Ready Action and "combat"

[Kuu Lightwing]

I know, this is somewhat a controversial topic, but still want to ask how you would rule this.

Question #1 Would you allow to Ready an action outside of combat? This might lead to some cheese with characters going "I always ready an attack action when I see someone", but on the other hand, that's a common trope of action movies and stuff, where people enter a hostile territory with weapons ready, and checking every corner and such.

Question #2, let's assume that Ready isn't allowed outside combat, would you allow to enter initiative earlier, without seeing an enemy yet? The most obvious situation where this could be needed is when a party prepares and ambush, say Himiko wants to cast a fireball as soon as Gonta opens the door that (as they think) has enemies behind it?

[mephnick]

This is all handled by the surprise rules. In hostile territory your characters are assumed to be "ready with weapons out" and initiative just determines how fast they act.

The second example, the monsters on the other side of the door are surprised and get no actions assuming you've somehow gotten to the door without them noticing. So you'll still get the first attacks, but nothing happens outside of initiative.

[Tanarii]

No way. Ready is a combat action. That's what initiative and starting positions are for.

If the party prepares an ambush of any kind, roll for surprise as normal. Initiative begins when combat begins, although there's some leeway for common sense in that regard already built in. If they want to do some shooting through door after opening shenanigans, they start outside. If the enemy is waiting with missile fire to get them as they come trough a door or opening, they start outside. Otherwise they can start on the other side of the door in battle order. That's where the leeway is. But PCs Should act in initiative order as usual, once starting positions have been established.

I've had exactly this scenario, with a wizard wanting to peek around a corner when enemies have heard them coming (and killing their allies), and lob a fireball into the cavern around it. The way it worked: everyone rolls initiative, I roll for enemies. All the players who go before the wizard just do nothing on their turns, the wizard take his turn and peeks around the corner ... and gets shot at by 10 Gnoll archers who had won initiative and had used it to Ready actions in response to hearing the party talk around the corner. Because of course the players had discussed this tactic among themselves at the table with the Gnolls right there, despite repeated example of my table talk = in-game talk coming up earlier in that same session. Even with cover, the Wizard still manage to get hit and knocked down to single digit hit points. Of course, the fireball killed all the gnolls. And set fire to their bedding. In a closed environment ...

Another common scenario is they players wanting to go through a door in specific order, when the enemy on the other side may or may not have heard them coming. This is more easily handled. Roll initiate, start combat with the PCs on the inside of the room, in battle order they intended. Nothing says initiative must be the moment a door opens or they look around a corner. Only if the players (or enemies) are trying to do things before the players go into the space.

[PhoenixPhyre]

This is all handled by the surprise rules. In hostile territory your characters are assumed to be "ready with weapons out" and initiative just determines how fast they act.

The second example, the monsters on the other side of the door are surprised and get no actions assuming you've somehow gotten to the door without them noticing. So you'll still get the first attacks, but nothing happens outside of initiative.

The bold part is a key that many DMs (especially new ones) miss. You can never go wrong by switching into initiative order for any timing-sensitive thing. Yes, even out of formal combat. If reaction speed is important, go to initiative.

And if anyone's trying to hurt/take hostile action against anyone else, initiative is essential, and happens before the triggering action is resolved. To do otherwise is to court madness and hurt feelings as people get screwed. And to court munchkinry. There are no "free" attacks (using the term more generally than things that require an attack roll).

[Unoriginal]

No to both, but if a players told me "I get ready to stab the NPC if he tries to touch the Cleric", and the NPC doesn't expect it, the NPC could count as surprised. Same way that a player could say "my archer fires the moment he sees an Ice Giant" or "I blow my horn so we get help as soon as we find where the dragon is".

You can have an action "readied" outside of combat, but not a Readied action.

[SiCK_Boy]

Answer to question # 1:

I don't think you should allow it (having ready action outside combat). The purpose of initiative if to determine which character has the fastest reflex and can react the quickest.

