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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Post Risen Martyr Connotations? (DnD 3.5e)

    As a new 3.5e player, and relatively new RPing gamer in general, creating a character that I'm happy with regarding both RP and practicality has been a little confusing and difficult.

    My current hurdle is about the rules of the Risen Martyr, and whether it is a good or bad idea to potentially convene with the DM to arrange a Paladin(+/-)10 / Risen Martyr 10 character. My idea for a holy warrior promoting all that is good is kind of coming together, after I managed to be gifted a Pegasus from its father as a companion/mount at level 2 via a series of critical rolls, and already being seen as a minor legend in the monastery and community. But anyway, my questions are:

    1. What does being Deathless really mean? Do I gain all modifiers of a deathless (immunities, buffs, ability to not breath eat or sleep, and the huge risk of being insta-gibbed by Evil Clerics)?

    2. What does it mean to be a Celestial (Archon). This is basically my first question, do I gain all the buffs and weaknesses described in the monster's manual?

    3. Is the 'level 11' final ascension a non negotiable death? Meaning that being a Risen Martyr isn't necessarily a second chance, but more just running on borrowed time, with an identified end date. Or is there a way to continue my adventure as an Archon from the Upper planes, transported to the over world still assisting the party in their adventures?

    3.1. If I complete my holy quest, am I also ascended?

    4. Also, how on earth do I learn Celestial as a language?

    Edit - 5. What does it mean to not have a Constitution score?

    Fin.
    Last edited by Berymm; 2018-06-16 at 05:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Risen Martyr Connotations? (DnD 3.5e)

    1. Yes, you gain all of the things listed in the Traits section of the Deathless monster entry in Book of Exalted Deeds. You also re-roll all of your hit dice as d12s, not taking your (now non-existent) Con score into account for the total. (The bit about will saves and Base Attack Bonus is only for creatures that are Deathless from the start and advance by racial hit dice. You're going to be advancing by character class, so it doesn't apply). You are at risk from instant death from Evil Clerics.

    2. The Perfection feature only matters for spells being cast by you or on you. You can cast spells with the Archon component (such as Axiomatic Creature or Crown of Brilliance), assuming you're high enough level to cast them otherwise. If there's a spell or effect that does extra damage or grants extra benefits to Archons, you count as an Archon for it. It doesn't actually change your Type or Subtype.

    3. The usual interpretation is that the character becomes an NPC at that point, but there's nothing stopping a DM from having him continue his work from the Upper Planes.

    3.1 If you happen to finish your quest before reaching "level 11," you don't immediately ascend. If you're still adventuring, you still have to take levels in Risen Martyr until you reach your Final Ascension. The sort of character who would become a Risen Martyr would probably keep looking for new quests and opportunities to do good, so retirement is probably not going to be an option.

    4. Mechanically? You put two skill points into "Speak Language (Celestial)" when you level up (one point if you're a Bard or something else that has Speak Language as a class skill). Story-wise, that's up to you and the DM to determine. It's a fairly widely-known language, with lots of Clerics who know it.
    Last edited by Telonius; 2018-06-16 at 10:11 AM.

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    Default Re: Risen Martyr Connotations? (DnD 3.5e)

    4. in addition, if your race has celestial as a bonus language and you've got an int bonus of at least 1, you may take it at chargen. Humans have all languages as bonuses languages.
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    Default Re: Risen Martyr Connotations? (DnD 3.5e)

    I've always wondered about the Level 0 aspect of this PrC. Is gaining the Deathless type really enough to justify an entire level?

    And if not, would it be reasonable to skip Level 0, and jump directly into Level 1 of the Risen Martyr?

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    Default Re: Risen Martyr Connotations? (DnD 3.5e)

    Uh. The level 0 aspect means your character just gained a huge power boost, because level 0 of Risen Martyr just raised them from the dead. Deathless is a big step up from dead, so being level 0 is kind of just reserving your future advancement without piling on rewards for having died.

    Granted, if the events that martyred your character were epic enough, perhaps you got enough exp to get to level one anyway.
    Last edited by Talanic; 2018-06-17 at 12:42 AM.

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    Default Re: Risen Martyr Connotations? (DnD 3.5e)

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I've always wondered about the Level 0 aspect of this PrC. Is gaining the Deathless type really enough to justify an entire level?

