Making the Best of the Worst Multiclass

[KOLE]

Purely for fun, thought experiment.

I love multiclassing. I’ve at least looked into every possible combination, if not built them. But, of course, as cool as it is, there are some TERRIBLE combinations. If you were to participate in a theoretical campaign where every PC had to multiclass into a subpar combination, what would you pick, and how would you make the best of it?

For ideas, consult here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide

...And pick any combination that is red.

Rules:
-Standard multiclass rules apply, therefor you HAVE to have the required stats.
-Point buy or standard array only. If you roll really good stats, some terrible, MAD options become viable
-At least 4 levels are required in each class, so if building to 20, 16 x/4 y is the minimum.

I’ll start!

Barbarian 14/Wizard 6. Abjuration school; as the glyph is not a spell and can be used while raging. Keep strength and Con priorities; dump dex, keep Int at 13. First round of combat, cast an Abjuration spell, get glyph, rage, use it to keep you alive a little longer. Take utility spells primarily, use them outside of combat, and play as a gimped barb in combat.

[Quoxis]

Swords bard and any type of monk, 10/10 split. Grab some spells that don’t rely on your casting stat (bless or shield of faith are solid despite their low level), maybe even smite spells (at 10th level you should have access to any of them iirc), the ASI go into dex and wis.
Monk around preferably as kensai or drunken master, the former for offense, the latter for defense and repositioning.
You get a fighting style, potentially more weapon damage (depending on whether you take kensai) or free disengages and you can smite with spells (limiting you to one smite per turn), and if you run out of spell slots, you can spend your ki for flurries.
Of course the 13 (or preferably better, for more inspiration dice) in a non-monk-stat hurts, so you‘ll need to use defensive flourish a lot, but assuming a +4 both in dex and wis (which after 4 ASI shouldn’t be unobtainable) leaves you with 18 AC plus whatever you roll on your flourish (1d10).

[Waazraath]

Monk with a wizard dip.

Variant human, Tough feat (cause damn squishy, with lower HP and having to invest in Int).
Monk (Drunken Monk) 5 / Wizard (War Magic, from Xanathar's) 4 / monk +11.

First take Monk 5, to get Extra Attack. Any subclass will do, I picked Drunk for the level 3 ability (mini Mobile); being able to skirmish a bit, hit & run, and not get an attack in return.
Then wizard 4. As level 1 spells, I'd go for Shield, Absorb Elements, and Find familiar, in any case. This gives a few strong defensive options, and some nice utility. Find Familiar is great for scouting and utility. Another good pick at this level is Longstrider, since it augments natural monk abilities. The cantrips are a bonus, used for utility and/or an extra ranged attack option.

The second level of Wizard gives the subclass ability: a small bonus to initiative, and with Arcane Reflection a great reaction for either +2AC or +4 to a save. +2 AC is great for a melee fighter, +4 to a save is great for any character (and quite monk-y, to have great saves). This greatly improves the action economy of the build; normal monks have no, or very late game, ways to spend a reaction. Arcane Reflection is at will, and a few spells are also great reactions.

The third level of Wizard gives second level spells: Misty Step (more mobility), Shadow Blade (for a little bit of extra damage), Invisibility (quite monk-like) and Mirror Image (defense no concentration) are all good contenders.

Wiz 4 is another (much needed ASI).


This build shouldn't be much worse than a standard Monk, afaic. For a twist, take one extra level of wizard for 3rd level spells, like haste or fly. This costs an ASI though, which is quite a high cost in this build (that needs max dex and wis, and wouldn't mind the option to get either 1 extra feat, or +2 con).

[CTurbo]

I'm going to play a Wizard/Barb character one of these days.

He'll be a bit MAD so I'm waiting until I roll some decent stats, but I plan to play him as a straight Wizard until he gets hit by any attack or runs out of spells at which time he will get really pissed and Rage out lol

I don't REALLY want to do it as a joke as in I still want him to be a good usable character. I know I could pull this off with point buy and medium armor, but I REALLY want him to be unarmored which means I need a decent Str, Dex, Con, and Int

Anyway I think it'll be a fun character to play and yeah I'll probably go Abjur

[2D8HP]

Half Elf Ancients Paladins 4/ Gloom Stalker Ranger 4.

Start out:

STR: 14

DEX: 16

CON: 10

INT: 8

WIS: 14

CHA: 14

Take the Archery and Defense Fighting Styles, and put the ASI's into DEX.

