Final Book Speculation: The Fate of Goblinoids and the Journey to the Pole

[Ionathus]

Hey gang,

I wanted to take a break from the story's current (nail-biting) situation to ponder over what's going to happen next.

Essentially, my question is multi-tiered. In general, I'm wondering what shape the next and final book will take. I'm also, more specifically, wondering about what's going to happen with Redcloak and The Plan.

The Story:
I'm assuming that this book will wrap up in Firmament, or at least somewhere within Dwarven Lands. There's not much distance to go from there (and Tinkertown was supposedly the last settlement on the way before their Dwarven Detour). So if speed with The Mechane isn't an issue, and locating the gate isn't an issue, travel to Kraagor's gate shouldn't take too long. That puts the Order in the same place as Team Evil relatively soon in the final book...but then what? Would the two teams have several inconclusive fights before the final confrontation? Would the bugbear settlement pose an issue? Is the next book going to be one MASSIVE, prolonged fight? I feel like that's unlikely, so it will be interesting to see how the book is broken up into "chapters," as it were.

My current theory is that something's going to happen with Kraagor's gate, and all the rules will change, and the Order might have to do something completely different than their original quest.


Redcloak and The Plan:
Rich has spent some serious time setting up Redcloak's arc. He's grown as a character, not only in the Azure City/Gobbotopia arc, but even more acutely in Start of Darkness. Redcloak is planning to betray Xykon and give control of Kraagor's Gate to The Dark One, and I fully believe that plot arc is going to have some sort of resolution, even if it's not the kind we expect.

But I'm having trouble reconciling Redcloak's story with the fact that NONE of the Order knows the first thing about him. Heck, O-Chul and even Miko both had much more direct interaction with him as a character; the Order just knows him as a dangerous goblin priest who's a sidekick to Xykon. And even O-Chul doesn't know about Redcloak's kind-of-justified slightly-less-evil scheme. I'm having trouble picturing how (or if!) The Order are going to learn more about Redcloak before we reach the climax of the story.

And I feel like they'll need to. Redcloak's cause is a worthy one. Goblinoids kind of got the raw end of the deal in this world, and I feel for that unfairness. Hopefully there'll be a resolution to that story that allows the Good Guys to keep being the Good Guys, but maybe throws a bone to the creatures that were literally created to be killed for XP. I'm just having trouble figuring out what form this would all take.

What do you folks think?

[Jannoire]

As the Dark One gets control over the last rift, all the gods decide to end world 2.0 right then.
In world 3.0 the goblins are of equal standing to elves, humans and whatnot...

Problem is, there will be need for some creatures to kill them for XP and thus the cycle starts anew...

[RatElemental]

Clearly the Giant is building to an anti-climax to put Brian Clevinger to shame. This book will end with the Mitd accidentally destroying the final gate and the snarl escaping. The next and final book will be approximately 20 pages of the snarl unmaking all of reality and the gods along with it, ushering existence into a state of formless chaos for all eternity.

[BeerMug Paladin]

The new quest will be completely different from the original quest?

Oh! I know, Xykon is quickly killed and Redcloak must recruit a new wizard for The Plan. He recruits Grand Alf the Disco Wizard and he changes The Plan with his superior spell knowledge.

Dance off! Winner gets the gate!

[Morty]

I agree that some confrontation between the Order and Redcloak, and the Order realizing his motivations, are inevitable. They're now acutely aware he's far more powerful than they'd given him credit for, since he almost killed them after being more or less helpless in the illusion. But they still don't know anything beyond that. And relations between Redcloak and Xykon are becoming increasingly strained.

I kind of wonder if we're going to see Xykon's astral fortress. He thinks he'll regenerate there if he's destroyed, but he'll actually end up in Redcloak's holy symbol.

[Delta]

Okay if this is the thread for wild speculation:

After Xykon is destroyed in the battle for the last gate, both Redcloak and the OotS find out the Truth about the gates, rifts, the Snarl and all that. They realize something very different is going on than what they had been led to believe up until this point, maybe it turns out Redcloaks ritual is actually needed to save the world somehow in the end, but the people casting it have to sacrifice themselves doing so, and the only arcane spellcaster in the area powerful enough to pull it off is V.

I just feel like the "heroic sacrifice" is the most fitting ending for both V and Redcloak, both have done things that are basically irredeemable in the pursuit of noble goals.

[KorvinStarmast]

Dance off! Winner gets the gate!

What gate?

I just feel like the "heroic sacrifice" is the most fitting ending for both V and Redcloak, both have done things that are basically irredeemable in the pursuit of noble goals.

Redemption is a special thing; unlike Miko, V has recognized that she/he did something wrong and seeks a way to make restitution. The process may be really difficult, but the sincere faith effort is going to be made based on the conversations with Roy after the battle in the desert.
Redcloak had a similar moment of clarity during the battle for Azure City: wait a sec, what am I doing? I need to behave differently. They both are in the running for a redemption arc, though "easy side quest" will not be how that works out if it does. (The little blurb about redemption that Soon's ghost gives to Miko does a nice job of expressing how Rich sees redemption in these stories.).

That said, I like your idea: V and Redcloak have to perform the ritual together. Not sure if that's what Rich will run with, but it's a neat idea for a twist in the story.

[Delta]

That said, I like your idea: V and Redcloak have to perform the ritual together. Not sure if that's what Rich will run with, but it's a neat idea for a twist in the story.

I thought of the same thing, but concerning V, Roy has already summed it up pretty well I think: What V has done is pretty much unforgivable. Yes, V can start on the path to redemption, but even if he ends up saving the world, it would be tough considering him "redeemed" for what he has done. I really think the heroic sacrifice may well be the only way out for him, in the end (which of course might exactly be the reason for Rich not to go this way because he likes to play with expectations like that, obviously)

And it would just fit as a conclusion to V's storyline perfectly, in my opinion. He accepts responsibility for his actions, he also has to accept that arcane magic alone is not enough to save the world, while at the same time finally getting to use his massive arcane powers to save the day in an unquestionably Good fashion.

[Synesthesy]

The fact is that Redcloak goal is right. I think that it will happen in the end of the book. You can argue that Reddie way to do his goal is evil (and I think it is), but his goal is not. This is why I believe that, in the end, there will be peace between Azurites and Gobbotopia, and between humans races and xpfodder races.

The last book seems shorter because it seems (nowaday) it will be located only in one place: the last gate. But we must remember how many character, how many sides to use IFCC's words, will join the race. Other then Team Evil and the Order, I fully expect IFCC, Vector Legion and Hel to do something. Hel may want to destroy the last gate as a last backup plan, as if every gate is destroied she'll win and the conclusion of the actual book and the fate of Durkula won't matter at all. The fact that I can't image Durkon going away to save the world instead of staying home caring for his new family is the reason I expect Durkula to reach the last gate, instead of being destroyed and resurrected right now in the end of the book. Unless they take Hilgya to the pole too.
IFCC goal is not clear, but they surely will do something big. Vector Legion goals is something I don't know, but I fully expect Tarquin's story to end in the last book, and this one may well end in an anti climatic way, as it's the thing Tarquin fears most.

As for Team Evil, I expect Redcloak and MitD treason before the end. I expect both Reddie and Xykon to die, but I'd like the idea that both V and Redcloak will sacrifice themselves to save the world (and give Goblinoids a better world to live in). V has no other way to redeem herself, her sin is too big.

Oh, and don't forget good characters like O-Chul. I bet O-Chul will do something lawfull badass with MitD.

And last but not least, Belkar won't die.

[Jasdoif]

And I feel like they'll need to. Redcloak's cause is a worthy one. Goblinoids kind of got the raw end of the deal in this world, and I feel for that unfairness.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

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Redcloak's cause is to not feel quite so bad about murdering his little brother, even if murdering every goblinoid on the planet is what that takes. Worthy, it's not.

[PopeLinus1]

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

Redcloak's cause is to not feel quite so bad about murdering his little brother, even if murdering every goblinoid on the planet is what that takes. Worthy, it's not.

Not Really. Ok yes that's part of it, but he genuinely wants too help the goblin people, and that's always been his goal.

[Kish]

I agree with Jasdoif.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

His "help" got every goblin who he claimed to be protecting when he murdered his brother killed. At best, he cares about an abstract principle of The Goblin People--not about goblins.

It's also worth noting that even if Redcloak, not his brother, is right about the Dark One, which already strikes me as really unlikely, Redcloak said that no humanoid race will get the shaft if the Dark One gets to influence the next world's creation, implying that he's fine with nonhumanoid monsters being XP fodder for the new goblin adventurers.

[hroþila]

The righteousness of the goblinoid cause in abstract is quite independent from Redcloak's personal righteousness in defending that cause.

[Jasdoif]

Ok yes that's part of it, but he genuinely wants too help the goblin people....

...up until their lives are inconvenient for him, anyway.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

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Even decades before murdering Right-Eye, Redcloak was like "I know the Plan could kill every goblin in the world and destroy their souls. So?"

I'm sure he'd prefer not to be responsible for murdering every goblin on the face of the planet, but that hasn't stopped him from pursuing it.

