OOTS #1124 - The Discussion Thread

[Snails]

Wait wait, all this time Elan could have been good at combat without punning, and all it took was being dominated?

Maybe. Or he just needed a Chaos Sabre and someone Lawful to stick it in.

[Ghosty]

"I can't believe you turned on Durkon, Roy!"

I misread this.

That's hot. /Paris

"Enough! Take it to the fanfiction sites!"

As to the story, as someone noted upthread, widely available means for instant vampirization (provided you're a fairly high level cleric) is pretty much a death sentence for underground species such as the Dwarves, right, if Hel manages to get enough clerics who can cast the spell? Maybe the spell is 5th level or higher though, so it'd take awhile for those clerics to show up in Stickworld outside of Greg's group? Or, as some authors have written them, any large enough group of vampires, will inevitably turn on itself and thin itself out? But absent that, this looks a lot like an exponentially growing disease without a lot of factors which could slow it down.

I mean, the Order is a really high level adventuring party, and they're having fits dealing with this group. What chances do smaller villages or groups have?

[Resileaf]

That's hot. /Paris

"Enough! Take it to the fanfiction sites!"

As to the story, as someone noted upthread, widely available means for instant vampirization (provided you're a fairly high level cleric) is pretty much a death sentence for underground species such as the Dwarves, right, if Hel manages to get enough clerics who can cast the spell? Maybe the spell is 5th level or higher though, so it'd take awhile for those clerics to show up in Stickworld outside of Greg's group? Or, as some authors have written them, any large enough group of vampires, will inevitably turn on itself and thin itself out? But absent that, this looks a lot like an exponentially growing disease without a lot of factors which could slow it down.

I mean, the Order is a really high level adventuring party, and they're having fits dealing with this group. What chances do smaller villages or groups have?

Only the current group of Hel-following vampires know the spell. Once they die, knowledge of the spell will die with them. After all, Roy destroyed the magic staff that Greg used to research it.

[Chei]

Only the current group of Hel-following vampires know the spell. Once they die, knowledge of the spell will die with them. After all, Roy destroyed the magic staff that Greg used to research it.

Indeed. That leaves two to four vampires with knowledge of the spell, one of which, Durkon*, is probably not going to be around by the book's end. I do think there's room for Ponchula or Hammerfell to end up as loose ends, though, much like Tarquin's empire.

Hmm, and much like the loose threads from Blood, maybe Ponchula's loose thread will implicitly be cut by the minor heroic characters we've gotten to know this book - Minrah, or maybe even Bandana and the crew.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Only the current group of Hel-following vampires know the spell. Once they die, knowledge of the spell will die with them. After all, Roy destroyed the magic staff that Greg used to research it.

Nope. If Ponchella knows it, then Durkula pretty much has to have given the spell to Hel so she can grant it normally.

Well, he could have scribed a scroll with it which she could then study, but that's awfully time intensive when they have a deadline.

[Snails]

To be honest I'm having trouble reconciling it with 948. How do memories happen at the speed of thought and there's no lag but it's still going on? Maybe best for me not to think about it.

"Speed of thought" does not mean anything, really. It just sounds like an explanation when it isn't one. I cannot recall and consider my own well-integrated memories faster than merely fast, so why should a vampire be vastly better at this in the middle of combat? Greg can sometimes because some processes go the "speed of plot" when it tells a better tale to reveal that way, rather than make an understandable kind of sense.

I would guess "speed of thought" is very fast when the vampire focuses and chooses to force the the memories out. But there may be practical limits about doing so in the middle of combat like this, although perhaps a degree of disinterest or ambivalence on Greg's part is the primary factor.

[majesticmoose]

A Dominated person carries out his orders to the exclusion of all other activities except those needed for day-to-day survival. That means Elan was explicitly ordered to convert Roy to the Dominated side, not just attack Roy.

OOTS Domination is different enough from RAW Domination that the "exclusion of all other activities" part may well have been dropped. Showing the dominated characters as distorted versions of themselves, as opposed to almost-entirely-suppressed versions of themselves, is arguably more interesting, and story trumps rules.

[Fyraltari]

As to the story, as someone noted upthread, widely available means for instant vampirization (provided you're a fairly high level cleric) is pretty much a death sentence for underground species such as the Dwarves, right, if Hel manages to get enough clerics who can cast the spell? Maybe the spell is 5th level or higher though, so it'd take awhile for those clerics to show up in Stickworld outside of Greg's group? Or, as some authors have written them, any large enough group of vampires, will inevitably turn on itself and thin itself out? But absent that, this looks a lot like an exponentially growing disease without a lot of factors which could slow it down.

