Results 61 to 90 of 110
Thread: Vassal of Bahamut
-
2018-06-20, 12:38 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2006
- Location
- NYC
- Gender
Re: Vassal of Bahamut
Cool, thanks for quoting that. It looks like those all advise the DM about how to decide when and if a PC's alignment changes.
It's even got a positive and explicit denial of player control, and confirms that the DM is in control of PC alignment changes.
So, the DMG and the PHB seem to agree about this. I like the lack of dysfunction.
If only all alignment disputes were so easily settled...
Hmm, I guess that normally it's up to players to perform actions which lead to an alignment change, but an actual change happens only when and if the DM decides that it does (per the DMG and PHB).
I think that's how we can make the spell text compatible with the other related rules in the game.
Is there another compatible interpretation?I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
-
2018-06-20, 01:14 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
- Location
- Texas
- Gender
Re: Vassal of Bahamut
No debate necessary. Other characters giving you free buffs ≠ you doing it alone.
You buying potions, paying for spellcasting, etc = you doing it alone. those things are gear. you're using the resources allocated to someone of your level. people aren't just giving you free stuff, or else you could just have a wizard kill the dragon for you while you stood in the corner and made paninis.
What is it with people saying shivering touch is cheesy? What else exactly is that spell supposed to do? It's not shivering touch's fault that dragons are badly designed, weak monsters.Last edited by Venger; 2018-06-20 at 01:14 AM.
I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!
Iron Chef Medals!
Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition
-
2018-06-20, 01:53 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2006
- Location
- NYC
- Gender
Re: Vassal of Bahamut
I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
-
2018-06-20, 05:33 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2010
- Location
- ganiseville GA
- Gender
-
2018-06-20, 06:09 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2014
Re: Vassal of Bahamut
You're kind of an *******, aren't you?
You asked for a citation on player agency. I gave you one. Remember that we're talking about this:
Originally Posted by VengerSpoiler: Collectible nice thingsMy incarnate/crusader. A self-healing crowd-control melee build (ECL 8).
My Ruby Knight Vindicator barsader. A party-buffing melee build (ECL 14).
Doctor Despair's and my all-natural approach to necromancy.
-
2018-06-20, 08:10 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2007
- Location
- Terra Australis
- Gender
Re: Vassal of Bahamut
Just as an FYI, a character could start out as an NG Barbarian to pick up Lion Totem (pounce). If, at some point prior to attaining level 8, he performs consistently lawful actions, there's no real reason he couldn't change to LG over the course of 6 or so levels. You could simply say that once the Barbarian gets a taste of life in civilized lands, his attitude to authority and laws starts to change.
He would retain pounce, even once LG.
Ex-Barbarians
A barbarian who becomes lawful loses the ability to rage and cannot gain more levels as a barbarian. He retains all the other benefits of the class (damage reduction, fast movement, trap sense, and uncanny dodge).[/B]Last edited by Thurbane; 2018-06-20 at 08:14 AM.
My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
Torn-City - Massively multiplayer online browser based crime RPG
-
2018-06-20, 02:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
- Location
- Texas
- Gender
Re: Vassal of Bahamut
Everyone in the thread seems to understand a paladin using his special mount would count as doing it alone. If we're being even remotely consistent about this, then leadership, dragon cohort, etc would count as doing it alone too since you're using the resources your character is allocated and not just getting stuff for free. Again, since earlier on, i had thought this was to be built under iron chef rules, I didn't mention leadership, but since it's been made clear that's not the case, leadership is certainly another valid approach.
We've been assuming til this point that we're using an out of the book, unoptimized juvenile red from the monster manual, so our guy has at least some kind of chance. If the dragon is arbitrarily immune to everything somehow (he has no ability to do that to himself via spells) then nothing we say will work.
Oh, duh, I forgot you didn't lose pounce.
In that case, just transform to LG normally, and take ferocity and you won't lose anything.I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!
Iron Chef Medals!
Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition
-
2018-06-20, 05:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2017
- Location
- ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ
- Gender
Re: Vassal of Bahamut
Couldn't you get another swift through another full-round with a Belt of Battle? Though at that point you could just full attack twice and be done with it.
For the duration problem on wraithstrike: it is quite possible to Extend the spell, although that does require a custom magic item, or some kind of Sudden metamagic that works on potions and doesn't take an action (is there a power component that works with potions?).
-
2018-06-20, 05:03 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
- Location
- Texas
- Gender
Re: Vassal of Bahamut
I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!
Iron Chef Medals!
Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition
-
2018-06-20, 06:18 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
Re: Vassal of Bahamut
It's not so much cheesy as it is remarkably poorly written. The favoured interpretation is that you can do 3d6 dex damage with a touch as many times as you like for the duration. This isn't -at all- the clear or only valid interpretation.
It could be interpreted that you get one touch and must deliver it within the duration. It could be interpreted that the damage is supposed to be a penalty that lasts for the duration.
It's just not a well written spell.I am not seaweed. That's a B.
