How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

[thorr-kan]

I've looking for people's experience playing Saga Star Wars and Force usage. I read d20 and Revised d20 back in the day. Further back in the day, I even played d6. I liked the feats and skills approach to Force powers.

Saga's Use the Force skill really intrigues me. So if you've used it, I would love a description of how it played and your thoughts on it.

[Pleh]

I haven't seen the other systems to compare, but in Saga, Use the Force can be broken at early level.

Jedi can take training for it as a starting skill at 1st level, but they can also spend their first general feat getting Skill Focus (Use the Force). Training and Focus each give +5. Let's say we play a dedicated Force user, so we've cranked Charisma up to 18 with point buy so our race bonus pushes it to 20. At first level, we get +15 to Use the Force checks.

Not a problem, because any other character can do the same with any class skill they have, right? Well, not every other skill can be used as an attack roll like Use the Force can. But most of them come through Force Powers and this character doesn't have those yet. Well, they'll still have that +15 (actually +16 due to adding half level) by level 3 when they get another general feat. But they don't have to wait. They could take Force Training at level 1 instead to get force powers immediately (they're probably taking Mind Trick) and picking up Skill focus at level 2. If they can be satisfied with just an 18 in CHA, they can be human and use the bonus feat to gain force powers and skill focus at level 1.

Now go read some Force Powers, Force Talents, and enemy Defense scores for levels 1-5. Jedi can own the table with this build for about 10ish levels because no one else gets so much bonus to attack (or choice of defense to target) until much later.

As such, a lot of tables houserule that Skill Focus for Use the Force requires 7th level or something.

[LibraryOgre]

Basically, Use the Force is a skill being used as a combat ability. When you get high enough level, it's less of an issue... at 20th level, UTF isn't better than soldier or jedi BAB, after all (+10 for Training and SF, +10 for half level). But at level 1, you're outshining everything else, which makes it a less fun game for anyone who isn't a jedi.

[CharonsHelper]

As such, a lot of tables houserule that Skill Focus for Use the Force requires 7th level or something.

This x10.

It's still effective - but it's not too crazy so long as Skill Focus isn't allowed early.

[Nifft]

As such, a lot of tables houserule that Skill Focus for Use the Force requires 7th level or something.

I saw a post about using a scaling bonus for Skill Focus, so you don't get the full +5 at level 1... something like, you get +2 at level 1, and +5 at level 15 (or thereabouts).


Another viable scaling might be (level/3) rounded down, up to max +5 at level 15. Then it does nothing at level 1 (so don't take it at level 1), +1 at level 3, +2 at level 6, +3 at level 9... etc.

[CharonsHelper]

I saw a post about using a scaling bonus for Skill Focus, so you don't get the full +5 at level 1... something like, you get +2 at level 1, and +5 at level 15 (or thereabouts).


Another viable scaling might be (level/3) rounded down, up to max +5 at level 15. Then it does nothing at level 1 (so don't take it at level 1), +1 at level 3, +2 at level 6, +3 at level 9... etc.

Oh certainly - I'm sure that there are a number of ways that you can fix the math.

I've even heard of one variant where they just use their class level, and Skill Focus gets the same +1 as Weapon Focus: basically turning Use the Force into a full BAB roll.

[Pleh]

Oh certainly - I'm sure that there are a number of ways that you can fix the math.

I've even heard of one variant where they just use their class level, and Skill Focus gets the same +1 as Weapon Focus: basically turning Use the Force into a full BAB roll.

And why not? Aren't Jedi at full BAB anyway? Seems like a good way to even things out without just nerf batting jedi into fluff.

[CharonsHelper]

And why not? Aren't Jedi at full BAB anyway? Seems like a good way to even things out without just nerf batting jedi into fluff.

You wouldn't want to just directly use BAB.

The base Jedi class is full BAB - but not all force users are Jedi (or at least not pure Jedi classed - the system promotes multi-classing) and I believe that even some of the Jedi advanced classes are mid BAB.

