Abyss Hath No Fury

[Venger]

Nilbogs have been published in at least one 3rd party supplement for 3.5 and (the same one updated) for PF, and even if they weren't, it would be perfectly reasonable for a DM to port them in from 2e. "Not a real monster" is an extremely bizarre thing to say even if it were entirely out of the DM's own head, which it isn't. The party's facing them, they're (presumably) not illusory, they're exactly as real as owlbears.

The fact that you said "third party supplement" shows you know perfectly well what I was saying: they have not been published in any first-party book, web article, etc.

[Malimar]

The fact that you said "third party supplement" shows you know perfectly well what I was saying: they have not been published in any first-party book, web article, etc.

I suspect that you know perfectly well what I was saying: a DM is permitted to use any source they heckin' well please and it's all equally real.

[Psyren]

But... there is nothing in the original post to indicate that knowledge rolls weren't allowed. All we know that they know is that they look like goblins (which they do) and that they are CR 4 (which is meta information.) He never said anything about being denied skill checks.

Hence why I asked (see my first post in the thread). My remaining posts are speaking more generally, i.e. IF they weren't allowed or proposed.

I suspect that you know perfectly well what I was saying: a DM is permitted to use any source they heckin' well please and it's all equally real.

The problem is that third party tends to vary quite widely in terms of balance, quality, playtesting etc. Which is not to say that first-party doesn't - but it also tends to be pretty widespread, such that even if the designers let a turkey get through QA, the community will suss it out fairly quickly. 3PP monsters like this meanwhile have increased potential to make it to a table with an unrepresentative CR intact.

Consider that Nilbogs are CR4 - what is that number based on? For the wrong sort of party (i.e. one without cure spells) they are going to be nigh-impossible to kill. Is one really the same difficulty as a minotaur or a janni, both of whom can get taken down with regular-ass arrows, swords or damaging spells no problem?

[Malimar]

The problem is that third party tends to vary quite widely in terms of balance, quality, playtesting etc. Which is not to say that first-party doesn't - but it also tends to be pretty widespread, such that even if the designers let a turkey get through QA, the community will suss it out fairly quickly. 3PP monsters like this meanwhile have increased potential to make it to a table with an unrepresentative CR intact.

Consider that Nilbogs are CR4 - what is that number based on? For the wrong sort of party (i.e. one without cure spells) they are going to be nigh-impossible to kill. Is one really the same difficulty as a minotaur or a janni, both of whom can get taken down with regular-ass arrows, swords or damaging spells no problem?

Nilbogs are actually listed as CR1 -- either OP's DM is using nilbogs from a different source, or by "CR4" he meant "this group of 3 nilbogs is (E)CR4", or he's put class levels on his nilbogs, or he's taken into account the party's lack of healing and raised the nilbogs' CR accordingly.

Given that nilbogs have the offensive abilities of CR1/2 goblins (so many lvl 4 parties can pretty much ignore them in relative safety) and their defensive abilities are still susceptible to all sorts of tactics mentioned upthread, 4 is, if anything, too high.

[Calthropstu]

Gosh it's almost like real-world people are worse than 12th level characters, and skills are part-and-parcel with that inherently unrealistic aspect. Next you'll be telling me that Jump needs to be nerfed because a Human Monk 12 with full ranks in Jump/Tumble and no other spent resources can beat the all-time world record high-jump every time, or that it shouldn't be possible for an entirely non-magical person to be able to trick inanimate objects into thinking they're wizards through the power of imagination. A bit less facetiously, there was an article in the way back when of early 3e (I know, so long ago ) that made a decent argument for the mechanics indicating that most real people would be somewhere in the neighborhood of levels 1-3, with 6 at the absolute maximum, which is I think part of the idea behind Epic 6 as a game mode.

Additionally, I don't see why it's such a hard sell that people would be trying to learn this knowledge in-universe. In a world where the primary focus of one school of magic is forcing extra-dimensional creatures into the material world, you would think that the decades/centuries/possibly even millennia old wizarding academies would have books about these creatures, and the perils of making contact with other dimensions, and the possible strengths and weaknesses of creatures you might face if you get too big for your britches and accidentally summon something too powerful for you to control...heck, if this worked like some kinda wizarding college, there'd probably be a full-blown class focused on the planes and how magic interacts with them, and it'd probably be a required credit for somebody pursuing a Masters in Conjuring. In a world where there are dozens or even scores of deities that rule over particular domains, I would think that part of ones duties as a magic-capable priest would be knowing when you're stepping out of your deities domain and into that of another.