Praise I've received A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign
Avatar by Tiffanie Lirle
-
2018-06-20, 06:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2014
- Location
- California
- Gender
Re: Vassal of Bahamut
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Handbooks: The Warlockopedia | The Warmagepedia (WIP) | Tier List (2019 Update)
Spreadsheets: Spellcasting classes | Deities | Useful items
Homebrew: Gestalt Theurge | Fighter and Monk fixes | Warlock stuff | Houserules and quick fixes
Original Fiction: The Wizard's Familiar
-
2018-06-20, 06:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
- Gender
Re: Vassal of Bahamut
Honestly, I think it's 100% impossible to win a fair fight vs the dragon.
My suggestion is to go the coup d'grace route. Go Shooting Star Ranger, favored enemy dragon, get your Move Silently skill through the roof, get Darkstalker, get Detect Magic from a Silent source, Spellcraft high enough that you can detect and identify any Alarm spell the Dragon might have cast.
Go in praying to your god that this dragon doesn't have a Mama, Papa, Big brother/sister taking care of him. Hope that the Dragon is asleep (if it isn't, hide until it comes back and sleeps). Hit it with a +1 dragonbane heavy pick forcing a Fort save DC ((2d4+3+4)*4+2d6) (average of 55) which means it only passes on a Nat 20.
You might want a long-living race that doesn't need to sleep (Elf or Warforged, basically).
-
2018-06-20, 07:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
- Location
- Texas
- Gender
Re: Vassal of Bahamut
What do you mean by "fair fight?"
My suggestion is to go the coup d'grace route. Go Shooting Star Ranger, favored enemy dragon, get your Move Silently skill through the roof, get Darkstalker, get Detect Magic from a Silent source, Spellcraft high enough that you can detect and identify any Alarm spell the Dragon might have cast.
Go in praying to your god that this dragon doesn't have a Mama, Papa, Big brother/sister taking care of him. Hope that the Dragon is asleep (if it isn't, hide until it comes back and sleeps). Hit it with a +1 dragonbane heavy pick forcing a Fort save DC ((2d4+3+4)*4+2d6) (average of 55) which means it only passes on a Nat 20.
You might want a long-living race that doesn't need to sleep (Elf or Warforged, basically).I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!
Iron Chef Medals!
Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition
-
2018-06-20, 08:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2007
- Location
- Terra Australis
- Gender
Re: Vassal of Bahamut
Delbert the Dragon Stabber
Ranger 2/Barbarian (Lion Totem) 1/Fighter 4
H Sacred Vow
1 Vow of Obedience
B Track
B Rapid Shot* (or TWF if you plan to stick in light armor; that may free up an extra flighter feat)
3 Bind Vestige
6 Improved Bind Vestige
F1 Improved Initiative
F2 Two-weapon Fighting
F4 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Max ranks in Hide, Move Silently (not enough feat slots to pick up Darkstalker, unless you give up on the vestige feats). Also no room for Able Learner, so you’ll be grabbing some cross class ranks.
Favoured enemy Dragon (duh).
Stabbing with two Arrows of Dragon Slaying. Greater slaying arrows 4057gp each; lesser 2282gp each. -4 attack penalty for using arrows as melee weapons.
ECL 7 character has around 19,000 gp.
(Bane Blind armor is +15,000gp: this makes it unlikely to have this armor property and be able to afford more than one slaying arrow. If not, it would be very useful).
Boots of Elvenkind/Cloak of Elvenkind or similar for sneaking.
If you get the surprise round, you get 4 attacks on a charge. If any hit, dragon is making a DC 23 (or 20) fort save with a +12 bonus (inclusive of Focalor penalty). Each successful hit is a 50% (or 35%) chance of slaying the dragon outright.
If you get the surprise round, you’re quite likely to beat the beast on initiative for the second round, meaning another 4 attacks. Load up on extra arrows of slaying if WBL permits.
It’s pretty stupid/cheesy, and the build won’t be great for VoB (or much else) anyway, but it might work.
The biggest issue is getting a surprise round with the dragon on the ground…Last edited by Thurbane; 2018-06-20 at 09:22 PM.
My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
Torn-City - Massively multiplayer online browser based crime RPG
-
2018-06-20, 08:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
- Gender
Re: Vassal of Bahamut
I love the idea, Thurbane, but I don't think that using arrows as improvised melee weapons gets around the "an arrow that hits its target is destroyed" clause on PHB pg. 114. Regardless of what range you're at, either you're hitting or you're missing, and the rules are black-and-white about what happens to an arrow when you hit with it.
In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
My compiled Iron Chef stuff!
~ Gay all day, queer all year ~
-
2018-06-20, 08:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
Re: Vassal of Bahamut
I am not seaweed. That's a B.
Praise I've received A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign
Avatar by Tiffanie Lirle
-
2018-06-20, 09:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2007
- Location
- Terra Australis
- Gender
Re: Vassal of Bahamut
My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
Torn-City - Massively multiplayer online browser based crime RPG
-
2018-06-20, 09:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2014
- Location
- California
- Gender
Re: Vassal of Bahamut
Nothing in the spell suggests that the ability damage from the spell can't reduce the target's Dexterity score below 1. I don't know of any general rule to that effect either.
