Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 83
  1. - Top - End - #31
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Mid-Rohan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Friv View Post
    A quibble - it is actually impossible to get a score of 18 prior to Level 4 in Star Wars Saga, because neither point buy nor array allows starting scores about 15, no race provides more than a +2, and there's no other way to get Charisma. So your highest starting Charisma is +3.

    That said - Skill Focus is broken at low levels. Being a Jedi makes it more obvious, but it's a simple fact that's generally agreed and it applies to a number of skills.

    Without the Focus, a Jedi character is limited to a maximum of +8, which is a lot more reasonable given that you're usually testing against defenses of 12-15 at low levels, and if you're taking a lot of Talents to Use The Force for other things you aren't taking them for the cool tricks that other players have.

    On top of that, Use the Force requires Force Sensivity, so you can't look at it in a vacuum. Either you're spending your only starting feat on it, or you're a Jedi. And if you're a Jedi, you have one less skill than a Soldier (the only other class with a good BAB and HP) and can't use as many weapons or armour, so your Use The Force is already pulling extra duty. And if you're a Jedi, you are hilariously MAD. You need Wisdom for your Force Powers, Charisma for your Force bonus, and your build is physical and thus asks for some physical stuff. Your dump stat is likely to be Intelligence, which means even fewer skills. (By comparison, a Soldier can easily pick whether they want Int, Wis, or Cha as a decent bonus.)
    Charonshelper has already picked up the 18 stat bonus bit.

    Yes, optimizing Use the Force means you either Start Jedi, or Spend a Feat, but remember that Humans still get a bonus feat at first level AND a bonus trained skill.

    As for MAD, it's actually not as bad as it seems for a Force Focused Jedi. You almost don't even need a Lightsaber.

    First off, you make sure you have at least +2 mod to Wis and Cha, probably more like +3 and +4 depending on whether you prefer to have more Force Power Slots or more potent Force Abilities (mostly a matter of taste as either can be effective when you're pressing the win button). Don't let your Con get too low, but just avoid negative modifiers everywhere else as best you can.

    The book prescribes 25 Point Buy (as the easiest legal method for me to use for demonstration), so I'll choose 14 Wis and 16 Cha for 16 points. With 9 points left, I'll spend 8 points to level all the others off to 10 so there's no negatives (if I want more Con, let's dump either Int or Str).

    Ithorian works, though Yarkora has the same stat distribution so pick your poison on racial abilities if you want. While the +2 to Wis and Cha is nice, I can also just go for Human and pick up a copy of Force Trainin. If I really want to get "cheesy," let's pick Near Human from Unknown Regions, drop the human bonus Skill Training, keep the human Bonus Feat, and grab a +2 to either Wis or Cha (probably dump either Str or Int).

    So my level 1 Near Human Jedi has:

    Str 7 Dex 10 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 18
    Skill Training: Use the Force (from Jedi Class)
    Skill Focus: Use the Force (General Feat 1)
    Force Training (Human Bonus Feat)
    Talent: Force Focus

    This character has 1d20+14 on Use the Force checks, 3 Force Powers per encounter, and as a Full Round Action can make a Use the Force check (that they cannot fail) to regain a spent Force Power of their choice so hunker down next to full cover and meditate for a few seconds (in fact, why not just always stick to at least partial cover until you have the opportunity to pick up Deflect).

    Let's pick Force Slam at least once: a 6 sq cone that uses my Use the Force check against each target's Fort Defense to deal 4d6 Force Damage and knock them prone, or half damage and no prone on a miss. Pause and reflect: A lightsaber could do 2d8+str mod+half level damage against one opponent. Force Slam deals 4d6 (or half damage) against each creature in a 6 sq cone.

    For General purpose, how about Mind Trick? The most useful application typically being a Suggestion spell with a +14 bonus against Will. This is at level 1.

    Pick your favorite third option, but Surge is looking pretty nifty considering we automatically get the second best possible result just for rolling (which gives +20 to Jump and increases speed by 4 squares). Consider it our Jedi's Expeditious Retreat spell.

    Then again, since we opted not to use our Lightsaber for Deflect (which is a very valid option, considering enemy attacks we wish to negate are opposed by our Use the Force check, so that will Deflect A LOT of attacks at early levels), we might prefer to have Negate Energy to stop the random blaster bolt that breezes past our allies.

    Then again, if your DM allows it, always take Fold Space if it's on the table. There's nothing better than teleporting an active thermal detonator into the enemy's cockpit or back pocket. It's not an auto success yet, but it will be soon.

    But if you know you want to be a Blaster Jedi, just pick 3 of your favorite Telekinetic Type Force Powers (or just 3 iterations of Force Slam) and swap out Force Focus for Telekinetic Savant. You'll be more Combat Focused, with all the pros and cons that come with that.

    "But you have no other skills!"

    All in due time, my young apprentice. Remember that every time you could normally take a talent, you can take a Force Talent instead.

    Want to be a pilot? Force Pilot has your back.

    Want to be a scout? Force Perception is there.

    Want to act earlier in combat? Force Intuition will guide you.

    Want to be the party Face? Force Persuasion knows the trick.

    Need to hide your Jedi Identity? Force Deception has what you need.

    Want to be stealthy? Well, you'll need permission from your DM to access the White Current Adept Alternate Force Tradition, but they have it. (But usually a well placed Mind Trick will get the job done anyway).

    Want to be the medic? Well, you'll have to wait for PrCs (Jedi Knight or Force Adept), but it's there. Jedi Knights can also Use the Force for Knowledge checks.

    Acrobatics? Kro Var Alternate Force Tradition (but the Surge Force Power is usually sufficient).

    And further remember that with a small amount of retooling this character build, you can access the wonders of being a Force Sensitive Crime Lord. It's a little late in the game, to the point that your fantastic Skill Focus is no longer as dominating of the field of play, but take a single dip into Scoundrel or Nobel to pick up the talents and feats for Crime Lord and look again at how that particular Prestige Class gains a new Talent...

    at every level.

    Choose your Force Tradition wisely.

    Then Attract a Padawan Minion who is good with Lightsabers to form a defense grid for you and Command Cover from which you can bombard the battlefield with your (by this later level) many Force Powers.
    Last edited by Pleh; 2018-06-22 at 10:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Some play RPG's like chess, some like charades.

