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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition Revised: Week 1 - Abilities

    May have some activity here and there, but it sure feels like I haven't been active on the forums in a while. But now I'm here and wanting to talk about one of my favorite RPG's, Mutants & Masterminds.

    For any who don't know, Mutants & Masterminds is a system that has its roots in the d20 system but has moved away from it as time went on; the main draw of the game is the point-buy character creation system that lets you buy skills, advantages, and power effects to create virtually any kind of character you want. Wizards, preternaturally skilled warriors, flying superheroes in capes, genius inventors, the list goes on and on. Further it manages to simplify all of this by making it so the d20 is the only die you will ever roll. It's a system that lets players be creative without being too hard to get into and I love it.

    But it is not without its flaws; With a system based around effects and multiple ways to get the same result naturally people want to be efficient with their power points which results in options that are never used, certain character types suffering since point-efficiency doesn't favor them, creating some disconnect between the flavor and the character sheet, and just generally imbalanced options. Some of these are meant to be mitigated by the GM keeping a careful eye on what players are picking, but that's not what I'm here to talk about.

    Instead I wish to examine the mechanics behind character creation in M&M and try to correct what I find to be weak points in the system. Tabletop games being what they are I have no expectation nor delusion that I am going to create perfect fixes nor will I make the system perfectly balanced; hell there is a non-zero chance that in the end my propositions will not pan out. But all the same I wish to make the effort, and hope that anyone reading this will contribute to the discussion.

    As for this week the discussion will start with what is probably one of the weakest links in Mutants & Masterminds: Abilities!

    Anyone who has played a d20 system should recognize Abilities though one distinction worth mentioning is that the third edition of M&M has eight abilities; Strength, Stamina, Agility, Dexterity, Intellect, Fighting, Awareness, Presence. However whereas in D&D and related systems the abilities fueled class features on top of a character's other statistics, M&M's abilities really just fuel skills and maybe your defenses; and given that buying a single point in an ability costs 2 power points they often aren't the best investment in power points. Oh sure buying 1 ability point gets you more than say... a single point in a single skill, but specializing in skills is still often a cheaper investment (more on that subject later). Thus we often see martial arts masters who don't have a single point in the fighting ability, or super-geniuses who don't have a single point in intellect (rarer but I've seen it happen).

    Below I'll be breaking down each ability, first by what that ability buys you and the point value the item is worth, then my personal observation/analysis of the ability, and my proposed changes to the ability. If there is an asterisk* by an item, that means the item has multiple specializations and can be bought for different specializations that may cause the efficiency of the ability to increase.

    Strength
    • Lifting Strength = 1 Power Point
    • Strength-Based Damage = 1 Power Point
    • Athletics Skill = 0.5 Power Points
    • Misc. Uses = 1 or less Power Point(s)
    • Strength is something of a take it or leave it ability in practice; if your character concept revolves around being really strong then yeah the player will take it (whether normally or as a power) but a lot of concepts don't really use physical strength as much. Normally that's fine but the trend bothers me when characters who should be as least somewhat athletic neglect strength completely, as it seems few players remember that one needs a strength rank of 2 to be able to move human beings (for rescuing) or that the athletics skill has uses that merit it being used (but I'll go over those when we analyze skills) at least semi-frequently. Now if huge muscles aren't your thing I don't think you should throw all your points into strength but if your concept does use some strength throwing a few points into Strength would not be wasteful given that it's worth slightly more than it costs, it's just that it's miscellaneous uses are often overlooked.

      As a quick note on "Misc. Uses," strength is also used for grappling, and standalone strength roles. However, grappling is something that requires specialization and thus it's difficult to really quantify it's exact point value. Standalone strength rolls are also a little more probable than other standalone ability rolls, be it via contested strength rolls or affecting something that is otherwise more difficult to move than even super-strength would automatically allow; still these come up infrequently and may vary by GM.
    • Proposed Changes: None. Though I would strongly advise GM's to more carefully pay attention to lifting strength and encourage their players to pay attention to that as well. I would also advise GMs to look for opportunities for straight strength rolls.

    Stamina
    • Toughness Defense = 1 Power Point
    • Fortitude Defense = 1 Power Point
    • Not a whole lot for me to say on this one; everyone rolls toughness at some point, and everyone rolls fortitude at some point. Those two saving throws are important for keeping you in the fight and worth having, especially since unlike Fortitude (which can be bought separately), toughness can't be bought directly and stamina is one of three ways to raise your toughness.
    • Proposed Changes: None, stamina is perfect just the way it is.

    Agility
    • Dodge Defense = 1 Power Point
    • Acrobatics Skill = 0.5 Power Points
    • Stealth Skill = 0.5 Power Points
    • Initiative = 0.25 Power Points
    • Agility is also one of the more useful abilities in the current system, given that it bolsters a defense and two-skills that see some use so not too bad, plus it even bolsters initiative, not as much as the Improved Initiative advantage does, but it's an extra use that makes Agility technically worth more than it costs. However the crux of its point-efficiency is that acrobatics is a trained skill (though in the past I've ruled that parts of it may be rolled untrained, but not many) so agility by itself won't really buy you acrobatics, and while dodge technically pulls double-duty as an active defense and a saving throw in 3rd ed., the saving throw aspect is rarely used to completely negate effects like other saving throws.
    • Proposed Changes: Absorb Sleight-of-Hand and Vehicles skill from Dexterity; while these are technically trained skills and thus not much use without Jack-of-All-Trades or ranks spent in those skills, it does make Jack-of-All-Trades more appealing to take for certain character types, and agility becomes even more useful for them, plus it helps scrap one of the more useless abilities in the game. See below for more on that.

    Dexterity
    • Sleight of Hand Skill = 0.5 Power Points
    • Vehicle Skill = 0.5 Power Points
    • Ranged Attack Skill = 0.5 Power Points*
    • One of the worst abilities in the game, I'd go as far to say as it's even more useless than presence, which is quite infamous (but more on Presence later). Dexterity only fuels a small pool of skills and all of them are trained skills (though I haven't met the GM who enforces that on ranged attacks too much), thus requiring an investment in those skills anyways and that investment would be more efficient than buying Dexterity. Now, I suppose if someone wanted to be capable of ranged attacking with more than one type of ranged weapon AND be good at the other two skills then Dexterity would be worth the points exactly, but I've yet to see the character who does this personally
    • Proposed Changes: Scrap Dexterity: Give Sleight of Hand and Vehicles to Agility, and Ranged Attack to Fighting. This removes a useless ability while bolstering two others with flavor appropriate skills tied to them.