And the second interpretation just needs you to do it twice, which isn't that tall of an order.Last edited by Troacctid; 2018-06-20 at 09:24 PM.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Handbooks: The Warlockopedia | The Warmagepedia (WIP) | Tier List (2019 Update)
Spreadsheets: Spellcasting classes | Deities | Useful items
Homebrew: Gestalt Theurge | Fighter and Monk fixes | Warlock stuff | Houserules and quick fixes
Original Fiction: The Wizard's Familiar
-
2018-06-20, 09:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2006
- Location
- NYC
- Gender
Re: Vassal of Bahamut
So far we've seen alignment shenanigan attempts, and spell wording shenanigan attempts. But have we attempted to apply shenanigans to the PrC special prerequisite itself?
We have not.
Therefore, I will now attempt to do so.
This might mean: "You must slay a juvenile (or older) red dragon using only one hand."
Therefore you can have all the help you want, you just can't use TWF nor can you use a 2-handed weapon. Flurry of Blows might be okay if you can convince your DM that you're only using one hand. If you have two claws, you can only use one of them.
Spells which can be cast using only one hand are perfectly acceptable.
Enter as a Paladin 7 with a one-handed sword and a shield and a full party behind you.I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
-
2018-06-20, 10:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
- Gender
Re: Vassal of Bahamut
The PAO approach seems "fair", and I do not see any flaws.
Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
-
2018-06-20, 10:15 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2017
- Location
- ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ
- Gender
Re: Vassal of Bahamut
-
2018-06-20, 10:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
- Gender
Re: Vassal of Bahamut
I mean the idea that you can just waltz to the cave and challenge it to a 1v1. This dragon shouldn't ever roll initiative, aka, not a fair fight.
It's not about being permissive. Honestly, how many defenses can a lv 3 sorcerer have? I do, however, think that this dragon shouldn't even be alone in the first place since it's basically a teenager. It should have a family protecting it fromevilgooddoers. Problem is if we go down this road, there's no way the Player can ever hope to achieve the dream of entering this PrC at lv 8.
-
2018-06-20, 10:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2016
- Location
- Earth and/or not-Earth
- Gender
Re: Vassal of Bahamut
The key word here is "slain". It doesn't say "defeated" or "fought and slain" or anything of that nature. You can bring as many allies as you want, so long as none of them do anything that could kill the dragon. In fact, you don't even have to participate in the fight - after your allies knock it out, you can coup-de-grace it at your leisure.
-
2018-06-20, 10:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
- Location
- Texas
- Gender
Re: Vassal of Bahamut
Spellcasting is a service you can buy, like swords or armor. Having a spellcaster zap you twice, (assuming it falls in your wbl) is just fine.
As far as internally consistent, logical in-universe fluff, no, of course dragons shouldn't leave their children home alone since a bunch of thugs like prospective vassals of bahamut are tooling around committing hate crimes on them, but like you said, if you do that, you're telling the pc that through fiat, he just can't do this at all.
Why don't we put these two things together?
Pay some 1hd commoner bum on the street, pao him into a red dragon, tell him you'll give him some money if he lets you kill and rez him, do that, and enjoy 10 levels of vassal of bahamut.I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!
Iron Chef Medals!
Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition
-
2018-06-20, 10:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
Re: Vassal of Bahamut
I am not seaweed. That's a B.
Praise I've received A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign
Avatar by Tiffanie Lirle
-
2018-06-20, 10:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2006
- Location
- NYC
- Gender
Re: Vassal of Bahamut
I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
-
2018-06-20, 10:41 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
- Location
- Texas
- Gender
Re: Vassal of Bahamut
Read: red dragons' parents are often murdered by Good-aligned adventurers
I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!
Iron Chef Medals!
Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition
-
2018-06-20, 10:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
Re: Vassal of Bahamut
If you read the full section, that's really not the implication at all. Reds don't like anyone, including each other. If it weren't for the drive to reproduce, I doubt they'd have any interaction with their own kind that wasn't the same robbery and murder they visit on "lesser" beings.
Nifft's little skit seems right on the money, really.I am not seaweed. That's a B.
Praise I've received A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign
Avatar by Tiffanie Lirle
-
2018-06-21, 12:33 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2007
- Location
- Terra Australis
- Gender
Re: Vassal of Bahamut
Are variant rules on the table?
Originally Posted by DMG p.28My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
Torn-City - Massively multiplayer online browser based crime RPG
-
2018-06-21, 12:43 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
- Location
- Texas
- Gender
Re: Vassal of Bahamut
Interesting idea. Assuming we can get 3 immediate actions in a turn somehow (belts of battle are unfortunately a swift, so we'd be robbing peter to pay paul), surge of fortune unfortunately stipulates crit threats must be rolled normally. Is there another way to guarantee a 20 on an attack roll?
Last edited by Venger; 2018-06-21 at 12:44 AM.
I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!
Iron Chef Medals!
Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition