does that already. But what the hell does grease scale to? Sure, you can point to some stuff, but at a certain point you're no longer getting any benefit from it. IIRC, the last discussion I was involved in about this suggested that color spray and prismatic wall be the same spell, which requires that you change duration, range, saving throws, area, and spell components. At that point, why not just write another spell?

I can see room for having this mechanic for some spells. You would save space by having one summon monster that could go in any slot. Probably silent image and cure light wounds too. But trying to fit burning hands, scorching ray, fireball, wall of fire, and meteor swarm to a progression is a fool's errand.



Assuming you don't change anything else, it will have an extremely marginal effect on Wizards and Clerics (because they do not choose their spells during game time for the most part) and moderate to large effect on Sorcerers (because it increases their number of relevant options substantially).

I know what you mean, there are many spells that can be grouped into a single one, many that needs a redefinition at many levels, which is better than writing 9 to 3 different spells, and many that feel like they don't group with any other or just don't seem scalables, well, grease could easily be grouped with minor creation and spells like that, or simply have a 3 to 5 level limits. the system looks foward to reducing spells numbers, and complexity of magic.

Wizards and Sorcerers would feel the same, since they will have a relative number of spells per day and spells know versus less spells per day and possibility to prepare any one spell, just less in total.

[Derpaligtr]

Yes, but at that point you can't write it as a nice "This gets blah for every slot above xth" like 5e spells or make it augmentable like psychic powers. What you're talking about is more like some kind of domain sorcerer.

It's simple enough if you make a list.

Each caster gains X cantrips. When you use magic points you may upgrade the cantrip to a spell that is on their list.

3 MP: 1st level spell
5 MP: 2nd level spell
7 MP: 3rd level spell

Then for each cantrip have a list of spells it can upgrade to. Refluff any spells, if you want, or just make your own.

You don't need the cantrips to say anything other than what they do. You don't need the spells to say anything other than what they do.

You don't need to over complicate things.

[Climowitz]

It's simple enough if you make a list.

Each caster gains X cantrips. When you use magic points you may upgrade the cantrip to a spell that is on their list.

3 MP: 1st level spell
5 MP: 2nd level spell
7 MP: 3rd level spell

Then for each cantrip have a list of spells it can upgrade to. Refluff any spells, if you want, or just make your own.

You don't need the cantrips to say anything other than what they do. You don't need the spells to say anything other than what they do.

You don't need to over complicate things.

Seems pretty good, however, if you use linear advancement, you will have to start creating more cantrips. And if not, you end up getting tons of spells, just for one cantrip. Which will make them far more stronger than others.

[Derpaligtr]

Seems pretty good, however, if you use linear advancement, you will have to start creating more cantrips. And if not, you end up getting tons of spells, just for one cantrip. Which will make them far more stronger than others.

More cantrips would be awesome!

Have some overlap with what spells they give at later levels. Two lightning cantrips might have the same first level spells, but diverge at level 2 and even further at level 3.

I would even merge some cantrips together. Control water and any ice Cantrips, essentially make Cantrips a bit more flexible.

When it comes to 3e, I wouldn't go past level 3 spells. Make level 4 and above incantations.

4e I wouldn't go too far into paragon levels, if at all.

5e you could hit 4th level spells for the most part.

[Nifft]

Seems pretty good, however, if you use linear advancement, you will have to start creating more cantrips. And if not, you end up getting tons of spells, just for one cantrip. Which will make them far more stronger than others.

Hmm, maybe do a thing where some spells are the result of a combination of cantrips.

So to actually get all the [Fire] spells, you'd need all the [Fire] cantrips.

[Derpaligtr]

Hmm, maybe do a thing where some spells are the result of a combination of cantrips.

So to actually get all the [Fire] spells, you'd need all the [Fire] cantrips.

I would require rules for combo casting. If such a system existed, it would need rules for party members to be ablw to all cast their cantrip, using mp or whatever to level it up, in order to cast higher level spells.

Maybe alone you can change your cantrip to level one spells. But with two more people, all casting at the same time, you can make it a level 2 spell.

Plus rules to turn your enemy spell into a new spell by intering your cantrip into theirs. Instead of a basic "counterspell" or "dispell magic" spell, you would need to have a caster v caster fight and the spell doesn't just fizzle but turns into a specific other spell.

[Cosi]

Shocking Grasp could easily level up to Expiditious Retreat or even Haste, with a biy of fluff rearranging.

Please explain to me why we want this:

Expeditious Retreat
Transmutation
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 min./level (D)

This spell increases your base land speed by 30 feet. (This adjustment is treated as an enhancement bonus.) There is no effect on other modes of movement, such as burrow, climb, fly, or swim. As with any effect that increases your speed, this spell affects your jumping distance (see the Jump skill).

and this:

Shocking Grasp
Evocation [Electricity]
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature or object touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

Your successful melee touch attack deals 1d6 points of electricity damage per caster level (maximum 5d6). When delivering the jolt, you gain a +3 bonus on attack rolls if the opponent is wearing metal armor (or made out of metal, carrying a lot of metal, or the like).

Should be the same spell. What benefit is there to writing up something that is a melee-range attack spell if you cast it from one slot, and a short-duration movement buff if you cast it from a different slot? Because that is the proposal in the OP. You seem to what to do something like domains or spheres, which is definitely a thing you could do, but is also definitely not what OP was suggesting.

Yes, but at that point you can't write it as a nice "This gets blah for every slot above xth" like 5e spells or make it augmentable like psychic powers. What you're talking about is more like some kind of domain sorcerer.

Pretty much this. If you have to respecify the range, duration, area, and target, then you should not be combining the spells.

grease could easily be grouped with minor creation and spells like that

Am I misunderstanding what you mean by "group"? Because I don't see how you make a BFC effect you cast in combat turn into a logistics effect you cast in downtime in a way that is any more elegant than what happens now. Again, if you just mean "what if everyone did domains", that's more reasonable, but that's not what I got from the OP.

Each caster gains X cantrips. When you use magic points you may upgrade the cantrip to a spell that is on their list.

Okay, so you mean, "what if we do something different from the OP, and give people spell trees". Sure. That is a way people could cast spells. It's not really better than Vancian casting (or Recharge casting, or Drain, or any other resource management system), but you could absolutely write up a playable class that did that.

When it comes to 3e, I wouldn't go past level 3 spells. Make level 4 and above incantations.

Don't do this. The idea that every spell over 3rd level is unusably broken is so absurd as to not be worth entertaining. Obviously your storm magic should eventually give you control weather. "Make a storm" is the most visually iconic thing people with storm magic do.

[Maat Mons]

Honestly, I'd take it in the opposite direction.

Use psionics as a base, but remove power points. Instead, at will, you can manifest a power as if spending 1/2 your class level (rounded up) power points. And, X/encounter, you can manifest a power as if spending full power points.

That way, you don't have 20 different options for how much effort you put into something. You basically have "light hits" and "heavy hits."

Also, you don't need to hold back during easy battles to conserve resources for future hard battles that may or may not actually happen.

[Derpaligtr]

Please explain to me why we want this:



and this:



Should be the same spell. What benefit is there to writing up something that is a melee-range attack spell if you cast it from one slot, and a short-duration movement buff if you cast it from a different slot? Because that is the proposal in the OP. You seem to what to do something like domains or spheres, which is definitely a thing you could do, but is also definitely not what OP was suggesting.



Pretty much this. If you have to respecify the range, duration, area, and target, then you should not be combining the spells.



Am I misunderstanding what you mean by "group"? Because I don't see how you make a BFC effect you cast in combat turn into a logistics effect you cast in downtime in a way that is any more elegant than what happens now. Again, if you just mean "what if everyone did domains", that's more reasonable, but that's not what I got from the OP.



Okay, so you mean, "what if we do something different from the OP, and give people spell trees". Sure. That is a way people could cast spells. It's not really better than Vancian casting (or Recharge casting, or Drain, or any other resource management system), but you could absolutely write up a playable class that did that.