    Intellect
    • Expertise Skill = 0.5 Power Points*
    • Technology Skill = 0.5 Power Points
    • Investigation Skill = 0.5 Power Points
    • Treatment Skill = 0.5 Power Points
    • Misc. = 1 Power Point or less
    • Okay the math as I've presented it doesn't paint a pretty picture for Intellect but in practice it is more used than some other abilities; see the Expertise skill, while a trained skill, can be bought for multiple subjects: Science, Magic, Pop Culture, etc. Intellect also bolsters Technology, a vital skill for a lot of science-based characters, and investigation, a vital skill for the detective types. They are all trained skills though so this hurts its versatility a bit, but Intellect is one of those abilities that make people want Jack-of-all-Trades. Still though, the fact that Expertises are as broad or narrow as the GM and Player decide does often make it a questionable investment that requires some discussion before the player decides if it's worth going for the ability or just individual skills. Still, like strength I think that straight intellect rolls can also see more use in play, especially if the players seem a little stumped.
    • Proposed Changes: None, though it might do with some way to make it more appealing, I'm admittedly drawing a blank on how to do so. Currently all I can suggest is that players think about how generally knowledgeable vs. specialized knowledge they want their character to be.

    Fighting
    • Parry Defense = 1 Power Point
    • Close Combat Skill = 0.5 Power Points*
    • As always, points into a defense is never wasted, the thing that hampers Fighting's point-efficiency is the close-combat skill. If someone wants to have two or more close-combat skills yeah that'll make it exactly or more efficient, but few players seem find appeal in picking up a nearby lamppost to bean the bad guy with so in practice most players only ever take one close-combat skill.
    • Proposed Changes: Absorb the Ranged Attack skill. Since most combat-oriented players take one close-combat and one ranged-combat option fighting will now be one-for-one efficient at worst and better enable flavor match the sheet, as someone once told me, you may specialize but most fighters still pick up some general skill too.

    Awareness
    • Will Defense = 1 Power Point
    • Perception Skill = 0.5 Power Points
    • Insight Skill = 0.5 Power Points
    • Awareness has good things going for it really; bolsters a defense and powers two of the more useful skills in the game, perception and sense motive. While it may not be as widely taken as Stamina is Awareness does still see some use depending on how the player interprets the flavor of their characters willpower and, well, awareness.
    • Proposed Changes: None, not as perfect as Stamina but it's perfectly point-efficient as is, affecting other stats that almost every character will see use out of.

    Presence
    • Persuasion Skill = 0.5 Power Points
    • Deception Skill = 0.5 Power Points
    • Intimidate Skill = 0.5 Power Points
    • Presence-based Expertise = 0.5 Power Points*
    • M&M players are familiar with Presence's reputation as the most useless ability in the game (though I personally think that claim to infamy should belong to Dexterity personally), as presence's only use is to fuel social skills when most players prefer to specialize in one or two of those skills, not to mention at first glance it seems like it only fuels three skills meaning that it'd be cheaper to buy those skills individually; however expertise does have presence-fueled options, namely different types of performances. The book does touch on this fact but doesn't really do much else to reinforce that and thus it's an oft-overlooked option.
    • Proposed Changes: None directly; however I think that we should better emphasize what skills presence affects, and get the performance skills out from under the umbrella of Expertise so that players are better aware of those options, we might even go so far as to separate untrained "Performance" from trained "Instrument." Though admittedly this might be a discussion better saved for when we get to skills.

    So with all of that said what do the rest of you think? Anything I might've overlooked in my analysis? Any other changes you think might work better? When discussing anything please keep in mind...
    1. Keep the discussion focused on what aspect we are covering this week, namely abilities. You may use other aspects they affect or are affected by but ultimately the discussion this week is about abilities.
    2. Criticizing ideas is constructive, criticizing people is insulting, Don't make things or take things personal when discussing items.
    3. Naturally respect other rules on the forums.

    So ladies, gents, and all others; Discuss away!
    Last edited by Nintendogeek01; 2018-06-18 at 09:15 AM.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition Revised: Week 1 - Abilities

    Missed out on the rest of the discussions so far? The links below take you to the other discussions both here and on Ronin Army.

    Last edited by Nintendogeek01; 2018-08-14 at 05:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition Revised: Week 1 - Abilities

    Dexterity is effectively your base ranged attack bonus similar to how fighting is your melle base atack bonus and your melle defense all in one.
    Sorry given how often and how big a part of the system fighting is, having both ranged and mellee attack bonuses nd skils under fighting makes it mandatory to take and ridiculously strong. if you remove dexterity then you have to remove fighting.

    You're right that most combat character usualy have one ranged and one melle option but they still shoud have to pay more to be efficient with both (be it by having to spend points in two atriibutes or more likely by taking ranks in the accurate extra on any ranged power, it's less costly but it's still an extra expense) to be efficent with both than a character that would only focus on one.

    I'd rather that dexterity be made more usefull, one way or another. Maybe making it more usefull for things like deflect. Or making blocking a thing again. (and usefull is time) or having number of 'martial arts' and ' fighting finesse' sort of advantags that let it shine as n occasional replacement for strength a little more in combat.

    As of presence, I have seen someone who tried to make it more worthwhile it by adding a new social skill : Leadership which et yu prety much do the same thing asthe advantage but with some rules adapted to makeit askil. I don' have them hre but I see ow it could work.

    Personaly I'd like to see gather information put back way from nvestigation and back under presence.
    Point is by revamping presence dependent skills and adavantge might be the best way to give it extra worth
    Maybe to discuss when well be talking skills. (I'll have LOTs to say then. I DO NOT like what 3e did to skills, did not like it at all.)
    Last edited by smuchmuch; 2018-06-17 at 05:37 PM.
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition Revised: Week 1 - Abilities

    I think this is a good overview of abilities.
    You’ve it the key issue with regards to attack bonus. Most characters are only ever going to need one or two modes of attack (close/ranged, possibly with alternate effects but using the same attack bonus), so charging points for attacks you’ll never use does hurt dexterity and fighting. Especially when you consider people can buy perception ranged, maybe limited to arms reach for close attacks, completely avoiding the need for attack bonus, it is balanced at 0.5pp/rank. Making both close and ranged attack bonus dependent on the same stat does help that, and boosts fighting, so it’s probably the best quick fix. Still allows for the possibility of an array containing both close and ranged attacks with accurate, which would shave a few points, but at least this way people aren't getting ripped off for the ability to fight effectively with obscure effects.

    How many tines can I possibly use the word attack in one paragraph?

