What's the right amount of pre-game setting info?

[Amaril]

I'm gonna be running a game for my long-standing group soon, in a setting of my own creation. We've already talked about the general concept, and some of my inspirations for the idea, so they know the basics of what to expect. However, I want to give them a little more detail before we sit down for our session 0.

In the past, I've made the mistake of just handing players my whole multi-page setting document and telling them they can read as much or as little of it as they want, which inevitably led to them reading nothing because they felt overloaded. I don't want to do that here, so I want to get a better sense of what's reasonable to offer. Right now, I have a two-page primer, plus a few pieces of artwork that I think give a good sense of the aesthetic I have in mind; I feel like it's a good length and density, covering the background stuff that would be hard to work in elegantly at the table without being too much. How would you feel if your GM offered you something like that? To be clear, I don't want to insist that they read it and know everything in it before the game--this would be strictly at their discretion, for their benefit in coming up with characters (though it would be awfully convenient for me if they all chose to read it).

[Mr Beer]

I would read a 2 page primer with artwork included and it's the right length for me. One caveat, that's assuming its well written. Post it here if you like, people can tell you whether it hooks them in or not, and can probably provide feedback for improvement.

[BWR]

The right amount depends on the people in question. Some people will happily read a campaign setting guide cover to cover before a game and some basically need it spoonfed to them in play. Even more annoying, they can be the same people, depending on how they feel at the moment and/or how busy they are outside of game night. I don't think a two page introduction is too much to ask of people, but even then there will be those who don't read that. If you really want people to pay attention to that two-page introduction, read it aloud at character creation/session zero, and make a document for people to read to clear up common questions.

[LordCdrMilitant]

I verbally give a general description to them. Then, I give a few paragraphs later, and maybe a map outline, covering the major polities and who lives there. Then, I take what them come up with for their backstories and incorporate it.

[Nifft]

IMHO the rule is simple:

You want to give your players enough info that they are making informed decisions.


But this begs a certain question: What sort of decisions are your players going to be making during the first session?

Perhaps they won't be making many important decisions at all for the first few sessions.

[BlizzardSucks80]

I think that is a fabulous idea. I think I will do something similar in the future for my players. Thank you

[Pelle]

Write no more than you need so the players will actually read it. Two pages is nice and should be the maximum. Then you can print it double sided on one piece of paper and hand it out. Should preferably also include character creation guidelines and a couple of illustrations/maps.

[hymer]

I like the Wiki solution. There is a short introduction, which is all the players should need to know. And then there are links in the text (as well as an index somewhere, of course), which gets you to pages that go into details. Then people can read up on what they find relevant (say religion for clerics, or the social structure for nobles). And then you put up synopses of the sessions on the wiki page, and include links in those texts as well. Some of my players don't read anything, and rely on checks made by their characters, or what the other players can tell them. Others are more patient/curious, and they read more.

[Grim Portent]

Pre-game I feel the most important stuff is the broad strokes of the societies PCs can come from and a bit about how they treat things like war/magic/honour and so on, stuff relevant to making PCs fit the world primarily. A couple sentences per area is all it really takes, they can get a more in depth description of their immediate surroundings during the first few sessions and have the other areas described in greater detail when they encounter them.

EDIT: Oh, also the broad strokes of religions should be presented. Someone might want to be a priest, or a heretic or something.

[Geddy2112]

I strive to keep it to 2 pages. If I have shot over, I have probably bloated it.

I try to present the world overview and anything that would be common knowledge in the world. I also present the general pitch or starting adventure hook, as well as a base map.

[Hunter Noventa]

I strive to keep it to 2 pages. If I have shot over, I have probably bloated it.

I try to present the world overview and anything that would be common knowledge in the world. I also present the general pitch or starting adventure hook, as well as a base map.

That sounds like a reasonable amount to cover. My DM tends to go a bit longer, but we've been gaming with him for years so he knows us.

The other major thing to cover is anything that's different in the setting from the norms of the system it's built on. Does certain magic work differently? Does a certain race act differently or is present in differing numbers (Are dwarves nearly extinct? Are elves excessively xenophilic?). Those are things that should be covered. In some cases it might necessitate a 'rules' document and a 'setting' document.