A player keeping is crossbow loaded and his finger on the trigger would still need to win initiative in order to shoot first.

Otherwise, you are automatically giving free actions to your players, which will totally wreck game balance.

If players want to gain "free" attacks, they should work at gaining surprise. That means traveling in "sneak" mode, and beating opponents' perception check. Otherwise, no free attack.

Answer to question # 2:

Again, you should just use regular surprise rules and initiative. Even if the players are "ready", maybe the monsters are ready too (and have better reflexes). And the default "ready action" rule allows the player to change his mind (as the trigger happens, the player can decide to not take the readied action), so I would not want to force the player to stick to an action declared outside initiative, especially when the situation changes.

I had a similar situation where my players were more concerned about pre-arranging initiative amongst themselves in a context of surprise (they were about to rush into a cavern where they knew there were monsters; the monsters had not noticed the players; the players were determined to attack the monsters). The players were worried that if the warriors went last in the initiative, the casters would have to refrain from moving in because they would then block the path for the fighters (and you can only ready an action, not a move + action). At the time, I allowed them to each roll a d20 and to allocate these rolls to the players in the group as they saw fit for initiative purpose. Once they entered, the monsters still got their initiative roll and were placed accordingly, but the players had at least been able to arrange their own relative initiative as they wanted.

After that, I wasn't sure if I wanted to allow this system to work on a regular basis. Since then, I've come up with the following rule: when the players roll for initiative, I allow them to "delay" and move further down in the initiative order. For example, if the Fighter gets 15 and the Wizard gets 12, but the fighter really wants to play after the wizard, the fighter can elect to change his 15 for a 12 (in case of ties, players decide amongst themselves who goes first). They do this before seeing any of the monster's initiative results, and a player can only reduce his score with this method. This gives the players a certain amount of control on their relative initiative order, but at the risk of having the monsters act first, and they can only do it at the very beginning of the fight. After that, they can only use the "ready action", as per the usual rule. Once the players are set (I normally align their initiative cards along my DM screen as we do that), I then add the monsters to the initiative order, placing them at the proper spot on the screen.

[Xetheral]

I know, this is somewhat a controversial topic, but still want to ask how you would rule this.

Question #1 Would you allow to Ready an action outside of combat? This might lead to some cheese with characters going "I always ready an attack action when I see someone", but on the other hand, that's a common trope of action movies and stuff, where people enter a hostile territory with weapons ready, and checking every corner and such.

Question #2, let's assume that Ready isn't allowed outside combat, would you allow to enter initiative earlier, without seeing an enemy yet? The most obvious situation where this could be needed is when a party prepares and ambush, say Himiko wants to cast a fireball as soon as Gonta opens the door that (as they think) has enemies behind it?

I use a houserule that permits a single character to automatically go first in the initiative order so long as no other character wants to take a hostile action yet. Under the circumstances, I would count opening a door as a hostile action in #2, so the opening character automatically goes first, and then the initiative results of the other combatants would determine subsequent order, with some combatants being surprised, if appropriate.

[Tanarii]

I use a houserule that permits a single character to automatically go first in the initiative order so long as no other character wants to take a hostile action yet. Under the circumstances, I would count opening a door as a hostile action in #2, so the opening character automatically goes first, and then the initiative results of the other combatants would determine subsequent order, with some combatants being surprised, if appropriate.

That's an interesting clarification on your house rule, that opening the door would count as thefirsthostile action.

Conversely, and building on our previous discussion on the matter, I generally wouldn't even include opening the door in the initiative order. It'd be what triggered initiative. So it'd go down identically in our games if someone wanted to attack through the doorway.

Conversely, as I said above, I would start with PCs inside the room if they wanted to charge through in battle order, and the enemies weren't waiting to fire as they came through.

So it sounds like what you call a "house rule", I call "RAW, with the DM starting the battle at the appropriate moment for the situation".

