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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Vassal of Bahamut

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Page 134 of the DMG has a whole subheading on changing alignment.

    Cool, thanks for quoting that. It looks like those all advise the DM about how to decide when and if a PC's alignment changes.

    It's even got a positive and explicit denial of player control, and confirms that the DM is in control of PC alignment changes.

    So, the DMG and the PHB seem to agree about this. I like the lack of dysfunction.

    If only all alignment disputes were so easily settled...


    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    The Atonement spell says so.
    Hmm, I guess that normally it's up to players to perform actions which lead to an alignment change, but an actual change happens only when and if the DM decides that it does (per the DMG and PHB).

    I think that's how we can make the spell text compatible with the other related rules in the game.

    Is there another compatible interpretation?

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    Default Re: Vassal of Bahamut

    Quote Originally Posted by Yogibear41 View Post
    Some people debate on what single-handedly means such as can your friends casts buffs on you before you go in to engage the creature? Can you use potions that you bought that someone else made? For this I will at least assume you can use potions. Also didn't see a point buy anywhere or if dragon magazine content/web content was okay (I might have missed it) (I also consider LA-buyoff to be non-cheesy, and definitely way less cheesy than shivering touching dragons)
    No debate necessary. Other characters giving you free buffs ≠ you doing it alone.

    You buying potions, paying for spellcasting, etc = you doing it alone. those things are gear. you're using the resources allocated to someone of your level. people aren't just giving you free stuff, or else you could just have a wizard kill the dragon for you while you stood in the corner and made paninis.

    What is it with people saying shivering touch is cheesy? What else exactly is that spell supposed to do? It's not shivering touch's fault that dragons are badly designed, weak monsters.
    Last edited by Venger; 2018-06-20 at 01:14 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Vassal of Bahamut

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    You buying potions, paying for spellcasting, etc = you doing it alone. those things are gear. you're using the resources allocated to someone of your level. people aren't just giving you free stuff, or else you could just have a wizard kill the dragon for you while you stood in the corner and made paninis.
    Hmm, so what about the Leadership feat?

    Are you doing it "alone" if you've paid a mechanical slot for an ally?

    (I guess Familiars would also follow that ruling, whichever way it goes, but most Lawful Good full-BAB classes don't get one.)

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    Default Re: Vassal of Bahamut

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    No debate necessary. Other characters giving you free buffs ≠ you doing it alone.

    You buying potions, paying for spellcasting, etc = you doing it alone. those things are gear. you're using the resources allocated to someone of your level. people aren't just giving you free stuff, or else you could just have a wizard kill the dragon for you while you stood in the corner and made paninis.

    What is it with people saying shivering touch is cheesy? What else exactly is that spell supposed to do? It's not shivering touch's fault that dragons are badly designed, weak monsters.
    Shivering touch is unreliable. A red dragon will almost assuredly seek out defenses VS cold damage and may be totally immune via aquired cold subtype.
    Last edited by Fouredged Sword; 2018-06-20 at 05:34 AM.

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    Default Re: Vassal of Bahamut

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Hilarious!

    Well, like your PC, at least you tried.

    But being allowed to try isn't the same as being able to succeed, so just as you've tried to argue yet failed to cite a rule, so also your PC has tried yet failed to re-align.

    Thanks for trying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger
    Well, then by the rules you've cited, there's no problem with that at all. You're tooling around, killing dragons' kids, skin a red dragon and say "man, I wish I had a boss who would set me up with more dragons to kill instead of having to do all the legwork myself" and then become lawful and work for bahamut, entering the class, and then once you're in, you go all bad cop and regain a nonlawful alignment so your pounce works. you can do all that through rp if you want.
    This is all reconstucted from someone who made it through. It's not the projected future of someone looking to enter Vassal of Bahamut in an actual game (if that were the case, we'd be talking about table manners and cheese, not RAW); it's the history of someone who did enter Vassal of Bahamut, and who was apparently really into Law for a brief period. So what if it doesn't work for nine out of ten people? The citation provides that you can try to be "really LG" (or CG), do all the right things, worship all the right people, and you'll end up being LG (or CG) at some point; that's all it takes for this backstory to work.
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    Default Re: Vassal of Bahamut

    Just as an FYI, a character could start out as an NG Barbarian to pick up Lion Totem (pounce). If, at some point prior to attaining level 8, he performs consistently lawful actions, there's no real reason he couldn't change to LG over the course of 6 or so levels. You could simply say that once the Barbarian gets a taste of life in civilized lands, his attitude to authority and laws starts to change.

