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  1. - Top - End - #571
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    Default Re: What is V's gender

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    Ah, ok. That part of the problem is over, then.
    (Now I wonder from where I got the impression it worked the other way around... )
    Grammarians that implied the verbs were conjugated for the singular/plural and not the pronouns they were attached to? It's not the weirdest confusion to have. "Sally is like this," "she is like this," "they are like this." But using they with the singular conjugations is awkward enough that, thankfully, it's generally accepted that you can just keep the plural conjugation.
    Last edited by georgie_leech; 2018-07-11 at 12:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    We should try to make that a thing; I think it might help civility. Hey, GitP, let's try to make this a thing: when you're arguing optimization strategies, RAW-logic, and similar such things that you'd never actually use in a game, tag your post [THEORETICAL] and/or use green text
    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    So a ranger is like a Bachelor of Applied Druidology.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Jake View Post
    What's the word for 'fear of being eaten by a mounted bear in half-plate' again? Because that's the one I have.

  2. - Top - End - #572
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    Default Re: What is V's gender

    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    "Sally is like this," "she is like this," "they are like this."
    They’s like that sometimes, though.

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    Default Re: What is V's gender

    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    Grammarians that implied the verbs were conjugated for the tense and not the pronouns they were attached to?
    Did you confuse tense and person? Verbs absolutely conjugate according to tense:
    Sally is like this now, she was like that last week. They are like this now, they were like that last week.
    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    FANTASTIC! OotS-ish even in the punchline.
    "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    For people who say "they're just words, toughen up," y'all seem to have very strong reactions to a bunch of words on a forum and webcomic.

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    Default Re: What is V's gender

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Did you confuse tense and person? Verbs absolutely conjugate according to tense:
    Sally is like this now, she was like that last week. They are like this now, they were like that last week.
    Yes, yes I did. Oops.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    We should try to make that a thing; I think it might help civility. Hey, GitP, let's try to make this a thing: when you're arguing optimization strategies, RAW-logic, and similar such things that you'd never actually use in a game, tag your post [THEORETICAL] and/or use green text
    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    So a ranger is like a Bachelor of Applied Druidology.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Jake View Post
    What's the word for 'fear of being eaten by a mounted bear in half-plate' again? Because that's the one I have.

  5. - Top - End - #575
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    Default Re: What is V's gender

    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    Um... "they" is often used as a genderless singular pronoun even for non-non-binary people. And it's common enough in usage to pop up in the Oxford and Meriam-Webster dictionaries. And pops up in works by notable authors like Austen or Shakespeare.
    I agree it is (and has been for some time) used in certain contexts (usually when the individual being referred to has not been identified), but I do not believe that it is so commonly used in other senses, like the examples Tiefling and I gave.

    If one were to say "Georgie ate a pie, then they went to the movies", I think many (if not most) listeners would jump to the conclusion that Georgie went to the movies with others, because that is the more common use of the word in that context. Another example, "Georgie arrived home and now they have cake" I think would usually be understood to mean that the people you arrived home to have cake because your brought some, not that you arrived home and ate the cake there alone.

    Do you think that the use of 'they' to mean more than one person is natural for most people in that context? Or were you just referring to the context of using 'they' to refer to a particular known individual.

    I get that it may be correct grammatically, but do you think that is how most people use and understand the language?
    Last edited by Liquor Box; 2018-07-11 at 04:59 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #576
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    Default Re: What is V's gender

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    If one were to say "Georgie ate a pie, then they went to the movies", I think many (if not most) listeners would jump to the conclusion that Georgie went to the movies with others, because that is the more common use of the word in that context. Another example, "Georgie arrived home and now they have cake" I think would usually be understood to mean that the people you arrived home to have cake because your brought some, not that you arrived home and ate the cake there alone.

    Do you think that the use of 'they' to mean more than one person is natural for most people in that context? Or were you just referring to the context of using 'they' to refer to a particular known individual.
    I think singular "they" sounds less strange in cases where you don't know the name of a person. "The doctor ate a pie, then they went to the movies" and "The lawyer arrived home and now they have cake" sound much less strange, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylian View Post
    I think singular "they" sounds less strange in cases where you don't know the name of a person. "The doctor ate a pie, then they went to the movies" and "The lawyer arrived home and now they have cake" sound much less strange, right?
    I agree, I do think that sounds less strange, but I wonder if that is because I think of the doctor as being a generic person (ie, it could be anybody whose a doctor) rather than a specific identified person.

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    Default Re: What is V's gender

    It can be confusing, but I don't think he is any better in that regard. "Georgie ate a pie, then he went to the movies" sounds out-of-context like you know Georgie to be male. Specific gender-neutral pronouns would be clearer if the public in general knew and accepted them. And, to be honest, I've never liked xe or ze. I don't think it's any surprise they haven't caught on.

  9. - Top - End - #579
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fincher View Post
    It can be confusing, but I don't think he is any better in that regard. "Georgie ate a pie, then he went to the movies" sounds out-of-context like you know Georgie to be male. Specific gender-neutral pronouns would be clearer if the public in general knew and accepted them. And, to be honest, I've never liked xe or ze. I don't think it's any surprise they haven't caught on.
    If I am understanding you correctly, I completely agree.

  10. - Top - End - #580
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxford English Dictionary entry for 'They', September 2013
    2. In anaphoric reference to a singular noun or pronoun of undetermined gender: he or she.
    Some people keep asserting that this usage is somehow new. Fortunately, OED is a real scholarly publication, and so we can see the complete revision history of each entry. In the case of "they," they have:
    Quote Originally Posted by OED 2nd edition entry for 'They', 1989
    2. Often used in reference to a singular noun made universal by every, any, no, etc., or applicable to one of either sex (= ‘he or she’).
    ...
    3. a. As indefinite pronoun: People in general; any persons, not including the speaker; people. (Cf. one pron. 21, and OE. man, ME. men, me, G. man, F. on.) Often in phrase they say = people say, it is said.
    Last edited by 137ben; 2018-07-12 at 01:23 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #581
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    Default Re: What is V's gender

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    "Wasn't well known"? I'm sorry, it has been in regular use since at least middle English. I learnt about it in school well over 20 years ago.

    GW
    Read about 5-10 posts above yours for multiple examples of people from 2003 not using "they" and instead defaulting to he, using he/she, or even using "it" to refer to Vaarsuvius' ambiguous gender. The evidence you asked for was there before you asked for it.

  12. - Top - End - #582
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    Default Re: What is V's gender

    I was taught that in English the masculine form was universal, and the feminine form specific when using singular pronouns.

    In other words, 'he' is both gender-specific for a male and gender indefinate referring to anyone, while 'she' applies only to a female.

    Formally, 'he' is the proper singular pronoun to use when gender is ambiguous or unknown.

    Nobody speaks, and very few people write Formal English. This is nothing new. No one has ever spoken Formal English, which is a German language forced through a Latin seive, and very few have written it since a bunch of monks and priests invented it.

    Imagine a world in which people say, "This is the window through which the ball was thrown!" Native speakers have no issue saying, "This is the window the ball was thrown through," which would result in a red mark on your English paper.

    English originated as a poetic language, maleable and mutable by design. Look at what Rappers do with it, for example. Priests trained in the highly formalized version of Latin that survived the Fall of Rome shoved English into a box of Latin grammar when they began using the Roman alphabet to write in English, and grade school kids have been dealing with a ruleset that is not-quite-right for the language ever since.

    But the English language is mutable. It has no problem absorbing new words and concepts, but it takes time. Those of us who were taught certain useages in grade school have to die off and give the stage to those taught the new words and concepts. I know this is not sufficient for those who want Pronoun Neutrality Now, but it is how it is.

    So keep searching for cool new genderless singular pronouns. I hear the Scandinavians have one. Adopt the one you like and use it. Get celebrities to use it. It may not see common useage before you get the Final Exam, but your kids will have to use it properly or get a red mark in English.

  13. - Top - End - #583
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    Default Re: What is V's gender

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    Imagine a world in which people say, "This is the window through which the ball was thrown!" Native speakers have no issue saying, "This is the window the ball was thrown through," which would result in a red mark on your English paper.
    It wouldn't get a red mark. Except maybe for the passive voice.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2018-07-12 at 07:56 AM.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking).

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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

  14. - Top - End - #584
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    Default Re: What is V's gender



    On the question, The Giant has already supplied the answers:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    You address or refer to a transgendered person by the pronoun appropriate to the gender they have become. So a woman who becomes a man is "he/him/his"..

    Personal experience has shown that in regular conversation, these tend to be preceeded by a pause every time as you force yourself to use the right one. It's kind of difficult when you've known the person for years, too.
    (From 2004)


    Quote Originally Posted by IonStorm View Post
    Lessons learned from #178:

    1. Since V can cast spells in lizard form without somatic components, but with verbal ones, s/he must have the silent spell feat....

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    ...In OOTS land, you just need to be able to speak the name of the spell to count as a verbal component. It doesn't matter what language that name is in. V is speaking Lizardese, but he can still say "Feather Fall" He does not know the Silent Spell feat....

    Quote Originally Posted by Vik View Post
    So, are you telling us that you see V' as a male ? :P
    Welcome to the Place for over-analysis, Rich ;D

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    I'm saying that the English language often uses "he" for the pronoun when no gender is specifically known.
    (from 2005)


    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Wow, you know what would be fun? If this thread was about the topic it started on instead of grammar descriptionists vs. prescriptionists concerning gender neutral singular pronouns. That would be super rad.
    (from 2013)


    I've already cited at least twice when Mr. Burlew decides to make Vaarsuvius "ambiguous", but
    Spoiler: here it is again
    Show
    :
    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mariele View Post
    Has nobody else pointed that out??.

    Yes they have.

    Besides this thread, it's been a long debate.

    Let's see what was posted in 2003:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogotter View Post
    LOL!

    Good comic.

    Reminds me of when James Bull, the minotaur, was turned into a woman by one of those!

    Question though.....I've been thinking this whole time that Vaarsuvius was a female.....but in this last strip he/she was called V-man.

    So Vaarsuvius is a guy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlock View Post
    Yeah? Not sure how you can tell, but I assumed he was male, too. Maybe the name? Nahh...he just seemed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogotter View Post
    I thought it was a girl though. I was thinking of Vaarsuvius as a Velma type from Scooby Doo....the book wormy type girl. In episode 3 Haley was talking to Vaarsuvius about the color of her boots....for some reason I thought Haley was trying to talk with the only other female in the party about style and how they didn't match. That's what made it funny to me.....when Vaarsuvius couldn't relate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daveric View Post
    It's not that hard to figure out which of the characters are male and female (although some are tricky). It's just a matter of looking for Rich's carefully added in features. (usually a bit of cleavage, long hair, or showing of the belly button) ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    I have no problem with Vaarsuvius' sex being ambiguous. He/she is an elf, after all.

    All you can infer from the last strip is that *Roy* thinks Vaarsuvious is male. ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogotter View Post
    Cool.....I like that you didn't tell us either way. That way I can keep the same image in my head that she is female.....at least for the time being!

    Do you like how I even had to quote her diaglogue from a specific strip number? You know it's doing well when people are quoting the strip and reciting episode numbers!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlock View Post
    Hey! As a long-haired guy, I resent that! >:( ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by RawBearNYC View Post
    It's PAT!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogotter View Post
    So what would happen if Pat (or Vaarsuvius) put on the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity? Hmmmmm?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Daveric, I would point out that your OWN AVATAR has long hair. So :P.

    Quote Originally Posted by RawBearNYC View Post
    Sorry, Bogotter, I don't know if Rich was using these when you guys played years ago, but he's been using stick figure minis against us for a while, and i've come to learn that all of his female avatars have apparent breasts.

    If you take a gander at http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb...num=1060497491 you'll notice this. Even the Dwarven Female in full plate has them :) Varsuvvius has a rectangular torso, he's a dude :P

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    You don't know that. You are only drawing that conclusion based on previous examples. For all you know, I deliberately decided to create a sexually-ambiguous elf; in such a circumstance, I would clearly break my own "rules"; on how I drew them. :P

    And from 2004:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    I will neither confirm nor deny.Vaarsuvius' gender at this time. I am the Lord of Illusions

    From 2011:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FujinAkari View Post
    If you don't want to believe that's what happened, that's fine, but it will remain the de facto explanation until someone presents supporting evidence refuting it :)
    Oooo! Oooo! Can I?

    The first time I heard someone question whether V was male or female was right after I posted my first strip. A friend of mine asked me about it; at the time, I simply answered. Luckily for me, that friend has not chosen to reveal what I said then to the world.

    At the time of the lime green boots strip, there was a thread separate from the main discussion thread where someone said how nice it was to see two women adventurers who were so different from one another as V and Haley. Brief debate followed, but there were very few posters in those days. I don't think it made it to 12 posts.

    By the comic with the belt, I was aware enough of the confusion that I had already taken a poll among an IRC gaming group I was in at the time and asked them what gender they thought he/she was, and the results were split: 4 thought V was a woman, 2 thought V was a man. So I decided to swing the perception the other way with my next strip.

    Which leads us to...
    Quote Originally Posted by FujinAkari View Post
    I also note you didn't address the biggest flaw in your premise: If the Giant introduced the "V-man" reference to spark gender confusion, why did he do it in such a terrible manner? You don't spark confusion by having one character blatantly refer to a character as male and every other character silently agree without comment.
    Sure, if you're a good writer. I, on the other hand, was a very very bad writer back then. And also I could not have imagined that my choices (much less my message board posts) would be picked apart like this 8 years later. I thought it would confuse half my 50 or so readers, and that amused me. At the time, that was enough reason to do it. Remember, there was no intent to have any sort of plot until a few strips after that. My post in the thread at the time was my way of acknowledging that I wasn't going to answer the question, nothing more.

    My biggest mistake was thinking that the majority-view in my 6-person poll was analogous to what the majority of the readers at the time thought or would think in the future. In hindsight, rather than trying to shift the perception the other way, I should have shifted it toward neutral, as I did in later strips. (Incidentally, it's because I now recognize that it is bad writing to have introduced the ambiguity that way that I am bothering to respond to this. It bugs me that I didn't do it more organically than that, and I don't like anyone using the fact that I was bad at doing something as proof that I must not have meant to do it.)

    OK, question asked, answer given.

    Now I think I may go answer some other threads randomly, because if I've already opened my mouth and spilled stuff that I'll probably regret later, I might as well do it some more.

    From 2013:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    You do realize that there's no narrative reason for V's children to be adopted except to raise the possibility that it's a gay or lesbian marriage, right? I mean, if I wanted to eliminate that as one of the potential options, I would simply have to have made their children biologically theirs. Which would have taken no explanation at all. And which I did not do.

    And that's all I'm going to say about that.

    The Giant made Vaarsuvius "ambiguous" very early on, there are no "smoking guns", and when they're "found" the response is:

    From 2005:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Could be a typo. ;)


    Quote Originally Posted by SPoD View Post
    I was pretty sure I had heard the Giant tell that story before, possibly at a convention, but without proof I was just relying on my foggy memory. At least it's in writing now, so no one will ever have to have this exact argument again.
    ... and that didn't happen:

    (From 2017):
    Quote Originally Posted by Fey View Post

    The "debate" is over 15 years old, and the debate preceded Burlew's making "Vaarsuvius' sex being ambiguous. He/she is an elf, after all.", which has been the state of the character since 2003, they're no "smoking guns" left to be found.

    What V "really is" is in the minds of the author (who's been very consistent), and each reader.
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  15. - Top - End - #585
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    Default Re: What is V's gender

    LEt's see, went to school well after 1400, beginning in the 1960's.
    They was plural pronoun only in English.
    Went to college in 70's.
    Same.
    Writing monographs in the 90's.
    Same.

    Having learned a couple of foreign languages in between, it was one of those things that I used to ask about, why we did not have a neuter pronoun beyond "it" ...

    I began seeing they used more commonly to replace a singular gendered pronoun only in the 00's.

    The exceptions being cited are just that, exceptions, but usage does change/morph over time. It is definitely, as I see things written these days, far more applied and accepted now.
    Such is English.
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    Default Re: What is V's gender

    Maybe 'elf' is just a gender identity, or his gender is an untranslatable word. In a lot of games I've been in, Correllon was androgynous and elves just are either fuzzy on the issue or just have more genders.

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    English originated as a poetic language, maleable and mutable by design.
    It did? I was always taught that English was a trade pidgin that evolved so people knew exactly what they were doing and for how much, giving rise to a language that is useful but not necessarily the prettiest and prone to kleptomania.
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    Man, I like this tiefling.
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  18. - Top - End - #588
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    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    But the English language is mutable. It has no problem absorbing new words and concepts, but it takes time. Those of us who were taught certain useages in grade school have to die off and give the stage to those taught the new words and concepts. I know this is not sufficient for those who want Pronoun Neutrality Now, but it is how it is.
    I’m going to respectfully disagree.

    All of us have the ability to learn and grow, and I think we all have the responsibilty to accept that the world is different than what we were taught it was like in grade school.

    Treating others with respect is important. And showing people that you respect them includes using pronouns that demonstrate that respect. And, we are extremely blessed to live in a time and place where we’ve all mostly agreed om a respectful gender nuetral singular pronoun, and that pronoun is “they”.

    I would ask that you consider learning to use that pronoun. You’re going to meet a lot of people in your life who will appreciate your consideration.
    Last edited by Dion; 2018-07-12 at 12:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I’m going to respectfully disagree.

    All of us have the ability to learn and grow, and I think we all have the responsibilty to accept that the world is different than what we were taught it was like in grade school.

    Treating others with respect is important. And showing people that you respect them includes using pronouns that demonstrate that respect. And, we are extremely blessed to live in a time and place where we’ve all mostly agreed om a respectful gender nuetral singular pronoun, and that pronoun is “they”.

    I would ask that you consider learning to use that pronoun. You’re going to meet a lot of people in your life who will appreciate your consideration.
    You are disagreeing with an assertion I did not make. As I said, English is mutable and it changes all the time. I encourage you in your quest to achieve pronoun neutrality. I personally don't expect to live long enough for the usage to be taught in grammer school textbooks, but common useage over time will fix that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    You are disagreeing with an assertion I did not make.
    You made a specific assertion: “Those of us who were taught certain useages in grade school have to die off and give the stage to those taught the new words and concepts.”

    I respectfully disagree with that specific assertion made by you. Nobody is going to wait for anyone to die before allowing the the language to evolve. People have the ability to learn new things. We’re not insects.
    Last edited by Dion; 2018-07-12 at 06:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    It wouldn't get a red mark. Except maybe for the passive voice.
    The difference between the two versions is that the window the ball was thrown through makes the sentence end with a preposition.

    This "rule" is one that was invented by stuffy grammarians who -- as brian said -- wanted English to be more like Latin. It was probably influenced by the form of the word "preposition", which literally means placed before.

    (brian's history is a little out, though. These stuffy grammarians were not priests, and they wrote down their rules about a thousand years after the Roman alphabet was first used for writing English.)

    However, there is no one single authority that gets to lay down the rules for "formal English". The rule against ending sentences against prepositions has been challenged and ridiculed ever since its invention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Norbert View Post
    The difference between the two versions is that the window the ball was thrown through makes the sentence end with a preposition.

    This "rule" is one that was invented by stuffy grammarians who -- as brian said -- wanted English to be more like Latin. It was probably influenced by the form of the word "preposition", which literally means placed before.

    (brian's history is a little out, though. These stuffy grammarians were not priests, and they wrote down their rules about a thousand years after the Roman alphabet was first used for writing English.)

    However, there is no one single authority that gets to lay down the rules for "formal English". The rule against ending sentences against prepositions has been challenged and ridiculed ever since its invention.
    Oh, I am fully aware.
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

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    Default Re: What is V's gender

    I always considered him to be a male.
    "You know nothing, Khadgar!"

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    Default Re: What is V's gender

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    Imagine a world in which people say, "This is the window through which the ball was thrown!" Native speakers have no issue saying, "This is the window the ball was thrown through," which would result in a red mark on your English paper.
    It wouldn't get a red mark. Except maybe for the passive voice.
    It's a wasted opportunity to use the word "defenestration", though.

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    Default Re: What is V's gender

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    It's a wasted opportunity to use the word "defenestration", though.
    If you want to defend defenestration, don't let me stop you.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking).

    Cuthalion makes great avatars. Like my Silver Dragon.
    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

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    Default Re: What is V's gender

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    It's a wasted opportunity to use the word "defenestration", though.
    Defenestration excludes the possibility that the ball was thrown through the window from the outside.

    There are dozens of examples of rules of Formal English which native English speakers ignore in conversation. Prepositions are just an obvious example. Students often find English a difficult subject to study because so many rules have exceptions and conditions, and because many of these rules are ignored in conversational English.

    The reason for that is the application of the rules of a static, dead language upon an evolving, living one, and then enforcing those rules even as the language grew far beyond anything Latin speakers could ever have imagined.

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    Default Re: Elves and class names

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    [I]"Now the elves of the world must forever live and die and live again, suffering the consequence of their ancestors' poor judgment"
    Did this bit of lore make anyone else think of Fury Road?

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    The reason for that is the application of the rules of a static, dead language upon an evolving, living one, and then enforcing those rules even as the language grew far beyond anything Latin speakers could ever have imagined.
    This got me thinking...Have you ever noticed that Latin is actually a lot like Dracula!?

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    Default Re: What is V's gender

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    Defenestration excludes the possibility that the ball was thrown through the window from the outside.
    Really? It has to be from the inside out? I knew that was commonly used that way, but I didn't know it was actually part of the definition.

    *looks it up*

    Huh. Learn something new every day, I guess.
    "Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman

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    Default Re: What is V's gender

    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    Really? It has to be from the inside out? I knew that was commonly used that way, but I didn't know it was actually part of the definition.

    *looks it up*

    Huh. Learn something new every day, I guess.
    You can tell by the "de-" particle.
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    Default Re: What is V's gender

    Going from the outside in is clearly refenestration.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking).

    Cuthalion makes great avatars. Like my Silver Dragon.
    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

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