The righteousness of the goblinoid cause in abstract is quite independent from Redcloak's personal righteousness in defending that cause.

Or to put it another way: there's a good cause there for the goblin people, but that isn't the cause Redcloak's actually championing.

---

More on topic...the whole story direction is really muddied because so much hinges on the Gates and the Snarl, and our information on the Snarl is conflicting at best. We have an intact planet in the supposedly planet-destroying Snarl, an unexpectedly quiescent Snarl, and a suddenly active Snarl.

The Snarl getting loose (or being freed), and then not doing what anyone's expected, would be an excellent way to show that not everyone really knows what they're after; and without knowing the nature of what's revealed, it's nigh-impossible to guess how (or if, I suppose) the narrative would shift.


As for a (re)conciliation between the Azurites and the Gobbotopians...I believe that if that's really to happen, the Azurites and the Gobbotopians would need to do that themselves, of their own volition. It'd be little more than a hollow, temporary gesture if anyone forced either side into it. Hinjo and Jirix might be willing to give it a shot...hard to say (and certainly hard to pull off).

[Kish]

I think...there is a fair chance that the comic will end with Gobbotopia occupying its current position, a Lawful Evil society, neither reformed as some posters want, nor swept away as some others do. The comic is about the Order of the Stick, which is being led to fight Xykon and Redcloak, not, however Redcloak wishes to frame fighting against him, "the goblin people."

Xykon will be either destroyed, or bound eternally somewhere very boring. The world will remain. Redcloak may live, will probably die, and will definitely not be vindicated. Gin-Jun will not be posthumously vindicated in his treatment of goblins as humanoid virii. That's all I'm certain of about the ending (and already includes five statements I know some people here disagree with).

[Lacuna Caster]

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

...Redcloak said that no humanoid race will get the shaft if the Dark One gets to influence the next world's creation, implying that he's fine with nonhumanoid monsters being XP fodder for the new goblin adventurers.

There's no particular evidence for this, not does his ostensible 'golden age of goblin art and science' make any reference to adventuring parties.


While I think that Redcloak's indiscriminate slaughter and enslavement of azurites who had nothing in particular to do with the crusades against his people has long ago pushed him across the threshold of becoming what he hates, I also don't think it's fair to say he has no real attachment to the goblin people. If the Plan were all that mattered to him, he needn't have bothered spending months building up a functioning city-state atop the ruins of his conquest, but just have pressed on to either Girard's or Kraagor's gate as soon as he and Xykon were personally recuperated. Gobbotopia is clearly intended as a 'Plan B' for goblin welfare in the event Team Evil are obliterated.

[RatElemental]

And it would just fit as a conclusion to V's storyline perfectly, in my opinion. He accepts responsibility for his actions, he also has to accept that arcane magic alone is not enough to save the world, while at the same time finally getting to use his massive arcane powers to save the day in an unquestionably Good fashion.

Honestly, a heroic sacrifice for what V has done feels like more of a cop out to me than a satisfying conclusion. One life, for how many? Near genocide? How on earth is that a fair trade? And the afterlife not only exists but V knows it exists.

The only heroic sacrifices that would have a shot at making up for what V has done would be either complete annihilation, or a long, long, looooooooong elven life devoted to righting their wrongs in whatever way they can.



And personally, I'm with Roy on this one. Saving the world is a good start.

[Delta]

Honestly, a heroic sacrifice for what V has done feels like more of a cop out to me than a satisfying conclusion. One life, for how many? Near genocide? How on earth is that a fair trade?

It's a "fair trade" in the way that there's literally nothing more you can ask of V, in a dramatic sense. "I had the chance to save everyone in the world at the cost of my own life, and I chose to die to save everyone", if V can say that at the gates to the afterlife, and they tell him "That's not enough considering what you did before", then it's by definition impossible for V to redeem themself.

Yes, of course it's a cop out. The heroic sacrifice at the end of a redemption story has always been a convenient cop out to get out of answering the question whether the good someone did outweighs the bad or not, but there's a reason for why it's still being used, it works.

I'm not saying it's the only way the story could end, but it seems to be a very plausible way that would really fit V as well as Redcloak.

[RatElemental]

It's a "fair trade" in the way that there's literally nothing more you can ask of V, in a dramatic sense. "I had the chance to save everyone in the world at the cost of my own life, and I chose to die to save everyone", if V can say that at the gates to the afterlife, and they tell him "That's not enough considering what you did before", then it's by definition impossible for V to redeem themself.

Yes, of course it's a cop out. The heroic sacrifice at the end of a redemption story has always been a convenient cop out to get out of answering the question whether the good someone did outweighs the bad or not, but there's a reason for why it's still being used, it works.

I'm not saying it's the only way the story could end, but it seems to be a very plausible way that would really fit V as well as Redcloak.

Regardless, I'll still be pulling for the other way redemption arcs tend to be resolved, or something like it.

[Kish]

It's a "fair trade" in the way that there's literally nothing more you can ask of V, in a dramatic sense. "I had the chance to save everyone in the world at the cost of my own life, and I chose to die to save everyone", if V can say that at the gates to the afterlife, and they tell him "That's not enough considering what you did before", then it's by definition impossible for V to redeem themself.

Plainly untrue. Most straightforwardly, Vaarsuvius could choose to save everyone in the world at the cost of their own life, be saved by something they couldn't have predicted, then choose to save everyone in the world at the cost of their own life again; that could be something that would give them a non-Lower Plane afterlife ticket when sacrificing themself to save the world once wouldn't have. This is the kind of X that can always be made bigger by adding another X to it.

It could also be made bigger by substituting "live and be tortured for eternity" or "be undone by the Snarl" for simple death. There are a lot of bigger sacrifices a character can make than "die right now, in the belief that dying right now is the best imaginable case that I should get into a good afterlife." I also don't agree with the implication that sacrificing yourself for more people is somehow more of a sacrifice than sacrificing yourself for fewer people; I would consider the case that Vaarsuvius had redemption much stronger if they threw themself in the path of a Disintegrate which was aimed at a single, stranger-to-Vaarsuvius, black dragon.

I'm also puzzled by the very basics of this scenario. So if Vaarsuvius chooses not to sacrifice themself, everyone else dies, but Vaarsuvius is (somehow) just fine? Because if the choices are "I die and everyone else lives" or "everyone dies, including me," that's not actually a sacrifice.

I also think it's real unlikely that Rich is going to do, "Actually, the entirety of the Order's efforts to stop Xykon and Redcloak, dating way back to the Dungeon of Dorukan, have had the effect of thwarting Redcloak's unwitting efforts to sacrifice himself and the monstrous Xykon to save the world. The absolute most the Order can accomplish in this entire seven-book story is to undo a small part of the damage they did in the first book"--particularly, but not limited to, in the service of setting up a heroic sacrifice for Vaarsuvius.

[BeerMug Paladin]

We do know the IFCC's agenda. They want conflict. Pointless, destructive conflict. I see no reason not to take them at their word on that.

Redcloak succeed on the plan? Nah, he's already got something that wouldn't risk innocent lives he could work with on Gobbotopia. Granted, it's not the absolute victory of The Plan, but if your goal isn't complete unless you get absolute victory, then you're probably not a good guy and it wouldn't be good for you to win.

V's best shot at redemption seems to be to survive and live a long life of atonement.

[Sir_Norbert]

Xykon will be either destroyed, or bound eternally somewhere very boring. The world will remain. Redcloak may live, will probably die, and will definitely not be vindicated. Gin-Jun will not be posthumously vindicated in his treatment of goblins as humanoid virii. That's all I'm certain of about the ending (and already includes five statements I know some people here disagree with).

But what is a virius?

[Euclidodese]

I think Rich has already set up the justified happy ending for the goblinoids.

Redcloak's plan will fail, he will die, be killed by the goodies (Order, O'Chull, face-turned MITD, all of the above) but his people will be fine, as a result of a side-effect of his plan, which in his arrogance he didn't realise was the real victory.

Haley might have desires to go to Gobbotopia and murder her way through the hordes of bakers and washerfolk there until the Azurites can move back, but if she goes there, she'll find a fledgling republic, trying to make the most of things and participating as a member of the community of nations, and (hopefully) realise that's not something she should be fighting against.

Sure, the Azurites won't get to walk down the same streets that their grandparents did, but they've got a new home. Them destroying the nation of Gobbotopia in order to build a new Azure City on it's ashes would only have sentimental purpose, in a practical sense, it would acheive nothing. They wouldn't get back anything they've lost, they'd just be rebuilding their nation in one place, rather than rebuilding it in another place.

Sure, the goblins didn't have a right to overthrow the Azurites (although they did have legitimate grievances against them) but they didn't choose to do that, it was Redcloak's choice. The past can't be changed, plenty of real world nations have horrendous histories, but beautiful presents and hope-filled futures (eg. Britain, Japan, Germany, Belgium, Italy, The USA, China, France) add Gobbotopia to the list.

[Ionathus]

The righteousness of the goblinoid cause in abstract is quite independent from Redcloak's personal righteousness in defending that cause.

Regardless, I'll still be pulling for the other way redemption arcs tend to be resolved, or something like it.