    And if not, would it be reasonable to skip Level 0, and jump directly into Level 1 of the Risen Martyr?
    No, absolutely not.

    Yes, it would. Just roll "spiritual body" into level 1 and start from there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talanic View Post
    Uh. The level 0 aspect means your character just gained a huge power boost, because level 0 of Risen Martyr just raised them from the dead. Deathless is a big step up from dead, so being level 0 is kind of just reserving your future advancement without piling on rewards for having died.

    Granted, if the events that martyred your character were epic enough, perhaps you got enough exp to get to level one anyway.
    lol no. it's just like being undead. it makes you immune to certain things, but it makes you a lot glassier. plus you're stuck with 11 levels of risen martyrs, plus having to qualify for risen martyr.
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    Default Re: Risen Martyr Connotations? (DnD 3.5e)

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    lol no. it's just like being undead. it makes you immune to certain things, but it makes you a lot glassier. plus you're stuck with 11 levels of risen martyrs, plus having to qualify for risen martyr.
    But before that, you were DEAD. And nobody could or would raise you. A player with the dead template is far less powerful than a player who just gained Spiritual Body for free because level 0 is just a placeholder. It isn't a real level.
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    Default Re: Risen Martyr Connotations? (DnD 3.5e)

    Quote Originally Posted by Talanic View Post
    But before that, you were DEAD. And nobody could or would raise you. A player with the dead template is far less powerful than a player who just gained Spiritual Body for free because level 0 is just a placeholder. It isn't a real level.
    Well, if that's your metric, then a level in shining blade of heironious is a substantial power boost over being dead. Dying and getting rezd is a normal part of dnd.

    Level 0 isn't a placeholder. Look at the chart. It's got ba and saves. You have to take the level like a normal level. It's not a virtual level.
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    Default Re: Risen Martyr Connotations? (DnD 3.5e)

    Getting raised is normal. But explicitly, this character is not getting brought back. That's really the one bit that makes this otherwise mediocre class special.

    Dragged out my BOED for this. Character must have suffered martyrdom and not have been returned to life. "As a special feature of this prestige class, the character rises with the abilities of a 0-level Risen Martyr added to the character's previous abilities. When the character earns enough experience points to advance another level, he must become a 1-st level risen martyr."

    In other words, the first level you take is level 1. You gain the abilities (Spiritual Body and +2 Will save) at level 0 for 'free' when you rise, but it's not a level. You don't gain hit dice or the .5 BAB; it's only a placeholder that locks you in to ten levels of Risen Martyr. Otherwise, it would be level 1 of Risen Martyr; why would they write it as level 0 if this is not what they wanted to indicate?

    So yeah. Considering that the character was not getting raised by any other means, level 0 of Risen Martyr is a big jump in power - but only because it's compared with being dead.
    Last edited by Talanic; 2018-06-17 at 01:55 PM.
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    Default Re: Risen Martyr Connotations? (DnD 3.5e)

    Quote Originally Posted by Talanic View Post
    Getting raised is normal. But explicitly, this character is not getting brought back. That's really the one bit that makes this otherwise mediocre class special.

    Dragged out my BOED for this. Character must have suffered martyrdom and not have been returned to life. "As a special feature of this prestige class, the character rises with the abilities of a 0-level Risen Martyr added to the character's previous abilities. When the character earns enough experience points to advance another level, he must become a 1-st level risen martyr."

    In other words, the first level you take is level 1. You gain the abilities (Spiritual Body and +2 Will save) at level 0 for 'free' when you rise, but it's not a level. You don't gain hit dice or the .5 BAB; it's only a placeholder that locks you in to ten levels of Risen Martyr. Otherwise, it would be level 1 of Risen Martyr; why would they write it as level 0 if this is not what they wanted to indicate?

    So yeah. Considering that the character was not getting raised by any other means, level 0 of Risen Martyr is a big jump in power - but only because it's compared with being dead.
    If risen martyr were a template you got applied for killing yourself in the name of your god, you'd be right.

    But it's not. You need to plan things out far in advance, take garbage feats, make sure your skills, saves, etc, are up to snuff for risen martyr. You gotta get into this on purpose. It's not just something that happens to you.