Actually, despite being Red on the guide's chart, this doesn't look bad to me!

[CTurbo]

Despite being probably the MADest character possible, I actually really like the synergy between the Monk and Paladin.

You'd need 13 Str, Dex, Wis, and Cha to even qualify and you're obviously going to want a decent Con too, but...

Paladin 6/Monk 14 would be proficient in all saves AND get you Cha bonus to them too.
Paladin 11/Monk 9 could smite 4 times every round and Improved Smite would work with unarmed attacks too so you'd deal the extra d8 up to 4 times per round.



Also, I want to play a Monk/Barb one day that would be unarmed and unarmored. I'd play him like a Dr Jekyl/Mr Hyde type character. Again, unarmed strikes would benefit from Rage bonus damage so you're really maximizing it. All of your fun Monk stuff works while raging too. Very MAD character though.

[KOLE]

Despite being probably the MADest character possible, I actually really like the synergy between the Monk and Paladin.

You'd need 13 Str, Dex, Wis, and Cha to even qualify and you're obviously going to want a decent Con too, but...

Paladin 6/Monk 14 would be proficient in all saves AND get you Cha bonus to them too.
Paladin 11/Monk 9 could smite 4 times every round and Improved Smite would work with unarmed attacks too so you'd deal the extra d8 up to 4 times per round.



Also, I want to play a Monk/Barb one day that would be unarmed and unarmored. I'd play him like a Dr Jekyl/Mr Hyde type character. Again, unarmed strikes would benefit from Rage bonus damage so you're really maximizing it. All of your fun Monk stuff works while raging too. Very MAD character though.

Monk Barb actually sounds really fun. Maybe save it for the day you roll REALLY well for a new campaign.

[PeteNutButter]

I must say I approve of this thread, as I enjoy working around these limitations. For clarity's sake, I would also mention that the order of the classes on the chart are important, where the first class represents the one with more total levels, and the second class is the "dip." That means something like a Barbarian 14/Wizard 6 is actually a barbarian/wizard and not a wizard/barbarian, according to the chart.

That being said I have been working on a wizard/barbarian that I think could be quite effective. The barbarians casting limitations don't effect non-concentration spells, and work exceptionally well with long duration ones. These spells also tend to suffer little from having a low Int.

So I give you: The Monster Mash (Wolf Totem Barb 5/Necromancer X).
Stats are 16, 14, 14, 13, 9, 8. Variant Human, take either Tough or Sentinel to start.

You'll wade into battle backed up by an army of undead that have advantage to hit anything adjacent to you via your wolf totem. It's quite possibly the best way to ensure they still have a moderate chance at hitting at higher levels. Since the necromancer damage bonus for your undead damage scales with your proficiency, it doesn't suffer from your MC at all. Use your lower level spells on things like Longstrider (base 50 feet movement speed) and False Life (THP scales excellently with rage). Spend all of your higher level spells on raising and maintaining undead. You don't need to have slots left to cast things, you have rage and extra attack.

You'll wield a battle axe and a shield and the best medium armor you can get. All of your zombies will also wear the same. If you can't afford armor for them, cover yours with an old ratted cloak. Be sure to have a proficiency in a disguise kit and deception from your background. Pretend to be just another zombie! Even a boring DM has to let some things not realize you're different.

Ensure that you approach every combat like a thriller dance. You may need to spare a skeleton or two so they have the finger articulation capable of putting down that sick bass riff.

[ImproperJustice]

Despite being probably the MADest character possible, I actually really like the synergy between the Monk and Paladin.

You'd need 13 Str, Dex, Wis, and Cha to even qualify and you're obviously going to want a decent Con too, but...

Paladin 6/Monk 14 would be proficient in all saves AND get you Cha bonus to them too.
Paladin 11/Monk 9 could smite 4 times every round and Improved Smite would work with unarmed attacks too so you'd deal the extra d8 up to 4 times per round.



Also, I want to play a Monk/Barb one day that would be unarmed and unarmored. I'd play him like a Dr Jekyl/Mr Hyde type character. Again, unarmed strikes would benefit from Rage bonus damage so you're really maximizing it. All of your fun Monk stuff works while raging too. Very MAD character though.