[GrayDeath]

Unless its a special type of adventure (say all come from the same City and its a mystery Story or somesuch) I usually keep it to:

Stuff everybody in the world knows (Major Gods,, Color of the Sun, major Races etc)
Stuff almost everybody knows ( Form of the Planet/COntinent, local History with broad strokes)
Race/Class/etc specific Stuff (Who fhnded the Wizards Academy, what Druid createsd the Evermore Forest, What Legends are there about Excalibur)

and some fluff.


If players are curious, they can ask more.

(Attention, once upon a time I also was guilty of flooding them with too much info, I ahve learned since then ^^)

[Jay R]

It depends on several variables. But we need to remember that it is a series of game-focused decisions. It has nothing to do with how much we want to show off our settings.

The players need to have any information needed to create characters, and any background information that will be needed to make decisions while playing. So, for instance, if there are no elves in this world, they need to know that before they design an elf character. If necromancy is banned is the biggest kingdom, they should know that when deciding what spells to choose. Similarly, if two kingdoms are at war over whether slavery should be legal, they need to know which ports will be open to them if they capture a slaver's ship.

But they shouldn't be told details of the setting that are generally unknown, unless they discover them in the course of their adventures. This means that they don't need that fascinating back-story you wrote for the lost island, no matter how proud of it you are.

Also, you can modularize it. In my last game, I gave them four pages on setting-specific background needed to create characters. They all needed that.

Separately, I sent them the description of the gods and the cosmology. I assume that two or three out of six players read that. And I had more detail on the gods given to just the cleric player.

And I occasionally give the bard information on history. About a third of those stories have any bearing on their upcoming adventures.

[Pelle]

Unless its a special type of adventure (say all come from the same City and its a mystery Story or somesuch) I usually keep it to:

Stuff everybody in the world knows (Major Gods,, Color of the Sun, major Races etc)
Stuff almost everybody knows ( Form of the Planet/COntinent, local History with broad strokes)
Race/Class/etc specific Stuff (Who fhnded the Wizards Academy, what Druid createsd the Evermore Forest, What Legends are there about Excalibur)

and some fluff.


If players are curious, they can ask more.

(Attention, once upon a time I also was guilty of flooding them with too much info, I ahve learned since then ^^)

The above still sounds quite excessive though, how many pages do you end up with? Do all the players really need to know who founded the Wizards Academy in order to create a character? You could rather tell the player of a wizard character during play.

I like trying to imply setting details without being too explicit, players can (usually) think for themselves. Like mentioning briefly as a matter of fact in a sentence in the adventure hook that there is a festival for Zeus happening. Then everyone knows the Greek pantheon is used, in case someone wants to play a cleric etc, and I don't need to spell out every potential diety.

[2D8HP]

I'm gonna be running a game for my long-standing group soon, in a setting of my own creation. We've already talked about the general concept, and some of my inspirations for the idea, so they know the basics of what to expect. However, I want to give them a little more detail before we sit down for our session 0[....]

First of all, kudos on having one of those "Session Zero's" that legends speak of.

Otherwise, what sort of setting does the game have?

Myself, I've GM'd A/D&D with a generic "Fantasyland" setting (basically a Conan.and Sword of Sorcery comic books, and the Hobbit cartoon of the 1970's mash-up

Spoiler: If you don't know what I mean

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) and I never bothered with a setting "history" for the players to study.

Call of C'thullu was just the 1920's with hidden monsters, so no studying either.

Traveller I did as "planet of the week" so exploring the setting in play was part of the fun, so no homework either.

A typical start would be:

"A shadow passes over you, as you look up you see a Dragon passing overhead",

"What do you do?

That's about it usually

No lengthy setting history essays.

No big lists of nationalities and social classes

Unless I tell you otherwise PC's are ignorant/isolated farm kids ala Luke Skywalker/Percival newly arrived from the land of Generica (part of the Nondescriptian Empire), in an unfamiluar land were they somehow understand the language (except when they don't!), and have them learn about the world through NPC's.

If there's backstory, unless it's a map, journal etc.that a PC finds I try to not give a handout!

Oracles, street prophets, and witches will give voice to the backstory in character (hopefully).

1)Make up or steal find a scene that looks like it will be fun/exciting.
2) Listen to what the players say.
3) Have them roll some dice for suspense.
4) Tell the players what changed in the scene.
5) Repeat
"Your at the entrance of the Tomb of Blaarg what do you do?" If they're real contrary "Your inside the Tomb of Blaarg, what do you do?, or "your trapped deep inside the Tomb of Blaarg" etc. Just quickly narrate to the part where the actual adventure begins. They can role-play how they turned tail and ran back to the tavern.

For a crash course inbad DM/player interaction see DM of the Rings
While much of the fun of DM'ing is in making a world (the other part is witnessing the PC's shenanigans), I try to keep world building bare bones. It's usually more fun to read, then to play. When the players start to get jaded, then maybe introduce "exotic", "innovative", and "weird" elements, but usually at first freaky "Alice in Wonderland on LSD" "adventures" are not fun for me!

One of the most successful (i.e. my players liked it) "campaigns" that I DM'd/Keeper'd (I reused the same setup for both Call of Cthullu and Dungeons & Dragons) was a mashup of the plot set-ups of "Conan the Destroyer" and "Young Sherlock Holmes" (cultist, Elder gods, yadda, yadda, yadda), I didn't map anything out on paper before hand at all! I just imagined "scenes", described them to my players, and had them roll dice to see if they did whatever they were trying to do, then on to the next scene!
As a player I prefer Swords and Sorcery settings, but I can remember some particularly fun sessions of Shadowrun that had no fantasy elements at all. The trick was that a very good gamemaster amped up the roll-playing aspects, and downplayed the role-playing aspects, with lots of action and suspense, resolved by many dice rolls (a chase were you roll at each corner or notable landmark lends itself well with this approach).

Other times that I've had a lot of fun involved lots of described magical elements and dialog, and almost no dice rolls at all. More boring RPG sessions seem to involve an intermediate amount of dialog (role-playing), and action resolved with dice rolls (roll-playing). So I would advise GM's to stay away from a "middle-of-the-road" approch, and to stick with what's working at the time. If the action is flowing keep the dice rolling, if the players are "playing" (doing the thespian thing), only stop them to roll dice for the suspense of it, otherwise keep 'em talking.

As a player, sure some guidance on what sorts of PC's will fit the game would be nice, but when I ask they usually start on "10,000 years ago a great meeting was held on the continent of...." and I'm zzzzzz.

You know how it oft said that most Americans can't find most nations on a map, or even other states?

Don't give "macro" details.

Instead tell of the village where the PC came from, the name of the fishmonger that the PC's fisherman family sold their catch to, not the name of the freaking ocean they got the fish from!

Small details help build characters, big grand "5,000 years ago the armies of Argle-Bargle invaded the lands of Generica" don't help much

That said, I still get carried away with worldbuilding, and wind up doing:

Spoiler: stuff like this

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Far to the West the land descends gently into swirling mists, several rivers run to it, and the closer one gets to the mists the louder the sound of rushing water becomes.

The mists are known in many tongues both as "Worlds Edge" and "Will to Live" as for centuries there are records of the despondent, and the bold vowing to either walk down into the mists or explore what's in the distance down the hills, but all of them are recorded to have turned back.

It is also noted how relatively prosperous, healthy amd happy are those in the lands that border the mists are, and it is also noted that until recently few lived near the mists, with most families being only a few generations old despite fertile farmland being near the mists. Both those families that have newly arrived, and those that have been longer have had more births in the last 20 years than those families have had before, with each year there being more births.

Within a days journey of the mists the differences between those who live near Worlds Edge/Will to Live and those who don"t, is apparent, and then first gradually, then quite abruptly, those differences dissipate the further from the mists one goes.

Strangely, the population is less dense the more days journey from the mists one travels until about four days out, it becomes quite crowded and gradually less so the further east from the mists one travels. While being less crowded with people, it is clear that the further east from the mists one travels, the older buildings appear to be, and most families, and even nations have histories of travelling west, few of migrating east.

Quite alarmingly, more and more around the world have just this year have decided that they either "Have nothing more to live for", or "Want to be the first to solve the mystery of the mists" and are journeying west to either end their lives inside the mists, or explore what's is past the point one may see, but so far no one has yet done so, just as they have not for centuries.

Some Sages have proposed a reason for these anomalies:

When one goes into the mists, one ends not just your existence in the present, but that you ever existed at all.

There is no proof for this whatsoever.

But if I can do it via an

Spoiler: NPC speaking in-character...

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My theories aren't crazy at all!
Just because those blind fools at the Mages Guild roll their eyes, and won't admit the truth!
I'll show them! All show them all!

First, the half-elves, and half-orcs among us show that elves, humans, and orcs are in fact the same species!
Humans are actually descendents of long ago Elves and Orcs.
Don't walk away! In your hart you know it's true!

Also the reason Elves have low light vision like Dwarves and Gnomes, is because they too originally lived underground. Clearly these rumors of "Dark Elves", sometimes called "Drow", point towards the inescapable conclusion that "surface" Elves are in fact descended from Elves who were exiled from the Underdark because they were insufficiently badass! And in fact the day star bleached them! That is why Wood Elves who lived under the shade of their forest homes are darker hued. Either that or the reliance on magic among the so called "high elves", makes them both lazy and pasty!

In fact this overuse of Magic by some may doom us all!
The ruins of the Ancients all around, in the wastelands and underground shows the truth!
Long ago the Elves
used up all the magic causing the fall of their civilization!

Overuse of Magic in one place leeches the Mana from the Earh, leaving desolate wastelands in it's absence!
The ancestors of the Elves having squandered all the magic fled underground, with a few remnants learning to survive in a world without magic. Yes humans and orcs! The Orcs who infest the ruins are the savage descendents of the Elves too stupid to leave. We humans are the descendents of those who didn't hide underground, or stupidly stay amongst the ruins, but instead pioneered new lands and made new tools.
Why else would it be humans who invented the crossbow, the plow, sailing ships, and windmills? Only in times without Magic would anyone bother to build such things! That's why so many of us still toil on the land and in our smithies, instead of just learning Wizardry, were not too stupid to learn Spellcraft! Nay, deep in our souls we feel the warning that it can't last!

That is why these tomb robbing Adventurer's have lately been finding magic items littering the ruins. For centuries there was insufficient environmental Mana for those items to be worth picking up!
That is why there are Sorcerers now born among us when previous generations had none!
The return of Magic to the wastelands is why suddenly all these magicsl monsters now infect our lands! Do you think our ancestors could have survived long if they'd always existed?

We have forgotten and grown soft!
We must conserve what Magic is left and learn from the Gnomes ways to make wonders without the Arcane arts. Too much reliance on and use of Wizardry will doom us!

We must learn to grow our on food and distill water, without relying on Create Food and Water Spells, and if these Magic-User's continue to waste the Magic away in trivial goals, we must learn to fight off without spells, the bears, wolves and other beasts that threaten us, else we fall to claws and fangs!

Take these pamphlets and spread the word before it's too late!

The truth is out there.

Heed the warnings!

But my campaign ideas are rather more prosaic and unoriginal,

Spoiler: basically.....

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Your PC's are adolescents and very young adults in an isolated village where two summers ago all the fighting age men, and many of the women left on a "trading" mission, and have not returned, so the elders of the village at a moot in the godshall have some of the you accompany "old Ragnar", a one armed former Viking (who will die of natural causes soon after they set sail) as their guide.

What they find is that nearby they are de-populated and sometimes burned towns with no bodies and little evidence of what happened.

Upon returning home (assuming they do), they find their village simillarly emptied, with cooking fires still smoldering, and in the distance a low thumping sound, like a muffled hammering.

If they seek out the source of the sounds, they find what look to be new wells outside the village, but they see no water at the bottom, and ha hand and foot holds along the sides, and descending and exploring leads them to discover albino "Goblins" leading the enchanted people of their village deeper into the earth, and then....
....well basically the Goblins are the Morlocks in the 1895 Time Machine novella, and the 1960 film, led by albino Drow/Elves not unlike the character played by Jeremy Irons in the 2002 film.

Further exploration by the PC's leads them to find tunnels made by digging machines (like in At The Earth's Core), and locales like in Journey to the Center of the Earth (ruins and dinosaurs!), and a civilization a bit like the Selenites in First Men in the Moon.

Spoiler: Some images that inspired me

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So yeah, I just don't make the setting so exotic that much intro is needed.

"What do you do?

[Faily]

Keep it short and to the point in general, BUT provide extra info to each player individually.

Like the player who is playing a rogue-type character, you can tell them some extra tidbits on how the law works and what the criminal elements tend to center around. The one who is a noble? Give them some info on nobility and the major movers and shakers.

That way, that extra info can feel a bit like story-hooks for the individual players too.

[GrayDeath]

The above still sounds quite excessive though, how many pages do you end up with? Do all the players really need to know who founded the Wizards Academy in order to create a character? You could rather tell the player of a wizard character during play.

That was obviously implied.

I like trying to imply setting details without being too explicit, players can (usually) think for themselves. Like mentioning briefly as a matter of fact in a sentence in the adventure hook that there is a festival for Zeus happening. Then everyone knows the Greek pantheon is used, in case someone wants to play a cleric etc, and I don't need to spell out every potential diety.

Sorry, that usually leads to a lot of confusion if/when deities are important.

Again, unless its a specific kind of story, for example one where just about noone knows of the gods, these things should be easy to get to know or even common knowledge.

As for the question: varies.
In my most complex setting the above would make up around 2-3 pages for the first 2, and another for the Class/Character specific stuff.
Any player who isnt willing to read that much makes me doubt his comittment to anything more than 2-3 sessions (our groups tend to play LONG or one shots).

[Cosi]

One thing to bear in mind is that your players probably don't care as much about your setting as you do. You've put a lot of effort in, and included all your favorite stuff. They haven't, and are likely less invested. Also, be clear about whether the infodump they get is in-world or not.

In particularly, they probably don't care much about stuff that doesn't effect their characters. Whatever setting stuff you give out at the beginning of the game should be disproportionately tilted towards stuff in the area where the game is starting. The setting as a whole doesn't need more than a tagline and an explanatory paragraph or two.

However, there are definitely players who will read however much material you happen to give them. In general, I agree with the sentiment that you should have a ~2 page (probably less than a page of high level information and more than a page of low level detail) primary document, and then give the players access to however much additional material you feel is appropriate. Also, if you're using any new or obscure terms the characters would know but the players might not, have a glossary printed.

[Jay R]

There is no general answer. You need the unique answer for your players at your table. How much you should give them is based entirely on who the players are and how much of your writing they want to read. Any set number of pages given by people who don't know your players should be ignored.

My last game had seven players, including two paralegals, two tech writers, and a history teacher. I gave them several pages, and they read it all. That would be too much for a different group of players.

So you'll have to answer it yourself. I recommend that you base it on the answers to these questions:

1. How much will your players want to read?
2. How much information do they need to enjoy playing in your world?

[Pelle]

That was obviously implied.

Allright, since it was talk about a setting document handed out to the players before character generation, it was unclear to me. No one needs to know who founded the wizard academy in order to choose to play a wizard, so I would keep it out of the first document. Unless it is relevant for the game, I don't think the wizard player need to know either, and wouldn't ask the player to read it if he don't want.

Sorry, that usually leads to a lot of confusion if/when deities are important.

Again, unless its a specific kind of story, for example one where just about noone knows of the gods, these things should be easy to get to know or even common knowledge.

Depends on the group I think. If their expectation is a kitchen sink setting where every printed option is available, then sure, it could lead to confusion. If not, I don't think it's a problem. You don't need to be specific about everything, just to make the players have the right expectations. If they want to play a cleric they can ask more, but will probably already have enough to make the decision and know which questions to ask (assuming they are familiar with Greek mythology).

Very little of common knowledge should be explicitly included, just the few thing that are important to make a character. All common knowledge can be informed of in play when the players need it, by just assuming that all characters know it.

As for the question: varies.
In my most complex setting the above would make up around 2-3 pages for the first 2, and another for the Class/Character specific stuff.
Any player who isnt willing to read that much makes me doubt his comittment to anything more than 2-3 sessions (our groups tend to play LONG or one shots).

Fair enough.

There is no general answer. You need the unique answer for your players at your table. How much you should give them is based entirely on who the players are and how much of your writing they want to read. Any set number of pages given by people who don't know your players should be ignored.

Even though you only have players who will read a lot, I still think it's good to structure it so you have max 2 pages that everyone should read (first), like an executive summary. Providing additional material is not a problem, but it doesn't hurt either way to indicate to the players which information is essential to know.

[Quertus]

Stuff almost everybody knows ( Form of the Planet/COntinent, local History with broad strokes)

Almost everyone knows the form of the planet?

The players need to have any information needed to create characters, and any background information that will be needed to make decisions while playing. But they shouldn't be told details of the setting that are generally unknown,

There is no general answer. You need the unique answer for your players at your table. How much you should give them is based entirely on who the players are and how much of your writing they want to read. 1. How much will your players want to read?
2. How much information do they need to enjoy playing in your world?

Agreed. Although I suppose I'd focus less on how much they want, and instead on how much they need. If they need more than they want to read, choose (or supplement with) an alternate delivery method.

[Cluedrew]

The minimum is what people need to know to start the game, the maximum is how much people are willing to read. If you can't hit that range you can either lower the minimum (more standard setting, start in a more standard part of the setting or with ignorant characters) or raise the maximum (good formatting and pictures can sometimes make something seem shorter).

Although which of these tricks works depends on group and campaign. Most of it has been said before, I think the only thing I should call out is that sometimes if you put work into a information document you can make it easier to read.

[Jay R]

Even though you only have players who will read a lot, I still think it's good to structure it so you have max 2 pages that everyone should read (first), like an executive summary. Providing additional material is not a problem, but it doesn't hurt either way to indicate to the players which information is essential to know.

For all I know, you may be right. But as long as my players don't complain, seem to enjoy it, used it to make successful characters, and even occasionally quote favorite lines from it several years later, I have to assume it was probably OK as is.

[Beleriphon]

I have a wiki for my setting (see my signature). It basically gives a two or three paragraphs for relevant stuff, races classes, religions, the setting, a few prominent NPCs. Some things have more since I gave them a bit more thought at some point. The main idea is to give players enough material to make decisions about their characters. For example the wizard section has reference to a university (with a name) and a link to a few paragraphs about the university which links back to the wizard, and the bard. So my idea was to build a series of linked references so players could use that as inspiration about how their characters might know each other.

[Yora]

I'm in love with the Star Wars approach: A short opening crawl before character creation and then start the campaign with an adventure that shows of many of the major factions and special abilities and technologies that define the setting.

Giving the players enough information to get them to make characters that actually reflect the specifics of the setting is basicially impossible. You can write it, but many of them won't read it anyway. Unless you specifically tell them the game is set in fantasy Japan, one of them will make a character who is Sir John.

[Jay R]

Giving the players enough information to get them to make characters that actually reflect the specifics of the setting is basicially impossible. You can write it, but many of them won't read it anyway. Unless you specifically tell them the game is set in fantasy Japan, one of them will make a character who is Sir John.

Again and again, that depends on way too many variables -- how much they will read of your writing, how much they need to know to reflect the specifics of your setting, how deeply they want to reflect your setting.

The guy who just wants a fighter called "Bob the ogre-slayer" only needs to know that ogres exist.

Somebody going for a hero who frees slaves needs to know that slaves exist, and there is some place you can take them where they will be free. She may need to know a little about those places.
Somebody who usually plays elves needs to know that elves don't exist.

That may be all they need, and all they will read. Meanwhile, another player wants to know about the village he grow up in, why he was cast out, how the kingdom is organized, etc.

There is no general rule for how much you need to give them that applies to all players.
There is no general rule for how much they need to know that applies to all setting.
There is not even any general rule for how much they will read that applies to all players, and to all writers.

You really have to solve this for your specific world, your specific players, and your specific writings.

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Sometime I want to start a player with absolutely no information at all.

"OK, you wake up with a headache. You don't know where you are, what you did last night, where your clothes are, who this person in bed with you is, or why they're dead."