    While you may not get HD, you get a boost to your ba/saves like a normal level.

    What I'm saying is compared to being dead, anything is a power boost. That's a weird thing to compare it to, especialyl given how trivial being rez'd in dnd is.
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  11. - Top - End - #11
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    Default Re: Risen Martyr Connotations? (DnD 3.5e)

    3. Is the 'level 11' final ascension a non negotiable death? Meaning that being a Risen Martyr isn't necessarily a second chance, but more just running on borrowed time, with an identified end date. Or is there a way to continue my adventure as an Archon from the Upper planes, transported to the over world still assisting the party in their adventures?
    It is easy to never gain level 11.
    Just take an item creation feat and you are allowed to never use your xp for gaining the last levels for "storing it for making a magical item one day"
    So if you want to then you can stay a risen martyr forever.

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    Default Re: Risen Martyr Connotations? (DnD 3.5e)

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    If risen martyr were a template you got applied for killing yourself in the name of your god, you'd be right.

    But it's not. You need to plan things out far in advance, take garbage feats, make sure your skills, saves, etc, are up to snuff for risen martyr. You gotta get into this on purpose. It's not just something that happens to you.

    While you may not get HD, you get a boost to your ba/saves like a normal level.

    What I'm saying is compared to being dead, anything is a power boost. That's a weird thing to compare it to, especialyl given how trivial being rez'd in dnd is.

    I don't disagree that its prerequisites are odd and/or mediocre. Shooting for Risen Martyr is a weird idea, but in a campaign that was already running BoED, it could well happen without the player planning. Or perhaps a player might hedge his bets and confer with the DM about having a backup plan in case of TPK.

    You don't get BA (first BA gain is at level 2, following .5 BA progression from there) and the book doesn't even say that you gain level 0, only that the abilities of level 0 are added to you. I still maintain that it is not a level, they just didn't write clearly when writing the book. You and I might never agree on that. I was hoping they had an example Martyr to look at, but no such luck...

    And again, given that its primary function is "dead guy not dead for a bit", there's very little else to compare it TO. It's for when all other resurrection is off the table but you still have things this character was striving to accomplish. When the party cleric dies and the party's in the home stretch against the BBEG, with no chance to backtrack and pick someone else up, nobody else who can resurrect, and no hope of victory without him. The quest is failed, the world is doomed, but the gods sent him back specifically for this task. It's not a normal class, for you to consider getting deliberately; it even has a "You messed about too long when trying to accomplish your goal, now get back to the afterlife" failsafe built in. It's a weird class, for weird circumstances, but not entirely without conceivable use.
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    Default Re: Risen Martyr Connotations? (DnD 3.5e)

    Originally Posted by Talanic
    But before that, you were DEAD. And nobody could or would raise you.

    ….explicitly, this character is not getting brought back.
    I’m not sure where you’re getting this from.

    BoED covers martyrdom in Chapter 2, and it discusses the options for characters returning from the dead on p. 28. It seems very clear that the Risen Martyr is intended as another alternative to raise dead or resurrection, as one option among several.

    In particular, it seems intended for those situations when a player would like their character to keep going, but raising isn’t feasible for one reason or another. There’s nothing in the text that says the character can't be brought back by other means—only that the Risen Martyr is an option if other approaches aren’t available.

    Originally Posted by Talanic
    …level 0 of Risen Martyr is a big jump in power - but only because it's compared with being dead.
    And if that’s the only reason, it seems to me like it’s not that big a jump overall.

    Originally Posted by Venger
    …compared to being dead, anything is a power boost. That's a weird thing to compare it to….
    Have to agree with this.

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    Default Re: Risen Martyr Connotations? (DnD 3.5e)

    You're right. It can be applied when other options exist - I was trying to emphasize that it's for when those options are unlikely or impossible. It's for narrative emergencies.

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    Default Re: Risen Martyr Connotations? (DnD 3.5e)

    Quote Originally Posted by Talanic View Post
    I don't disagree that its prerequisites are odd and/or mediocre. Shooting for Risen Martyr is a weird idea, but in a campaign that was already running BoED, it could well happen without the player planning. Or perhaps a player might hedge his bets and confer with the DM about having a backup plan in case of TPK.