    He would retain pounce, even once LG.

    Ex-Barbarians
    A barbarian who becomes lawful loses the ability to rage and cannot gain more levels as a barbarian. He retains all the other benefits of the class (damage reduction, fast movement, trap sense, and uncanny dodge).[/B]
    ...you traded away fast movement for pounce. You lose the ability to rage, but if you only take one level of Barbarian to get pounce, then move on to another full BAB class (possibly even Barb 1/Fighter 6 for more feats), all you are losing is rage 1/day, and the aiblity to take any more Barb levels.

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    Default Re: Vassal of Bahamut

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Hmm, so what about the Leadership feat?

    Are you doing it "alone" if you've paid a mechanical slot for an ally?

    (I guess Familiars would also follow that ruling, whichever way it goes, but most Lawful Good full-BAB classes don't get one.)
    Everyone in the thread seems to understand a paladin using his special mount would count as doing it alone. If we're being even remotely consistent about this, then leadership, dragon cohort, etc would count as doing it alone too since you're using the resources your character is allocated and not just getting stuff for free. Again, since earlier on, i had thought this was to be built under iron chef rules, I didn't mention leadership, but since it's been made clear that's not the case, leadership is certainly another valid approach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fouredged Sword View Post
    Shivering touch is unreliable. A red dragon will almost assuredly seek out defenses VS cold damage and may be totally immune via aquired cold subtype.
    We've been assuming til this point that we're using an out of the book, unoptimized juvenile red from the monster manual, so our guy has at least some kind of chance. If the dragon is arbitrarily immune to everything somehow (he has no ability to do that to himself via spells) then nothing we say will work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Just as an FYI, a character could start out as an NG Barbarian to pick up Lion Totem (pounce). If, at some point prior to attaining level 8, he performs consistently lawful actions, there's no real reason he couldn't change to LG over the course of 6 or so levels. You could simply say that once the Barbarian gets a taste of life in civilized lands, his attitude to authority and laws starts to change.

    He would retain pounce, even once LG.

    ...you traded away fast movement for pounce. You lose the ability to rage, but if you only take one level of Barbarian to get pounce, then move on to another full BAB class (possibly even Barb 1/Fighter 6 for more feats), all you are losing is rage 1/day, and the aiblity to take any more Barb levels.
    Oh, duh, I forgot you didn't lose pounce.
    In that case, just transform to LG normally, and take ferocity and you won't lose anything.
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    Default Re: Vassal of Bahamut

    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    You can downgrade a standard to a move (PHB 138), and a standard to a swift (through Ready, at the very least), just not a move to a swift.
    Couldn't you get another swift through another full-round with a Belt of Battle? Though at that point you could just full attack twice and be done with it.

    For the duration problem on wraithstrike: it is quite possible to Extend the spell, although that does require a custom magic item, or some kind of Sudden metamagic that works on potions and doesn't take an action (is there a power component that works with potions?).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    killing and eating a bag of rats is probably kosher.
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    Default Re: Vassal of Bahamut

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    Couldn't you get another swift through another full-round with a Belt of Battle? Though at that point you could just full attack twice and be done with it.
    Yeah, there is that

    Metamagic Wand Grip?
    Also an option, though as I said, it'd require your guy to have extend spell, which might help you qualify for VoB, but will suck for the rest of your career
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    Default Re: Vassal of Bahamut

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    What is it with people saying shivering touch is cheesy? What else exactly is that spell supposed to do? It's not shivering touch's fault that dragons are badly designed, weak monsters.
    It's not so much cheesy as it is remarkably poorly written. The favoured interpretation is that you can do 3d6 dex damage with a touch as many times as you like for the duration. This isn't -at all- the clear or only valid interpretation.

    It could be interpreted that you get one touch and must deliver it within the duration. It could be interpreted that the damage is supposed to be a penalty that lasts for the duration.

    It's just not a well written spell.
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    Default Re: Vassal of Bahamut

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    It's not so much cheesy as it is remarkably poorly written. The favoured interpretation is that you can do 3d6 dex damage with a touch as many times as you like for the duration. This isn't -at all- the clear or only valid interpretation.

    It could be interpreted that you get one touch and must deliver it within the duration. It could be interpreted that the damage is supposed to be a penalty that lasts for the duration.

    It's just not a well written spell.
    Any and all of those interpretations works fine for our purposes.

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    Default Re: Vassal of Bahamut

    Honestly, I think it's 100% impossible to win a fair fight vs the dragon.

    My suggestion is to go the coup d'grace route. Go Shooting Star Ranger, favored enemy dragon, get your Move Silently skill through the roof, get Darkstalker, get Detect Magic from a Silent source, Spellcraft high enough that you can detect and identify any Alarm spell the Dragon might have cast.

    Go in praying to your god that this dragon doesn't have a Mama, Papa, Big brother/sister taking care of him. Hope that the Dragon is asleep (if it isn't, hide until it comes back and sleeps). Hit it with a +1 dragonbane heavy pick forcing a Fort save DC ((2d4+3+4)*4+2d6) (average of 55) which means it only passes on a Nat 20.

    You might want a long-living race that doesn't need to sleep (Elf or Warforged, basically).

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    Default Re: Vassal of Bahamut

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    Honestly, I think it's 100% impossible to win a fair fight vs the dragon.
    What do you mean by "fair fight?"


    My suggestion is to go the coup d'grace route. Go Shooting Star Ranger, favored enemy dragon, get your Move Silently skill through the roof, get Darkstalker, get Detect Magic from a Silent source, Spellcraft high enough that you can detect and identify any Alarm spell the Dragon might have cast.
    That's good. Take trap expert for trapfinding if you're going to do detecting on your own. Since you're stuck with a Good alignment, grab nemesis

    Go in praying to your god that this dragon doesn't have a Mama, Papa, Big brother/sister taking care of him. Hope that the Dragon is asleep (if it isn't, hide until it comes back and sleeps). Hit it with a +1 dragonbane heavy pick forcing a Fort save DC ((2d4+3+4)*4+2d6) (average of 55) which means it only passes on a Nat 20.

    You might want a long-living race that doesn't need to sleep (Elf or Warforged, basically).
    Honestly, if your gm's so permissive that he lets you kill an enemy 3 levels above your cr as he stupidly goes to sleep unprotected, then you may as well just say "I killed a red dragon kid by giving him a pretzel and he choked on the pretzel and died" as part of your backstory to enter vassal of bahamut.
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    Default Re: Vassal of Bahamut

    Delbert the Dragon Stabber



    Ranger 2/Barbarian (Lion Totem) 1/Fighter 4

    H Sacred Vow
    1 Vow of Obedience
    B Track
    B Rapid Shot* (or TWF if you plan to stick in light armor; that may free up an extra flighter feat)
    3 Bind Vestige
    6 Improved Bind Vestige
    F1 Improved Initiative
    F2 Two-weapon Fighting
    F4 Improved Two Weapon Fighting

    Max ranks in Hide, Move Silently (not enough feat slots to pick up Darkstalker, unless you give up on the vestige feats). Also no room for Able Learner, so you’ll be grabbing some cross class ranks.

    Favoured enemy Dragon (duh).

    Stabbing with two Arrows of Dragon Slaying. Greater slaying arrows 4057gp each; lesser 2282gp each. -4 attack penalty for using arrows as melee weapons.

    ECL 7 character has around 19,000 gp.

    (Bane Blind armor is +15,000gp: this makes it unlikely to have this armor property and be able to afford more than one slaying arrow. If not, it would be very useful).

    Boots of Elvenkind/Cloak of Elvenkind or similar for sneaking.

    If you get the surprise round, you get 4 attacks on a charge. If any hit, dragon is making a DC 23 (or 20) fort save with a +12 bonus (inclusive of Focalor penalty). Each successful hit is a 50% (or 35%) chance of slaying the dragon outright.

    If you get the surprise round, you’re quite likely to beat the beast on initiative for the second round, meaning another 4 attacks. Load up on extra arrows of slaying if WBL permits.

    It’s pretty stupid/cheesy, and the build won’t be great for VoB (or much else) anyway, but it might work.

    The biggest issue is getting a surprise round with the dragon on the ground…

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    Default Re: Vassal of Bahamut

    I love the idea, Thurbane, but I don't think that using arrows as improvised melee weapons gets around the "an arrow that hits its target is destroyed" clause on PHB pg. 114. Regardless of what range you're at, either you're hitting or you're missing, and the rules are black-and-white about what happens to an arrow when you hit with it.
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    Default Re: Vassal of Bahamut

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Any and all of those interpretations works fine for our purposes.
    Of the three, only the favoured interpretation guarantees victory. The first alternate is uncomfortably close to even odds and the last can't drop the dragon at all since penalties can't reduce a score to less than 1.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
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    Thumbs up Re: Vassal of Bahamut

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I love the idea, Thurbane, but I don't think that using arrows as improvised melee weapons gets around the "an arrow that hits its target is destroyed" clause on PHB pg. 114. Regardless of what range you're at, either you're hitting or you're missing, and the rules are black-and-white about what happens to an arrow when you hit with it.
    Oh absolutely, agree with that, but you only need one failed save to do the job.

    Pump as much spare WBL into extra arrows as you can.

    Like I said, that build relies on a fair bit of luck to get the job done.

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    Default Re: Vassal of Bahamut

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Of the three, only the favoured interpretation guarantees victory. The first alternate is uncomfortably close to even odds and the last can't drop the dragon at all since penalties can't reduce a score to less than 1.
    Nothing in the spell suggests that the ability damage from the spell can't reduce the target's Dexterity score below 1. I don't know of any general rule to that effect either.

    And the second interpretation just needs you to do it twice, which isn't that tall of an order.
    Last edited by Troacctid; 2018-06-20 at 09:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Vassal of Bahamut

    So far we've seen alignment shenanigan attempts, and spell wording shenanigan attempts. But have we attempted to apply shenanigans to the PrC special prerequisite itself?

    We have not.

    Therefore, I will now attempt to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Special: The character must have single-handedly slain a juvenile (or older) red dragon
    This might mean: "You must slay a juvenile (or older) red dragon using only one hand."

    Therefore you can have all the help you want, you just can't use TWF nor can you use a 2-handed weapon. Flurry of Blows might be okay if you can convince your DM that you're only using one hand. If you have two claws, you can only use one of them.

    Spells which can be cast using only one hand are perfectly acceptable.


    Enter as a Paladin 7 with a one-handed sword and a shield and a full party behind you.

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    Default Re: Vassal of Bahamut

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    Honestly, I think it's 100% impossible to win a fair fight vs the dragon.
    The PAO approach seems "fair", and I do not see any flaws.

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    Default Re: Vassal of Bahamut

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    The PAO approach seems "fair", and I do not see any flaws.
    Somebody else PAO'ed you into the horned devil, so unless the same build also manages a +34 UMD and the money to buy two scrolls, I'm not so sure you did it yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    killing and eating a bag of rats is probably kosher.
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    Default Re: Vassal of Bahamut

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    What do you mean by "fair fight?"

    Honestly, if your gm's so permissive that he lets you kill an enemy 3 levels above your cr as he stupidly goes to sleep unprotected, then you may as well just say "I killed a red dragon kid by giving him a pretzel and he choked on the pretzel and died" as part of your backstory to enter vassal of bahamut.
    I mean the idea that you can just waltz to the cave and challenge it to a 1v1. This dragon shouldn't ever roll initiative, aka, not a fair fight.

    It's not about being permissive. Honestly, how many defenses can a lv 3 sorcerer have? I do, however, think that this dragon shouldn't even be alone in the first place since it's basically a teenager. It should have a family protecting it from evilgooddoers. Problem is if we go down this road, there's no way the Player can ever hope to achieve the dream of entering this PrC at lv 8.

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    Default Re: Vassal of Bahamut

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Special: The character must have single-handedly slain a juvenile (or older) red dragon
    The key word here is "slain". It doesn't say "defeated" or "fought and slain" or anything of that nature. You can bring as many allies as you want, so long as none of them do anything that could kill the dragon. In fact, you don't even have to participate in the fight - after your allies knock it out, you can coup-de-grace it at your leisure.