[Arial Black]

Question #1 Would you allow to Ready an action outside of combat? This might lead to some cheese with characters going "I always ready an attack action when I see someone", but on the other hand, that's a common trope of action movies and stuff, where people enter a hostile territory with weapons ready, and checking every corner and such.

Never! Never, never never!

Most actions cover things that can be done outside combat. For example, 'casting a spell' outside of combat neither uses nor requires Actions In Combat; you just....cast it!

But the Ready Action is only about changing the place in the initiative order of when the thing you want to do happens. It has no other function. Out of combat, you don't need the Ready Action, and Actions In Combat only exist...you guessed it!...in combat. And, as we all know (because the rules say so!) combat takes place in Combat Rounds in initiative order.

Anyone trying to Ready outside combat is trying to get around the initiative/surprise rules. Never allow it. Never do it yourself. Just use the rules for initiative and surprise.

Question #2, let's assume that Ready isn't allowed outside combat, would you allow to enter initiative earlier, without seeing an enemy yet? The most obvious situation where this could be needed is when a party prepares and ambush, say Himiko wants to cast a fireball as soon as Gonta opens the door that (as they think) has enemies behind it?

No. The 'condition' of 'being surprised' only applies to the first round of combat. Starting initiative earlier than the foe can respond takes away their ability to surprise you and yours to surprise them. It takes away their ability to be 'not surprised', having a higher initiative than you, and attacking you first!

It's essentially cheating. Never allow it.

If you, as DM, decide to use initiative order outside of combat for some reason (because the order people act is somehow crucial to this non-combat activity), then as soon as actual combat is about to begin, then end your non-combat initiative, re-roll initiative and establish surprise. This allows the game to be run fairly, allows those creatures who are immune to surprise or who have abilities which only function in the first round of combat to work as intended.

[Xetheral]

That's an interesting clarification on your house rule, that opening the door would count as thefirsthostile action.

Conversely, and building on our previous discussion on the matter, I generally wouldn't even include opening the door in the initiative order. It'd be what triggered initiative. So it'd go down identically in our games if someone wanted to attack through the doorway.

I classify it that way because it's an action intended to start hostilities, in reaction to which other combatants might elect to (or in the example given, already plan to) take hostile actions of their own. I put opening the door in the initiative order to avoid the problem where the door-opener rolls higher initiative than the fireballer but lower initiative than the enemies. To illustrate:

(Door is opened outside initiative.)
Enemies take turn and are no longer surprised.
Door-opener skips turns.
Ally casts Fireball.
Enemies attack.
Door-opener takes turn.

vs

Door-opener automatically goes first and opens door.
Enemies take turn and are no longer surprised
Ally casts Fireball
Door-opener takes turn.
Enemies attack.

The latter is a much more advantageous worst-case scenario than the former. (If the enemies roll lowest on initiative, then yes, our approaches are functionally identical.)

Conversely, as I said above, I would start with PCs inside the room if they wanted to charge through in battle order, and the enemies weren't waiting to fire as they came through.

In that circumstance I'd roll initiative the moment someone wants to take a hostile action, which will likely be immediately after the first hostile-looking character clears the doorway. My houserule wouldn't trigger since presumably multiple people want to take actions at that point.

So it sounds like what you call a "house rule", I call "RAW, with the DM starting the battle at the appropriate moment for the situation".

I often wonder if our games might look quite similar in practice even though we often use different language to describe what we're doing, and differ on certain points of minutae. :)

Edit: Well, other than the parts where you don't play with feats or multiclassing and design encounters very differently.... :p

[SiCK_Boy]

But the Ready Action is only about changing the place in the initiative order of when the thing you want to do happens. It has no other function. Out of combat, you don't need the Ready Action, and Actions In Combat only exist...you guessed it!...in combat. And, as we all know (because the rules say so!) combat takes place in Combat Rounds in initiative order.

It also exist to allow "conditional" reactions to the evolving situation of the combat.

[Mellack]

#1. No


#2. No

Determining what happens when is the entire purpose of initiative. Use it for what it is meant to do.

[JoeJ]

If you, as DM, decide to use initiative order outside of combat for some reason (because the order people act is somehow crucial to this non-combat activity), then as soon as actual combat is about to begin, then end your non-combat initiative, re-roll initiative and establish surprise. This allows the game to be run fairly, allows those creatures who are immune to surprise or who have abilities which only function in the first round of combat to work as intended.

This one part I don't agree with. If the non-combat situation that caused initiative to be rolled is still ongoing - for example, a complex trap that hasn't been neutralized yet - then having enemies show up should be no different than having new creatures show up in an ongoing fight. You just roll initiative for the newcomers and add them in to the existing initiative order.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

I'll play devil's advocate for what looks like everyone who's responded so far.

In response to Q1: Yes! Absolutely! Although I force players to make it specific just like the Ready Action in combat. The thing is, in combat you run the risk of missing a turn (the one where you took the Ready action) with a readied action because the conditions may never be met. It's the same in a role-playing situation. It allows players to think 1 or 2 steps ahead of their NPCs (and vise-versa) and potentially gain an upper hand either in combat or in a role-playing situation.

So if the party were talking to a few NPCs that they thought might be tied to the band of marauders troubling the village, a couple of them might want to ready actions in case things go south or a specific opportunity arises. For instance, Bob the Druid says he wants to ready an action that if the leader steps out of the room for any reason, he wants to Wildshape into a bear and attack the henchmen. So if the trigger comes, he has the option to take that readied action as he (as a character) anticipated the leader might leave and that it would provide the best opportunity for an all out attack. Then you roll initiative for everyone and account for surprise because bears.

Alternatively, I was recently playing a wizard and was invisible next to a demon who was claiming that someone's child now belonged to him. The party was just talking to the demon, but I readied an action to grab the baby who was next to the demon and slink away if there was a time when the demon looked away or seemed less focused on the child. It ended up working out great for the most part and we got out without any real combat happening.

I don't see any gamebreaking features in either scenario since NPCs can do this as well. It rewards your players for thinking ahead, even in order to avoid combat or a big fight.

[sophontteks]

#1 as described is how the characters are acting without readying. If they weren't they would spend the first round (which is only 7 seconds long) 'surprised'. Surprised meaning they were not expecting combat.

#2 Also handled by the surprise round. A successful ambush would give the party a free round.

[Telok]

Something that happened in a game:

Fighter: 'I ready an action to catch the wizard when he fails his climb check.'
DM: 'You can't ready actions outside of combat. Roll, wizard.'
Wizard: <roll> <fail>
DM: 'You fall and take <roll> 45 points of damage.'
Wizard: 'Zero and dying.'
Cleric (to fighter): 'Next time we'll just start a fight with the bard so you can catch him.'

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Something that happened in a game:

Fighter: 'I ready an action to catch the wizard when he fails his climb check.'
DM: 'You can't ready actions outside of combat. Roll, wizard.'
Wizard: <roll> <fail>
DM: 'You fall and take <roll> 45 points of damage.'
Wizard: 'Zero and dying.'
Cleric (to fighter): 'Next time we'll just start a fight with the bard so you can catch him.'

Exactly my point. Readying an action is just anticipating a circumstance and preparing for it. It doesn't even have to be combat based. When I watch someone ski behind a boat, I "ready" an action to tell the drive that they've fallen. They might not fall, but if they do I'm ready because we're responsible adults.

Or when a toddler gets close to the edge of the boat, I get ready to jump in if they lose their balance (they're wearing a life vest btw. I'm not a terrible uncle).

[JoeJ]

Exactly my point. Readying an action is just anticipating a circumstance and preparing for it. It doesn't even have to be combat based. When I watch someone ski behind a boat, I "ready" an action to tell the drive that they've fallen. They might not fall, but if they do I'm ready because we're responsible adults.

Or when a toddler gets close to the edge of the boat, I get ready to jump in if they lose their balance (they're wearing a life vest btw. I'm not a terrible uncle).

If there's no initiative order, what's the difference between readying an action and just taking one after you see something happen?

[PhoenixPhyre]

You can prepare to act at any time. In cases where relative reaction speed and contested timing are involved, you should be acting in initiative order. The rules are more formal there, which minimizes the friction. This includes, but is not limited to, combat.

[Derpaligtr]

If there's no initiative order, what's the difference between readying an action and just taking one after you see something happen?

There isn't one.

You are readying an action, even if you aren't in combat.

People want to rules lawyer 5e, 5e was built around simplicity and using common sense.

Saying "I ready an action too..." and "Once X happens, I'm going to Y" is the same thing.

[PhoenixPhyre]

There isn't one.

You are readying an action, even if you aren't in combat.

People want to rules lawyer 5e, 5e was built around simplicity and using common sense.

Saying "I ready an action too..." and "Once X happens, I'm going to Y" is the same thing.

As long as there's no need to worry about who goes first, that's true.

[Tanarii]

Saying "I ready an action too..." and "Once X happens, I'm going to Y" is the same thing.

And generally speaking, the correct response is "you can tell me when X happens".

What's typically happening is a player is trying to make sure their declaration of intended action gets a chance to be inserted without having to rewind stuff or jump in suddenly.

Technically the same with Ready Actions, except in that case they're giving up their current opportunity to act in order to do so.

[Kuu Lightwing]

I see. Thank you for answers.

Well, my main problem with "just use the surprise rules" is that they don't simulate the situation I try to imagine. Allow me to explain.

Situation: Himiko, Angie, Maki and Gonta are alone in a room. They suspect that there are orks behind the nexy door, and they come up with the plan - Himiko prepares to cast a fireball as soon as Gonta opens the door, after which Gonta instantly shuts it down. Maki prepares to attack them as well.

If we go by surprise rules, everyone gets a full turn, which is not what I imagine - Gonta opens the door, Maki rolls high, runs up to an ork, stabs it with a knife, runs back out, only then Himiko casts fireball, and then Gonta can also run in, stab someone and then even run out and close the door. What Ready would allow to do in this situation, is to make all the actions "smaller" - Gonta opens the door, Himiko releases the fireball and Maki shoots an ork with a crossbow. If orks heard our party, they also could opt for Ready, and shoot back instantly as soon as door opens, some may opt for readying a move to jam the door.

The next issue, is that let's imagine the characters are already in combat and Angie is fighting Zombies while the rest of the team are trying to find a route for escape. Now, since they are in combat already, the whole "Ready a fireball" trick suddenly becomes 100% RAW legal, despite characters being in a more stressful situation. So, why the presence of another threat would make characters react to events better? That also opens up the old "Bag'o'Rats" trick shenanigans, which isn't very desirable.

[JoeJ]

I see. Thank you for answers.

Well, my main problem with "just use the surprise rules" is that they don't simulate the situation I try to imagine. Allow me to explain.

Situation: Himiko, Angie, Maki and Gonta are alone in a room. They suspect that there are orks behind the nexy door, and they come up with the plan - Himiko prepares to cast a fireball as soon as Gonta opens the door, after which Gonta instantly shuts it down. Maki prepares to attack them as well.

If we go by surprise rules, everyone gets a full turn, which is not what I imagine - Gonta opens the door, Maki rolls high, runs up to an ork, stabs it with a knife, runs back out, only then Himiko casts fireball, and then Gonta can also run in, stab someone and then even run out and close the door. What Ready would allow to do in this situation, is to make all the actions "smaller" - Gonta opens the door, Himiko releases the fireball and Maki shoots an ork with a crossbow. If orks heard our party, they also could opt for Ready, and shoot back instantly as soon as door opens, some may opt for readying a move to jam the door.

The next issue, is that let's imagine the characters are already in combat and Angie is fighting Zombies while the rest of the team are trying to find a route for escape. Now, since they are in combat already, the whole "Ready a fireball" trick suddenly becomes 100% RAW legal, despite characters being in a more stressful situation. So, why the presence of another threat would make characters react to events better? That also opens up the old "Bag'o'Rats" trick shenanigans, which isn't very desirable.

And sometime later, when the PCs are taking a break or even relaxing in town after leaving the dungeon, a small party of enemies opens the door to their chamber, shoots a fireball in, and slams the door before any of the PCs can react. That's okay too, right?

[sophontteks]

In the examples you provided the answer is "Use suprise rules." But there are situations out of combat where readying an action is appropriate. Its a thin line.

In one campaign I was luring out an invisible creature with food. Ranged party members readied an action. They would shoot the creature as soon as it takes the bait. I felt that was most appropriate for the situation. It knew where we were, but it wouldn't initiate combat unless we approached, so we initiated with readied actions after tricking it into coming out.

[Arial Black]

This one part I don't agree with. If the non-combat situation that caused initiative to be rolled is still ongoing - for example, a complex trap that hasn't been neutralized yet - then having enemies show up should be no different than having new creatures show up in an ongoing fight. You just roll initiative for the newcomers and add them in to the existing initiative order.

Why should either the party or the newcomers suddenly be immune to surprise, just because the party are messing with a trap?

That would be the effect of your ruling, because if you say that initiative has been going for several rounds then no-one can be surprised because the effects of surprise only occur in round 1.

[JoeJ]

Remember that, although you as DM might know that the monsters are unaware of the party, the PCs don't know that until they open the door. By using Ready you're basically allowing them to create a situation that treats the orcs as if they were surprised even if they aren't. I'm pretty sure that wouldn't fly if you have monsters do that to the PCs, so why is the reverse situation okay?

[Arial Black]

Something that happened in a game:

Fighter: 'I ready an action to catch the wizard when he fails his climb check.'
DM: 'You can't ready actions outside of combat. Roll, wizard.'
Wizard: <roll> <fail>
DM: 'You fall and take <roll> 45 points of damage.'
Wizard: 'Zero and dying.'
Cleric (to fighter): 'Next time we'll just start a fight with the bard so you can catch him.'

As already mentioned, outside of combat you neither have nor need Actions In Combat to do stuff.

In your example, the fighter can certainly be ready to catch the wizard if he falls, no Action In Combat needed (or allowed); he just...does it.

[JoeJ]

Why should either the party or the newcomers suddenly be immune to surprise, just because the party are messing with a trap?

That would be the effect of your ruling, because if you say that initiative has been going for several rounds then no-one can be surprised because the effects of surprise only occur in round 1.

For the same reason that they're immune to surprise if they're already fighting somebody. The characters who are already engaged can't be surprised, which is only fair because surprise would keep them from acting for one round against the threat they already know about and have been dealing with. The newcomers still can be, and any who are will lose their first turn.

The effects of surprise, RAW, don't have to occur on the 1st round of combat; they occur on your first turn.

[Kuu Lightwing]

And sometime later, when the PCs are taking a break or even relaxing in town after leaving the dungeon, a small party of enemies opens the door to their chamber, shoots a fireball in, and slams the door before any of the PCs can react. That's okay too, right?

I mean, why not actually? Obviously if it's done as a proper encounter rather than "oh you killed my monsters, then frak you too!!!" Could actually be interesting adventure hook possibly.

Remember that, although you as DM might know that the monsters are unaware of the party, the PCs don't know that until they open the door. By using Ready you're basically allowing them to create a situation that treats the orcs as if they were surprised even if they aren't. I'm pretty sure that wouldn't fly if you have monsters do that to the PCs, so why is the reverse situation okay?

If monsters are aware, they could also ready actions. Or just slam the door open before players set up their tiny little trick, depending on circumstances or how long they were discussing this.