    Everyone has their own jam.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Friv's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pleh View Post
    Skill Focus: Use the Force (General Feat 1)
    Objection!

    Everyone has agreed that Skill Focus: Use the Force is a problem. Our disagreement is whether there is a problem with Use the Force (and with Jedi in general) without Skill Focus being in play.

    If your argument is that it's possible to build characters who are highly optimized in Star Wars Saga, well, sure. But without that extra +5, your Jedi is no more absurd that a tricked-out super-pilot or an over-the-top Condition-lock sniper (or grappler) or a ridiculous droid bodyguard-Soldier.

    And your Jedi has massive weaknesses. It's all well and good to say that you can keep picking up Talents, but that takes time. Your Reflex defense is 12 at game start, low enough that you're a magnet for people trying to kill you after you Force Crush the first one - and hunkering down behind cover only helps if you're in an area where you can get cover against everyone. You're totally useless in space until you get enough levels to sacrifice precious Talents for those skills, which key off your poor Intelligence and Dex otherwise.
    Last edited by Friv; 2018-06-23 at 12:19 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Mid-Rohan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Friv View Post
    Objection!

    Everyone has agreed that Skill Focus: Use the Force is a problem. Our disagreement is whether there is a problem with Use the Force (and with Jedi in general) without Skill Focus being in play.

    If your argument is that it's possible to build characters who are highly optimized in Star Wars Saga, well, sure. But without that extra +5, your Jedi is no more absurd that a tricked-out super-pilot or an over-the-top Condition-lock sniper (or grappler) or a ridiculous droid bodyguard-Soldier.

    And your Jedi has massive weaknesses. It's all well and good to say that you can keep picking up Talents, but that takes time. Your Reflex defense is 12 at game start, low enough that you're a magnet for people trying to kill you after you Force Crush the first one - and hunkering down behind cover only helps if you're in an area where you can get cover against everyone. You're totally useless in space until you get enough levels to sacrifice precious Talents for those skills, which key off your poor Intelligence and Dex otherwise.
    You seem to miss the point.

    The point is that a super tricked pilot can only use pilot to maneuver vehicles.

    A jedi can use the force to do just about anything.

    We're comparing rogues to sorcerers.

    Edit: further thoughts

    Pick up some armor for the lower levels. Use the Force has no Armor Check Penalty, IIRC.

    Want to be useful in space? Read the force powers more carefully: you can Fold Space around a starship you occupy. Also read the added skill uses in Starships of the galaxy and remember that talents that substitute UtF for skill mods apply whenever you use those skills.

    Also remember, being brokenly powerful doesn't necessarily mean able to do everything solo. It just means being able tp do unfairly more than contemporaries of the same level. Need an ace pilot, but don't get Force Pilot for 2 levels? Mind Trick a pilot into ferrying you around.

    The Force is your ally. You are going to win.
    Last edited by Pleh; 2018-06-23 at 02:01 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Friv's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pleh View Post
    You seem to miss the point.

    The point is that a super tricked pilot can only use pilot to maneuver vehicles.

    A jedi can use the force to do just about anything.
    Can you really, though? You spent your first Talent on the ability to attack every other turn. At Level 3 you can pick up one skill. At Level 5 you now have two skills that you can Use the Force for. And that sacrifices your three useful Jedi talents in exchange for having two skills and a reclaim ability. The tricked-out pilot can spend those talents on piloting-related talents, and be a much better pilot than you.

    You're not so much a sorcerer as a jack of all trades.

    You can go Crime Lord, but that means sacrificing a lot more - you need to do it at Level 2 so that you can spend your Level 3 and Level 6 feats on skill training, so at Level 7 you're short a Talent, you've spent two feats on social skills, you're giving up all your low-level Talents for a few more skills, and you're closing yourself out from the more powerful Force traditions you get as a Jedi Knight or Master, Force Disciple, or Sith.

    That's certainly a way to use the Jedi chassis to build a Noble with Force Sensitivity.

    Pick up some armor for the lower levels. Use the Force has no Armor Check Penalty, IIRC.
    No, but Initiative does, and so do a lot of other stuff. You can lift yourself around with the force, but that is going to be slow.

    Want to be useful in space? Read the force powers more carefully: you can Fold Space around a starship you occupy. Also read the added skill uses in Starships of the galaxy and remember that talents that substitute UtF for skill mods apply whenever you use those skills.
    Sure, but when can you buy them? They aren't Jedi Bonus Feats, and you're spending all your bonus feats on getting into Crime Lord so that you have more skills.

    As for Fold Space, good luck with that DC 35 roll before very high levels. And even then, it only gets you out of combat. It doesn't win a starfight against someone who's been buying starship Talents.

    Also remember, being brokenly powerful doesn't necessarily mean able to do everything solo. It just means being able tp do unfairly more than contemporaries of the same level. Need an ace pilot, but don't get Force Pilot for 2 levels? Mind Trick a pilot into ferrying you around.
    Without Skill Focus, that may not go the way you want, and if it doesn't you're in trouble.

    Look, again, I'm not saying that you don't have a strong build. I just disagree that it's as overwhelming as you think, compared to equally strong builds that do other things in the game.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Superhero in the Playground Moderator
     
    Mark Hall's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    A big flaw, IMO, of most d20-based games was flat bonuses, instead of level-linked or ratioed bonuses.

    Weapon Focus is a flat +1 to hit. Useful at level 1, nigh useless at level 20. Skill Focus is a +x to a skill; great at level 1, not so much at level 20.
    The Cranky Gamer
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
    *Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
    *Savage Scrolls: A Savage Worlds/Elder Scrolls Conversion
    *The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
    Avatar is from local user Mehangel
    API Anthology 1 from Drivethru RPG.
    If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Right behind you!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    A big flaw, IMO, of most d20-based games was flat bonuses, instead of level-linked or ratioed bonuses.

    Weapon Focus is a flat +1 to hit. Useful at level 1, nigh useless at level 20. Skill Focus is a +x to a skill; great at level 1, not so much at level 20.
    I've gotta disagree. So long as the math works and you have a shot of missing your target, that +1 is just as useful at 20 as at 1. Especially since it can stack with every other +1 you can grab.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    russdm's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    By Bellevue, WA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    The better starting out Force Talent, is the one that gives you Damage Reduction for a number of rounds. Or Damage Reduction 10 for 1 round, more? since it helps more.

    Spending Force Talents for Skills is only good if your bonus in UtF is simply that higher, and the one that needs to be gotten is for Initiative. You can grab the one for perception, but the Initiative one is life or death for the character, because it means that you get time to act before others do.

    As for Force Powers:
    You are better off getting a higher wisdom so you net more Force Powers, with a lower cost with have skill focus UtF, since then you have more to play with. Force Training only gives 1+WisdomModifier, or just WisdomModifier, so you want powers that are very likely to work.

    The highest you'll want your Charisma to be is 17/18. That gives a total bonus with SF UtF of +13 because you can also spend Force Points to add a d6 to the roll. So picking the Feat Strong in the Force to get d8s is better. Your wisdom needs to be higher, Mininium should be 18.

    Your wisdom determines how many Dark Side Points you can earn before getting GMed on the character. And this will really matter for Jedi Characters, because there are a staggering amount of really good Dark Side powers. Dark Rage is good, several other books have good ones. Plus you can earn DS points through easy other methods.


    Wisdom also decides your will save, which would be useful, but also helps with Force Powers. So I would try to have a higher Wisdom than Charisma always with making Force Sensitive. I don't remember if flaws exist or are allowed, but you can do with a lower Charisma, but if you are going Force Power style, you want the Wisdom. If you are looking to abuse UtF, then yeah get a higher Charisma than Wisdom, but you only get spent powers later after encounters, other special events, and you have to spend Force Points some. Of which you only have a few to start with and won't get more until you level.

    Force Powers work as single use items, you use it, and then get it back later. It takes some special stuff to get them back during combat, but when not in combat, you can them back sooner. So there is that to seriously consider.
    Last edited by russdm; 2018-06-26 at 07:04 PM.
    Blog Read and Comment! I use green for joking and Blue for sarcasm.
    Published two Kindle Books on Amazon, both are 99 cents. Ask Me about them!
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Wookiee. 2 E's. [I am obsessed with this]
    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    Somewhere, Conan the Barbarian refuses to weep, and instead curses Crom for permitting WotC to botch his class so badly.
    Quote Originally Posted by eaglewingz View Post
    "Hey, have you any idea what these strange symbols are?"
    My First Let's Play -- Temporary Haitus (I plan to get back to it eventually)

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Nifft's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    A big flaw, IMO, of most d20-based games was flat bonuses, instead of level-linked or ratioed bonuses.

    Weapon Focus is a flat +1 to hit. Useful at level 1, nigh useless at level 20. Skill Focus is a +x to a skill; great at level 1, not so much at level 20.
    Really depends whether your adversaries advance in lockstep with you.

    IIRC in Saga the adversary scaling was supposed to be pretty lockstep.

    (But I might be wrong about that -- been a while since I played Saga.)

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pleh View Post
    I haven't seen the other systems to compare, but in Saga, Use the Force can be broken at early level.

    Jedi can take training for it as a starting skill at 1st level, but they can also spend their first general feat getting Skill Focus (Use the Force). Training and Focus each give +5. Let's say we play a dedicated Force user, so we've cranked Charisma up to 18 with point buy so our race bonus pushes it to 20. At first level, we get +15 to Use the Force checks.

    Not a problem, because any other character can do the same with any class skill they have, right? Well, not every other skill can be used as an attack roll like Use the Force can. But most of them come through Force Powers and this character doesn't have those yet. Well, they'll still have that +15 (actually +16 due to adding half level) by level 3 when they get another general feat. But they don't have to wait. They could take Force Training at level 1 instead to get force powers immediately (they're probably taking Mind Trick) and picking up Skill focus at level 2. If they can be satisfied with just an 18 in CHA, they can be human and use the bonus feat to gain force powers and skill focus at level 1.

    Now go read some Force Powers, Force Talents, and enemy Defense scores for levels 1-5. Jedi can own the table with this build for about 10ish levels because no one else gets so much bonus to attack (or choice of defense to target) until much later.

    As such, a lot of tables houserule that Skill Focus for Use the Force requires 7th level or something.
    It's an issue, but at low level you are somewhat limited in the number of force powers you can spam in an encounter.

    The best counter from a DMs position is simply lots of enemies in a battle. 'Oh you Force Gripped a Stormtrooper? Nice work. Now its the other 9 Stormtroopers turns. They'll blast... the Jedi.''

    The second counter is range. Most force powers have ranges of 6 or 12 squares.

    Mechanically speaking the best solution is a Skill attack bonus. This exists separate and parallel to your skill bonus.

    Your Skill Attack Bonus (SAB) is equal to your Character level + Charisma modifier. Skill Focus provides a +2 bonus to SAB as well as the skill bonus. Non Trained skills are at -5 to SAB.

    When you activate a force power with an attack roll you roll once, and apply your skill bonus to that roll to determine degree of success, and you apply your SAB to the die roll to see if you hit.

    Example:

    A 4th level Human Jedi has a Charisma of 18, and Skill training and Focus (UTF). His Skill bonus for UTF is +16 (2 from Heroic level, 4 from Charisma, 5 from training and 5 from Focus). His SAB is +10 (4 from Heroic level, 4 from Charisma, 2 from Focus).

    On his turn he decides to Force Grip an elite Solider (Fort Defence 20). He rolls his D20 and rolls a 10. His check result for the skill is (10 + Skill bonus 16) or 26 (to determine level of success) and his Skill attack result is 20 (10 + SAB of 10). He lands the Force Grip.


    ---------------------------

    I was actually looking at SAGA the other day and trying to unify defenses, skills and BAB to get bonuses that are roughly half heroic level (+/- 5 for Focus/ Training) and (+/- 5 for Ability score) by 20th level.

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    For added fun, remove the +5 for skill training, and make it -5 for no skill training. This puts combat on a fairly even footing with skills, and lets you freely compare them... unfocused skills are still bad, but they're on par with unproficient weapons.
    Thats... brilliant.

    I was trying to do something similar the other day, but that never occurred to me.

    Skills, Defences and BAB are (1/2) Character level (Wizard BAB). 0, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4 etc progression.

    Skill and Weapon focus grant (2/3) Character level to Skill or BAB (Cleric BAB) when using that skill or weapon. 0, 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 6, 6, etc

    Untrained skills and Non proficient weapons get -5.

    Defences get bonuses from Heroic level (Standard heroic bonuses from class) and Feats (Improved defences) and Talents (Armored defense etc).

    That gets me a neat 5/10/15 spread over 20 levels (+ or minus Ability scores) with starting defenses in the 10-15 range and starting attack and skill bonuses with proficient weapons in the +5 or so range.

    At 20th you're shooting/ using the force at at +20 (presuming ability score of 20) against an average Defence score of (again 20th level, ability score +5, Class bonus +3) of 28. A 'pimped out' Reflex defence would be in the range of [10 (base) +1 (Zabrak) +1 (Improved Defence) +1 (Dodge/ Martial Arts) +5 (Armored defence, improved) + 3 (Dexterity, modified armor) +10 (half level) +4 (Heroic class bonus)] or 35.

    A bonus of +20 (Weapon focus with the weapon, Dex 20) needing a 15 to hit sounds about right without being a flurry of misses (and it brings double and triple attack into play a bit more often).

    I like it. Maybe mix up the bonus that focus gives you at 1st level, and remove the +1 BAB requirement from weapon focus.

    You could bump it up to (Cleric BAB for proficient/ Fighter BAB for focused) but I prefer lower numbers in order to keep more basic mooks a threat for longer (and to keep the math down).
    Last edited by Malifice; 2018-07-09 at 12:51 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Troll in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2007

    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pleh View Post
    I haven't seen the other systems to compare, but in Saga, Use the Force can be broken at early level.
    Overpowered, maybe, broken no. "Broken" implies making the system unplayable, and UtF cannot do that.

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Mid-Rohan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by emeraldstreak View Post
    Overpowered, maybe, broken no. "Broken" implies making the system unplayable, and UtF cannot do that.
    Well, if we're getting that far into semantics, ANY system is playable if you try hard enough.

    Why not do a campaign where every character in the universe is Pun Pun? It's playable.

    UtF most certainly can own the game at literally every turn if you don't know how to account for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Some play RPG's like chess, some like charades.

    Everyone has their own jam.

  13. - Top - End - #43
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pleh View Post
    Well, if we're getting that far into semantics, ANY system is playable if you try hard enough.

    Why not do a campaign where every character in the universe is Pun Pun? It's playable.

    UtF most certainly can own the game at literally every turn if you don't know how to account for it.
    If a PC intentionally tries to break the game by building some kind of force wizard, yeah sure. Same deal with CT snipers though.

    That said, both are flaws with the system.

    As well as being unreasonably and unecessary complex and crunchy in places.

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Superhero in the Playground Moderator
     
    Mark Hall's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    If a PC intentionally tries to break the game by building some kind of force wizard, yeah sure. Same deal with CT snipers though.

    That said, both are flaws with the system.

    As well as being unreasonably and unecessary complex and crunchy in places.
    I have less problem with CT snipers because those are a build... they take some degree of system mastery to acquire, and a few levels of work.

    A "force wizard" doesn't really require much to start off very powerful. "Well, I want to be a Jedi, so I'm going to be a Jedi. I want to use the force a lot, so I should take Skill Focus in Use the Force. And let's take some feats that give me a lot of powers."

    Is it a build? Yes. But it doesn't require much more than "I want to be effective, so let's make some obvious choices" to be scarily effective at almost everything.
    The Cranky Gamer
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
    *Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
    *Savage Scrolls: A Savage Worlds/Elder Scrolls Conversion
    *The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
    Avatar is from local user Mehangel
    API Anthology 1 from Drivethru RPG.
    If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.

  15. - Top - End - #45
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Euphonistan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    A big flaw, IMO, of most d20-based games was flat bonuses, instead of level-linked or ratioed bonuses.

    Weapon Focus is a flat +1 to hit. Useful at level 1, nigh useless at level 20. Skill Focus is a +x to a skill; great at level 1, not so much at level 20.
    Good thing you said most. That holds true to various extents from older D&D through AD&D and 3e but does not hold true in 4e and 5e (for the most part). 4e due to how so long as you fight something that is close to your level in power (which is the expectation most of the time) so that +1 is always important and in 5e they do it by making the overall numbers not go as high which means the +1 also does not lose value.
    A vestige for me "Pyro火gnus Friend of Meepo" by Zaydos.

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...5&postcount=26

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    russdm's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    By Bellevue, WA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    People here are forgetting the most important bit: If you are using the Force quite a lot then you should probably get a visit from agents of the Empire. Or depending on the era, you ought to be fighting Sith and Dark Jedi rather a lot. Or enemy reborn, etc. It really ought to be an issue in the era you play in.

    Between UtF abuse? and CT Sniper, I think the CT sniper wins on brokenness. Once you get it good, you can completely destroy opponents in a few shots, plus the penalty for falling down the track always applies and builds on the next one. I also think it can be done by level 7? level 9? to one shot folks like Vader.

    Wasting Talents, which you only get every 3 levels, to use other skills with UtF mod requires losing picking up Jedi stuff.

    If UtF is a really big issue, you can make modifiers, but the Skill Focus applies as +5 to any skill it gets done with, and everyone is always getting the +5 for Skill Training, so you do have to remove the +5 for every skill to justify doing it with the UtF employment or expect complaining.

    I mean though, one of the biggest thrills of Star Wars is playing a Jedi or some of the other character types.

    Maybe apply creatures that make the Force less usable.

    The problem you are not getting:

    UtF modifier at level 20 is going to be whopping +25 (Skill Training +5, Skill Focus +5, Half-Level +10, Maxed Out Charisma 20 +5), You have to burn a force point and make a Force Dice Roll to get it any higher. Considering how the Skills work...roll a twenty, and you get 45 max. There are Force Powers with that high of a DC.

    Frankly to me, It seems easier to just increase all the DCs by 5 for Force Users, or just Skill Focus +3 for everyone. Or just don't allow Force-Sensitives

    Frankly, D&D up 4th/5th Mage-NonMage balance issues are way worse than anything UtF related.
    Blog Read and Comment! I use green for joking and Blue for sarcasm.
    Published two Kindle Books on Amazon, both are 99 cents. Ask Me about them!
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Wookiee. 2 E's. [I am obsessed with this]
    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    Somewhere, Conan the Barbarian refuses to weep, and instead curses Crom for permitting WotC to botch his class so badly.
    Quote Originally Posted by eaglewingz View Post
    "Hey, have you any idea what these strange symbols are?"
    My First Let's Play -- Temporary Haitus (I plan to get back to it eventually)

  17. - Top - End - #47
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    I have less problem with CT snipers because those are a build... they take some degree of system mastery to acquire, and a few levels of work.

    A "force wizard" doesn't really require much to start off very powerful. "Well, I want to be a Jedi, so I'm going to be a Jedi. I want to use the force a lot, so I should take Skill Focus in Use the Force. And let's take some feats that give me a lot of powers."

    Is it a build? Yes. But it doesn't require much more than "I want to be effective, so let's make some obvious choices" to be scarily effective at almost everything.
    I dont have too much of a problem with Force Wizards, due to the simple fact that most if not all Force powers have ranges of 6 and 12 squares.

    Im at short range with a BOG standard Stormtrooper with a Blaster rifle at 60 squares. Point blank is within 30 squares.

    Stormtroopers in squads of 4 make one shot at +10 thanks to the Coordinated attack feat. Increase that attack bonus by +2 for every additional Stormtrooper. Having an Imperial Officer nearby with Co-ordinate raises this bonus by an extra +1 per Stormtrooper present, to +13 to hit. Thats a squad of 4 core Stormtroopers and 1 core Imperial officer. Each Stormtrooper you add increases the Hit bonus by another +3.

    It makes it quite easy just using BOG standard Stormtrooper tactics to deal with high UTF + Deflect for Jedi who think they're invincible.

    If you want to take it up a notch, my personal preference is 8HD Nonheroic Stormtroopers with Co-ordinated attack and Co-ordinated Barrage feat, with a Noble Imperial Officer nearby with Co-ordinate talent.

    They get +7 to hit base, +3 per additional Stormtrooper aiding the first, and deal an extra dice damage for each increment of 3 it rolls over the reflex defence of the target. A squad of 6 such Stormtroopers +1 Officer = one attack at +22 to hit, dealing an extra dice damage for every 3 rolled over Reflex defence.

    Me: 'Oh you have +15 to UTF and the Deflect talent? Thats nice... (smiles evilly, makes attack roll at +22)'

    Just keep adding stormtroopers (+3 per Trooper) till you're happy with the attack bonus compared to the PCs UTF bonus.
    Last edited by Malifice; 2018-07-13 at 12:11 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #48
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post
    People here are forgetting the most important bit: If you are using the Force quite a lot then you should probably get a visit from agents of the Empire. Or depending on the era, you ought to be fighting Sith and Dark Jedi rather a lot. Or enemy reborn, etc. It really ought to be an issue in the era you play in.

    Between UtF abuse? and CT Sniper, I think the CT sniper wins on brokenness. Once you get it good, you can completely destroy opponents in a few shots, plus the penalty for falling down the track always applies and builds on the next one. I also think it can be done by level 7? level 9? to one shot folks like Vader.

    Wasting Talents, which you only get every 3 levels, to use other skills with UtF mod requires losing picking up Jedi stuff.

    If UtF is a really big issue, you can make modifiers, but the Skill Focus applies as +5 to any skill it gets done with, and everyone is always getting the +5 for Skill Training, so you do have to remove the +5 for every skill to justify doing it with the UtF employment or expect complaining.

    I mean though, one of the biggest thrills of Star Wars is playing a Jedi or some of the other character types.

    Maybe apply creatures that make the Force less usable.

    The problem you are not getting:

    UtF modifier at level 20 is going to be whopping +25 (Skill Training +5, Skill Focus +5, Half-Level +10, Maxed Out Charisma 20 +5), You have to burn a force point and make a Force Dice Roll to get it any higher. Considering how the Skills work...roll a twenty, and you get 45 max. There are Force Powers with that high of a DC.

    Frankly to me, It seems easier to just increase all the DCs by 5 for Force Users, or just Skill Focus +3 for everyone. Or just don't allow Force-Sensitives

    Frankly, D&D up 4th/5th Mage-NonMage balance issues are way worse than anything UtF related.

    My simple rule for CT snipers is 'No effect can move a target more than 2 steps down the CT between that targets turns, other than being reduced to 0 HP.'

    There is room for stunning, feat/ talent combos etc that move a target an additional step down the CT, and its still a valid option to pursue in any build. But it also ensures both the PCs (and the BBEG) dont get smoked or crippled in one turn of CT damage (which isnt very fun in either instance).

    I also play with a 'legendary creature' rule ripped from 5E and also from Inquisitor Draco's stats in the Dawn of Defiance adventure. Legendary foes have triple normal HP, get +20 to Initiative checks, and have a full turn on that Initiative count, and then another full turn on that Count -10, and then again on that count -20 (3 turns per round). They also get a legendary resistance ability (when pushed down the CT, or affected by a talent or force power that targets a defence score, they may choose not to be pushed down the CT or affected by that talent or force power, up to 3 times per encounter).

    I can run mook heavy fights, or I can run a single solo encounter that is a challenge for a party of 4-5 PCs.

  19. - Top - End - #49
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Right behind you!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    It makes it quite easy just using BOG standard Stormtrooper tactics to deal with high UTF + Deflect for Jedi who think they're invincible.

    If you want to take it up a notch, my personal preference is 8HD Nonheroic Stormtroopers with Co-ordinated attack and Co-ordinated Barrage feat, with a Noble Imperial Officer nearby with Co-ordinate talent.

    They get +7 to hit base, +3 per additional Stormtrooper aiding the first, and deal an extra dice damage for each increment of 3 it rolls over the reflex defence of the target. A squad of 6 such Stormtroopers +1 Officer = one attack at +22 to hit, dealing an extra dice damage for every 3 rolled over Reflex defence.

    Me: 'Oh you have +15 to UTF and the Deflect talent? Thats nice... (smiles evilly, makes attack roll at +22)'

    Just keep adding stormtroopers (+3 per Trooper) till you're happy with the attack bonus compared to the PCs UTF bonus.
    Because GM vs PC escalation is always a good decision! Kill their character - that'll show 'em!

    Yeah - this is a bad idea. I have no problem with the above combo - but not when it's used specifically to punish a character for creating a character who is 'think they're invincible'.

    Either houserule the game to either nerf/delay Skill Focus (or the option to put Skill based attack rolls in line with full BAB) or sit down with them and talk it out like grown-ups.

    Or just go ahead and use your massive GM powers to punish them for daring to challenge you with their puny Jedi powers.

  20. - Top - End - #50
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by CharonsHelper View Post
    Because GM vs PC escalation is always a good decision! Kill their character - that'll show 'em!

    Yeah - this is a bad idea. I have no problem with the above combo - but not when it's used specifically to punish a character for creating a character who is 'think they're invincible'.

    Either houserule the game to either nerf/delay Skill Focus (or the option to put Skill based attack rolls in line with full BAB) or sit down with them and talk it out like grown-ups.

    Or just go ahead and use your massive GM powers to punish them for daring to challenge you with their puny Jedi powers.
    Lol. I was not saying aid another till you get a bonus that cant be deflected.

    You aid another till you make it a challenge to be deflected.
    Last edited by Malifice; 2018-07-13 at 08:36 AM.

  21. - Top - End - #51
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Right behind you!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Lol. I was not saying aid another till you get a bonus that cant be deflected.

    You aid another till you make it a challenge to be deflected.
    Aren't you still basically negating their build choices?

    Out of curiosity - why not just have foes use grenades against the Jedi? That's sure as heck what I'd do if I was a mook in the Star Wars galaxy.

  22. - Top - End - #52
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by CharonsHelper View Post
    Aren't you still basically negating their build choices?
    Of course not. Im designing encounters to challenge them based on those build choices.

    Im the DM. If I wanted to design underwhelming or overwhelming encounters I could. The goal is to design encounters that challenge them.

    If I have a 6th level Jedi the the party with a (say) +17 UTF and a bunch of (short range) force powers, and a murder machine with a lightsaber you can bet your bottom dollar I'll be designing encounters that both let him show that **** off, and encounters that challenge his obvious weakness (range).

    The trick is balancing encounters when you have one clearly optimal PC and the other members of the party are not as strong. If you get your balance wrong, and the optimal PC goes down, it can end in a TPK. Thats a bad thing for the game. If the encounter is too easy, it becomes boring for the players, which is also a bad thing for the game.

    In the above example (said Jedi with a party of less optimized scouts and nobles) it's reasonably easy to balance for.

    Out of curiosity - why not just have foes use grenades against the Jedi? That's sure as heck what I'd do if I was a mook in the Star Wars galaxy.
    Three reasons:

    Firstly; grenades require you to get close to the Jedi. The ranges on grenades suck. Seeing as most force powers are 6 or 12 squares, and they guy using them is holding a lightsaber, do you really want to be close to him to throw a grenade?

    Secondly; grenades for mine dont fit Star Wars. Ive never seen a Stormtrooper use one. Im sure it's happened somewhere at some point, but 'blast em' seems to be more appropriate.

    Thirdly; Aid another + Stormtroopers having Coordiate feat (and Imperial officers having the Co-ordiate talent) isnt a co-incidence. Its been that way since WEG's d6 Star Wars; Stormtroopers are intentioanlly designed in SWSE to be clumped together in groups and make 'one attack roll' per group.

    A party of 4 x PCs including said Jedi force wizard is pretty easily challenged (not ovwhelmed, but challenged) by placing a dozen stormtroopers on the map (plus an Imperial Officer, plus maybe a 'heavy' of some kind) at a range of 30 squares and blasting away.

    4 x 6th level PCs are looking at defence scores of around 20. Storm troopers get +4 to hit (+7 to hit if two of them are shooting, with one aiding the other and the Noble officer has used Co-ordinate). That sounds to me to be about the right bonus to shoot at them. Ill get 6 Stormtroopers to shoot at the 3 non Jedi PCs (2 per PC) at +7 per shot.

    The remaining 5 Stormtroopers shoot at the Jedi (at +16). Thats around the same bonus as his deflect score.

    He feels good that he's taking the brunt of the fire (protecting the party). Everyone is challenged equally. Its thematically appropriate for the genre and makes sense (focus fire on the Jedi!).

    It also lets me resolve 12 turns with 4 attack rolls.

    (The amount of DMs that dont understand that Stormtroopers were built this way amazes me. I've seen DMs rolling dozens of attack rolls fishing for natural 20's for Stormtroopers instead of just limping them together into a single group as designed).

    On the players turns they need to figure out who to target - the Officer who is buffing the Stormtroopers, the Stormtroopers (mook clearance - they're only dangerous in numbers) or the 'Heavy' (Possibly a grav sled with a repeating blaster of some kind?).

    The Jedi has a problem - he needs to get within 6 squares for many of his abilities. Surge and running gets him there in one round. Again easily worked around by the DM by placing the Stormtroopers in spread out groups to make the encounter more dynamic and challenging.

    Youre not there to screw over a player; just to challenge the player. And YES that means tailoring your encounters to the player characters playing in your game.

    Sometimes that also means tailoring an encounter that is designed for the PCs to cakewalk (placing a bunch of mooks close together near a PC with Force slam for example for him to mow down, or a dangerous creature in range of a Force Grip) so they can show those abilities off and feel good in other ways.

    Its all part of the art of DMing. Im not advocating some kind of arms race here (because the DM always wins them). Im advocating tailoring encounters to fit and challenge and entertain the PCs at your table. They're different things.
    Last edited by Malifice; 2018-07-13 at 12:38 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #53
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    PairO'Dice Lost's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Malsheem, Nessus
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Secondly; grenades for mine dont fit Star Wars. Ive never seen a Stormtrooper use one. Im sure it's happened somewhere at some point, but 'blast em' seems to be more appropriate.
    Every stormtrooper is equipped with a special thermal detonator that they could use (the "frag grenade" listed in the Stormtrooper/Heavy Stormtrooper/Scout Trooper stat blocks in the core book), so stormtroopers having grenades fits just fine, but you're right, they're never used in the movies and I don't recall them being used by non-special-forces stormtroopers in the EU.
    Better to DM in Baator than play in Celestia
    You can just call me Dice; that's how I roll.


    Spoiler: Sig of Holding
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by abadguy View Post
    Darn you PoDL for making me care about a bunch of NPC Commoners!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chambers View Post
    I'm pretty sure turning Waterdeep into a sheet of glass wasn't the best win condition for that fight. We lived though!
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'DiceLost View Post
    <Snip>
    Where are my Like, Love, and Want to Have Your Manchildren (Totally Homo) buttons for this post?
    Won a cookie for this, won everything for this

  24. - Top - End - #54
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    Every stormtrooper is equipped with a special thermal detonator that they could use (the "frag grenade" listed in the Stormtrooper/Heavy Stormtrooper/Scout Trooper stat blocks in the core book), so stormtroopers having grenades fits just fine, but you're right, they're never used in the movies and I don't recall them being used by non-special-forces stormtroopers in the EU.
    I accept they have them. They've always been described as having them in the utility belts as far back as I can remember canonically.

    They just... dont use them that often from what I can see. It wouldnt feel very Star Wars to me if they did. Especially if it was a frequent thing. Maybe every now and then when blasting isnt an option.

    Besides. Stormtroopers are deadly accurate with their Blaster rifles, unlike say, Sand People.

    ;)

    I only ever see DMs running for grenades 'because Jedi or high Ref defence and no Uncanny Dodge'. It then becomes kind of common to see Stormtroopers rushing in to peg grenades at the PCs.

    For mine, the better (and more thematic, and easier to resolve) solution is to simply use Stormstoopers as they are designed to be used, and lump them together in groups Aiding each other till I have the attack bonus I want.

    10 stormtroopers shoot once at +22. With an officer, that's once at +31. One roll and I'm done. I just group my Stormtroopers so there are enough to generate a high enough bonus to give me a roughly 50/50 chance of hitting a given PC.

    When numbers get thinned out (and note the accuracy and threat they pose drops as their numbers drop, as does it if you smoke the Officer in charge) I resort to them breaking coherency and just blasting away wildly (individual shots at +4; likely fishing for crits vs mid+ level Heroes).

    Either way, I'm resolving several squads of stormtroopers taking actions with a handful of dice rolls, and inside of a 30 seconds.

    It's a neat feature that wasnt used well enough elsewhere. In fact the Mook rules of Saga kind of suck (they're reasonably complex to design, and their defences dont scale even though attack bonuses and skills kind of do).

    In fact I used to love SAGA but its intresting how looking back on it, there are a number of things that are clunky and weird. The all over the place scaling is one (different BABs, skill bonuses as attack rolls, how the system falls down at low and high levels with impossibly hard ot hit defences, or impossible to miss skills) plus the system is just weirldy overcomplex in a number of other areas, and a lot of the talent trees dont focus you into a particular party role or simply contain a lot of wildly varying abilities of even more varied potency.

    Ive been thinking about taking some of the lessons learnt in 5E and retro-porting those ideas back into Saga edition.

    Something as simple as replacing BAB, Skill bonus to trained skills, damage bonus with weapons and heroic bonus to defences with a fixed proficiency bonus (say from a +2 to +12 progression as per a 'good save' in 3E, and an additional +3 for skill/weapon focus.

    Defences become 8+Proficiency+Ability+Class bonus+feats (ranging from 10 for a 1st level Non Heroic with average Ability scores, to around 30 for a pimped out 20th level Heroic). Attack and skill bonuses range from +0 (average ability score, non proficient) to around +20 (Ability score 20, Focus, 20th level).

    Its not as low as 5E's 2-7 bonus which is a good and bad thing. It widens the sweet spot of play in the system, and makes Mooks and so forth a threat across all levels of play.

    Id also include more healing surges (after CT snipers and scaling issues with skills/ BAB, healing is the third big issue with the system in actual play with PCs rather jarringly having to crawl away and hide for several days to heal after a few encounters if they lack a Vital Transfer Jedi)

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    PairO'Dice Lost's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Malsheem, Nessus
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    For mine, the better (and more thematic, and easier to resolve) solution is to simply use Stormstoopers as they are designed to be used, and lump them together in groups Aiding each other till I have the attack bonus I want.
    Oh, I'm not saying they should use grenades more; I use the coordinated fire approach as well, since that makes the most sense anyway for the standard stormtrooper squad (eight troopers and a sergeant). Just pointing out that if you did have a stormtrooper use a grenade on occasion for variety it wouldn't be out of place.

    In fact I used to love SAGA but its intresting how looking back on it, there are a number of things that are clunky and weird. The all over the place scaling is one (different BABs, skill bonuses as attack rolls, how the system falls down at low and high levels with impossibly hard ot hit defences, or impossible to miss skills) plus the system is just weirldy overcomplex in a number of other areas, and a lot of the talent trees dont focus you into a particular party role or simply contain a lot of wildly varying abilities of even more varied potency.
    Some of these idiosyncrasies come from the fact that the designers were trying to emulate the movies in certain respects; the Force being stronger at low levels and defenses being stronger at high levels resembles the fact that padawans beat stormtroopers hands-down while Mandalorians and bounty hunters take down Jedi Masters, for instance, and most of the talents are there less to focus you into a party role (because Star Wars roles are more thematic than strategic) and more to let you mimic certain characters from the setting.

    Most of the others come from the fact that it was basically D&D 3.75 with a Star Wars spin, used somewhat as a test bed for 4e in the same way that late-3e content was, so most of its changes were a reaction to certain perceived issues with 3e. Hit point damage has no effect until you drop? Add a condition track. Numbers are all over the place at high levels? Standardize BAB/skill/attribute ranges (but keep different progressions so they're not too same-y before then). And so on.

    Ive been thinking about taking some of the lessons learnt in 5E and retro-porting those ideas back into Saga edition.

    Something as simple as replacing BAB, Skill bonus to trained skills, damage bonus with weapons and heroic bonus to defences with a fixed proficiency bonus (say from a +2 to +12 progression as per a 'good save' in 3E, and an additional +3 for skill/weapon focus.

    Defences become 8+Proficiency+Ability+Class bonus+feats (ranging from 10 for a 1st level Non Heroic with average Ability scores, to around 30 for a pimped out 20th level Heroic). Attack and skill bonuses range from +0 (average ability score, non proficient) to around +20 (Ability score 20, Focus, 20th level).

    Its not as low as 5E's 2-7 bonus which is a good and bad thing. It widens the sweet spot of play in the system, and makes Mooks and so forth a threat across all levels of play.
    I don't think this is a good idea, for several reasons. First, SWSE already uses +1/2 level, +3/4 level, and +level for a lot of things, so sticking to those progressions instead of something nonstandard requires much fewer alterations across the board. Second, skill bonuses need to be relatively large at lower level to distinguish different characters better; in my experience running 5e, a +2 just doesn't cut it for making a party feel distinct.

    Third, the whole point of a level-based system is that low-level mooks aren't a constant threat at high levels, and that the game changes in playstyle and feel at different levels rather than having the same "sweet spot" gameplay at all times. You currently need large numbers of stormtroopers working together in a tactically-capable fashion to threaten post-RotJ Luke, Darth Vader, Boba Fett, HK-47, and similar characters, and that's really how it should be; a scenario where a single squad of stormtroopers or Rebel soldiers gives one of them pause doesn't really fit the setting.

    Which isn't to say that progressions couldn't be standardized more; skill numbers do need to be reined in at low levels and attack bonuses could stand to be raised a bit, and defenses scaling more would be good. But those need quality-of-life fixes to help with build complexity and top-end scaling, not overhauls of the base assumptions of the system, which work just fine for the most part.

    Id also include more healing surges (after CT snipers and scaling issues with skills/ BAB, healing is the third big issue with the system in actual play with PCs rather jarringly having to crawl away and hide for several days to heal after a few encounters if they lack a Vital Transfer Jedi)
    This I do agree with; Treat Injury being pretty darn bad at, y'know, treating injuries compared to Force powers comes from the 3e Heal skill being pathetic next to healing spells, but the setting assumptions about the prevalence and accessibility of Force-users vs. divine casters and the genre assumptions of how quickly character should bounce back from severe injuries are completely different. Expanding and improving Treat Injury, adding "shrug off damage" and "improve self-healing" uses to Endurance, making medical gear more effective, and so forth is definitely a good idea.
    Better to DM in Baator than play in Celestia
    You can just call me Dice; that's how I roll.


    Spoiler: Sig of Holding
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by abadguy View Post
    Darn you PoDL for making me care about a bunch of NPC Commoners!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chambers View Post
    I'm pretty sure turning Waterdeep into a sheet of glass wasn't the best win condition for that fight. We lived though!
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'DiceLost View Post
    <Snip>
    Where are my Like, Love, and Want to Have Your Manchildren (Totally Homo) buttons for this post?
    Won a cookie for this, won everything for this

  26. - Top - End - #56
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Euphonistan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Also grenades become another way for the jedi jsut to laugh as there are powers designed specifically to screw over things like grenades. It should come up but if that is your only method to deal with jedi then that would become a problem.

    Personally I have no problem with clumping storm troopers as it is a standard tactic for them via their normal stat black and that is using that block as designed and is faster than fishing. It also makes massed fire dangerous which is kind of the point. The jedi will still be tough to take down especially if fighting small groups which makes sense as most jedi do well against small groups but large groups can take down even powerful jedi (such as during Revenge of the Sith after the order is given).

    It is also less of a stretch in belief than the other common ways of taking out jedi such as constant use of fame thrower type weapons or sonic weapons. If I saw most of my enemies as a jedi using sonic weapons and they were not jedi specific assassins essentially then I think the GM has it in for me specifically. Storm troopers using a core feat on the other hand feels much less like the DM is specifically out to get me.
    A vestige for me "Pyro火gnus Friend of Meepo" by Zaydos.

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...5&postcount=26

  27. - Top - End - #57
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    Also grenades become another way for the jedi jsut to laugh as there are powers designed specifically to screw over things like grenades. It should come up but if that is your only method to deal with jedi then that would become a problem.

    Personally I have no problem with clumping storm troopers as it is a standard tactic for them via their normal stat black and that is using that block as designed and is faster than fishing. It also makes massed fire dangerous which is kind of the point. The jedi will still be tough to take down especially if fighting small groups which makes sense as most jedi do well against small groups but large groups can take down even powerful jedi (such as during Revenge of the Sith after the order is given).

    It is also less of a stretch in belief than the other common ways of taking out jedi such as constant use of fame thrower type weapons or sonic weapons. If I saw most of my enemies as a jedi using sonic weapons and they were not jedi specific assassins essentially then I think the GM has it in for me specifically. Storm troopers using a core feat on the other hand feels much less like the DM is specifically out to get me.
    For sure man. Its super eye rolling when all of sudden every Trandoshan and his dog are whipping out sonic weapons, flamethrowers, grenades and other cheese to stop or specifically nullify the Jedi.

    Co-ordinated attack feat exists for a reason. As does the Co-ordinate talent, and the Co-ordinated barrage feat (this beauty increases the damage when you use the above). The first two are stock standard on Stormtroopers and Imperial officers for a reason, and the third one is screaming out to be plonked on 'advanced' stormtroopers (8 HD non-heroics).

    They could have gone further with mooks for mine. Made the aid another action automatically successful (like it is in 5E) with no roll (effectively removing the need for the Co-ordinate feat) and implementing a Mook rule (on a successful hit that deals damage over the DT, the Mook dies; otherwise it's unaffected - like Savage Worlds 'up, down or off the table').

    Most non heroics die in a single hit anyway (d4 HD). I find tracking HP for a dozen stormtroopers constantly to be annoying, more so seeing as they all look the same on the board.

    And why on earth they decided not to scale Mook (and Beast) defenses boggles my mind.

  28. - Top - End - #58
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Nifft's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Ive been thinking about taking some of the lessons learnt in 5E and retro-porting those ideas back into Saga edition.
    That seems like an excellent idea.

    Post here when you start the project, or when you want a review.

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Right behind you!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    And why on earth they decided not to scale Mook (and Beast) defenses boggles my mind.
    I always figured it was because as you leveled, they intended you to be able to use multiple attacks against them successfully.

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: How well does the Use the Force skill work in Star Wars Saga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    That seems like an excellent idea.

    Post here when you start the project, or when you want a review.
    I'll post something in this thread later on tonight.

    I'm kind of torn between using the system 'as is' with the following changes:

    1) Adding in a 'Combat training I and II' line of feats. Combat training I increase BAB by +2 [max CL]. Combat Training II increases your BAB to [= to CL],
    2) Using a 'Skill attack modifier [SAM]' for skills that attack defences, where your SAM = [CL + Ability score + 2 for Skill Focus - 5 for Untrained). When using a skill against a defence score such as UtF, your skill bonus determines how well you do, and your SAM determines if you land the attack.

    Its clunky, but it smooths over many of the issues, with the least amount of work required.

    The second option is to introduce a new level scaling bonus like 5E's proficiency bonus to replace [heroic bonus to defence, damage, skills and BAB). This gets rid of feat taxes and clunky 'one roll with two modifiers skill vs defences' but requires the most work.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •