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Thread: 3.5e or Next?

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    Default Re: 3.5e or Next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pelle View Post
    Yeah. All those people dissuading you from just taking Toughness feats assume you want a character that can contribute equally as a spellcaster. Is that really important to you?

    Not really, playing the kind of character I want to play is more important to me.

    If so, playing a Fighter at all is pointless in 3.5, unless the others are passive players or have pity on you and hold back...
    If not, just take Tougness (or other passive benefits) and play along.

    Cool!

    Thanks!

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    Default Re: 3.5e or Next?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Then please tell me an equivalent "training wheels class" that's as east to play as a 5e WD&D Champion Fighter or any TD&D Fighter
    I wasn't saying that every 3e class has equivalent complexity to its 5e version, or that the average complexity level is lower for all classes. There are certainly players such as yourself who find any amount of choice or complexity to be too much and just want to hop in and roll dice without making any character-building decisions.

    My point, rather, was that it's portrayed as though 5e is simplicity itself, 3e is a math test, and that 5e is the obvious choice for newbies, when in fact the levels of complexity for the various editions are similar enough at low levels that it comes down entirely to player tolerance for making choices and player and DM preference for rules philosophy. There are lots of people who find AD&D totally unapproachable, but you and I have no problems with it and you strongly prefer it, for instance.

    For every player who finds the 5e Champion fighter desirable because you don't have to make decisions, there's one who finds the Champion fighter intolerable because you can't make decisions; for every player who prefers the 5e feat system because you have fewer but larger feats, there's a player who prefers the 3e feat system because you get them earlier and more often. I just hate to see people automatically recommending 5e because of the most-newbie-friendly perception when that's not the case.
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    Default Re: 3.5e or Next?

    The 3.5 forums do have a habit of suggesting gawdawful complex builds with half a dozen classes and full spellcasting and a million moving parts when somebody asks for suggestions for newbies. I don't know if they're sadistic or just dumb.

    That said, if you can't handle flanking ("on opposite sides of the target" is not a difficult concept for Medium or smaller targets and only a little complicated for Large and larger ones) or rage (an irritating (hence why I never play barbarians) but very simple adding and subtracting a handful of piddly numbers), I don't think any edition of D&D is right for you.
    Last edited by Malimar; 2018-06-13 at 12:39 PM.

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    Default Re: 3.5e or Next?

    I'd suggest that it depends on the kind of game you want to play. If you're going to do a dungeon crawl, 5e is probably the best option, as it has simpler mechanics. If you want to do anything else, though, 3.P handles non-combat stuff (like having a decent skill system, or class abilities that you can use outside of a dungeon) a lot better.

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    Default Re: 3.5e or Next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malimar View Post
    The 3.5 forums do have a habit of suggesting gawdawful complex builds with half a dozen classes and full spellcasting and a million moving parts when somebody asks for suggestions for newbies. I don't know if they're sadistic or just dumb.
    The 3.5 forums also have a habit of 1) Being *much* more optimized than the average player (or table, for that matter), and 2) Squeezing the min/max synergies to the stratosphere, so it's likely any part of such a suggested build could be removed. Just my 2 cents (or points, for that matter).

    It's been done to death, but I'm with the bandwagon of "go with whatever works best for you and your mates". Since it'd (if 3.5) E6, the ugly face of 3.5 won't show itself and it's pretty much a coin toss of which one you should choose.
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    Default Re: 3.5e or Next?

    Quote Originally Posted by hymer View Post
    The only way you can be sure is to try both.
    Basically this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aetis View Post
    People who like 5e are gonna tell you to play 5e. People who like 3.5 are gonna tell you to play 3.5.

    I'll tell you right now that system's not gonna matter to a good DM. You should just stick to what you know.
    I personally prefer PF (and SF) but I frequently recommend 5e. It depends on what the group wants, not what I want. I agree with your second statement though, with the caveat that "if you're willing to learn a new system, go for it!"

    And to be honest, all three of the Big 3 have an easy learning curve anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malimar View Post
    I vastly prefer 3.5e but I'd still recommend 5e for newbies. In my opinion, 3.5e is a better game than 5e in the same way Dwarf Fortress is a better game than The Sims: ultimately it is, but you practically need a PhD in the game before you can start extracting fun from it. Using 3.5e as a newbie's first introduction to D&D verges on the cruel and unusual.
    If you can get a PF Beginner's Box though, that's a way to start with the harder system without as many problems personally.

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    smile Re: 3.5e or Next?

    I would say it depends on who is in your group of players.

    Younger folks who have never played anything before tend to do better with 5E.

    Experienced roleplayers, older, and those who have played other games should do better with 3.5 or PF.

    If you have a mix, then do what you're comfortable with, and go. No right or wrong answer, but it comes down to what's more fun for the players?

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    Default Re: 3.5e or Next?

    I'll chime in that 3rd ed is comparably harder to get into then 5th ed IF you throw every option at newbies... which I wouldn't do in either case.

    Were I to be chained and forced to run both games for newbies, in both case I'd come with a handful of pregens, walk them through the character sheet and ask them to pick whichever character they'd like and if they want to switch a few things out then so be it, but I wouldn't introduce newbies to game with the character building part and all options available.

    I'd tell them "each of you pick a character from these ones, you're all part of an adventuring company and you're currently on the road to the Town of Citiesburgh to speak with Sage Fumblebeard about the Creepy Tower Over Yonder you were hired to examine on the offchance a creepy necromancer or something has taken up residence" or tack-on an in-media-res with "And you get jumped by a group of haggard-looking bandits, arms at the ready!"

    Once we've run them through the 2-3 session adventure, We'll see if they want to roll up new characters, modify the current ones or keep them as is and level up.

    With anyone new to something, you try to ease them in.

    More experienced players, or at least those with a head for mechanics, can probably figure out character building in either system by themselves, but even then, a bunch of pregens helps you get the newbies to the game much faster.

    Yes 3rd ed is a heftier system then 5th, but in practice, not by a significant amount.

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    Default Re: 3.5e/PF or 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marden View Post
    ....Younger folks who have never played anything before tend to do better with 5E.

    Experienced roleplayers, older, and those who have played other games should do better with 3.5 or PF....

    Um, I turn 50 years old next week and PF intimidates me, but most of my RPG experience was in the 1980's (many games, but AD&D, Call of Cthullu, D&D, and Traveller were probably the ones I played the most).

    For those who grew up with 3.5 and/or PF I imagine it's easier (just as 1e AD&D is relatively easy for me despite being pretty wonky), but for someone (me) who played a lot of RPG's from 1978 to 1992, but none between 1993 and 2015, PF just doesn't seem that easy..

    Quote Originally Posted by oxybe View Post
    ....Were I to be chained and forced to run both games for newbies, in both case I'd come with a handful of pregens, walk them through the character sheet and ask them to pick whichever character they'd like and if they want to switch a few things out then so be it, but I wouldn't introduce newbies to game with the character building part and all options available.....

    Can you be my DM?

    That's how I remember D&D being taught and played years ago, but mostly I see a "sink or swim" attitude now, with lots of "maybe your just not smart enough" comments.

    With 5e I could suss out for myself a "training wheels" class and just play, and while I did encounter some obnoxious "how dare you reduce party effectiveness by not utilizing maximum optimization" type, other players told me "nah it's close enough", and I could just play, but with 3.5/PF I'm repeatably told that I "can't just play" and "have to study and make a build first", which is completely backwards to how I remember the game used to be, as it used to be one would play first, have fun, and then decide to study the rules further.

    There's a lot that I see in 3.5/PF that looks appealing, but without an opportunity to learn the rules a little bit at a time in play I have too little free time to bother.

    "Homework first, then you get to play" doesn't look like a way to grow the hobby to me.

    Despite it's share of gatekeeping "How dare you not optimize!" players, 5e is a welcoming rules system to new players (where it fails is in encouraging new DM's).

    There is supposed to be a revision of Pathfinder soon, and I hope they have a training wheels class in the new core rules.
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    Default Re: 3.5e or Next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    It's been done to death, but I'm with the bandwagon of "go with whatever works best for you and your mates". Since it'd (if 3.5) E6, the ugly face of 3.5 won't show itself and it's pretty much a coin toss of which one you should choose.
    Yeah - both 3.5 & Pathfinder even moreso are pretty balanced for the first 8ish levels. It's really only when level 5+ spells come into play that the wheels start to come off. (And at most tables it's not bad until the teens.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pelle
    Yeah. All those people dissuading you from just taking Toughness feats assume you want a character that can contribute equally as a spellcaster. Is that really important to you? If so, playing a Fighter at all is pointless in 3.5, unless the others are passive players or have pity on you and hold back...
    In an E6 game a fighter should be able to contribute fine (they do somewhat better in Pathfinder than 3.5 - but both are okay). They won't get all of the OOC goodness, but a decent fighter should be churning out a good chunk of damage, which is pretty much all you need at low levels. (Though - their bonus feats will become less useful in an E6 game as everyone keeps gaining more feats past level 6. And really - in an E6 game is the one time besides a level 1-3 one-shot where I might consider taking 3.5's Toughness.)
    Last edited by CharonsHelper; 2018-06-18 at 08:00 AM.

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    confused Re: 3.5e or Next?

    I just noticed something 'bout the OP (emphasis added):

    Quote Originally Posted by Sm3gl View Post
    [...]Even all these years later (13 or more) I still remember so much about 3.5 but it seems in the modern world of apps I could benefit from some of the content generation and encounter management available from the apps for Next.[...]

    "Apps for Next"?

    What in the Abyss are those?
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    Default Re: 3.5e or Next?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    "Apps for Next"?

    What in the Abyss are those?
    Apps for 5th edition I'd assume. Stuff like D&D Beyond, or third-party stuff for Android, iOS, browser...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: 3.5e/PF or 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Can you be my DM?

    That's how I remember D&D being taught and played years ago, but mostly I see a "sink or swim" attitude now, with lots of "maybe your just not smart enough" comments.

    With 5e I could suss out for myself a "training wheels" class and just play, and while I did encounter some obnoxious "how dare you reduce party effectiveness by not utilizing maximum optimization" type, other players told me "nah it's close enough", and I could just play, but with 3.5/PF I'm repeatably told that I "can't just play" and "have to study and make a build first", which is completely backwards to how I remember the game used to be, as it used to be one would play first, have fun, and then decide to study the rules further.

    There's a lot that I see in 3.5/PF that looks appealing, but without an opportunity to learn the rules a little bit at a time in play I have too little free time to bother.

    "Homework first, then you get to play" doesn't look like a way to grow the hobby to me.

    Despite it's share of gatekeeping "How dare you not optimize!" players, 5e is a welcoming rules system to new players (where it fails is in encouraging new DM's).

    There is supposed to be a revision of Pathfinder soon, and I hope they have a training wheels class in the new core rules.
    If you ever find yourself in Atlantic Canada, sure.

    Honestly, if the DMGs (or their equivalent chapters) would prioritize teaching the game instead first and foremost (and i'm talking out of the DMG not a seperate "starter set"), the larger issue of how voluminous rules heavy games in general are perceived wouldn't be nearly as bad.

    This is where I believe that TTRPGs should ape from videogames. There are a lot of really good tutorial stages that slowly release abilities to the players as they examine and test them in relative safety, and then unleash them on the world, and the main game, when they're comfortable.

    Then again, a "DMG" by me would look nothing like any D&D DMGs before it. All that rules stuff i'd toss in the PHB and/or MM most of the DMG would focus on discussing the why and hows of being a GM and probably come across as a system neutral book more then anything. At least it would try, but i'm a very tired and snarky man, so I wouldn't be able to guarantee a helpful tone.

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    Default Re: 3.5e/PF or 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by oxybe View Post
    This is where I believe that TTRPGs should ape from videogames. There are a lot of really good tutorial stages that slowly release abilities to the players as they examine and test them in relative safety, and then unleash them on the world, and the main game, when they're comfortable.
    Levelling systems actually do that pretty dang well for players, but it's effect is much more limited on helping the GM.

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    Default Re: 3.5e/PF or 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    With 5e I could suss out for myself a "training wheels" class and just play, and while I did encounter some obnoxious "how dare you reduce party effectiveness by not utilizing maximum optimization" type, other players told me "nah it's close enough", and I could just play, but with 3.5/PF I'm repeatably told that I "can't just play" and "have to study and make a build first", which is completely backwards to how I remember the game used to be, as it used to be one would play first, have fun, and then decide to study the rules further.

    There's a lot that I see in 3.5/PF that looks appealing, but without an opportunity to learn the rules a little bit at a time in play I have too little free time to bother.
    This is easily solved by someone more experienced building your character for you. Just state what you want to be able to do. I have yet to see a group for 3.5 or PF where everyone is green.

    (I have seen this for Starfinder, but SF satisfies such an identifiable niche that at least one person is going to do the legwork to learn how to play and teach others to play.)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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