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    Default Re: Vassal of Bahamut

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    Somebody else PAO'ed you into the horned devil, so unless the same build also manages a +34 UMD and the money to buy two scrolls, I'm not so sure you did it yourself.
    Spellcasting is a service you can buy, like swords or armor. Having a spellcaster zap you twice, (assuming it falls in your wbl) is just fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    I mean the idea that you can just waltz to the cave and challenge it to a 1v1. This dragon shouldn't ever roll initiative, aka, not a fair fight.

    It's not about being permissive. Honestly, how many defenses can a lv 3 sorcerer have? I do, however, think that this dragon shouldn't even be alone in the first place since it's basically a teenager. It should have a family protecting it from evilgooddoers. Problem is if we go down this road, there's no way the Player can ever hope to achieve the dream of entering this PrC at lv 8.
    As far as internally consistent, logical in-universe fluff, no, of course dragons shouldn't leave their children home alone since a bunch of thugs like prospective vassals of bahamut are tooling around committing hate crimes on them, but like you said, if you do that, you're telling the pc that through fiat, he just can't do this at all.

    Why don't we put these two things together?

    Pay some 1hd commoner bum on the street, pao him into a red dragon, tell him you'll give him some money if he lets you kill and rez him, do that, and enjoy 10 levels of vassal of bahamut.
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    Default Re: Vassal of Bahamut

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    I mean the idea that you can just waltz to the cave and challenge it to a 1v1. This dragon shouldn't ever roll initiative, aka, not a fair fight.

    It's not about being permissive. Honestly, how many defenses can a lv 3 sorcerer have? I do, however, think that this dragon shouldn't even be alone in the first place since it's basically a teenager. It should have a family protecting it from evilgooddoers. Problem is if we go down this road, there's no way the Player can ever hope to achieve the dream of entering this PrC at lv 8.
    Draconomicon 52; red wyrmlings are often left to fend for themselves. For a juvenile to be unattended when he's (ostensibly) more dangerous than the vast majority of creatures in a region, including levelled humanoids, makes perfect sense.
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    Default Re: Vassal of Bahamut

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Draconomicon 52; red wyrmlings are often left to fend for themselves. For a juvenile to be unattended when he's (ostensibly) more dangerous than the vast majority of creatures in a region, including levelled humanoids, makes perfect sense.
    Dragon: "I stayed awake until you hatched, okay? Now I'm done and it's time for a nap decade. Don't be here when I wake up."

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    Default Re: Vassal of Bahamut

    Read: red dragons' parents are often murdered by Good-aligned adventurers
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    Default Re: Vassal of Bahamut

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    Read: red dragons' parents are often murdered by Good-aligned adventurers
    If you read the full section, that's really not the implication at all. Reds don't like anyone, including each other. If it weren't for the drive to reproduce, I doubt they'd have any interaction with their own kind that wasn't the same robbery and murder they visit on "lesser" beings.

    Nifft's little skit seems right on the money, really.
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    tongue Re: Vassal of Bahamut

    Are variant rules on the table?

    Quote Originally Posted by DMG p.28
    VARIANT: INSTANT KILL
    When you or a player rolls a natural 20 on an attack roll, a critical roll is made to see if a critical hit is scored. If that critical roll is also a 20, that’s considered a threat for an instant kill. Now a third roll, an instant kill roll, is made. If that roll scores a hit on the target in question (just like a normal critical roll after a threat), the target is instantly slain. Creatures immune to critical hits are also immune to instant kills.
    The instant kill variant only applies to natural 20s, regardless of the threat range for a combatant or weapon. (Otherwise weapons, feats, and magical powers that improve threat ranges would be much more powerful than they are intended to be.)
    The instant kill variant makes a game more lethal and combat more random. In any contest, an increase in randomness improves the odds for the underdog. Since the PCs win most fights, a rule that makes combat more random hurts the PCs more than it hurts their enemies.

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    Default Re: Vassal of Bahamut

    Interesting idea. Assuming we can get 3 immediate actions in a turn somehow (belts of battle are unfortunately a swift, so we'd be robbing peter to pay paul), surge of fortune unfortunately stipulates crit threats must be rolled normally. Is there another way to guarantee a 20 on an attack roll?
    Last edited by Venger; 2018-06-21 at 12:44 AM.
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