I mean, the Order is a really high level adventuring party, and they're having fits dealing with this group. What chances do smaller villages or groups have?

Hel doesn't have high-level Clerics apat from these, she barely even have Clerics at all since sheis limited to undead and they get killed before mid-level, or something.

Vampires are parasitic, they can't let themselves grow exponentially ithout destroying their food source. Hel, their case is even worse than real parasites, not only do they not die of old age but reproducing means diminishing their prey's number.

When I wrote tht I thought they'd be a recurring issue for the Dwarves I meant like flu used to be: bothersome, regularly killed many people but never actually society destroying (okay the spanish flu came close but it didn't actually do it).

[Dion]

Didn't we see Hurak and Blackore's discussion in On the Origin of PCs, though?
At some point you have to take exposition at face value,you know.

I was arguing with someone who said it’s only only a prophecy if it actually happens. If we accept that definition of prophecy, and since it hasn’t happened yet, then logically it’s obviously not a prophecy.

But that’s a silly definition of prophecy, and I should have ignored it.

What we know is that there exists a prediction that durkon will bring death and destruction to us all. What we don’t know is how that prediction will be resolved; in fact, it’s generally true that most predictions in stickverse are resolved in a manner that is unexpected by the characters involved.

[Sacredweapon]

Here's an insane thought. Perhaps it's not just the reader that missed the detail of the back room, but Greg as well.

Perhaps Durkon wants him to go back there.

Perhaps it's a sunroom.

[JT]

Thought I saw another vamp die. Alas, it was just her eyebrows and the line of her bangs appearing to form a pair of "X"s.

Nothing else to add... I should have waited a while before reading this so clicking on "next" wouldn't be futile. (It was great when I first found OOTs, and for about an hour, I could do that!) :)

[Peelee]

I was arguing with someone who said it’s only only a prophecy if it actually happens.

Except I haven't seen anyone claim that. I claimed that if we are shown that a "prophecy" is patently false, then it is not a prophecy, but it doesn't work the other way. A genie who says "your wish is my command" doesn't get to say "and by that logic, my command is your wish, so I command you to with me free."

[Resileaf]

Nope. If Ponchella knows it, then Durkula pretty much has to have given the spell to Hel so she can grant it normally.

Well, he could have scribed a scroll with it which she could then study, but that's awfully time intensive when they have a deadline.

Well I don't know if they can give the spell to Hel. You'd think a goddess would know every spell ever after all. It feels much more likely that Greg gave Ponchella the ability to cast that spell herself through that scroll scribing (or from another method. Greg learned it from studying Malack's staff, so maybe he managed to grant it to her in some other way than scrolls).
Plus, there was a lot of time between their teleportation and needing to wait for the dwarven council to meet. Maybe he had time to share then. They've been in that hall for a while.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Well I don't know if they can give the spell to Hel. You'd think a goddess would know every spell ever after all. It feels much more likely that Greg gave Ponchella the ability to cast that spell herself through that scroll scribing (or from another method. Greg learned it from studying Malack's staff, so maybe he managed to grant it to her in some other way than scrolls).
Plus, there was a lot of time between their teleportation and needing to wait for the dwarven council to meet. Maybe he had time to share then.

No. There are three ways a cleric gets new spells.

1) Their deity grants it to them
2) They research it themselves (what Durkon did with the staff)
3) Find a scroll with a spell not blocked to them

(3) is kind of a kludge, because post 2E clerics get just about anything not barred by alignment. But it does allow for spells that are otherwise just in a domain to move into the general list.

In theory, any new spell a cleric researches (2) is automatically known to their deity, but the rules do not specify that. There is fluff about the cleric 'donating' the spell to the deity, though.

Also, even if Durkula didn't grant it to Hel, any of the other clerics who know it can. Probably, Malack should also have gifted it to Nergal.

How spells go from deity to deity has never been dealt with, to the best of my knowledge. Probably traded for other considerations.

[Kish]

You'd think a goddess would know every spell ever after all.

You would?

Why?

Does it involve gods being omnipotent, or other things that neither D&D gods nor OotS gods are?

[Peelee]

You would?

Why?

Does it involve gods being omnipotent, or other things that neither D&D gods nor OotS gods are?

I could see someone argue that since clerics of any god get the same spell list (excepting some Domain spells), that every god therefore knows every divine spell. I wouldn't buy it, but I could certainly see someone thinking it.

[b_jonas]

Elan is doing pretty good here. He's doing his job as a bard (singing at monsters). He's already managed to distract and annoy Roy a great deal with his words, so now he can't concentrate on what he's supposed to be doing.

[Fyraltari]

Except I haven't seen anyone claim that. I claimed that if we are shown that a "prophecy" is patently false, then it is not a prophecy, but it doesn't work the other way. A genie who says "your wish is my command" doesn't get to say "and by that logic, my command is your wish, so I command you to with me free."

Well of course, because the Genie is wrongly equating "my command", as in "your order to me", with "my command" as in "my order to you".

In all seriousness though a prophecy is a statement of something that will definitely happen, no question asked, with perfect accuracy (but rarely the full picture) the knowledge of which was supernaturally granted.

So it's not a prophecy because it happened but because it was going to happen, the seer knew it was going to happen and they knew it because magic.

[dtilque]

Oh Gods, Elan's turned Evil. He's in SALES!

Well, at least he isn't in marketing ... yet....

Yes, in that RAW doesn't specify how attacks that don't beat your AC are actually blocked. If you want to RP that you deflect blades with your bare hands (as monks regularly do), nothing in RAW stops you.

Looks like he blocked the sword at the hilt.

Pfffhaha, I just saw Greg's twin statements inside and outside his head.

A joke, or foreshadowing that his inner and outer selves are starting to run together?

They're not exactly the same. The same words, but not the same intonation. That's a common literary technique, but I'm not sure it has any specific meaning. At any rate, the inner and outer Durkula are not separated in any significant way, so I don't think it has any bearing on that.

To be honest I'm having trouble reconciling it with 948. How do memories happen at the speed of thought and there's no lag but it's still going on? Maybe best for me not to think about it.

Probably best. Real memories (and thought) are actually quite slow. And in most fiction, ditto. I don't know why that Doc-Smithian infinte-speed-of-thought was referenced for this strip, but clearly it's only that way when convenient.

Wait wait, all this time Elan could have been good at combat without punning, and all it took was being dominated?

But he's not being good at combat here. He got one hit in while Roy was distracted by a spawn. Since then he hasn't done any damage.

As others have noted, he's not punning. So perhaps that's a way he's resisting the domination. He was ordered to attack Roy, but not necessarily in the most effective way he can.

[Psychronia]

Oooh. We're approaching the climatic reveals of both Durkon's memory play and Roy finally passing along the truth.

[D.One]

Nope. If Ponchella knows it, then Durkula pretty much has to have given the spell to Hel so she can grant it normally.

Well, he could have scribed a scroll with it which she could then study, but that's awfully time intensive when they have a deadline.

As far as I can remember, spell research for clerics works by the researcher learning the gestures and chants/magic words that cast the spell. I may be in error here, don't quite remember how the books deal with it, but I'd say Greg thaught Ponchula the spell, and not that Greg thaught Hel the spell. Then again, I can't remember the exact details.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I know this is going to sound weird, but Elan has a point. If everyone's on the same side again, that solves the problem, doesn't it?

(More seriously, it's going to be more against the nature of most of the dominated people to keep fighting if Roy and the clerics join the dominated peoples' side.)

[TuringTest]

"Speed of thought" does not mean anything... some processes go the "speed of plot" when it tells a better tale to reveal that way, rather than make an understandable kind of sense.

I would guess "speed of thought" is very fast when the vampire focuses and chooses to force the the memories out. But there may be practical limits about doing so in the middle of combat like this, although perhaps a degree of disinterest or ambivalence on Greg's part is the primary factor.

All of you seem to forget that this was a very long memory; the Giant established that there was a full scene of nothing but diswashing, which was explicitly not skippable. At the speed of thought, it seems sensible that 20 memory minutes take at least a few rounds of combat time.

[TRH]

You would?

Why?

Does it involve gods being omnipotent, or other things that neither D&D gods nor OotS gods are?

Even if it were true, that would seem to reinforce, rather than refute, the notion that Hel can grant the spell normally.

[Peelee]

Even if it were true, that would seem to reinforce, rather than refute, the notion that Hel can grant the spell normally.

Kish is indicating there that the gods are not in any way omniscient, and should not be read as such.

[Kish]

Yes, but TRH is pointing out that even if "a goddess knows every spell ever"--that wouldn't lead to "so the spell will die with Greg," but to "so every vampire cleric of Hel can get the spell from her for the rest of eternity."

[One Step Two]

Typical Elan, even while Dominated, he's still helping to disrupt the story with his antics to create a dramatic pause between startling revelations!

And the simplest reason as to why Durkons Memory is taking much longer than Greg is used to is the same reason anything else happens in this comic, because it's way more entertaining!

This strip is great, sign me up for Pizza and Massages!

[Peelee]

Yes, but TRH is pointing out that even if "a goddess knows every spell ever"--that wouldn't lead to "so the spell will die with Greg," but to "so every vampire cleric of Hel can get the spell from her for the rest of eternity."

Whoops. All I remembered was the "youd think a god would know all the spells" bit. My bad!

[Dion]

In all seriousness though a prophecy is a statement of something that will definitely happen, no question asked, with perfect accuracy (but rarely the full picture) the knowledge of which was supernaturally granted.

That’s a very interesting definition; I’ve not seen it before. I’m guessing that’s the definition the giant has said explicitly is in force in his cosmology?

(Separately, I’ll assume that if the high priest of Odin believes he’s been given a prophecy by Odin, then he’s to be trusted. There’s no reason to suppose that someone as wise as a cleric would ever be mistaken. Of the literally dozen or so instances we’ve read in the strip where people learn that what they believed was true was not actually true, it’s never happened to a high level character with high wisdom.)

[GreatWyrmGold]

Spoiler: The Memory

Show

I trust we’re all agreed that, since Roy’s thrown sword kept us from finding out what they showed Durkon in the temple’s back room, it will turn out to be the important revelation, right?

Pretty sure the fact that Durkon wanted to show it to his other half convinced most of us it was important.

It's possible that Durkola's "this happens at the speed of thought" was a lie. Or that it happens at the speed of thought IF he concentrates on it, and forces it. But right now he's just letting it simmer in the back of his mind

It seems to still be going faster than real-time. Unless that one combat round took a while.

But now I'm stuck wondering what is at the back of Thor's temple that has memory Durkon so down. My bet is that it's enough treasure to make a dragon say, "Too much treasure..."
But among that treasure is likely to be an evil relic secured for so long it's been forgotten. A lure to draw Durkula away from the long term goal. Sort of an evil side quest, and we all know how simple straightforward side quests turn out.

Ooh, I like that idea. It's something that could plausibly distract Greg from his goal of destroying the world—something that could help him destroy the world!
It would feel a little contrived if the Church of Thor left such a powerful artifact lying around in a storeroom and this was the first Hel or her servants had heard of it. Either of those alone would feel contrived, actually.

Durkon looks angry and disappointed in one of those memory panels there.
Perhaps there's a disillusionment source that, while not as strong as his anger that spawned Greg when he was vamped, still strongly shapes his personality. And that disillusionment/injustice/whatever else is enough to distract Greg or even forcibly change his priorities?
I guess the question is whether the vampire spirit's personality can be altered by the character development of the original spirit or not.

This idea is also interesting. Less-formed, obviously, but if formed properly I could see it being plausibly effective.

Wait.
Durkon is going to show a memory of a disillusioned freshly initiated cleric with a single motherly figure, who is deprived of what a disillusioned freshly initiated cleric believes she really deserves...to an enthusiastic freshly initiated cleric with a single motherly figure, who is deprived of what an enthusiastic freshly initiated cleric believes she really deserves?

I like where this is going...but it hasn't gotten there yet.

Spoiler: The Prophecy (guitar riff)

Show

No, "prophecy" is a word, that has a meaning. "Being lied to by your sister" is not part of that meaning. "Some prophecies in OotS are lies" is only a true statement if you redefine "prophecy" to include "lies", at which point your statement is tautological, and therefore useless.

To be fair, there are plenty of examples of "prophecies" that fall into the category of "lies". They exist in everything from The Lego Movie to real life. Heck, the only real prophecies that aren't in the "lie" category are ones in the "gibberish" or "bloody obvious" categories.
There is a point buried somewhere in that joke. Dion is saying that a false prophecy and a true prophecy are indistinguishable for the one hearing the prophecy. That is true, even if a false prophecy is not a true prophecy.

Hypothetically, I guess, since "that prophecy that drove your character arc is a lie" unless used to make a point about free will or "anyone can be the hero" is terrible writing and The Giant wouldn't do that to us, would he?

Yeah, he would never write an arc about free will where the central character of said arc is possessed by an outside force!
Jokes aside...I find the idea that the Prophecy was a lie improbable, but I can think of good directions the Giant could take it. They don't strike me as likely, but they strike me as something he could make work.

