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Thread: Ready Action and "combat"
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2018-06-14, 06:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ready Action and "combat"
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2018-06-14, 06:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ready Action and "combat"
I should clarify how I actually use Readied action outside of combat. You can ready actions outside of combat. They do not go off outside of combat, but instead use your reaction on the first turn. It's been a long day and I'm very tired otherwise I would have included it in my original post, my apologies.. I'll add it in.
with that in mind
A) If the archer misses the orc probably kills him before he gets off another shot because it is in the archers face.
B) Orcs set up ambush. I use surprise round as normal. I probably don't bother with initiative in the surprise round unless I have mages who know shield or a similar spell.
I don't use readied actions to abuse the rules. I use them when they make sense. I allow my PC's to do the same. Just blanket statement saying "no readied actions outside of combat" leads to some very silly situations and it's own abuses.Last edited by p_johnston; 2018-06-14 at 06:43 PM.
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2018-06-14, 06:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ready Action and "combat"
That situation was just an example to highlight the most absurd case. The most typical example for why this comes up is with highway robbers and prisoners.
Robbers- Party is facing bandit group who have 15 crossbows trained on party. Party draws weapons, closes distance and starts killing bandits before bandits can twitch a finger.
Prisoners- Archer says he is prepared to shoot the prisoner if he runs. Prisoner runs. Enter initiative, prisoner wins and escapes before archer can fire.
Both scenarios seem absurd to me.
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2018-06-14, 07:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ready Action and "combat"
The absurdity is because you're arbitrarily allowing one side to take a hostile acton - pointing a weapon - without rolling initiative, and forcing the other side to just stand there and wait.
Here's how I'd do it (still assuming nobody is surprised). Everyone is pretending to be friendly when, suddenly, the bandits pull out crossbows and point them toward the party. Roll initiative.
1. Bandits win initiative. They Ready an action to attack if anybody moves and call for the party to surrender.
2. PCs win initiative and attack before the bandits can raise their crossbows and take aim.
The prisoner scenario works the same way. Roll initiative when somebody commits a hostile act, like pointing a weapon.
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2018-06-14, 07:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ready Action and "combat"
If we could all agree on when exactly initiative should be rolled and in what circumstances surprise is determined we could end a lot of these disagreements. The fact that it varies seems to be at the root of the problem.
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2018-06-14, 08:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ready Action and "combat"
In A) the archer goes twice if they win initiative: once for the Ready Action and once for their turn, hence two Actions before the Orc gets a chance to go.
In B), and every ambush that should ever happen, if you play this way, the Orcs would take the Ready Action outside of combat to attack whomever they see. Therefore, using your rules, they’d get their Reaction off right after initiative is rolled, then the first round of combat would kick off with the PCs being surprised and the Orcs getting their normal turns.
I’m not sure why, if you allow Ready Actions outside of combat, ambushes wouldn’t always have it prepared.
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2018-06-14, 08:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ready Action and "combat"
No. If you allow Ready outside of combat, then in the scenario I was responding to, the Archer could very well go twice: once with their Reaction and then on their own Turn, which if the Archer has a higher initiative, would happen with back-to-back attacks.
In this scenario, it’s not the PCs who Ready; it’s the ambushing Orcs. Again, going with the idea that Ready is allowed outside of combat, every ambush would start with Reaction attacks, then with initiative order with the ambushed side being surprised.
Allowing Ready outside of combat essentially makes ambushes twice as effective.
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2018-06-14, 08:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ready Action and "combat"
Nothing says you can’t give Advantage or Disadvantage on initiative rolls, in fact: “The DM can also decide that circumstances influence a roll in one direction or the other and grant advantage or impose disadvantage as a result.”
In either situation you could give Dis/Advantage or consider it a fast paced situation in which you enter initiative before combat begins.
Keep in mind, drawing a weapon isn’t really considered much in 5e; though, giving Advantage on initiative to a character who has already drawn doesn’t seem inappropriate to me.Last edited by RSP; 2018-06-14 at 10:29 PM.
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2018-06-14, 08:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-06-14, 08:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ready Action and "combat"
I like this approach. Ready is available outside of combat on an ad-hoc basis, and only when it makes the most sense for how to model the in-game action. In most cases it won't be needed, and therefore isn't generally available. That keeps the upsides (for those tables that see an upside) while avoiding the downside of potential exploitability. If a player is uncertain if Ready is available in a given out-of-combat situation, they can simply ask.
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2018-06-14, 09:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ready Action and "combat"
If it's the archer's turn, the orc isn't moving, so no triggering the readied attack.
No. Doesn't matter who the ambusher is, he can't both Ready an attack and also Attack on the same round, in combat or out of it. Being out of combat doesn't magically double your number of actions per round.Last edited by MaxWilson; 2018-06-14 at 09:07 PM.
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2018-06-14, 09:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-06-14, 10:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ready Action and "combat"
"When X tosses the rope I jump"
"I take the reins and get ready for when Y gets on"
"I note the pattern of the gates and sprint through when they all open in sequence"
Any sort of situation that requires timing and also features the looming threat of combat or other cause for initiative. You readying these actions means your PC is busy on that task, and cannot respond as they normally would if combat begins in the meantime.
If there is no such urgency, just narrate it.Last edited by Kane0; 2018-06-14 at 10:26 PM.
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2018-06-14, 10:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ready Action and "combat"
You’re missing the situation. Per what was given, Ready happens outside of combat, but prior to whatever the Ready is, combat starts and initiative is rolled.
Therefore, in the given situation, the Archer Ready’s to Attack when the Orc starts to move. When the Orc starts to move combat starts, initiative is rolled but the Reaction Attack from Ready occurs, then the Archer wins initiative, and, as such, gets to attack again.
Well, if you believe you can Ready outside of combat, then you certain can: the Ready occurs outside of combat so it cannot also be their first Turn within combat.
Once combat starts, Ready would use the character’s Reaction, not their Action. In an ambush situation, you would have the out-of-combat Ready of “I Ready to Attack the first enemy I see.” Upon seeing the enemy, your Reaction would kick in, giving an attack. Then you would also get your normal turn in initiative and all that brings: Actions, Bonus Actions, whatever.
Why would the rules of how Ready works change from the RAW? That alone would suggest RAW, you can not Ready outside of combat.
Now, I’m of the mind Ready can’t happen outside combat, but if you play it can, this is completely valid.
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2018-06-14, 10:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ready Action and "combat"
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2018-06-14, 10:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ready Action and "combat"
The situation was something like a standoff where the Archer is Ready to fire if the Orc moves. If you allow the Ready outside of combat, then when the Orc moves, the Reaction occurs. Nothing happens until the Orc moves but everything goes in motion from that, including, presumably, the start of combat.
The Reaction occurs immediately after it’s trigger. So Orc move, then Reaction. Now the Archer’s turn starts. The Reaction, by RAW, will complete before the next turn starts.
Think of it like this: let’s say the Ready was “If the Orc Attacks Steve, I Attack the Orc.” The Orc then Attacks Steve, but the Orc’s Turn ends following the attack and you go next. Do you lose your Ready Action because you’re next in the order and coincidentally the trigger occurred right before your turn? No. You get your Reaction Attack, then your turn starts.
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2018-06-14, 11:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ready Action and "combat"
The way i see it:
start
1 Player readies to attack if orc moves
2 Orc moves
3 Player uses reaction, attacks orc
4 If player kills orc goto end, else to go 5
5 Orc finishes move
6 Roll initiative (no surprise), resolve combat.
end
So it appears that yes, the player can attack and then attack again, but the orc still gets to finish his move in between the two if he doesn't die in that hit.
Personally I'd chalk that up to the benefits of winning initiative.Roll for it 5e Houserules and Homebrew
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2018-06-15, 12:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ready Action and "combat"
So you essentially allow combat outside of combat. That is, each Ready an action (move vs attack) and for whatever reason one goes first, each get to complete their Action, then combat starts?
Why have the arbitrarily decided not Round of Combat and why not just start combat and have initiative determine who goes when?
More often than not there’s more than one Player and more than one enemy. If they all Ready, who goes when? Why create a whole system of “not combat” to decide combat when initiative already does this?
In this example, the standoff is in place. Start initiative. If Archer wins, then they Ready to Attack on the Orc’s move. If the Orc wins, they move before firing. Is it odd that the Orc moves before the Archer looses an arrow? Not anymore than any other round of combat where individuals get to move before others can take any sort of action.
Flip it around. If the Player says “I Ready to move when the Orc nocks an arrow,” should the Player just get a full move, out of combat round, before the Orc can fire an already nocked arrow?
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2018-06-15, 12:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ready Action and "combat"
I didn't say it's what I do, that is my reading of what you were discussing with p_johnston.
Combat and turns have to start somewhere, any time chosen is potentially arbitrary to somebody. It is a chicken-and-egg scenario where there is a potentially awkward clunk when gears are changed between narration and initiative.
For what it's worth, I agree with you. 99% of the time initiative solves our problems. Its those weird edge cases that can stump some DMs and bring them here to ask about it.Roll for it 5e Houserules and Homebrew
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2018-06-15, 01:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ready Action and "combat"
Dude, if you're inventing bad rules that lead to illogical outcomes, that's on you, not on me. I already told you how to rule out such that everything works together logically; when you introduce extra rules on top such as "the orc doesn't get to finish his turn because combat just started," you're responsible for the breakage.
Consider how it would work of combat had already started: archer readies an action, orc does nothing except talk, round ends without triggering the action. Repeat for a while until orc eventually charges. Archer gets his readied attack, then the orc hits him if he's still alive. The scenario should play out identically whether you count that Ready as happening "outside of combat" or not. When you decide to end the round in the middle of the orc's turn so you can reroll initiative, you're cheating the orc out of his action. That's on you.
It's not readying "outside of combat" that's causing the problem here. It's the way you're running the transition from non-combat you combat, as if it were some kind of videogame loading a separate combat mode divorced from the pre-combat reality.
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2018-06-15, 01:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ready Action and "combat"
I'm happy to clarify.
My comment was directed at an example where a fireball was cast at enemies, before initiative was rolled.
There is nothing preventing spell casting outside combat, per se. But, and this is the crucial bit, IF the spell you cast is an attempt to harm (or otherwise mess with) the enemy, this is combat, and MUST therefore be resolved in combat rounds and initiative order.
NOT because you cast a spell, but because that particular casting initiated combat.
If you want to cast a spell outside of a Combat Round, where that spell does NOT initiate combat, then you can, and you don't need to use the Cast A Spell action to do so (and can't even if you wanted to); you just cast it.
Does that answer your question?
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2018-06-15, 02:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ready Action and "combat"
I guess my last question wasn't as clear cut as I thought it was. Here's what I tell players who ask if they can ready an attack outside of combat:
"No that's what the surprise mechanic is for"
Or alternatively
"Yes but all the monsters are also readying attacks for the first opponent they see. So we'll just do initiative"
If you could ready attacks to go off before initiative, everyone would carry a crossbow around for that first free hit.
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2018-06-15, 02:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ready Action and "combat"
I'll tell you why what you are doing is cheating: you are trying to get your side of the imminent combat into Combat Rounds and initiative order, while at the same time denying your opponents access to their place in the initiative order, to do their own planning, their own Actions, denying them their chance to act before you by being immune to surprise/beating your Stealth check/not suffering from surprise, and possibly getting your side the chance to act twice before they even get to act once, even if they are NOT surprised and three times if they are.
And your excuse for this is to misuse the 'initiative can also be used for fast-paced situations' clause, saying that the very fact you are planning for combat means that you need the 'non-combat fast-paced' initiative so that you can use it to to segue nicely into actual combat, giving your side a massive, unfair advantage, against the rules, just by saying, "I'm planning!"
It is a breathtakingly blatant attempt to cheat.
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2018-06-15, 02:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ready Action and "combat"
I can't believe there's 8 pages worth of discussion being had over this.
There is really no right or wrong way to handle this, it's all really up to what you as a DM will allow.