    I disagree with you slightly about intellect though. Firstly, intellect also contributes towards treatment, which you left off. Secondly, when combined with eidetic memory or jack of all trades, intellect effectively becomes every expertise skill combined, in addition to those other skills. Not necessary for everyone, but well worth it for a knowledge based character.

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    Default Re: Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition Revised: Week 1 - Abilities

    I actually think Fighting is pretty much fine as it is, because while pure brutes will just want to buy up Strength and Close Combat (Unarmed), IIRC each array of powers needs it's own close combat skill (although I once remember building a character who mainly fought with an array of Close Combat powers even he had Close Combat (Powers) and Close Combat (Unarmed) just in case a nullifier was about).

    Which is another thing, pure points efficiency isn't the only thing we need to measure. The existence of Nuffiliers or even just the ability to be disarmed means that if you don't primarily use Close Combat (Unarmed) as your main attack skill you're probably going to want to take it (but at that point just buy ranks of Close Attack).

    Also, Presence if the most important Ability. How else will you look like a badass superhero?
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    Default Re: Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition Revised: Week 1 - Abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by smuchmuch View Post
    Dexterity is effectively your base ranged attack bonus similar to how fighting is your melle base atack bonus and your melle defense all in one.
    Sorry given how often and how big a part of the system fighting is, having both ranged and mellee attack bonuses nd skils under fighting makes it mandatory to take and ridiculously strong. if you remove dexterity then you have to remove fighting.

    You're right that most combat character usualy have one ranged and one melle option but they still shoud have to pay more to be efficient with both (be it by having to spend points in two atriibutes or more likely by taking ranks in the accurate extra on any ranged power, it's less costly but it's still an extra expense) to be efficent with both than a character that would only focus on one.

    I'd rather that dexterity be made more usefull, one way or another. Maybe making it more usefull for things like deflect. Or making blocking a thing again. (and usefull is time) or having number of 'martial arts' and ' fighting finesse' sort of advantags that let it shine as n occasional replacement for strength a little more in combat.

    As of presence, I have seen someone who tried to make it more worthwhile it by adding a new social skill : Leadership which et yu prety much do the same thing asthe advantage but with some rules adapted to makeit askil. I don' have them hre but I see ow it could work.

    Personaly I'd like to see gather information put back way from nvestigation and back under presence.
    Point is by revamping presence dependent skills and adavantge might be the best way to give it extra worth
    Maybe to discuss when well be talking skills. (I'll have LOTs to say then. I DO NOT like what 3e did to skills, did not like it at all.)
    'should' is the operative word in regards to paying more to have both, because it's sadly already trivially easy to avoid paying that extra cost (though I do agree they should). That said I don't think my proposal puts a nail in the coffin of specialization: while yes a player could hypothetically go all-in and have their parry, close and ranged combat through fighting the thing is they don't have to. The fighting ability represents how much of their character's combat skill is ingrained in them to a natural level while the skills and buying the defense separately represent them focusing their training somehow and it's up to the player to decide which is more appropriate flavor for their character, the only difference with my suggestion is that the fighting ability won't seem like a waste of points.

    Still I don't want to shut out any suggestions you might have to improve on Dexterity if you think that's the way to go, so let me ask you a question in regards to that; what's this about blocking? While I've some degree of familiarity with 2nd ed., it's not thorough so I'm not sure I know what you're talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Gifts View Post
    I disagree with you slightly about intellect though. Firstly, intellect also contributes towards treatment, which you left off. Secondly, when combined with eidetic memory or jack of all trades, intellect effectively becomes every expertise skill combined, in addition to those other skills. Not necessary for everyone, but well worth it for a knowledge based character.
    Thank you for catching me on treatment, fixed.

    Jack-of-all-trades and eidetic memory do make for a useful combo for the typical smart character but I neglected mentioning eidetic memory in my initial analysis since technically all that's needed is Jack-of-All-Trades to begin rolling on the Expertise skills; eidetic memory simply adds a bonus for, specifically, recalling info. Anything else I have to say on advantages will have to wait when advantages are discussed. Anyway if I sounded like I was ragging on Intellect I was saying it wrong, it's just that when I stepped back to analyze it the ability wound up looking more and more like an odd duck.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    I actually think Fighting is pretty much fine as it is, because while pure brutes will just want to buy up Strength and Close Combat (Unarmed), IIRC each array of powers needs it's own close combat skill (although I once remember building a character who mainly fought with an array of Close Combat powers even he had Close Combat (Powers) and Close Combat (Unarmed) just in case a nullifier was about).

    Which is another thing, pure points efficiency isn't the only thing we need to measure. The existence of Nuffiliers or even just the ability to be disarmed means that if you don't primarily use Close Combat (Unarmed) as your main attack skill you're probably going to want to take it (but at that point just buy ranks of Close Attack).

    Also, Presence if the most important Ability. How else will you look like a badass superhero?
    Not quite right, as written M&M will let you get away with having a single ranged or close-combat skill cover your whole array (though if your array includes both M&M prefers you to take the close and ranged attack skills separately) with maybe an exception made for if two melee attacks in an array are vastly different (which begs the question of why they're arrayed in the first place).

    True enough in regards to looking at more than point efficiency, though it's also my hope that my proposed change to fighting will help encourage people to have ranks in fighting so that they will be a little more versatile.
    Last edited by Nintendogeek01; 2018-06-18 at 01:10 AM.

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    Default Re: Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition Revised: Week 1 - Abilities

    I agree with a lot of this, particularly the point about Dexterity being very possibly even a more-poorly designed Ability than Presence. When I wrote my guide I put a whole spoiler in there to rant about why the Abilities system doesn't work, on top of the individual analysis of Abilities. Not that I'm bitter, or anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nintendogeek01 View Post
    As for this week the discussion will start with what is probably one of the weakest links in Mutants & Masterminds: Abilities!
    And how. In my current drafting of M&M house rules, I've removed them entirely. After going through several versions of moving things around to make them all give you more-or-less what they're worth, I finally decided they're just not worth it in a game like M&M. What makes Abilities such a poor part of the system, I think, is that with a few easily-shifted exceptions, they don't actually add anything to the game. Almost everything you get from Abilities you can get elsewhere. And, and this is critical, that includes the fluff Abilities are meant to represent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nintendogeek01 View Post
    Thus we often see martial arts masters who don't have a single point in the fighting ability, or super-geniuses who don't have a single point in intellect (rarer but I've seen it happen).
    That's why these things make sense. M&M explicitly states that skill ranks can come from both training and natural talent. And the Abilities are really only a sensible thing to buy if you actually want your character to be good at everything they offer. From a point-efficiency perspective, yes, but also from a fluff perspective. If I want a character who is highly charismatic and likable, but with an innocent nature, buying Presence actually hampers my concept, because it's making my character good at things (intimidating others and lying to them) that he should not be good at. ...Well, more accurately it's probably making him mediocre at those things, but still. I get the fluff I want by buying Persuasion and saying, "Okay, he's got some experience here because he's friendly and talks to people a lot, but mostly, it's just that he's very good-natured, likable, and charismatic."

    Likewise, most geniuses aren't actually brilliant at everything. That at least gets a nod with the Trained Only stuff...at the cost of making every rank of Int burn anywhere from 0.5 to 1.5 PP depending on which skills your particular genius doesn't actually know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nintendogeek01 View Post
    Strength is something of a take it or leave it ability in practice; if your character concept revolves around being really strong then yeah the player will take it (whether normally or as a power) but a lot of concepts don't really use physical strength as much. Normally that's fine but the trend bothers me when characters who should be as least somewhat athletic neglect strength completely, as it seems few players remember that one needs a strength rank of 2 to be able to move human beings (for rescuing) or that the athletics skill has uses that merit it being used (but I'll go over those when we analyze skills) at least semi-frequently. Now if huge muscles aren't your thing I don't think you should throw all your points into strength but if your concept does use some strength throwing a few points into Strength would not be wasteful given that it's worth slightly more than it costs, it's just that it's miscellaneous uses are often overlooked.
    I'd also note that characters who make use of non-Strength attacks may get tricked into buying the same capability multiple times if they buy Strength and don't massage the mechanics some to make it work. There are ways to do it (Reduced Strength Damage being the most straightforward), but it's not intuitive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nintendogeek01 View Post
    Proposed Changes: None. Though I would strongly advise GM's to more carefully pay attention to lifting strength and encourage their players to pay attention to that as well. I would also advise GMs to look for opportunities for straight strength rolls.
    Back when I was trying to fix Abilities, I added a rule I called "Strength-discounted" attacks, where your Strength bonus was discounted from the cost of attack powers that weren't Strength-based (though you could only use one Strength-discounted power at a time). It's nothing you can't already do with Reduced Strength Damage, but it puts it right in front of peoples' faces so they don't accidentally double-pay for stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nintendogeek01 View Post
    Proposed Changes: Absorb Sleight-of-Hand and Vehicles skill from Dexterity; while these are technically trained skills and thus not much use without Jack-of-All-Trades or ranks spent in those skills, it does make Jack-of-All-Trades more appealing to take for certain character types, and agility becomes even more useful for them, plus it helps scrap one of the more useless abilities in the game. See below for more on that.
    I'm leery of making Abilities worth more than they cost (not that Strength and Agility don't already) because it can either lead to using Reduced Traits to get free PP, or implicitly close off the use of Reduced Traits to get rid of bonuses you don't want. Which, while a somewhat inelegant solution, is at least a way to solve some of the problems with the Abilities system.

    That being said, in my house rules I combined Athletics, Acrobatics, and Vehicles into a single skill (Mobility) and divided the functions of Sleight of Hand among Stealth and Mobility. So in practice it kinda amounts to the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nintendogeek01 View Post
    Dexterity
    Ranged Attack Skill = 0.5 Power Points*
    Just kinda wanted to applaud writing it like this rather than treating it as the Ranged Attack advantage and worth one point, and then having to explain why it's not really that. This is a much more precise way to describe the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nintendogeek01 View Post
    Okay the math as I've presented it doesn't paint a pretty picture for Intellect but in practice it is more used than some other abilities; see the Expertise skill, while a trained skill, can be bought for multiple subjects: Science, Magic, Pop Culture, etc. Intellect also bolsters Technology, a vital skill for a lot of science-based characters, and investigation, a vital skill for the detective types. They are all trained skills though so this hurts its versatility a bit, but Intellect is one of those abilities that make people want Jack-of-all-Trades. Still though, the fact that Expertises are as broad or narrow as the GM and Player decide does often make it a questionable investment that requires some discussion before the player decides if it's worth going for the ability or just individual skills. Still, like strength I think that straight intellect rolls can also see more use in play, especially if the players seem a little stumped.
    In practice, I've found that Expertise (All) is about par with most others skills, making Intellect itself balanced if you have Jack of All Trades, assuming you want everything it gives you. Although multiple specific Expertise skills offer way, way better fluff, so I tend to use Limited Intellect (or just Intellect with Reduced The Other Skills, but Limited is cleaner to write) rather than Expertise itself to buy Expertise, with Jack of All Trades and then a Quirk restricting how many Expertise skills it applies to, so the value is maintained but you get the fluff of being good at a set of specific things relevant to your character rather than literally everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nintendogeek01 View Post
    Proposed Changes: Absorb the Ranged Attack skill. Since most combat-oriented players take one close-combat and one ranged-combat option fighting will now be one-for-one efficient at worst and better enable flavor match the sheet, as someone once told me, you may specialize but most fighters still pick up some general skill too.
    In older versions of my house rules I had Dodge and Parry worth 0.5 PP/rank each, so they were priced against Toughness. So at one point I did just this; Fighting got Dodge, Parry, Close Attack, and Ranged Attack, all valued at 0.5 each (Agility and Dexterity also got combat bonuses, they just stacked, though still PL-capped of course).

    It still didn't really do the job. Attack bonus is correctly valued at 0.5 PP/rank. No matter how many or how few attack forms you want to be good at. Maximum. Period. Yes, even then. So Fighting was still a waste compared to Accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nintendogeek01 View Post
    Presence-based Expertise = 0.5 Power Points
    This is...being a bit generous, I think. While it's technically true, skill in performance is definitely one of the more niche capabilities in most games. I'm not saying it can't be useful, and it's certainly good fluff, but it's very expensive fluff if you're buying it this way (or just buying those skills on their own).

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    I actually think Fighting is pretty much fine as it is, because while pure brutes will just want to buy up Strength and Close Combat (Unarmed), IIRC each array of powers needs it's own close combat skill (although I once remember building a character who mainly fought with an array of Close Combat powers even he had Close Combat (Powers) and Close Combat (Unarmed) just in case a nullifier was about).
    You can actually accomplish this using Accurate just fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Which is another thing, pure points efficiency isn't the only thing we need to measure. The existence of Nuffiliers or even just the ability to be disarmed means that if you don't primarily use Close Combat (Unarmed) as your main attack skill you're probably going to want to take it (but at that point just buy ranks of Close Attack).
    While this is true, from a system standpoint, you have to remember that being susceptible to having your attacks taken away is 100% your decision, although often one you make implicitly due to your character's fluff. There's no downside to being a pure unarmed fighter. (Not even lack of range; speeds in M&M can be so ludicrously high that range can't keep up anyway and if you really want to attack at a distance as an unarmed combatant Elongation works for unarmed fighting and does range better than Ranged).

    And the thing is, you can still do it even without being unarmed.

    Combat Skill: Damage 10 (Accurate 5) {15}. (Add Innate if you're paranoid, although Nullify Skill is pretty ludicrously rare anyway, Variable Descriptor's also a sensible choice to better fluff wielding a variety of weapons).

    My Cool Combat Array: 35-point Array, Reduced Combat Skill 15 {20+X}.

    That gives you an array of cool 3/rank, Accurate 5 combat powers, and if it gets Nullified, you have your baseline PL 10 fighting ability to fall back on (or of course, if you want to be below PL with your powers off, you can buy it weaker).

    End of the day, getting all the fluff you want at the efficient point cost is usually doable, and will generally result in a better-balanced group overall if everyone's doing it. But it's usually less intuitive and less elegant, which is somewhat annoying.
    Last edited by Quellian-dyrae; 2018-06-18 at 01:30 AM.
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    Default Re: Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition Revised: Week 1 - Abilities

    Just kinda wanted to applaud writing it like this rather than treating it as the Ranged Attack advantage and worth one point, and then having to explain why it's not really that. This is a much more precise way to describe the issue.
    Which is only true if you want to have a character who use only one kind of ranged atacks. As the ranged combat skill is meant to be specific to one kind of attack (ie guns, bow, trowing knives, ec). It's not new to this edition either by the way, it's really the aquivalent of the feat attack specialisaton in 2n ed which let you have +2 in one kind of attack for one pp thus amounting at the same cost of 0.5 pp for +1 on attack rolls with a specific kin of weapon or fight style.

    If you want to have any character who can use more than one kind of ranged attack we're back to dxterity being effectively a ranged attack bonus.
    And yes I sometime want my gunslinger to be abe to use a bow or my pyrokinetic to be able to throw a rock.
    With all due respect, just because some people love to min max and rely on one trick ponny builds (which I'll admit the system does overly encourage) doesn't mean the system should be changed entirey around it.

    This is where Gm need to learn to occasionaly (it's delicate balance, true, too much will frustrate players) learn to force players out of their comfort zone once in a while.
    A green arrow expy has bought some acuracy for ridculously cheap with the 'ranged attack' (bow) skill ? Well maybe you may remember that bow are either device or equipement, anyway, one way or anoher it mean they can be disrmed, broken and stolen and when that happen, thats where spendin additional point to have other attacks would be rewarded. Or use some creative use of create object to create cover all aound the battlefield forcing your character to get dangerously close.
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    Default Re: Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition Revised: Week 1 - Abilities

    I actually like the Abilities as they stand, mostly -- although there's no denying it would be nice if Dexterity were slightly more useful.

    However, they do kind of require that the GM enforce their use. Like, object to min-maxed characters if they are fighters who don't buy any Fighting, etc. In my personal library of builds, picking out the appropriate levels of Abilities is one of the first things I do, and it leads to more flavorful characters IMO.

    There's a handy table of descriptions under Abilities for what each numerical value of an Ability means! I say, treat it as an integral part of the system and use it!
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    Default Re: Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition Revised: Week 1 - Abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by smuchmuch View Post
    Which is only true if you want to have a character who use only one kind of ranged atacks. As the ranged combat skill is meant to be specific to one kind of attack (ie guns, bow, trowing knives, ec). It's not new to this edition either by the way, it's really the aquivalent of the feat attack specialisaton in 2n ed which let you have +2 in one kind of attack for one pp thus amounting at the same cost of 0.5 pp for +1 on attack rolls with a specific kin of weapon or fight style.

    If you want to have any character who can use more than one kind of ranged attack we're back to dxterity being effectively a ranged attack bonus.
    That's the assumption the system was built on, yeah. NG's way of putting it more precisely defines what the situation actually is. Dexterity's attack bonus doesn't give you 1 PP/rank worth of stuff; it gives you 0.5 PP per rank worth of stuff, which in theory the game might otherwise encourage you to buy multiple times.

    Quote Originally Posted by smuchmuch View Post
    And yes I sometime want my gunslinger to be abe to use a bow or my pyrokinetic to be able to throw a rock.
    With all due respect, just because some people love to min max and rely on one trick ponny builds (which I'll admit the system does overly encourage) doesn't mean the system should be changed entirey around it.
    I don't think avoiding having to pay multiple times for the same benefit is min-maxing. It's just common sense. The game has a mechanic explicitly designed to allow me to not have to pay multiple times for an entire group of related superpowers. But for some reason being able to hit with more than one specific flavor of attack demands double to quadruple the investment in accuracy?

    And as I noted above, the game has mechanics that let you do that without restricting yourself to a single trick anyway. Accurate Variable Descriptor [Skill]-descriptor Damage. Add Innate if you're paranoid. Congratulations, you can wield any weapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by smuchmuch View Post
    This is where Gm need to learn to occasionaly (it's delicate balance, true, too much will frustrate players) learn to force players out of their comfort zone once in a while.
    A green arrow expy has bought some acuracy for ridculously cheap with the 'ranged attack' (bow) skill ? Well maybe you may remember that bow are either device or equipement, anyway, one way or anoher it mean they can be disrmed, broken and stolen and when that happen, thats where spendin additional point to have other attacks would be rewarded. Or use some creative use of create object to create cover all aound the battlefield forcing your character to get dangerously close.
    See, this is operating under the assumption that 2 PP/rank is the correct cost for attack bonus, and then 1 PP/rank is effectively Attack Bonus Limited to Close/Ranged, and 0.5 PP/rank is effectively Attack Bonus Limited to Close/Ranged Limited to One Form of Attack. I admit, if you are looking at it from that perspective, trying to spend 0.5 PP/rank for attack bonus will look like min-maxing. You're trying to take a double-limit that doesn't actually hinder you!

    The thing is, those aren't really valid limits. You control what you attack with the vast majority of the time. M&M speeds can be high enough that range offers very limited tactical value. An elongating guy who punches people really well is virtually impossible to deprive of its main method of attack, and the one option for doing it (Nullify his Elongation AND any super-movement powers he possesses and force him to fight a ranged attacker in either open terrain or who has access to flight) is pretty insanely specific. They don't actually pass muster for the 50% of situations consideration.

    And attack bonus is actually better balanced at 0.5 PP/rank. Attack bonus is statistically weaker than effect rank, which costs 1 PP/rank. Now, effect rank gets its cost inflated by Extras while attack bonus doesn't, but you can't really balance the stat based on extras that any given character or attack may or may not use. And it only costs 1 PP/rank (Area, upgrade Range to Perception, Perception Limited to Close) to obviate attack bonus entirely. 2 PP/rank for attack bonus is way more expensive than it deserves.

    And the thing is, even if that were a correct price point (which some GMs may feel it is, more power to them), the game would still be better off just making that the cost for attack bonus straight up, and using Complications to define where you're weak. The Complication system is a much more elegant way to resolve things like "your main form of attack is unavailable; you can still fight, but it'll be at a penalty, but good news is you get a Hero Point!" Rather than forcing people to either pay through the nose for backup attacks that will be dead weight the great majority of the time, or be utterly useless when they find themselves in a situation where they can't use their main attack form. Neither is a particularly palatable option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    However, they do kind of require that the GM enforce their use. Like, object to min-maxed characters if they are fighters who don't buy any Fighting, etc. In my personal library of builds, picking out the appropriate levels of Abilities is one of the first things I do, and it leads to more flavorful characters IMO.

    There's a handy table of descriptions under Abilities for what each numerical value of an Ability means! I say, treat it as an integral part of the system and use it!
    Also something I tend to object to being referred to as min-maxing. Min-maxing Abilities is stuff like taking negative Dexterity, Fighting, and Presence. It is not min-maxing to just not pay for stuff you don't want.

    I actually find the Abilities offer some of the blandest flavor in the game, myself. It's exacerbated by their high costs, and the fact that their stated flavor translates poorly to the mechanics. In D&D, having an 18 Charisma has an important impact on your social skills; you will always be four points better in your social skills than a character with Charisma 10. Because all other resources are bought separately, and options for increasing your ability scores are available to both equally. If I want to play a character with really good Bluff skill, I need to invest in Charisma.

    In M&M, having Presence 4 just gives you some social points to start with; the cap is the same. If I want a character with a really good Deception skill, investing in Presence 4 burns four points on things I don't care about and two points on literally nothing (you can argue six points on things I don't care about if you deem performance Expertise skills to be worth the points inherently).

    But beyond the mechanics of it...say I'm a PL 10 energy blaster. But, you know, my guy's not just some average Joe who can throw fire. He's built and knows how to handle himself. To represent that, I buy Strength 2 and Fighting 3! According to that handy table, I am a gifted fighter with well above average strength! Huzzah! Except in actual play your average beat cop is just as naturally gifted, and if I try to use those skills against even say a fairly typical level-appropriate Minion (probably PL 6-8), I'm going to take several rounds on average just to drop one of them (or I'll get frustrated after doing nothing to a PL 8 Minion two to three rounds in a row and finally just nuke it with fire). This doesn't make me feel like a gifted fighter. In play, I'm almost never going to actually use those capabilities. They're a case of "telling" rather than "showing". "I'm a gifted fighter, honest!" Nobody is going to remember my character for being strong and knowing how to handle himself, unless maybe the GM explicitly sets up situations where not only do I have to use those abilities, but in a simple enough challenge that I can actually succeed.

    Likewise, given a choice between Presence 3 and Persuasion 12, the latter is going to make me feel like I am gifted with natural charisma way better than the former is. Especially for a character who is not meant to be imposing or a good liar. And even if I do want to be adept in all the social skills...well, Persuasion, Deception, and Intimidation 12 + Attractive 2 is still going to do a better job of it than Presence 10.

    Meanwhile, for those 7 points (since I am buying Parry either way), I could have bought Investigation +10, Contacts, and Well Informed. Now I'm not just some average energy blaster, I'm an energy-blasting detective. That distinctly changes the flavor of my character, and it's something I can use regularly. Even if investigation isn't a big part of the game, I'll always be able to spout things like, "Ah, the Crimson Bat! I have heard of your efforts to rob local blood banks and sell what you steal on the black market to desperate people without insurance! Be warned, fellow heroes, while he has adopted the appearance of a vampire, blood control is his actual power!"

    Or maybe I buy Immunity to Fire Damage and Environmental Cold, and Languages (Japanese). Those capabilities also might not come up super-often in game (maybe the fire immunity...) but they'll matter when they do. My experience when I have the chance to use them will measure up to my expectations based on what the game is telling me.

    But it's not min-maxing to say there are better things to spend your limited point budget on than Abilities. That's just...deciding what your priorities are, and allocating your resources accordingly.
    Last edited by Quellian-dyrae; 2018-06-18 at 12:09 PM.
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    Default Re: Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition Revised: Week 1 - Abilities

    I've seen at least two people put out a suggestion exploring ways to improve dexterity, so what suggestions do you all have?

    Also since Quellian has given their exhaustive analysis on presence I suppose I'd also like to ask since I was personally drawing blanks on ways to improve presence, does anyone have suggestions for presence while we're at it? I know awarding a social advantage is a common houserule, though that's not really as... clean compared to everything else. Abilities all give a straight-forward mathematical bonus to skills or defenses (with strength being the only one doing something different from those and even the bonuses to strength and strength-based damage being quantified by the system as-written). But the social advantage award is not straight math, which isn't inherently a bad thing, just seems to be odd given the function the rest of the abilities serve. May not be explaining this as eloquently as I like but that's the core of why I don't favor that particular houserule.

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    Default Re: Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition Revised: Week 1 - Abilities

    I tried the bonus advantage thing for Presence once, didn't really like how it worked out in practice. The one I had settled on when I was still using Abilities was for each rank of Presence to give a bonus skill point that could only be spent on Deception, Intimidation, or Persuasion (or maybe add Expertise and Insight to the list). It's still a little paradigm-breaking, but it does okay.

    You could simplify it by just saying the Presence bonus is doubled for whichever social skill you have the most ranks in (choose one if tied).

    I had also come up with a custom Benefit that eased the issue with multiple lower social skills usually being worse than a single high one:

    Benefit (Social Butterfly): When interacting with others in a manner where multiple interaction skills can apply, you may roll multiple ones, and the subject's reaction is whatever would be most positive for you. Usually, that means based on whichever roll was highest, but not always (if the higher roll faced a higher DC, for example, or that skill would lead to a less favorable result such as Intimidation only making the subject angry, a lower roll might be used). You may roll up to two qualifying skills as long as both of them are at least rank 5, or up to three if all of them are at least rank 10. The skills must all be valid based on your interaction; you could use both Persuasion and Intimidation if you are making a "carrot and stick" offer, for example, or informing them of something bad but also offering to help them avoid it, but you couldn't just make a straight threat and then roll both.
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    Default Re: Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition Revised: Week 1 - Abilities

    I did a thing with Benefit, especially high rank Benefit. Since it really has no mechanical effect, I let it add a bonus equal to its rank once per session if the player could justify how Benefit 5 (Billionaire) could affect the outcome. Usually worked with social skills, so Bruce Wayne can buy his way out of situations, a military officer could try pulling rank, or Darkseid could try to use his position as Despot of Apokolips to convince people he's right (or he could disintegrate some schmuck....).