In the same vein as you can't know that someone is calling you is not lying through their teeth as to who they are, that's correct, but still inherently meaningless. That doesn't mean official business calls are untrustworthy, it just means that a scammer isn't an official business call. Similarly, Hilgya's bluffing wasn't a prophecy, despite how she made it seem. Making a distinction that they couldn't tell being relevant is a bit silly.

Notice how you had to make the distinction between official business calls and just plain business calls. Dion is defining "prophecy" as "predictions about the future"; you are defining it as "accurate predictions about the future".
And I'd argue that "you can't know that someone is calling you is not lying through their teeth as to who they are" is, in fact, meaningful. If nothing else, it's an important first step in teaching someone how to avoid being scammed over the phone.
(Again, I don't think Dion is right, but he's not as wrong as you're making him out to be.)

That's irrelevant, because the story doesn't take place in the real world. It takes place in Stickworld, where, by all indication, prophecies are ALWAYS true. If it's not true, it's not a prophecy. Real-world prophecies have zero bearing on this.

I'll admit that you weren't one of the people calling Dion's statement meaningless by tautology, but I think this is a pretty good statement pointing out how hypocritical they were. After all, "this prophecy is accurate because prophecies are always accurate" is based on the assumption that prophecies are accurate statements, and is hence equivalent to "This accurate statement is accurate because it is an accurate statement, which are always accurate".

Unless we are shown that a prophecy has no divine origin and as such is not actually a prophecy, I see no reason to assume such.

Wait, why is the burden of proof on Dion? You're the one saying that there must be a divine origin to the prophecy (and that said god saw the future accurately), which doesn't sound like a good null hypothesis to me.
Again, while I think you're probably right, your logic is flawed as Baator.

Except I haven't seen anyone claim that. I claimed that if we are shown that a "prophecy" is patently false, then it is not a prophecy, but it doesn't work the other way. A genie who says "your wish is my command" doesn't get to say "and by that logic, my command is your wish, so I command you to with me free."

...You're missing that "my command" isn't being used that way. I mean, "your wish is my command" is kind of nonsensical if you view it that way; I command something that you wish for? I mean, I guess it makes sense if a general is saying "I'll command my army however you wish," but outside that context, it means "I will interpret your wish as if you had commanded me," or in other words, "I will do everything you desire".
Dion isn't doing that; he's not switching between two radically different definitions of a word/phrase. Dion's definition is perfectly valid. It may or may not be useful in this context, but it is valid. Don't pretend it's not.

Spoiler: Random Question

Show

You would? Why? Does it involve gods being omnipotent, or other things that neither D&D gods nor OotS gods are?

If he means "You'd think gods would know every spell their clerics can cast," then I'd agree that makes sense. After all, in theory a cleric casting a spell is just asking their god to intervene on their behalf.
Which brings me to...

Only the current group of Hel-following vampires know the spell. Once they die, knowledge of the spell will die with them. After all, Roy destroyed the magic staff that Greg used to research it.

Hold on a second. This is irrelevant to the comic, but I have to know...how do you research a divine spell? Aren't those supposed to come directly from your god of choice?
(More relevant to the discussion: If Hel had been preparing for the possibility that she might need to plan past the Godsmoot, she could have had Darkon write down enough notes for other vampires to learn the spell.)

Spoiler: Unsorted

Show

"Haley is hurt! She needs healing!"

Aw, man, I only have mass cure light wounds. Well, that means I can cure a dozen more creatures...might as well heal all of Durkon's friends, too!
The downside being that it'd probably deal less than 20 damage to each (10 on a save), so it's still not terribly efficient DPS. (Though I guess getting the enemy to hurt his buddies is good on the action economy...)

The pizza is Hawaiian, and the massages are deep tissue.

Ooh, Hawaiian pizza! That's almost enough to make me tolerate the massage!

I wonder why Sigdi has been giving all her money to the Temple.

...I want to make a joke, but recent threads have reminded me that there's a ban on talking about religion. So, um, fill in your own punchline? Is that allowed?

If forced to pun with dominate person, you get a new saving throw.

Nope. As much as I'd like to, I can't pretend that it isn't in my nature to pun.

Only the current group of Hel-following vampires know the spell. Once they die, knowledge of the spell will die with them. After all, Roy destroyed the magic staff that Greg used to research it.

If Hel had been preparing for the possibility that she might need to plan for this world past the Godsmoot, she could have had Darkon write down enough notes for other vampires to learn the spell. But she probably didn't, so she probably didn't.

Vampires are parasitic have a food source, they can't let themselves grow exponentially ithout destroying their food source.

FTFY.