Now, all that being said, it's definitely a harder sell with some characters than others. The backwards bumpkin hermit hunter whose been living deep in the forest for 200 years isn't necessarily gonna be an expert on current geopolitical events, but could probably be expected to know a good deal about plants, animals, fey, and other creatures you might find while living in the forest for 200 years. It's believable that a pickpocket would be a savvy, streetwise fellow who understands the subtle rhythm of the city life, but it's less believable that they'd also happen to be an expert on magical theory. I absolutely agree that some characters have less of a default RP reason to invest in certain knowledge skills. And I'm pretty sure the designers do as well, because that's why a lot of classes don't have every knowledge skill as a class skill. At double price and with half the normal cap, skill points spent on cross-class skills are 25% as efficient as they could be, but if that's how you choose to invest your skill ranks, it can be interesting seeing the reasoning behind a barbarian being a history buff, or a thief having an encyclopedic knowledge of their religion's bible.

All of what you said here supports my epicenter idea. Knowledge nature(Lost Woods) would tell you all the common animals in the lost woods area, and if you encounter the same (or similar) animals elsewhere you could identify them. But if you come across a seal, how the hell are you supposed to know what it is? Lo and behold, you come across a book titled "creatures of the sea" containing information on sea creatures, allowing you to take a new epicenter of (Ocean, Antarctica)

I was using Demonology as an example, not calling niblogs demons. Knowledge local follows the same principles. With base local you can identify "Elf: tall lanky people with slanted ears." With knowledge local(Silvanesti) you can identify "The elves of Silvanesti have long been at odds with their Qualenesti cousins because (details) They are ruled by a central king figure and are known for making excellent wines, archery and pride themselves on their magic. Known shops contain (these goods) and their top trading goods are..."

I actually sometimes grant epicenters through gameplay as my players visit far and disgtant lands. Epicenters keep the wonder of discovery of knowledge. In fact, one of my characters who played a character who studied esoteric knowledge went on quests to discover new knowledge and increase his epicenters, writing books to help others who would come after him.
Epicenters make great plot hooks, avoids the "I know everything about everything because I have a few skill points" eliminating any and all mystery, and lets the esoteric knowledge actually BE esoteric.

Edit: And it appears I am derailing this thread and will not comment further. My homebrew is just that, homebrew. It seems to work ok for my groups.

[Belisarius666]

DID anyone roll to disbelieve?

[Eldariel]

Whenever you can't beat something or figure out how to beat something, you can just disengage. There's always a way to defeat something and if you don't have it available, you can always try to get out and go find it/acquire information. In this game things can do anything and not all is easy to be prepared for short of something like a spontaneous Wizard with a massive spellbook. What is your party composition? Aside from tying 'em up and leaving them there (winning doesn't require killing) or walking away (they're basically Goblin Warrior 1s) or diplomancying (they probably aren't very motivated to try and kill someone they have little chance of hurting), there may be other options available. Worst comes to worst, you can always go to town and hire a Cleric (Channel Energy would be incredibly efficient against them).

All of what you said here supports my epicenter idea. Knowledge nature(Lost Woods) would tell you all the common animals in the lost woods area, and if you encounter the same (or similar) animals elsewhere you could identify them. But if you come across a seal, how the hell are you supposed to know what it is? Lo and behold, you come across a book titled "creatures of the sea" containing information on sea creatures, allowing you to take a new epicenter of (Ocean, Antarctica)

I was using Demonology as an example, not calling niblogs demons. Knowledge local follows the same principles. With base local you can identify "Elf: tall lanky people with slanted ears." With knowledge local(Silvanesti) you can identify "The elves of Silvanesti have long been at odds with their Qualenesti cousins because (details) They are ruled by a central king figure and are known for making excellent wines, archery and pride themselves on their magic. Known shops contain (these goods) and their top trading goods are..."

I actually sometimes grant epicenters through gameplay as my players visit far and disgtant lands. Epicenters keep the wonder of discovery of knowledge. In fact, one of my characters who played a character who studied esoteric knowledge went on quests to discover new knowledge and increase his epicenters, writing books to help others who would come after him.
Epicenters make great plot hooks, avoids the "I know everything about everything because I have a few skill points" eliminating any and all mystery, and lets the esoteric knowledge actually BE esoteric.

Edit: And it appears I am derailing this thread and will not comment further. My homebrew is just that, homebrew. It seems to work ok for my groups.

Can you make a post about how your system works exactly in e.g. the Homebrew forum? I find Knowledge one of the major weak points of the current skill system (social skills being the other) and I'm interested in some rewrites that don't overburden the skill point pool while simultaneously improving character precision and design depth.