That's what I'm getting at, about the Goblinoids. Granted, I maybe like Redcloak as a character more than others here. Probably a little too much. I find him tragic, and compelling. I also want to see the Evil things he has done come back to resolve in his personal arc somehow -- for me, his death is more important than Xykon's, in that it needs to hit a couple of points that Xykon's doesn't really require. Xykon is the Big Bad and has shown no character growth, so he is merely a mechanical threat. Redcloak commands plot resources for me -- I'm invested. But this is all just my personal stuff. I feel more strongly about the goblinoid cause.

Sure, Gobbotopia would be a partial victory, but the brutality of that first genocide scene in SoD turns my stomach, and makes me hope there will be a more concrete event within the last book. Something that indicates Things Will Be Different for non-PC-humanoids from now on. I feel like Rich has been doing some work to break down the regular "Kobolds/Goblins/Orcs are pure evil" tropes already, and the Order (especially V) might be in a more enlightened headspace by the finale to see some of that.

As for V...personally, I also don't want to see them make an "easy" heroic sacrifice of their life. I've seen it suggested elsewhere that there's a way V could affect the final battle that would permanently rob them of their arcane spellcasting (the Disjunction spell cast on the Crimson Mantle, I think?), and out of all the options, permanent and voluntary loss of spellcasting would A) be a large blow to V's original self-image but a good way to show character growth, B) an effective way of neutralizing them as a "threat," i.e. "you can never hurt others the way you hurt black dragons" and C) be a beginning to the path of atonement, and V could live out their life helping and teaching others and trying to steer the world in the right direction.

ETA:

We do know the IFCC's agenda. They want conflict. Pointless, destructive conflict. I see no reason not to take them at their word on that.

I still don't think we've seen the extent of the IFCC's machinations. They may know more about the world in the rift than anyone else -- that's just a guess -- but they seem like they're plotting something bigger and, more importantly, different than everyone else. Xykon, Redcloak, Tarquin, Elan, even the Order: they are/were all trying to control the Gates or prevent someone else from controlling them. I see the IFCC as more similar to Hel: wanting to use the situation to their advantage for an entirely different goal.

And, finally, this may not be a widely accepted belief, but I truly think we've seen the last of Tarquin. I don't think he'll be relevant to the final book at all.

[Jannoire]

And, finally, this may not be a widely accepted belief, but I truly think we've seen the last of Tarquin. I don't think he'll be relevant to the final book at all.

Of course that's the last we've seen of Tarquin for The Order Of The Stick... We all need to wait for Order of The Stick 2: Order Stickier...

[Ionathus]

Of course that's the last we've seen of Tarquin for The Order Of The Stick... We all need to wait for Order of The Stick 2: Order Stickier...

...The Musical.

[Jasdoif]

We do know the IFCC's agenda. They want conflict. Pointless, destructive conflict. I see no reason not to take them at their word on that.

They want destructive unnecessary conflict...for Xykon and the Order of the Stick. And they say such conflict is what's been holding back the fiendish races, who they're trying to unite.

So pointless, destructive conflict for themselves is pretty much the opposite of their agenda.

[Ionathus]

They want destructive unnecessary conflict...for Xykon and the Order of the Stick. And they say such conflict is what's been holding back the fiendish races, who they're trying to unite.

So pointless, destructive conflict for themselves is pretty much the opposite of their agenda.

And another that your link to #668 reminded me of: they explicitly say "our plan for the gates" and then connect it to slaughter. I don't feel like they're planning an unmaking of reality via Snarl (surely, this would cut into their bottom line of souls, not to mention their own continued existence).

So it's interesting to speculate about their actions, but tough to make much of them -- they've given away so little of their motivations and methods that it's hard to triangulate their goals. I'm quite certain they'll rear their heads in the next book more prominently. Not sure if they'll do anything before then, though.

[zimmerwald1915]

And personally, I'm with Roy on this one. Saving the world is a good start.

Anything else is beyond the scope of this story. There is no way in the infinite layers of the Abyss that there will be an epilogue actually following Vaarsuvius through her "long elven life of atonement," and a good chance there will be no epilogue at all. We don't see it, it might as well never happen. Ergo, there is no actual story left for Vaarusivus. She is a prop in the hands of other characters, and of the plot, for the remainder of the others' story.

This is as it should be. Giving up your own moral agency to someone more trustworthy than yourself is both a fitting start and a fitting end to someone like Vaarsuvius.

[Fyraltari]

Anything else is beyond the scope of this story. There is no way in the infinite layers of the Abyss that there will be an epilogue actually following Vaarsuvius through her "long elven life of atonement

Wordless montages are a thing.