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    Default Re: Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition Revised: Week 1 - Abilities

    Custom benefits eh? Not a bad idea, I'll have to stew on this, maybe a new advantage? Worth revisiting once we hit advantages (but don't let that stop anyone from throwing out other suggestions for the Presence Ability).

    Anyway, still haven't heard any thoughts on buffing Dexterity, anyone got suggestions?
    Last edited by Nintendogeek01; 2018-06-19 at 01:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition Revised: Week 1 - Abilities

    I think these days, if I were to refine the Abilities rather than removing them, it'd look something like this:

    Strength: +1 Damage, +1 Lifting Rank. Treat miscellaneous Strength functions as factors of lifting rank for purposes of Limits. The Damage bonus is automatically discounted from the cost of attack powers that aren't Strength-based (although only one power using Strength's bonus can be used in any round, so you don't apply the discount multiple times on Linked powers for example, or apply it to powers Linked to Strength Damage).

    Stamina: +1 Toughness, +1 Fortitude.

    Agility: +1 Dodge*, +2 Mobility*, +2 Initiative.

    Dexterity: +1 Parry*, +2 Stealth, +1 Attack Bonus*.

    Fighting: Removed.

    Intellect: +1 Expertise, +1 Investigation, +1 Technology, +1 Treatment.

    Awareness: +1 Will, +1 Insight, +1 Perception.

    Presence: +1 Deception, +1 Intimidation, +1 Persuasion, +1 skill rank for Deception, Intimidation, or Persuasion only.

    *Dodge, Parry, and Attack Bonus are changed to cost 0.5 PP/rank. The Close/Ranged attack bonus skills and advantages are removed; if you want to only be accurate with certain attacks, establish it as a Complication. Mobility absorbs Athletics, Acrobatics, Vehicles, and the Escape and Contortion options of Sleight of Hand (Stealth gets all other functions of Sleight of Hand). Strength (lifting rank, specifically) may be substituted for Agility on Mobility checks for making or resisting combat actions that called for Athletics.

    A somewhat cleaner, but perhaps slightly less intuitive, version might turn Initiative from its own thing to a function of Mobility (Improved Initiative would still boost it, but base initiative would be a Mobility check), and do this:

    Strength: +1 Damage, +1 Lifting Rank. Treat miscellaneous Strength functions as factors of lifting rank for purposes of Limits. The Damage bonus is automatically discounted from the cost of attack powers that aren't Strength-based (although only one power using Strength's bonus can be used in any round, so you don't apply the discount multiple times on Linked powers for example, or apply it to powers Linked to Strength Damage).

    Stamina: +1 Toughness, +1 Fortitude.

    Agility: +1 Dodge, +1 Parry, +1 Attack Bonus, +1 Mobility.

    Dexterity: Removed.

    Fighting: Removed.

    Intellect: +1 Expertise, +1 Investigation, +1 Technology, +1 Treatment.

    Awareness: +1 Will, +1 Perception, +1 Stealth.

    Presence: +1 Deception, +1 Insight, +1 Intimidation, +1 Persuasion.

    The premise of Stealth being Awareness rather than Agility is because, well, you have to be pretty keenly aware of your surroundings (cover, concealment, things that might make noise, enemy sightlines, etc) to effectively use stealth. Presence taking Insight just makes it even more the straight-up social Ability. You could also mix it up by moving like...Deception to Intellect, Insight and Investigation to Awareness, and Will to Presence. Having two fewer Abilities would also reduce the PP impact on players who prefer having a few points spread around their Abilities (a player whose characters average around Abilities of 2 would be saving 8 PP, for example).

    EDIT: For what it's worth, I remove Fighting rather than Dexterity because Dexterity at least has interesting fluff on its own. Hand-eye coordination and such. And technically it's a DC 5 Dex check to catch a falling character . There is no need for a separate Ability telling you how good you are at fighting, when you have combat stats for doing just that; I can't even imagine why somebody would ever roll a Fighting check rather than an attack roll or Parry check.
    Last edited by Quellian-dyrae; 2018-06-19 at 02:18 PM.
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    Default Re: Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition Revised: Week 1 - Abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Quellian-dyrae View Post
    EDIT: For what it's worth, I remove Fighting rather than Dexterity because Dexterity at least has interesting fluff on its own. Hand-eye coordination and such. And technically it's a DC 5 Dex check to catch a falling character . There is no need for a separate Ability telling you how good you are at fighting, when you have combat stats for doing just that; I can't even imagine why somebody would ever roll a Fighting check rather than an attack roll or Parry check.
    I think its one of those things for when you want a character good at melee combat, any kind of combat. Sure the Hulk gets by with a huge strength and ranks in Close Combat: Unarmed, and presumably so can Batman. But for a character like say Lady Shiva you want a character that if they're given a sword they can fight, if they're unarmed they can fight, if they have alien bluntonium energy doohickeys they can fight. So fighting as an ability make sense in a obtuse sort of way. Also, if you drop Fighting and Dexterity we're back to 2E M&M with the classic six attributes, and raising attack bonus and defenses directly via points.

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    Default Re: Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition Revised: Week 1 - Abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Beleriphon View Post
    I think its one of those things for when you want a character good at melee combat, any kind of combat. Sure the Hulk gets by with a huge strength and ranks in Close Combat: Unarmed, and presumably so can Batman. But for a character like say Lady Shiva you want a character that if they're given a sword they can fight, if they're unarmed they can fight, if they have alien bluntonium energy doohickeys they can fight. So fighting as an ability make sense in a obtuse sort of way.
    I would figure Hulk and Batman would be fine with anything they get their hands on too. Most characters probably would. However, since that capability only matters in very specific circumstances that will almost always be intentionally set up by the GM, it should not cost more than only being good with, say, swords. Just let the guy who's only good with swords take a Complication that if it's forced to fight without a sword it takes -5 to hit or whatever. The GM hands him a Hero Point when he's forced to fight without a sword and he takes the penalty. Done, simple, and you don't have people paying anywhere from 1 PP/2 ranks to 2 PP/rank for attack bonus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beleriphon View Post
    Also, if you drop Fighting and Dexterity we're back to 2E M&M with the classic six attributes,
    I don't particularly consider this a thing to avoid. It's not that I'm inherently for it either, I just see no particular reason eight Abilities is better than six. If I can fit all the actual stuff into six Abilities, six is all I need.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beleriphon View Post
    and raising attack bonus and defenses directly via points.
    This, on the other hand, I would say is a good thing (and is in fact part of the point). It is much much much better for the game to present one way of gaining any particular capability that characters purchase at a single rate than a bunch of different ways to buy the same thing at different costs.
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    Default Re: Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition Revised: Week 1 - Abilities

    While going back to six abilities isn't what I've explicitly set out to do, QD's correct that this wouldn't automatically be a bad thing; having said that none of my current ideas are going in that direction either.

    As for how much close-combat skill costs I've already mathed out up there, but I think what may have been left unsaid was that the 0.5 points is indeed for a single close-combat skill. Specialization is and should be cheaper to pay for, but specialization is what it is. If a player winds up finding what they chose to specialize in ineffective that's not really hero point worthy either, they made the conscious choice at the start of character creation to specialize with all the perks and drawbacks that entails; characters with removable devices often forego getting hero points because of the discount they got on the powers attached to the device after all.

    Now if they buy fighting because they fully intend to have a fallback style they're buying two-close (well more than two if we want to be completely honest) combat options and 1 parry, combined to be worth exactly what they're paying for. I personally tend to not neglect fighting on appropriate characters simply because I do like having the option to bean bad guys with a lamppost should the whim take me. Now yes I'm aware certain powers and extras can circumvent the fighting cost; should they be allowed to? Your mileage may vary by GM, and heck maybe even by the powers being used. But that bit is a discussion best saved for later before we stray too far from abilities.

    On our original subject, some discussion here and on Ronin Army have inspired a new and slightly altered suggestion from my original post.

    Instead of throwing out dexterity, instead we throw out fighting and give it all to dexterity; this avoids the possibility of buffing up agility too much (which is already worth slightly more than it costs), makes it so each point of dex as an ability buffs ranged and close attack (with specialization coming from individual skill purchases), and gives it a defense to bolster as well. We then have sleight of hand and vehicles still there if anyone wants to throw points in it, but even if no one takes those skills at least the rest of the dex investment doesn't go to waste.
    Last edited by Nintendogeek01; 2018-06-20 at 12:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition Revised: Week 1 - Abilities

    Gotten quiet over here...

    Anyway, double-checked my math on my latest DEX suggestion and realized that this would wind up making DEX worth 3 points, of course that's under the generous assumption that sleight of hand and vehicles will see use but there it is. However maybe this will work.

    Proposed revision of Agility
    • Dodge Defense = 1 Power Point
    • Acrobatics Skill = 0.5 Power Points
    • Stealth Skill = 0.5 Power Points
    • Initiative = 0.25 Power Points

    Proposed revision of Dexterity
    • Parry Defense = 1 Power Point
    • Vehicle Skill = 0.5 Power Points
    • Ranged Attack Skill = 0.5 Power Points*
    • Close Combat Skill = 0.5 Power Points*

    Assuming that Sleight of Hand has been divided between Acrobatics & Stealth this puts Agility at being worth 2.25 power points and Dexterity at 2.5 power points mathematically. Practically this may not impact agility too much, but it does make two of its related skills more useful and initiative and dodge defense are both useful things to have. Meanwhile Dexterity is now tied to a defense, and both ranged and close combat skills, something most players will want to take. They may wish to specialize but they now may have some incentive to bring dex up at least a little bit if they want some fallbacks.
    Last edited by Nintendogeek01; 2018-06-22 at 11:30 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DwarfBarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Jersey

    Default Re: Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition Revised: Week 1 - Abilities

    I always thought that Fighting should be scrapped as an Ability. It doesn't fit the same innate capability system the other Abilities and the ranking is way out of whack too. The theoretical human maximum is something like a 7 or 8, but melee combatants often have Fighting starting at like 10-12.

    I would take the Close Combat association and give it to Dexterity to make that the one and only aiming/offense Ability. Then take the Parry association and give that to Agility, making it the only avoiding/defense Ability.

    I think that this would give Dexterity the boost it needs and make the game a lot more self consistent. You can still get Ranged and Close Combat Feats and particular weapon Skills if you want the huge attack bonus, but this distinguishes attacker character from defender characters and people who can fight with everything vs people who really specialize. It also leaves more room to pick up a weapon and not go past your PL cap since you maxed Strength/Fighting.
    Light a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2014

    Default Re: Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition Revised: Week 1 - Abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by GAZ View Post
    I always thought that Fighting should be scrapped as an Ability. It doesn't fit the same innate capability system the other Abilities and the ranking is way out of whack too. The theoretical human maximum is something like a 7 or 8, but melee combatants often have Fighting starting at like 10-12.

    I would take the Close Combat association and give it to Dexterity to make that the one and only aiming/offense Ability. Then take the Parry association and give that to Agility, making it the only avoiding/defense Ability.

    I think that this would give Dexterity the boost it needs and make the game a lot more self consistent. You can still get Ranged and Close Combat Feats and particular weapon Skills if you want the huge attack bonus, but this distinguishes attacker character from defender characters and people who can fight with everything vs people who really specialize. It also leaves more room to pick up a weapon and not go past your PL cap since you maxed Strength/Fighting.
    The suggestion to make agility defensive and dexterity offensive has been suggested before, and I must admit I do love the theory. However...

    Proposed revision of Agility
    • Dodge Defense = 1 Power Point
    • Parry Defense = 1 Power Point
    • Acrobatics Skill = 0.5 Power Points
    • Stealth Skill = 0.5 Power Points
    • Initiative = 0.25 Power Points

    Proposed revision of Dexterity
    • Vehicle Skill = 0.5 Power Points
    • Ranged Attack Skill = 0.5 Power Points*
    • Close Combat Skill = 0.5 Power Points*

    NOTE: This is after other adjustments already made to the abilities between this and Ronin Army forums.

    As you can see, Dexterity is now in as bad or worse a position as it was before, and Agility is now technically worth 3.25 points; while 3rd ed's baseline agility was already worth slightly more than it costs, an extra point and then some is too much.

    EDIT: Though... a thought; what if we give acrobatics and stealth to dexterity like it was in 2E (and by the same token like it is in other d20 systems)?
    Last edited by Nintendogeek01; 2018-06-26 at 01:54 PM.

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