I ran in a game with someone who played a Paladin Monk. It looks rough on paper but in practice there was a real coolness factor to seeing stuuning smites in action. Divine Favor seems to really help when you can throw 4 attacks a round as well.
He called his character the “The Immortal Sacred Fist”.

[ciarannihill]

Had a silly build based around the idea of getting Healing Spirit uses for every short rest, making your party the most sustained Dungeon crawlers ever!

The build really "turns on" at level 7, with Celestial Tome Warlock 3, Dreams Druid 3 and Life Cleric 1.

Gives you 7d6 of ranged BA healing without the need to use spell slots, Healing Spirit using Warlock slots every short rest with the Cleric Disciple of Life boost meaning if your party is able to take a short rest with Healing Spirit going for one minute each member can take turns moving in and out of the space to give each party members 10d6+40 hit points.

Incidentally, you also get 10 cantrips, 14 spells "prepared", medium armor, a shield, and Eldritch Blast.


Half Elf +1 Dex / +1 Wis / +2 Cha

Point Buy: Str 8 / Dex 13 (14) / Con 12 / Int 8 / Wis 15 (16) / Cha 14 (16)


Not sure how else you'd improve the build (or move forward with leveling, large number of potential paths), but totally open to suggestions for this silly build.

[Cerefel]

Wizard/barbarian has some pretty solid potential as a straightforward gish, even if some things are asynergistic

Half-Elf Barbarian 2 / Bladesinger Wizard 18

15(16)
12
15(16)
13
8
8(10)

By level 8, this build has proficiency in medium armor and martial weapons, Reckless Attack, Extra Attack, GWM, 3rd-level spells, rage, and bladesong. Rage and bladesong will mostly be collecting dust in this build, as the primary focus is combining self-buffs, GWM, and reckless attacks to hit things really hard without getting hit back nearly as much as a single-classed barbarian. If you really want to use rage, there are some non-concentration buffs that can contribute to a shockingly sturdy character when combined with rage's damage resistance.

[Sorlock Master]

Purely for fun, thought experiment.

I love multiclassing. I’ve at least looked into every possible combination, if not built them. But, of course, as cool as it is, there are some TERRIBLE combinations. If you were to participate in a theoretical campaign where every PC had to multiclass into a subpar combination, what would you pick, and how would you make the best of it?

For ideas, consult here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide

...And pick any combination that is red.

Rules:
-Standard multiclass rules apply, therefor you HAVE to have the required stats.
-Point buy or standard array only. If you roll really good stats, some terrible, MAD options become viable
-At least 4 levels are required in each class, so if building to 20, 16 x/4 y is the minimum.

I’ll start!

Barbarian 14/Wizard 6. Abjuration school; as the glyph is not a spell and can be used while raging. Keep strength and Con priorities; dump dex, keep Int at 13. First round of combat, cast an Abjuration spell, get glyph, rage, use it to keep you alive a little longer. Take utility spells primarily, use them outside of combat, and play as a gimped barb in combat.

I would not put too much stock in that guide. Seeing as it has Ranger Paladin and Monk Warlock as red and both are some of the best multiclassing options in the game.

[PeteNutButter]

I would not put too much stock in that guide. Seeing as it has Ranger Paladin and Monk Warlock as red and both are some of the best multiclassing options in the game.

Actually they are purple which means according to the guide: "You are forgoing too much in your core class, compared to what you can gain. Possible for some niche builds, but probably best avoided. Likely MAD."

Warlock/Monk by contrast is red, because why would a warlock dip monk?

If you read the guide I have detailed explanations for most of these. Being a bad color (purple or even red) is not at all a death sentence, it just takes more experience and mastery of the system to not gimp your character.

The common shadow monk/warlock is MAD and doesn't get all that much compared to what a straight warlock can do with devil's sight. Most of these builds end up sacrificing HP or AC to make it work and gain some mobility. They become a niche build that can do one thing reasonably well. By comparison, if you combine any SAD classes its nearly impossible to gimp your character.

[Sorlock Master]

Warlock/Monk by contrast is red, because why would a warlock dip monk?

4 levels in Monk gets you Increased move speed, Disengage as a bonus action, Dodge as a bonus action, Slow Fall, and deflect missiles. All of which would be extremely useful for any of the pacts.

Increased movement and disengage allows for kiting more effectively. Slow Fall and Step of the wind save you two invocations while only losing 1. Pact of the blade gains the most by expanding the damage they can do by adding 2 attacks which can benefit from hex, even with level 4 monk your potentially getting 1d4+1d6+Dex

If you read the guide I have detailed explanations for most of these. Being a bad color (purple or even red) is not at all a death sentence, it just takes more experience and mastery of the system to not gimp your character.

Okay, and a guide is there to help you avoid the pitfalls of odd combos. So from a logical perspective a decent guide would have longer entries for harder to mesh combos, and shorter entries for easy to mesh combos. So what's your entry look like?

A warlock who dips monk gains monk features at the cost of heavy MADness. Best left to niche builds.

Seems you have given the class combo a death sentence.

[PeteNutButter]

4 levels in Monk gets you Increased move speed, Disengage as a bonus action, Dodge as a bonus action, Slow Fall, and deflect missiles. All of which would be extremely useful for any of the pacts.

Increased movement and disengage allows for kiting more effectively. Slow Fall and Step of the wind save you two invocations while only losing 1. Pact of the blade gains the most by expanding the damage they can do by adding 2 attacks which can benefit from hex, even with level 4 monk your potentially getting 1d4+1d6+Dex.

Compared to what? I'd affirm that this option is much weaker than a fighter or paladin dip for a blade lock and completely not worth it for a caster lock. The MADness is a nail in the coffin. You'll end up with a lower AC, forcing you to take the mage armor invocation which effectively hard caps your AC at 18. The fighter or paladin choices net more damage, more AC, more HP meaning far more surivability and more DPR.

Okay, and a guide is there to help you avoid the pitfalls of odd combos. So from a logical perspective a decent guide would have longer entries for harder to mesh combos, and shorter entries for easy to mesh combos. So what's your entry look like?

Seems you have given the class combo a death sentence.

It's essentially a trap option, that deserves no extra space. Short of naming specific features, what does this build do that another doesn't do much easier and better? Whatever it is it is certainly niche and MAD, meeting the qualifications of the Red category. As evidence of this thread though, you can still make these "trap" options work. They just won't be as dominating as the stronger MC combinations. If the standard for RED were unplayable. Then nothing would be RED.

I'm happy to entertain disagreements and continue to update the guide based on people's constructive suggestions. We need to have a better argument than "if you take 4 levels of monk you get the first four levels of monk features." How if at all does the resulting build become better than the sum of its parts?

[ciarannihill]

Monk/Warlock is kind of like Monk/Bladesinger -- it's a nifty idea if you get a super high stat spread by rolling, but if you use point buy or the standard array you're just being less potent than moving more into the base classes or multiclassing into more SAD options.

You can get a similar mobility options to Monk/Warlock out of Rogue/Warlock (Swashbuckler/Hexblade), and with much less needed investment into multiple attributes, and with much higher potential AC since you can wear medium armor and a shield.

[Ebon]

I'll Play,

Open Hand Monk 5+ / Divination Wizard 3
The Astrologer

I'd argue the three levels of Wizard, when customized to the Monk chassis, are comparable to three more levels of Monk. The big draw here is getting to use your Portent dice for auto Stunning Strikes and eventually Quivering Palm. That's a long way off, but I think the versatility of this build would be entertaining to play as well.

The Shield spell and Longstrider are going to be welcome additions. I'd load up on rituals as well, to get the most out of the extra spells known. Thunderwave and Booming Blade make for an interesting Raiden type character. Take Misty Step and Alter Self at Level three. As the guide points out, +1 magical natural weaponry for an hour is quite good on a monk.

This would be a character that comes up with lots of weird ways to hurt the opponent (auto push them 15 feet off a cliff ledge, anybody?) combined with lots of mobility and adaptability. Should be fun. I'd Play it.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

Ooh fun
Lore Bard 12/open hand Monk 8
Half elf
8,20,10,8,16,20
Feat mobile

Honestly this is a debuffer/controller build stunning strike combined with cutting words, and you have sixth level spells with six spells from any class. Notable spells: staggering smite, steel wind strike, guardian of nature, wall of force, silence, fairie fire.

[Specter]

I'd be happy to play as a Monk 15/Wizard 5. All spells geared towards defense; Shield, Absorb, Mirror Image, etc. Would be very hard to kill. Diviner also can guarantee some stuns or saves.