Don't do this. The idea that every spell over 3rd level is unusably broken is so absurd as to not be worth entertaining. Obviously your storm magic should eventually give you control weather. "Make a storm" is the most visually iconic thing people with storm magic do.

Yeah, magic in 3e isn't broken at all.. Sure...

Not sure what game you're playing but things get ridiculous.

But, my reason for saying so is because thibgs get either redundant to all hell or they just get ridiculously complicated for the sake of it.

Delayed Fireball is just a fireball. Just give the player the option to delay it at its base.

Cone of Cold is just cold burning hands. Give the player the option of making burning hands a cold spell.

Meh. No need for redundancies.

[Cosi]

Yeah, magic in 3e isn't broken at all.. Sure...

Not sure what game you're playing but things get ridiculous.

There's a world of difference between "not broken" and "don't have spells over 3rd level". Yes, planar binding and polymorph are broken. But how many broken spells can you name that aren't variants of those? Is cloudkill really something that is terminally unhealthy for the game? fabricate? wall of stone? You don't have to want to use those spells, but their existence is part of what makes 3e a good game, and you should not remove them -- that is the path that leads to 4e.

[JNAProductions]

Honestly, I'd take it in the opposite direction.

Use psionics as a base, but remove power points. Instead, at will, you can manifest a power as if spending 1/2 your class level (rounded up) power points. And, X/encounter, you can manifest a power as if spending full power points.

That way, you don't have 20 different options for how much effort you put into something. You basically have "light hits" and "heavy hits."

Also, you don't need to hold back during easy battles to conserve resources for future hard battles that may or may not actually happen.

So, at level 10, you basically have unlimited 3rd level slots?

That seems a little borked.

[Goaty14]

You don't have to want to use those spells, but their existence is part of what makes 3e a good game, and you should not remove them -- that is the path that leads to 4e.

Even if your group has an issue, do mind the existence of a DM to pull the player aside and nicely ask them to stop outperforming everybody. There is a difference between "breaking the game wide open" and "not compatible for certain groups".

[Climowitz]

Thinking about it, i like the idea of evolving cantrips with spell slots, and having 2 cantrips allows a diferent effect, so having the Fireball Cantrip and the Creation Cantrip, would allow a Wall of Fire effect.
Or having the Charming Cantrip and the Summoning Cantrip, would allow the Summon Planar Ally effect.

Of course it needs a high revision and lot's of work, but i think it would give a smoother way of having spells.

[Xzoltar]

Its easy to make such a system, in our game we have been using this for more than a decade (since AD&D Skills & Powers).

As was said its quite similar to the Psionic Subsystem. A lot of spells got fused in the same base spell but with options to allow customization on the spot.

Some modification options come from Metamagic Feats, some other from Prestige Class or Archetype.

Dispel Magic is now Dispel Magic (including the Lesser and Greater version), Mordenkeinen Disjunction but you may also have more obscure options like Reaving Dispel.

Spell can go above level 9 (10 is the maximum pre-Epic).

About half the spells from the AD&D Wizard Spell Compendium I, II, III and IV have been converted to Pathfinder and to this "system" of spellcasting so we are speaking of close to a thousand wizard spells (each having a minimum of 3 options but some having 10+)

[Climowitz]

Its easy to make such a system, in our game we have been using this for more than a decade (since AD&D Skills & Powers).

As was said its quite similar to the Psionic Subsystem. A lot of spells got fused in the same base spell but with options to allow customization on the spot.

Some modification options come from Metamagic Feats, some other from Prestige Class or Archetype.

Dispel Magic is now Dispel Magic (including the Lesser and Greater version), Mordenkeinen Disjunction but you may also have more obscure options like Reaving Dispel.

Spell can go above level 9 (10 is the maximum pre-Epic).

About half the spells from the AD&D Wizard Spell Compendium I, II, III and IV have been converted to Pathfinder and to this "system" of spellcasting so we are speaking of close to a thousand wizard spells (each having a minimum of 3 options but some having 10+)

Absolutely fantastic. Any way you can share it so i can see it?

[Xzoltar]

I could share some, but everything is in French, so I would need to make conversion