    You don't get BA (first BA gain is at level 2, following .5 BA progression from there) and the book doesn't even say that you gain level 0, only that the abilities of level 0 are added to you. I still maintain that it is not a level, they just didn't write clearly when writing the book. You and I might never agree on that. I was hoping they had an example Martyr to look at, but no such luck...

    And again, given that its primary function is "dead guy not dead for a bit", there's very little else to compare it TO. It's for when all other resurrection is off the table but you still have things this character was striving to accomplish. When the party cleric dies and the party's in the home stretch against the BBEG, with no chance to backtrack and pick someone else up, nobody else who can resurrect, and no hope of victory without him. The quest is failed, the world is doomed, but the gods sent him back specifically for this task. It's not a normal class, for you to consider getting deliberately; it even has a "You messed about too long when trying to accomplish your goal, now get back to the afterlife" failsafe built in. It's a weird class, for weird circumstances, but not entirely without conceivable use.
    If you look at the chart, you will see you gain ba at level 0. It's just a ba of +0, like a wizard or rogue. What is this .5 ba you're talking about? Fractional ba is a varian rule.

    this is just an 11 level class that is written as 0-10 and not 1-11. You gain a boost to ba and saves but no hd with level 0, so it's more like an la 0 template, but it is a level of the class.

    My point is the taxes to enter this class are so worthless that no one could conceivably take them by accident. Like all prcs, you must plan to qualify for it when you design your character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talanic View Post
    You're right. It can be applied when other options exist - I was trying to emphasize that it's for when those options are unlikely or impossible. It's for narrative emergencies.
    If you want to just rez your pcs with fiat, you are allowed to do that. You don't need to shackle them to an unskippable 11 level class that doesn't do anything like risen martyr.

    If a gm has banned resurrection in the game and the choices are "remain dead" and "replace the next 11 levels of your projected build with risen martyr" players are probably going to elect to enter play with a new pc.
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    Default Re: Risen Martyr Connotations? (DnD 3.5e)

    Fractional BA is a variant, but it makes so much sense that I didn't realize that it was.

    Regardless, you and I see this class very differently. You're zooming in on the ten levels of suck. I'm focused more on the quest aspect - the Risen Martyr is sent back for a reason and only stays until they complete their quest, or until level 11, whichever happens first.

    Honestly, I would say it can fulfill my expectations - the rogue sent back to break his friends out of captivity, the Paladin who heals his companions, bolsters their faith, and sees them back to civilization before finding another bearer for his Holy Avenger. Either one should fade away after accomplishing that goal. It's not the worst possible exchange for a feat and a couple skill points, though it's far from optimal. Heck, I could see a player aiming for this as a means of retiring a character they were looking to move on from.

    Looking at it more critically, I think that it probably should have been written as a three level class with great power (and yes, it should have closed a few more loopholes for losing experience), rather than a ten level class of meh.
    Last edited by Talanic; 2018-06-17 at 09:23 PM.
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    Default Re: Risen Martyr Connotations? (DnD 3.5e)

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    My point is the taxes to enter this class are so worthless that no one could conceivably take them by accident. Like all prcs, you must plan to qualify for it when you design your character.
    Now hold on. One specific exalted feat, one unspecified exalted feat, a language, 9 ranks in any skill, and +2 in all saves; this is too specific and trash to land on by accident? Not buyin' it. If you're shooting for -any- kind of exalted character then picking up nimbus of light and celestial as a language known are likely the only part of that you weren't necessarily planning already. Landing on this by accident is perfectly feasible.
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    Default Re: Risen Martyr Connotations? (DnD 3.5e)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Now hold on. One specific exalted feat, one unspecified exalted feat, a language, 9 ranks in any skill, and +2 in all saves; this is too specific and trash to land on by accident? Not buyin' it. If you're shooting for -any- kind of exalted character then picking up nimbus of light and celestial as a language known are likely the only part of that you weren't necessarily planning already. Landing on this by accident is perfectly feasible.
    1) no one has ever taken nimbus of light except to pay a tax, or unless they're vop and literally run out of feats

    2) if I saw my gm sharpening his knife to inflict risen martyr on someone, I'd make sure my character didn't meet the reqs
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