For me personally, I would allow the players to perform one round of actions in the order they want to as their surprise actions, as I count it as them setting off the combat only when the enemy is made aware of their prescence. A surprise round is after all usually afforded monsters caught off-guard. If the players plan is to open a door, launch a fireball through it and close it again, I will count that as their surprise round. If the players say they want to throw open the door and rush in, fireballs and swords flashing, I will ask everyone to roll their initiative and roll the goblins and then afford the players a whole round of actions for free. Their actions become determined by their rolls. Meanwhile in the former scenario, they got things to play out how they wanted it to at the cost of no need to worry about order, delay or readying.
For monsters setting up ambushes, I will usually allow the players a perception check to see if they catch the ambush and if they don't, the monsters will get a surprise round against the player. I get to determine their order as I am the DM and usually it won't involve "open the door and fireball the party and close the door on them". That seems needlessly cruel to do to the players.
Also combat rounds do exist outside of combat, it's referred to as time passing. That is why you can do things like cast teleport outside of combat, you can throw fireballs at trees on the horizon if you want to and you can hit walls with your swords and break through dungeon walls if you want to. There is a reason we refer to 10 rounds as a minute.
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2018-06-15, 03:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ready Action and "combat"
None of those situations requires a Ready action unless initiative was rolled, in which case the situation is combat-rule-based.
By the rules, the Orc and the PC would both have had to roll initiative BEFORE the Orc could move, and by definition before the PC could prepare.
Because they were clearly engaging in a combat encounter.
The PC don't get an extra out-of-turn Ready action for no reason so that they can shoot the Orc.Last edited by Unoriginal; 2018-06-15 at 03:11 AM.
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2018-06-15, 03:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ready Action and "combat"
How is that needlessly cruel? Aren't the players prepared for their characters to be on the receiving end of the same tactic they themselves use? If you're playing the monsters as if they want to lose, aren't you basically cheating your players out of a fair challenge?
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2018-06-15, 04:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ready Action and "combat"
I do not do such thing. If orcs are aware of the party they are free to ready their own actions and do their own planning. If the players are the ones that have access to door's open/close mechanism, then they have tactical advantage - as it should be. But that doesn't mean that orcs cannot do their own thing.
I use the rules, I don't misuse them. Yes, they create a fast-paced situation, because they want to precisely sequence their actions, therefore they need to roll initiative. Players have tactical advantage by being able to exploit the fact that they control when exactly they are going to be able to affect the enemy. Denying them this advantage for no apparent reason, feels like bad DMing.Last edited by Kuu Lightwing; 2018-06-15 at 04:55 AM.
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2018-06-15, 06:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ready Action and "combat"
Please read back before responding. It’s not my situation. I was responding to how another stated they play it.
Now as to what you’ve said: “when you introduce extra rules on top such as "the orc doesn't get to finish his turn because combat just started," you're responsible for the breakage.”
How does the Orc get to “finish his turn” when you’re outside of combat and initiative, and there are no Turns yet? That’s an issue because there are no turns yet. Plus, the Orc didn’t Ready anything, so why would they get a “Turn?” If you just assume everyone “Readys” an Action before combat, all you’ve done, again, is create a ‘non-combat combat’ that doesn’t have the benefit of initiative to dictate who goes first.
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2018-06-15, 06:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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2018-06-15, 06:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ready Action and "combat"
Combat Rounds do not exist outside of combat: you’re either in combat or are not. Rounds can exist outside combat.
Either way, initiative is how Rounds and Turns are defined:
“A round represents about 6 seconds in the game world. During a round, each participant in a battle takes a turn. The order of turns is determined at the beginning of a combat encounter, when everyone rolls initiative.”
You cannot, RAW, have Turns without initiative. When initiative is rolled, combat or fast paced timing begins:
“Initiative determines the order of turns during combat. When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order.”
So you cannot have Turns outside of initiative.
Also, keep in mind, the Player describes what their character does, and the DM determines how to resolve what is described. So a Player stating “I Ready to Attack” is really just shorthand for “My character gets ready to attack the Orc if the Orc moves.” Obviously, the Orc is also getting ready to do something (at the least, moving). So whose “ready to do something” goes first? Whomever has the higher initiative.