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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quick update on above post.

    I've decided to try and update the existing rules so the game can be run largely as is with little modifications to stat blocks etc.

    The lions share is done. Major changes include:

    • Slight tweaking of BAB and Skill scaling issues,
    • All Talent Trees have 5 talents, and all classes have 4 Trees to pick from;
    • There are 6 general Force Talent trees (Control, Sense, Alter, Light side, Dark side and Shaman - the later representing primitive Force users like Feulcians and Dathomiiri)
    • Most Talents are the same, some have been combined for greater effect, some have been removed, some have been added, no more dead duck Talents
    • CT sniping and stacking Talents have been reduced or changed to prevent CT sniper builds from being too dominant, Every class has Talents that give it a more clearly defined role like Striker, Tank, Skill monkey, Leader etc;
    • Completing a Talent Tree by geting all 5 talents provides a completion bonus to BAB and Skills which fixes higher level scaling issues,
    • Full round actions are now Standard actions,
    • A few feat changes and additions,
    • Slight changes to Starship combat,
    • Solo creature encounter rules,
    • All classes get 3 Second winds/ day but no more than 1/ encounter,
    • Destiny and Force Point overhaul,


    and a few other tweaks.

    Ill be formatting over the next few days, and will post what I have then.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Nifft's Avatar

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    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Cool.

    Did you decide to use the 5e framework, or are you sticking with the d20 conventions?

    Using terms like BAB make me think the latter, but I keep hope alive in my heart and trust in the Force.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Cool.

    Did you decide to use the 5e framework, or are you sticking with the d20 conventions?

    Using terms like BAB make me think the latter, but I keep hope alive in my heart and trust in the Force.
    5e certainly has its advantages, but trying to convert d20 into 5e... you would almost be better off building something new which is 5e framework from the ground up rather than trying to fit Saga's square peg into 5e's round hole.

    Though - I have nothing against d20 either. Both core systems simply have their own pros & cons, and d20's usual balance issues aren't bad in Saga aside from the aforementioned Use the Force at low levels and a few niche build combos.
    Last edited by CharonsHelper; 2018-07-16 at 07:39 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by CharonsHelper View Post
    5e certainly has its advantages, but trying to convert d20 into 5e... you would almost be better off building something new which is 5e framework from the ground up rather than trying to fit Saga's square peg into 5e's round hole.

    Though - I have nothing against d20 either. Both core systems simply have their own pros & cons, and d20's usual balance issues aren't bad in Saga aside from the aforementioned Use the Force at low levels and a few niche build combos.
    And this is kind of where I landed ultimately.

    The cons of a 5E style conversion include the work needed once the game starts to re-stat everything to fit.

    By retaining the scaling of SWSE, but simply smoothing over the problem areas (low level skill bonuses vs attack rolls, and high level defences) you can keep most of the system intact (including NPCs, vehicles, talents etc).

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Thinking out loud here.

    Wouldnt the easiest way of fixing the problem of high level attack rolls/ skill checks V defences (where it becomes impossible to hit barring a natural 20) be to simply reduce Heroic Bonus to Defense scores to 3/4 Heroic level (Cleric BAB)?

    That also brings feats like double attack and triple attack into play more.

    A reasonably optimized Solider 20 [armored defense line] optimizing defences comes out with a Reflex defense of 10 [Base] + 2 [Dex, limited by Armor max Dex] +4 [Class] + 1 [Improved defences] + 1 [Dodge] +1 [Martial Arts] +15 [Heroic] + 5 [Armor] + 1 [Zabrak] or around 35.

    Fort defense is also around 35. Will Defense comes out at around 30

    With Skill (focused) and full BAB (presuming +5 to hit from Ability score) you're looking at +25 to hit.

    Thats a 50 percent chance to hit Reflex and Fort. Youre only at 25 percent with full BAB and second attack feat, or if a 3/4 BAB class, or if using a Trained (but not focused) skill.

    Cover/ Prone (+5), Fighting defensively (+2/5 if trained in Acrobatics) and other talents and feats can easily increase Reflex defense higher.

    Heck; that seems to work perfectly.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    This rehash is turning into an epic reworking of a lot of rules.

    Trying to keep to cinematic action, and the flavor of Star Wars.

    Talents have been tweaked, combat tweaked, defenses tweaked, skill focus tweaked, feats tweaks, classes tweaked, healing tweaked, the works.

    Should be done in a few days. Ill post it then.

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Thinking out loud here.

    Wouldnt the easiest way of fixing the problem of high level attack rolls/ skill checks V defences (where it becomes impossible to hit barring a natural 20) be to simply reduce Heroic Bonus to Defense scores to 3/4 Heroic level (Cleric BAB)?

    That also brings feats like double attack and triple attack into play more.

    A reasonably optimized Solider 20 [armored defense line] optimizing defences comes out with a Reflex defense of 10 [Base] + 2 [Dex, limited by Armor max Dex] +4 [Class] + 1 [Improved defences] + 1 [Dodge] +1 [Martial Arts] +15 [Heroic] + 5 [Armor] + 1 [Zabrak] or around 35.

    Fort defense is also around 35. Will Defense comes out at around 30

    With Skill (focused) and full BAB (presuming +5 to hit from Ability score) you're looking at +25 to hit.

    Thats a 50 percent chance to hit Reflex and Fort. Youre only at 25 percent with full BAB and second attack feat, or if a 3/4 BAB class, or if using a Trained (but not focused) skill.

    Cover/ Prone (+5), Fighting defensively (+2/5 if trained in Acrobatics) and other talents and feats can easily increase Reflex defense higher.

    Heck; that seems to work perfectly.
    Here you are comparing a character that has spent 4 feats (6 if you count starting feats), 4? talents and its species choice vs an attack from a character that happens to have a high dex or str, and you think that this massive amount of defensive effort should result in only dodging 45% of the attacks?

    In addition, that will defense is fairly likely to wind up around 28 (barring additional investment), meaning that you would only resist about 10% of force powers from your hypothetical force user.

    Letís say that your opponent has invested a little bit more in attacking, say weapon focus, greater weapon focus and powerful charge (two feats and a talent to increase hit chance), this hypothetical str 20, bab 20 character would have +31 to hit on a charge, for a 85% chance to hit your highly focused defensive character.

    It requires more effort to get comparable to hit bonuses with ranged attacks, though melee accuracy could be significantly further improved via rage or dark rage.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Waar View Post
    Here you are comparing a character that has spent 4 feats (6 if you count starting feats), 4? talents and its species choice vs an attack from a character that happens to have a high dex or str, and you think that this massive amount of defensive effort should result in only dodging 45% of the attacks?
    He doesnt 'only dodge' 45 percent of attacks. He takes cover, (or simply fights defensively, being trained in Acrobatics) and he dodges the overwhelming majority of attacks.

    As it stands at present the same PC has a Defence score of in excess of 40 (before fighting defensively, cover, buffs from nearby Nobles, circumstance bonuses etc) meaning the only way to hit him (even for a Solider of 20th level) is to crit.

    As someone who has played the game for over a decade, there is a massive disconnect at high (and low) levels with attack bonuses (including skills that target defences) and defence scores.

    At low level skill attacks trivialise defence scores. At high level the inverse is true, with defence scores trivilaising both attacks and skills that target defences.

    In addition, that will defense is fairly likely to wind up around 28 (barring additional investment), meaning that you would only resist about 10% of force powers from your hypothetical force user.
    Will defence adds up to 10+15+Wis+Class+1 (Zabrak) +1 (Improved defences). Presuming a Class bonus of +2 only, and a Wisdom of 14, He's looking at a Will Defence of 31.

    Note that the Grand Army of the Republic feat lets him add his Armors equipment bonus to Fort defence to his Wis defence (likley a bonus of +4), in addition to the Unstoppable Force feat that adds a further +5 vs Force powers. Most 'Max defence' builds I know go for the single level in Officer (using the Commando talents to qualify) for the +4 class bonus to Defence. It could be considerably higher.

    Lets say he hasnt focussed soley on defence (investing a lot in it, but not the exclusion of all else).

    Bob
    Zabrak Solider 5, Scout 2, Scoundrel 1, Elite Soldier 9, Officer 1, Ace Pilot 1
    Talents: Armored Defence, Improved Armored Defence, Evasion [others]
    Feats: Martial Arts I and II, Improved Defences, Heavy Armor proficiency, Grand Army of the Republic Training, Wary Defender [others]
    Skills: Acrobatics, Pilot [others]
    Dex 18, Wisdom 14, Con 16
    Gear: Modified Heavy Battle Armor (+10 Armor, +2 Max dex, +4 Fort)

    Fort Defence 10 + 4 (class) +15 (Heroic) +1 Improved defence, +4 Armor, +3 Con, +1 Zabrak = 38
    Ref Defence 10 +4 (class) +15 Heroic, +5 Armor, +2 Dex, +2 Martial Arts I and II, +1 Zabrak, + 1 Improved defences = 40
    Will Defence = 10 + 4 (Class) +15 Heroic, +1 Improved defence, +2 Wisom, +1 Zabrak, +4 Grand Army Republic =37

    Fort 38, Ref 40, Will 37

    When Bob is Fighting defensively: Fort 40, Ref 45, Will 39

    Note Bob is in no way pushing the outer limts (you could quite easily add another 2-5 points onto those scores with extra feats and so forth, but we want to leave enough room for offensive feats and talents and other stuff). This is in no way pushed to the 'limits'.

    Melee Defence, Unstoppable Force are 2 feats off the top of my head that help Bob even more here.

    A 20th level NonHeroic PC (or a Noble, Scout or Scoundrel) shooting at Bob (with Dex 18, Weapon focus, Point Blank Shot and at close range) is shooting +20, needing... a natural 20 to hit, when Bob is not fighting defensively.

    A 20th level Solider or Jedi shooting at Bob with the same scores (+4 Dex, +1 Focus, +1 Point blank) needs a 14+

    Remember; very few PCs in SWSE have a BAB of 20. You literally need 20 levels, and all of those levels in Full BAB classes like Solider, Jedi and PrCs. Most NPC's (and indeed PCs) have a level or two (or most levels) in 3/4 BAB classes (inclduing the most common one, the Non-Heroic class). Accordingly the reality is for this PC that most creatures and NPCs need a Natural 20 to hit him (barring 20th level Jedis and Soldiers!)

    Note how even 20th level Jedis and Soldiers (the best of the best) need Natural 20's to hit Bob when Bob fights defensively, or he happens to be in Medium range or greater, or if he takes cover, or if they are making mutiple attacks, or using rapid shot, power attack etc.

    Our Jedi might instead decide to UtF Bob, but (presuming Skill Focus UtF and a whopping Charisma of 20) needs 12+ to hit Bobs Will, 13+ to hit Bobs Fort (those values increase by a further +2 when Bob is fighting defensively.

    If 20th level Jedi with 20 Charisma scores feature prominently in Bobs campaign, he's probably taken Unstoppable Force feat, meaning (you guessed it) even 'Force Wizard extrordianare' needs a Natural 20 to affect Bob with any Force powers!

    The above figures were hashed out with 3/4 Heroic level to defences, not the core bonus of = to heroic level (add 5 to the above defence scores if you want to compute it by RAW!).

    Letís say that your opponent has invested a little bit more in attacking, say weapon focus, greater weapon focus and powerful charge (two feats and a talent to increase hit chance), this hypothetical str 20, bab 20 character would have +31 to hit on a charge, for a 85% chance to hit your highly focused defensive character.
    Hypothetical 'high defence' PC fights defensively. He takes -2 to hit, for +5 to Reflex defence. We're in melee so range and cover wont help.

    Your '20th level, full BAB 20, Uber-charger' now hits on a 14+ on the charge, dropping to 19+ in following rounds.

    It requires more effort to get comparable to hit bonuses with ranged attacks, though melee accuracy could be significantly further improved via rage or dark rage.
    And I am OK with melee being more deadly that Ranged combat. There should be a trade-off as it's much harder to engage a ranged combatant with your sharp pointy stick, when he's carrying a blaster rifle.

    Its easy to Fight defensively (+5 to Defences if trained in Acrobatics) or simply take Cover remember; one doesnt need to be a Wookie or a Dark Jedi (both of which are outliers) to do either.
    Last edited by Malifice; 2018-08-10 at 01:22 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    For a quick example of what I am talking about above, here is a reasonably optimised 'Defence' build (that also packs a decent punch):

    Biff the Magnificent
    Male Zabrak Soldier 8/ Scout 1/ Gladiator 10/ Officer 1/ Elite Trooper 1
    S 14, D 20, C 16, W 16, I 14, Ch 8
    Talents: Indomitable, Armored Defence, Improved AD, Second skin, Evasion, Acute Senses, Improved Initiative, Uncanny Dodge I, Exotic Weapon Master, Armor Mastery, Controlled Burst, Tough as Nails
    Feats: Improved damage threshold, Grand army of the republic training, Wary defender, Exotic weapon proficiency, [Rakkatan Heavy Blaster Rifle], Weapon Focus [Rakkatan Blaster Rifle], Burst fire, Improved defences, Shake it Off, Light Armor, Medium Armor, Pistols, Rifles, Advanced Melee Weapons, Point Blank Shot, Martial Arts I, Triple Crit [Rakatan Rifle]
    Skills: Initiative, Acrobatics, Endurance, Knowledge [Tactics], Perception

    Reflex Defence: (10 base, +20 Heroic +4 class, +1 MArtsI, +1 Imp Def, +5 Fight defensive, +5 Armor, +1 Second skin, +2 Dex, +1 Zabrak) = 50
    Fort Defence: (10 base, +20 Heroic +4 class, +1 Imp Def, +2 Fight defensive, +6 Armor, +1 Second skin, +3 Con, +1 Zabrak) 48
    Will Defence: (10 base, +20 Heroic +4 class, +1 Imp Def, +2 Fight defensive, +6 Armor, +1 Second skin, +3 Wis, +1 Zabrak) 48

    DT: 53

    Attack: Ranged: Rakkatan template Heavy Blaster Rifle: +27 at Point Blank Range with Burst fire, fighting defensively and braced, 5d12+11 damage at point blank range, x 3 damage on a Crit; OR Rakkatan Sonic Rifle +27 at Point Blank Range with Burst fire, fighting defensively and braced, 4d10+11 damage at point blank range, x 3 damage on a Crit, cant be deflected with the Deflect Talent.
    Melee: Ionised Neutronium Vibro Axe: +22 fighting defensively, 3d12+15+2d6 Ion, 19-20 (x3)

    Gear:
    Stygian Triplasmic Polymer Katarn Class Commando armor [superior fortification mod]
    Rakkatan Heavy blaster Rifle [superior accuracy mod]
    Rakkatan Vibro Axe [superior accuracy mod, Ion charger, Neutronium coating]
    Rakkatan Sonic rifle [superior accuracy Mod]

    PrC features: Unflinching - 5/ encounter Biff may add his Gladiator Class level (+10) as a bonus to his choice of his Will Defence or his Fort Defence as a reaction. The bonus lasts till the start of his next turn. Delay Damage - ignore damage for 1 round.
    --------

    Tactics:

    On Biffs turn he moves to cover, and if possible, braces his Rakkatan Heavy Rifle, and uses the Fight Defensive Standard Action to shoot someone. When Fighting defensively his Defence Scores are 50/48/48. He squeezes off Controlled Bursts each round at +27 to hit, dealing 5d12+11 damage (triple damage on a Crit).

    Cover adds more to his Reflex defence if desperately needed, and he can (5/ encounter, as a reaction) add +10 to Fort or Will defence (bringing them up to 58 till the start of his next turn) to stave off any pesky Force Wizards that might be around, and a Defence score of 50 somehow isnt good enough (using his Sonic Rifle instead of his Heavy blast rifle if any idiot pulls out a lightsaber).

    If he actually gets hit, he uses Delay Damage to ignore it, and Shake it Off and Indomitable to quickly recover.

    He has evasion (so no damage from area attacks unless they exceed his defence scores) and Uncanny Dodge I (so he cant be caught flat footed, unless immobilized somehow).

    -------------

    Problems Biff highlights

    Even the Force wizard to end all Force Wizards (Skill focus [Use the Force], Charisma 20 (+5), Education Destiny completed) needs to land a 18-20 on the D20 to hit Biff with a Force power... and Biff can simply use his Unflinching class feature to add +10 to the relevant defence score if that happens, turning even a natural 20 on the Use the Force check into a miss (Skill checks - unlike attack rolls - do not automatically hit on a natural 20).

    Our Force Wizard extraordinaire with +30 to UtF needs to pull a natural 20 out the bag, spend a Force point, be Strong in the Force, and score an 8 on the d8 Force dice (58 total check result) to hit Biff when Biff uses unflinching to increase his defence score to 58.

    Biff tends to just rely on his Reflex Defence of 50 (55 in cover), Evasion and Uncanny Dodge to protect him against all but the most insane of attack bonuses vs his Reflex defence. It's going to take one Dark Raged out Unleashed Dark Jedi Lighsaber monster to have a chance to hurt him.

    I know this is an optimal build, but it's not soley devoted to Defences (Biff could have taken Unstobble Force, more Defensive talents such as the Officer talent that turns cover into improved cover, and Martial Arts 2 and 3 instead of his offensive feats, for even more insane defence).

    It just serves to highlight the scaling problems at 20th level. Even Biff cant hit himself with anything other than a Natural 20, and fights where one is simply fishing for natural 20's are drawn out slug fests and boring as bat****.
    Last edited by Malifice; 2018-08-10 at 12:10 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    First of all, I wanted to note that you missed to add the last 5 in your reflex defense calculation (shown below) leaving it at 35 instead of 40.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    A reasonably optimized Solider 20 [armored defense line] optimizing defences comes out with a Reflex defense of 10 [Base] + 2 [Dex, limited by Armor max Dex] +4 [Class] + 1 [Improved defences] + 1 [Dodge] +1 [Martial Arts] +15 [Heroic] + 5 [Armor] + 1 [Zabrak] or around 35.
    So, my criticism of the reduction in reflex defense was based on a -10 instead of a -5 relative penalty at level 20. The -5 penalty is much more reasonable, sorry about the miscommunication.

    However, a -5 penalty to will defense still has the issues that I mentioned, and characters that do not have at least two major bonuses to will defense, such as GAT (Grand army of the republic training), very high wisdom or a +4 or higher class bonus to will defense, will have significant issues with effects targeting will defense.

    Furthermore, assuming some of the most defensive builds possible as a baseline for balance seems a bit inappropriate, since this will leave all players not going for massive amounts of (well rounded) defense in a pretty bad spot. It can also shift some of the balance questions from builds, specific feats, etc, to the baseline numbers (when you boost your reflex defense by 15 points above baseline, reducing the baseline is only going to do so much, but for a character that hasn't boosted 1 defense score, that change in the baseline could be most of that characterís chance of success).


    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post

    As someone who has played the game for over a decade, there is a massive disconnect at high (and low) levels with attack bonuses (including skills that target defences) and defence scores.

    At low level skill attacks trivialise defence scores. At high level the inverse is true, with defence scores trivilaising both attacks and skills that target defences.
    I'm glad that your experience with the game covers approximately the same timeframe as mine, though your experience might be much more concentrated than mine. And I am well aware that high level defenses can make opponents hard to affect.

    However, it seems that you have forgotten some details regarding the rules:

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post

    Hypothetical 'high defence' PC fights defensively. He takes -2 to hit, for +5 to Reflex defence. We're in melee so range and cover wont help.

    Your '20th level, full BAB 20, Uber-charger' now hits on a 14+ on the charge, dropping to 19+ in following rounds.
    A PC can simply disengage and charge on subsequent turns, so there is no drop of.

    Calling a character that has spent 2 feats and a talent on offense (where only 1 requires charging) an "Uber-charger" is perhaps a bit excessive in a context where you have mapped out entire builds to maximize defense in all forms.

    Fighting defensively gives you a -5 penalty to hit, not a -2 (though there might be some feature that reduces this that I am missing)

    Fighting defensively plays a large role in your statements (you mentioned it 12 times in your last two posts), and seems to cause you a lot of grief, in addition, the difference in reflex defense between fighting defensively and not doing so is (at level 20) the same as between implementing the suggested change in defenses and not doing so. Therefore, I would remind you that technically letting characters attack with the same action as they fight defensively is a house rule, and if it is hurting the game experience, that house rule could be rescinded.

    I urge you to consider changing the way you seem to be using fighting defensively, before you go through with reducing the scaling of all defenses.

    Some minor details that you probably already know:
    About taking cover: aiming makes you ignore their cover bonuses, enhancing aiming with features also lets you increase damage and accuracy at the same time.
    About buffs from nobles: the (in my humble opinion) most notable noble bonuses are offensive ones, particularly the ones increasing attack bonuses.

    As a final note Bob and Biff are some strong defensive builds (the use of gladiator was a nice touch), neatly illustrating the power of an armored build in saga edition (and why I find GAT to be a bit overpowered), though Bob seems to have somehow given one of his levels to Biff.
    Last edited by Waar; 2018-08-12 at 03:54 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    We've never had issues hitting defenses in SAGA. Even putting particular super offensive combos aside, past a certain point the system is about inflicting flat-footed on the enemy. This is not optional, you either can, or you're bad.

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Waar View Post
    However, a -5 penalty to will defense still has the issues that I mentioned, and characters that do not have at least two major bonuses to will defense, such as GAT (Grand army of the republic training), very high wisdom or a +4 or higher class bonus to will defense, will have significant issues with effects targeting will defense.
    Few effects target Will defence other than primarily force powers and Noble talents, and most of them rely on Skill vs Attack rolls (which brings us back to the point of the thread).

    Everything else being equal, at 20th level, under core that becomes [presuming skill focus] 20 + Ability score vs 30 + class + ability score.

    There are plenty of talents, force powers and feats that boost Will Defence (A single Force powers exists that grants it +10, Wary defender feat, Improved defences, Unstoppable force, Grand Army of the Republic training, Gladiator etc), in addition to class bonuses as well, whereas increasing your Persuasion, Deception or Use the Force Skill bonuses are much harder to come by.

    In addition there are a few select classes that become immune to mind effecting powers, as are all Droids and Vehicles limiting the usefulness of Will defence attacks.

    A single Feat for the Will 'attacker' [Skill focus] vs a single Feat for the Will 'defender' [unstoppable force] and a moderate Will defence bonus of +2 (presuming ability scores of 20)=

    +25 to the attack roll vs Will defence of 42.

    The investment for both characters is the same, but the TN is 17+

    At 1st level presuming identical feats and Ability scores its +15 to the attack roll vs a Defence of 23 or a TN of 8+

    Re BAB:

    Again; we're assuming a BAB of 20 at 20th level (which is quite rare as many builds and all classes other than Jedi and Soldier) dont get full BAB. In particular the Non Heroic class sits at 3/4 BAB. We van generally assume a 15-20 range at 20th level, with 20 being the outer limit, and quite difficult to get and reasonably rare.

    Most combat options also, lower your attack bonus (rapid strike/ shot, power attack, multi attack, TWF etc)

    OTOH everyone gets +20 to defences (plus class bonuses) and not only are the feats and talents to raise reflex defence everywhere, but there are also combat options that can bump it up (cover and fight defensively).

    It's a phenomenon I have seen repeated anecdotally in my own campaigns, and have seen repetedly discussed by others online: at low level there is a serious wonkiness with Skills 'auto hitting' before it smooths out in the 'sweet spot' at mid levels, and then gets wonky again at higher levels with natural 20's needed to hit unless you specifically planned for huge attack bonuses (and avoided trap options like muti-attack, power attack etc) in order to have a chance to hit things at higher levels outside of rolling a natural 20.

    I see PCs spamming Force points to have a chance of hitting most rounds. And you can only do that once per round.

    Id much prefer the range to hit to be in the (roughly) 12+ per attack (and for those trap options like mutli-attack, power attack and so forth) to actually... stop being trap options.
    Last edited by Malifice; 2018-08-15 at 03:01 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    By the way, independent of its use in combat, were there not ways to replace many of one's skills with the Use the Force skill?

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Particle_Man View Post
    By the way, independent of its use in combat, were there not ways to replace many of one's skills with the Use the Force skill?
    Initiative, Perception, Pilot, Deception and maybe one or two more. Each costs a talent.

    One talent for one skill is a fair trade though.

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Yep. You could build a character whose shtick was "The Force makes me good at skills", and it was a fine character, but other people picked up equal goodness for the several Talents it would take you.
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post

    A single Feat for the Will 'attacker' [Skill focus] vs a single Feat for the Will 'defender' [unstoppable force] and a moderate Will defense bonus of +2 (presuming ability scores of 20)=

    +25 to the attack roll vs Will defense of 42.

    The investment for both characters is the same, but the TN is 17+
    What fraction of non-force using characters do you think would have 20 wisdom? What fraction of PCs do think have a 20 in their most used ability score, what about their second most used?

    Claiming that those two 20s are equal investments is disingenuous.

    Even with 20 wisdom, if you face a noble with 18+ cha and a (iirc) 2-7 counts as 8 talent, not using the force, with the suggested change to defenses, the noble only fails to affect you if it rolls a 1.

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    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Waar View Post
    What fraction of non-force using characters do you think would have 20 wisdom? What fraction of PCs do think have a 20 in their most used ability score, what about their second most used?
    The only non-Force-User characters that even really have a use for high Wisdom are medics (for Treat Injury) and ace pilots (for extra Starship maneuvers), but the latter particularly have a different score to optimize (Dexterity, a pilot's god-stat as much as a Force User's UTF).
    Last edited by Mando Knight; 2018-08-16 at 02:58 PM.
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    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Waar View Post
    What fraction of non-force using characters do you think would have 20 wisdom? What fraction of PCs do think have a 20 in their most used ability score, what about their second most used?

    Claiming that those two 20s are equal investments is disingenuous.

    Even with 20 wisdom, if you face a noble with 18+ cha and a (iirc) 2-7 counts as 8 talent, not using the force, with the suggested change to defenses, the noble only fails to affect you if it rolls a 1.
    The Noble has invested a talent and a feat here.

    +4 Charisma +5 skill focus +10 1/2 level +5 skill training = +24 Persuasion

    Versus another noble with a +2 class bonus to will defence, and a feat (unwavering resolve) invested:

    +3 Wisdom +15 heroic level + 2 class, +5 Unwavering resolve +10 Base = 35.

    It becomes a 50-50 chance of pulling it off (A roll of 2 to 7 still results in a fail) which drops to a 25% chance if the target is higher level then the attacker.

    Leaving it at full level to defences it becomes a 25% chance to pull off the talent and it becomes totally impossible to pull off against a higher level target (+5) with the unwavering resolve feat (+5) with an effective will defence of 40/45, barring the expenditure of a force point and a very good roll.

    Also note that most affects that target will defence are completely negated on account of immunity to mind affecting effects, The defender being of higher-level than the attacker, and in any event they all require some form of set up in order to use (Target moved down the condition track or at under half it points for example).

    I am pretty happy with a 20th level Noble with a Charisma of 18 and skill focus in persuasion having a 50-50 chance of success at using a Persuasion based talent against a creature they have set up for its use, and that is lower level than them.
    Last edited by Malifice; 2018-08-17 at 03:02 AM.

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    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Hurray! I haven't played Star Wars saga yet and now I think that I should play it. I've watched the trailer online and it's pretty much interesting. Thanks for this thread :P
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    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    The only non-Force-User characters that even really have a use for high Wisdom are medics (for Treat Injury) and ace pilots (for extra Starship maneuvers), but the latter particularly have a different score to optimize (Dexterity, a pilot's god-stat as much as a Force User's UTF).
    This is about what I figured, though I imagine quite a few characters might have a decent wisdom for perception and will defense.


    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    The Noble has invested a talent and a feat here.
    And expecting an attacker to have invested more in their particular method of attack than a defender has invested in every individual form of defense is reasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Versus another noble with a +2 class bonus to will defence, and a feat (unwavering resolve) invested:
    Tell me, if you were making a PC, with the reduced defense score scaling, and you could pick that feat twice, would you?

    Because to me it seems like you argue for a lot of feat taxes to (try to) get back to the previous level of defense scores.

    Would you suggest picking up improved damage threshold to fix that deficit as well, or is that value left behind?

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    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Waar View Post
    Tell me, if you were making a PC, with the reduced defense score scaling, and you could pick that feat twice, would you?
    If I were making a PC, I would ensure that my defences are at least as strong as my attacks. Generally I aim for scores of 40 (or as close to) by 20th level (which isnt hard to pull off).

    Unstoppable Force, Improved defences, and Wary defender are always included. I'll always be trained in Acrobatics and will Fight defensively too.

    As a poster noted above, the main threat a 20th level (or high level) PC has is being caught flat footed, which strips your ability to use reactions and denies you Dex (and dodge bonuses) to Ref defence.

    Oddly, seeing as very few NPCs have BAB's over 15 (even at late game) thanks to the Non Heroic class being 3/4 BAB (as indeed are all classes other than Soldier and Jedi) and Reflex defence being rather easy to increase, hitting a slightly optimised Reflex defence usually only happens on a natural 20 late game anyway.

    Harry the unoptimal Jedi Guardian has a Reflex defence of (Dex 20, +3 from Class, Lightsaber defence x 2, evasive target) 40 (45 when fighting defensively/ 55 vs ranged while in melee and FD) and an attack bonus of a lot less (probably 25 with the same stats, weapon finesse, rapid attack, weapon focus and s self made LS), and even then his attack bonus is about the highest you would expect for a PC or NPC.

    The problem with skills and BAB and defences scaling is best resolved via removing them entirely and replacing them with a fixed 'proficiency bonus' mirroring 5E DnD.

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    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    If I were making a PC, I would ensure that my defences are at least as strong as my attacks. Generally I aim for scores of 40 (or as close to) by 20th level (which isnt hard to pull off).

    I get that you would, but you didn't answer the question. Unwavering resolve is a seriously niche feat and hypothetically being allowed to pick and actually picking it twice could leave you unable to pick other, more desired, feats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    If I were making a PC, I would ensure that my defences are at least as strong as my attacks. Generally I aim for scores of 40 (or as close to) by 20th level (which isnt hard to pull off).

    Unstoppable Force, Improved defences, and Wary defender are always included. I'll always be trained in Acrobatics and will Fight defensively too.
    I get Unstoppable force and improved defenses, but if you want to reduce the reflex defense of your builds by 5 I would suggest looking at Fight defensively before looking at the base scores, like I said before.

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    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Waar View Post
    Unwavering resolve is a seriously niche feat and hypothetically being allowed to pick and actually picking it twice could leave you unable to pick other, more desired, feats
    Depends on the campaign. Unstoppable Force isnt; its basically mandatory in a game which features enemy force users, providing reasonable defences against the powers at lo to mid level, and nigh invulnerability at high level.

    There arent many feats and talents that target Will Defence via Deception and Persuasion that are terminal, that dont also require a fair bit of set up (Demand Surrender etc) via you being also knocked down the CT or reduced to half HP, or you getting a +5 to your Will defence on account of being higher level. Many of them also feature situational modifiers (Intimidate etc) that make it quite hard to be affected barring the encounter already turning against you hard to begin with.

    The only one I can think of the the broken Feat that lets you make a Deception check to make a creature flat-footed (spending a force point to make it stick the entire encounter). Thats a game changer of a feat. Not only do flat footed creatures lose dexterity and dodge bonuses to Reflex defence, they cant take reactions. Thats a death sentence for most Jedi.

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