But yes - the idea was to have it equivalent ti full BAB. There are other ways to boost weapon accuracy beyond - but most force powers don't need to worry about cover.

Frankly - it's been too long since I've played it to trust myself on nitty gritty balance issues.

[LibraryOgre]

My have for Skill Focus is to make it give 1/2 per level... essentially, it turns you from getting 1/2 your level bonus to skills to getting your full level as a bonus to that skill. Still useful and potent, but not as game-breaking.

[Nifft]

My have for Skill Focus is to make it give 1/2 per level... essentially, it turns you from getting 1/2 your level bonus to skills to getting your full level as a bonus to that skill. Still useful and potent, but not as game-breaking.

So it gives you +10 at level 20?

Hmm.

That would make Use the Force more competitive at high levels, rather than overwhelming at low levels.

Hmmmmmmmm.

[LibraryOgre]

So it gives you +10 at level 20?

Hmm.

That would make Use the Force more competitive at high levels, rather than overwhelming at low levels.

Hmmmmmmmm.

For added fun, remove the +5 for skill training, and make it -5 for no skill training. This puts combat on a fairly even footing with skills, and lets you freely compare them... unfocused skills are still bad, but they're on par with unproficient weapons. Since I tend towards "Everyone has 1/1 BAB and the same HD", it puts the real emphasis on your attributes, experience, and talents/feats. Someone who wants to play a Soldier picks soldier-type feats and abilities. Someone who wants to play a Jedi focuses on their Force abilities. Want to be a scoundrel? Pick scoundrely skills and talents and feats.

[Nifft]

For added fun, remove the +5 for skill training, and make it -5 for no skill training. This puts combat on a fairly even footing with skills, and lets you freely compare them... unfocused skills are still bad, but they're on par with unproficient weapons. Since I tend towards "Everyone has 1/1 BAB and the same HD", it puts the real emphasis on your attributes, experience, and talents/feats. Someone who wants to play a Soldier picks soldier-type feats and abilities. Someone who wants to play a Jedi focuses on their Force abilities. Want to be a scoundrel? Pick scoundrely skills and talents and feats.

At that point, I'd just adapt the few Saga classes to 5e rules, and use 5e spellcasting for Jedi powers (or 5e Monk ki points for Jedi powers).

Maybe you'd spend Talents to learn Force powers, then spend spell-slots (or ki points) to cast them.

... anyway. I loved Saga. I'd love more adaptations / modernizations.

[Sparx MacGyver]

For Skills, I just use the Skill Attack Modifier, or SAM for Short. It's a great alternative, and affects any skill that targets a defense, not just UtF.

[galaxia]

If your jedi is outshining everyone then the GM could be targeting the jedi more viciously. It's exceptionally easy to justify picking on them if your campaign is set during the dark times or a bit after that, too.

Fun is in the eye of the beholder, especially when the jedi has the joy of being targeted with enemies holding multiple rebukes.

Just have the enemy be more powerful than the jedi, or at least have the enemy beat the jedi at initiative. Force choke, backed by multiple rebukes, is always nice. Be sure to have enough associates (or other important tasks) to keep the jedi's party members busy and don't make them look like boring speed bumps. Make the other players feel that they're not being had.

Jedi players don't get much in terms of skills so skill challenges and the like can be a way to bore the jedi player if everyone else feels bored by that player during combat.

Jedi also don't have infinite deflect powers and some may not even prepare them. Jedi, no matter how much force use they have in early levels, are hardly immune to enough enemies firing at them.

I grew up with the old films, where being a jedi was awesome — not mundane. Play the SWTOR mmo and the whole concept of the strange and powerful jedi is thrown out the window. When everyone is special in the same way at the same time no one is. I don't think Saga is best like that. I think jedi should be more powerful but should also be the ones who bear the greater risk (and who may very well be the first to die). This is my view about wizards, too, which is why I like 1e — where the infinitely squishy (and sad dart-throwing) wizards got god-like spells like 1e Charm Person and 1e Phantasmal Force at first level. No matter how powerful those spells are, though, it's easy to tame them. Charm Person, for instance, was completely useless in a large dungeon I took part in.

There are prices to be paid for power. Just remember that as a GM and you'll be fine. I didn't GM Saga for long but I didn't find it very difficult to make combats interesting and challenging, even for veteran players. Combat is probably the easiest thing to manage in Saga, although it becomes tricky when you're dealing with ships.

[CharonsHelper]

I grew up with the old films, where being a jedi was awesome — not mundane. Play the SWTOR mmo and the whole concept of the strange and powerful jedi is thrown out the window. When everyone is special in the same way at the same time no one is. I don't think Saga is best like that. I think jedi should be more powerful but should also be the ones who bear the greater risk (and who may very well be the first to die).

That sounds kind of terrible.

Basically the Jedi get to be the main characters and everyone else is just their lackeys?

I actually really like the way Saga did it. Jedi are badasses per the mechanics - PC classes in general are very rare, and full-fledged Jedi (vs Padawan) are a minimum of level 7-8, which is pretty high. It's just that the other PCs are also badasses of a different stripe.

I'm not a fanboy and Saga Edition certainly has it's rough edges - but that is one thing where I am 100% on-board with the direction they went.

[galaxia]

That sounds kind of terrible.

Basically the Jedi get to be the main characters and everyone else is just their lackeys?

Didn't like the first three films because of Luke, Yoda, Vader, the Emperor, and Obi-Wan, eh?

Those films revolved around the force, not the mundane non-force users.

It's canon for the force to be the most important thing.

However, "lackey" is subjective.

1) Even with their force powers, jedi PCs are not gods.

2) There is more to Saga than using force powers in combat.

The demand that everyone in a group be equal is a fairly modern one. And, even today, plenty of people give advice like "Bards should be content to be in a support role" and "Wizards should make the other players feel powerful". There is so much concern over making everyone at the table feel so special. Some players, though, worry more about simply being able to contribute somehow to the story. People generally like having something meaningful to do. Sometimes they're okay with not being as glamorous as the next guy. Not everyone in a band can be the singer or wants to be, typically. There are a lot of successful musical groups with one singer and the singer is, often enough, the least happy member.

It's also hard to be a jedi's lackey if the jedi makes him/herself enough of a target to be the first one dead.

Plus, the other characters can also be jedi if they want to be.

[Knaight]

That sounds kind of terrible.

Basically the Jedi get to be the main characters and everyone else is just their lackeys?

If you implement Ars-Magica style troupe play this would work just fine, to the point of it being one of the more common suggestions of where you might use that style outside of Ars Magica. A game less combat focused would also solve this issue.

Didn't like the first three films because of Luke, Yoda, Vader, the Emperor, and Obi-Wan, eh?

Those films revolved around the force, not the mundane non-force users.

It's canon for the force to be the most important thing.

If you look at the old films the Jedi aren't just the best at everything - they're magic space knights. When they need to fight someone close up they shine, because that's what knights are good at. When they're using a small vehicle* we see Luke shine and Vader at least be generally competent, which also fits with the knight archetype pretty well, while playing to the force. That said, Han's almost certainly a better pilot than Luke in anything much larger than an X-wing. R2D2 is a much better safe cracker (which is how the hacking in the original trilogy is pretty reliably portrayed) than any Jedi. C3PO is a better translator. Leia is a better diplomat.

As for what the films revolve around, it isn't the force in general. Star Wars is a very character focused story, and Luke is the central character. Obi-wan and Yoda are fleeting mentor characters who are both there for part of one movie and who make a brief appearance later; they're not that hugely important. Darth Vader is significant because he's a personal antagonist to Luke and Luke's father. That said, Han and Leia are both major characters who get significant character arcs and significant screen time, despite neither using the force. The force itself is barely explored, keeping the attention on the characters - until the prequels, anyways. Meanwhile the world outside of these characters is barely dealt with at all. Even Alderaan being blown up is more about the drama between Vader and Leia than anything, with the billions of people living there a side note.

*Something roughly analogous to a horse, but in the future.

[Eurus]

Also, the tropes that make a fun movie don't necessarily work well in a game. Gandalf being a walking plot device in LotR doesn't mean that wizards should be like that in your D&D game, because either the wizard is solving every problem or you have to constantly come up with reasons why the wizard can't get involved this time. Someone is probably going to have less fun.

Most tabletop games are fundamentally about small squads, since that's what you tend to end up with if you follow a standard "each player controls one character" idea. That means that you usually want the cast to be at least roughly on the same level. Making the game "the chosen one and his lackeys" where most of the PCs are aforementioned lackeys can work if your group is explicitly on board with that, but a lot of players won't be.

Actually, I've seen games where it's almost the opposite of your suggestion: using some kind of resource like fate points to let the less directly powerful PCs exercise more narrative control. Really, if you have one super powerful character, you probably want them to have less spotlight focus. See the Gandalf principle again.

[CharonsHelper]

Most tabletop games are fundamentally about small squads, since that's what you tend to end up with if you follow a standard "each player controls one character" idea. That means that you usually want the cast to be at least roughly on the same level. Making the game "the chosen one and his lackeys" where most of the PCs are aforementioned lackeys can work if your group is explicitly on board with that, but a lot of players won't be.

Total tangent -

Spoiler

Show

I did actually toy around with that general idea - as a reason for the PCs to be a group and all be super bad-asses.

Basically the idea was that a single PC would be the source of magical power - a "Source", but be REALLY inefficient at using it. So instead, they would filter their power through their "Vessels" (the other PCs) who could each use the magical power far more efficiently but in very different ways.

Mechanically I was thinking something along the lines of how Warmachine/Hordes works - with the Source choosing how to allocate the magic juice and acting as a conduit while the Vessels would do most of the actual fighting.

In the end I ended up working on a Swashbuckling Space Western instead - but I still have the premise on the back-burner and have even brainstormed how to use the same core game engine to make it work.

[galaxia]

Really, if you have one super powerful character, you probably want them to have less spotlight focus. See the Gandalf principle again.

That could be part of the dark times bit that I mentioned. When you're being hunted you don't always have the luxury of being in the spotlight.

I've also played Saga and I didn't find the jedi class "super powerful" at low levels. It's strong but I would not say it's broken. Of course, I prefer using home campaigns where you can add as many snipers and such as you like.

The difference between a powerful character and the rest comes down to how much the opposition targets the characters. It's in the GM's hands.

Also, the tropes that make a fun movie don't necessarily work well in a game.

One of the most common complaints from certain players is that "It doesn't feel like Star Wars" if you don't follow the films to the letter as much as possible. Now, I'm told that following the films is a mistake.

I don't agree with the analysis above that said the force wasn't the most important factor in the original three films. Leia and Han were sidekicks to Luke. Yes, character was important but it wasn't Leia and Han growing in power and wisdom so they could defeat a bunch of non-force users in the third film. The non-force fighting is peripheral to the core.

Gandalf being a walking plot device in LotR doesn't mean that wizards should be like that in your D&D game

This is hyperbole. Look at the One Ring. Magic is barely a factor for the party. Jedi in Saga are hardly the same as Gandalf, at least not unless they're special characters at high levels.

because either the wizard is solving every problem or you have to constantly come up with reasons why the wizard can't get involved this time. Someone is probably going to have less fun.

Someone will always have less fun unless they play an MMO in disguise, which is what I'm told 4th edition D&D feels like.

When everything is totally balanced then no one has fun. The key is to give players opportunities to shine at different times rather than expecting them to be the equal of the other characters in all circumstances.

Most tabletop games are fundamentally about small squads, since that's what you tend to end up with if you follow a standard "each player controls one character" idea. That means that you usually want the cast to be at least roughly on the same level. Making the game "the chosen one and his lackeys" where most of the PCs are aforementioned lackeys can work if your group is explicitly on board with that, but a lot of players won't be.

Or they can just play jedi. In the games I organized I gave everyone the opportunity to do that and many players chose to play other kinds of characters. Being all-powerful wasn't the main attraction. The main attraction was playing a concept that appealed to them.

Star Wars isn't supposed to be 4th edition D&D. Different characters are supposed to shine at different times, not all be the same mechanically only with a different skin of flavor on top.

[Pleh]

I've also played Saga and I didn't find the jedi class "super powerful" at low levels. It's strong but I would not say it's broken. Of course, I prefer using home campaigns where you can add as many snipers and such as you like.

Then you seem to have never discovered that Jedi can have Skill Training and Skill Focus for +10 to Use the Force at level 1, then use this skill check for making attacks, negating attacks, mind rape tricking every guard and important NPC to their will, automatically succeeding on checks to ignore concealment when noticing trouble (if you doubt: Training and Focus give +10, pick a race with bonus to Charisma and it's not hard to get a score of 18 for +4 to checks and you can't roll lower than 1, so you have a base 15 check result and the system doesn't autofail skill checks on a natural 1), and in the next 5 levels taking Force Talents that allow them to apply their Use the Force skill in place of other critical skills like Pilot, Initiative, Perception, and more.

A Force Focused Jedi that optimizes can trivialize the game at low level. The game tends to balance out a bit at higher level, but oddly enough, Padawans are a more dangerous threat *relative to their level* than Jedi Masters tend to be.

The difference between a powerful character and the rest comes down to how much the opposition targets the characters. It's in the GM's hands.

Ah, an old logic fallacy carried over from 3.5: "It's not imbalanced if the DM can adjust the difficulty to compensate."

We all know the answer is: "the need for the DM to compensate is the exact proof that the game is imbalanced."

Not to mention the problem of suggesting that a certain class being not too powerful because the encounters can be adjusted. You're not doing T5 party members any favors by cranking the difficulty to match the T1 casters in the party to keep them busy. The T5s will get killed in the cross fire and still be unable to meaningfully contribute.

One of the most common complaints from certain players is that "It doesn't feel like Star Wars" if you don't follow the films to the letter as much as possible. Now, I'm told that following the films is a mistake.

It's almost as if different people like different kinds of star wars games...

I don't agree with the analysis above that said the force wasn't the most important factor in the original three films. Leia and Han were sidekicks to Luke. Yes, character was important but it wasn't Leia and Han growing in power and wisdom so they could defeat a bunch of non-force users in the third film. The non-force fighting is peripheral to the core.

Read some of the books and play some of the games. The Force is what makes the Galaxy go round, but there's a LOT of people who live their entire lives in the Galaxy and never see the Force or Jedi or Sith or anything like it. A lot of folks in the galaxy think those kooky wizards and their religious disputes to be superstitious and harmful to the Galaxy at large.

Point is that Jedi aren't the only people in the Galaxy worth telling stories about. Boba Fett and Han Solo represent the Forceless Wild West society that lives underneath the Space Wizards dueling in the clouds. Jedi aren't going to stoop to normal delivery jobs, but someone still needs to deliver stuff, so you get the normal people in the universe too. But the Galaxy is a dangerous place, so there's a ton of reason for these normal people to be heroic and proficient with extraordinary skills. They still don't need no stinking Force to get by.

When everything is totally balanced then no one has fun. The key is to give players opportunities to shine at different times rather than expecting them to be the equal of the other characters in all circumstances.

But you said the games should be like the movies and that the movies always made the Force most important. How are each of the players going to have opportunities to shine at different times if the Force is always in the spotlight?

Also, strawman argument: no one here was suggesting that all characters should be equal in all circumstances. You're arguing against an idea no one here has defended.

Making sure that characters other than Jedi can compete with Jedi is exactly HOW you ensure that each character gets a chance to shine at different moments.

If the only way to compete with Jedi is to become a Jedi, then every party should be a group of Jedi, which can be fun for a bit, but damages the game's replay value because it severely limits character diversity.

Some people want to play as Han Solo, or Boba Fett, or R2D2, or Leia, or Lando, etc. They don't want to play as sidekicks to some Jedi. It should be possible to do both of these things.

[thorr-kan]

Then you seem to have never discovered that Jedi can have Skill Training and Skill Focus for +10 to Use the Force at level 1

I wonder....

For SWSE, the skill calculation goes:
1d20 + One-Half Your Character Level + Key Ability Modifier + Miscellaneous Modifiers

For d20 SRD, the skill calculation goes:
1d20 + Skill Rank + Key Ability Modifier + Miscellaneous Modifiers.

Skill Training and it's +5 bonus, as a thing, doesn't exist in d20 Modern/d20 DnD SRD. So that's a +5 bonus in SWSE that doesn't exist in d20 SRD. Without Skill Training or synergy bonuses, would Use the Force be as abusable at 1st level?

[Pleh]

I wonder....

For SWSE, the skill calculation goes:
1d20 + One-Half Your Character Level + Key Ability Modifier + Miscellaneous Modifiers

For d20 SRD, the skill calculation goes:
1d20 + Skill Rank + Key Ability Modifier + Miscellaneous Modifiers.

Skill Training and it's +5 bonus, as a thing, doesn't exist in d20 Modern/d20 DnD SRD. So that's a +5 bonus in SWSE that doesn't exist in d20 SRD. Without Skill Training or synergy bonuses, would Use the Force be as abusable at 1st level?

Let's compare with 3.5

A Rogue that wants to be good at Use Magic Device at first level can have 4 Ranks + 4 Cha Bonus + 3 Skill Focus + 2 Magical Aptitude for +13 to their check.

But now the Rogue has invested almost all their variable character options to optimize their use of costly, consumable magic items they are not guaranteed to have access to (and not all of or even the best of which can be used for making attacks). Meanwhile a Jedi with Use the Force have many Force Powers that naturally reset after a minute of not being in an encounter and many of which take the form of attacks that can really dominate a combat or even change the field of battle. Better yet, unless the GM is being particularly restrictive, the Jedi gets to choose exactly which powers to put into their Force Suite and must pay exactly nothing in exchange.

The end result numbers and resources expended are comparable. To compare the return on investment, you have to hope the DM lets the Rogue get their pick of magic items to use and isn't rolling on the random item generator table.

[CharonsHelper]

Skill Training and it's +5 bonus, as a thing, doesn't exist in d20 Modern/d20 DnD SRD. So that's a +5 bonus in SWSE that doesn't exist in d20 SRD. Without Skill Training or synergy bonuses, would Use the Force be as abusable at 1st level?

As was delved into early in the thread, it's mainly the +5 from Skill Focus which makes it OP for the first few levels. Sure, even without Skill Focus it can still be a few points higher than an attack roll for the first two or four levels, but the limitations on how often force powers can be used at low levels keep it from dominating at that point without the extra +5.

[thorr-kan]

As was delved into early in the thread, it's mainly the +5 from Skill Focus which makes it OP for the first few levels. Sure, even without Skill Focus it can still be a few points higher than an attack roll for the first two or four levels, but the limitations on how often force powers can be used at low levels keep it from dominating at that point without the extra +5.

Note I was talking about Skill Training, not Skill Focus.

But I see my confusion. I was counting Skill Training as a feat the gives an additional +5 not realizing it simply adds a skill to your list of trained skills. So I was thinking +10 total.

Skill Focus in d20 Modern/DnD SRD is only a +3 bonus.

[Friv]

Then you seem to have never discovered that Jedi can have Skill Training and Skill Focus for +10 to Use the Force at level 1, then use this skill check for making attacks, negating attacks, mind rape tricking every guard and important NPC to their will, automatically succeeding on checks to ignore concealment when noticing trouble (if you doubt: Training and Focus give +10, pick a race with bonus to Charisma and it's not hard to get a score of 18 for +4 to checks and you can't roll lower than 1, so you have a base 15 check result and the system doesn't autofail skill checks on a natural 1), and in the next 5 levels taking Force Talents that allow them to apply their Use the Force skill in place of other critical skills like Pilot, Initiative, Perception, and more.

A quibble - it is actually impossible to get a score of 18 prior to Level 4 in Star Wars Saga, because neither point buy nor array allows starting scores about 15, no race provides more than a +2, and there's no other way to get Charisma. So your highest starting Charisma is +3.

That said - Skill Focus is broken at low levels. Being a Jedi makes it more obvious, but it's a simple fact that's generally agreed and it applies to a number of skills.

Without the Focus, a Jedi character is limited to a maximum of +8, which is a lot more reasonable given that you're usually testing against defenses of 12-15 at low levels, and if you're taking a lot of Talents to Use The Force for other things you aren't taking them for the cool tricks that other players have.

On top of that, Use the Force requires Force Sensivity, so you can't look at it in a vacuum. Either you're spending your only starting feat on it, or you're a Jedi. And if you're a Jedi, you have one less skill than a Soldier (the only other class with a good BAB and HP) and can't use as many weapons or armour, so your Use The Force is already pulling extra duty. And if you're a Jedi, you are hilariously MAD. You need Wisdom for your Force Powers, Charisma for your Force bonus, and your build is physical and thus asks for some physical stuff. Your dump stat is likely to be Intelligence, which means even fewer skills. (By comparison, a Soldier can easily pick whether they want Int, Wis, or Cha as a decent bonus.)

[Cluedrew]

R2D2 is a much better safe cracker (which is how the hacking in the original trilogy is pretty reliably portrayed) than any Jedi.

Oh... its true! I never realized that until just now.

I don't have much to say about "Use the Force" as I haven't played Star Wars Saga. I have some opinions about Jedi though although they boil down to "if the deciding factor is the lightsaber you are doing something terribly wrong."

[CharonsHelper]

A quibble - it is actually impossible to get a score of 18 prior to Level 4 in Star Wars Saga, because neither point buy nor array allows starting scores about 15, no race provides more than a +2, and there's no other way to get Charisma. So your highest starting Charisma is +3.

Incorrect. There are three methods of stats in the core book.

1. Standard 4d6 discard lowest, only with an extra that with a modifier of less than +1 total you should start over.

2. Point buy - the same as in 3.5. I don't know why you don't think that you can't purchase an 18. You can, it just costs 16 of your 25 total points. So - going with an 18 CHA before species would be a pretty extreme min/max since you still need WIS for force powers & decent physical scores, but it's possible to start with a 20 CHA using point-buy. An 18 after species (buy a 16 for 10 points) is pretty reasonable for something like an Ithorian force-based build.

3. An array. (15/14/13/12/10/8) This is the one you're thinking of. Maybe your group only used this one and/or a house-ruled point-buy?

[Friv]

Incorrect. There are three methods of stats in the core book.

1. Standard 4d6 discard lowest, only with an extra that with a modifier of less than +1 total you should start over.

2. Point buy - the same as in 3.5. I don't know why you don't think that you can't purchase an 18. You can, it just costs 16 of your 25 total points. So - going with an 18 CHA before species would be a pretty extreme min/max since you still need WIS for force powers & decent physical scores, but it's possible to start with a 20 CHA using point-buy. An 18 after species (buy a 16 for 10 points) is pretty reasonable for something like an Ithorian force-based build.

3. An array. (15/14/13/12/10/8) This is the one you're thinking of. Maybe your group only used this one and/or a house-ruled point-buy?

I stand corrected! Our own game did use Array, but I thought that the point buy option looked like the one in 5E that cuts out early, and definitely did not remember rolling as an option. It has obviously been too long since I last played.

[CharonsHelper]

I stand corrected! Our own game did use Array, but I thought that the point buy option looked like the one in 5E that cuts out early, and definitely did not remember rolling as an option. It has obviously been too long since I last played.

*shrug*

I'd read over it not too long ago (I'm a big fan of the vibe of the intro - so I modeled my own game's off of it somewhat) but I still had to pull out my book to be 100% sure.

For what it's worth - I'm kinda a fan of stat array in general for d20 (though I like having 2-3 options, and my group almost never goes along with it) and Saga especially seems like a good candidate due to allow more skill based characters to mostly keep up in combat.