[TheFryingPen]

Not fully fleshed out, but a template that has some nice synergies (though, as many MCs, they come online late):

Ancestral Guard Barbarian 14 + Shadow Sorcerer 6
Half-Orc

Start Attributes:
14(+2) +4
12 +2
15(+1)
8
8
14

Not sure if or which feat, that depends on weapons. Sentinel could work well with this character, but also clash with Spirit Shield as reaction.
Medium Armor

For Cantrips basically your favorite utility ones, they won't see much use in battle.
Same goes for spells, though Mirror Image is a must-take.
Metamagics according to spells, Subtle would be good for social utility casting.

Strategy is basically converting most Spell Slots (other than the ones for Mirror Image) to sorcery points. At the start of / pre fight cast Mirror Image and/or summon a Hound of Ill Omen. Then rage and go in with your hound. The hound will have advantage due to pack tactics and can knock things prone (which gives you advantage without having to use Reckless Attack). So you're more likely to hit and get Ancestral Protectors going. This and your Spirit Shield will keep your dog and your comrades safe.

Ancestral Protectors also makes your mirror images more sturdy. When you use Reckless attack and the enemy hits a mirror image instead of you, he has disadvantage instead of advantage.

You'll also have a hard time going down since you get up to 3 chances of delaying your death:

• Barbarian's Relentless Rage
• Shadow Sorcerer's Strength of the Grave
• Half-Orc's Relentless Endurance

RAW, afaik there's no limit (no reaction required) of which of these saving throws / features you can use, so basically if one fails, try the other and if that doesn't work you got your Half-Orc feature as a fall back.

So basically you're a barbaric Protector that puts another ally on the field, has good utility out of combat and will rarely ever go down. It's also AL conform.

[Ebon]

Warlock/Monk by contrast is red, because why would a warlock dip monk?

How about Sun Soul Monk 5 / Celestial Warlock 6

Doesn't the Celestial's Radiant Soul, that adds Cha to damage from a Radiant spell, work with the Sun Soul's Sun Bolt as a Ranged Spell Attack? This could add both Dex and Cha to your d6 attacks x 4.

Not trying to de-rail the thread, but how do the limits of the Celestial Radiant Soul play out over multiple attacks, like with Divine Favor for instance?

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

How about Sun Soul Monk 5 / Celestial Warlock 6

Doesn't the Celestial's Radiant Soul, that adds Cha to damage from a Radiant spell, work with the Sun Soul's Sun Bolt as a Ranged Spell Attack? This could add both Dex and Cha to your d6 attacks x 4.

Not trying to de-rail the thread, but how do the limits of the Celestial Radiant Soul play out over multiple attacks, like with Divine Favor for instance?

Radiant soul specifies casting a spell, where as the sun soul uses an attack action which happens to be radiant damage.

[PeteNutButter]

How about Sun Soul Monk 5 / Celestial Warlock 6

Doesn't the Celestial's Radiant Soul, that adds Cha to damage from a Radiant spell, work with the Sun Soul's Sun Bolt as a Ranged Spell Attack? This could add both Dex and Cha to your d6 attacks x 4.

Not trying to de-rail the thread, but how do the limits of the Celestial Radiant Soul play out over multiple attacks, like with Divine Favor for instance?

Sadly no, at least not RAW. Even if you could get past the MADness, these features don't interact. Sun soul bolts aren't actually spells, despite being spell attacks. You are not casting a spell, so it doesn't benefit from the warlock feature that reads, "whenever you cast a spell.."

EDIT: A 10 hour window between posts and somehow I get ninjaed within 30 seconds. Masterful!

[Thunderbird]

OK, let's see. I'm thinking a sword-and-board Ancients Paladin 11/ Abjurer Wizard 9.
Standard Human with point buy can start with: 15 STR, 10 DEX, 16 CON, 13 INT, 10 WIS, 14 CHA (I like having a high CON).
Even out STR and INT on the first ASI, then max STR and take War Caster.
You can tank pretty nicely with heavy armor and Arcane Ward, and you have more spell slots to smite with.

I may actually play that at some point.

[KOLE]

I must say I approve of this thread, as I enjoy working around these limitations.

Ah, Senpai noticed me!

That means something like a Barbarian 14/Wizard 6 is actually a barbarian/wizard and not a wizard/barbarian, according to the chart.

Not to correct the master, but according to your chart, both Barb/Wiz and Wiz/Barb are in fact Red! I had to do a double take to make sure I hadn't slipped up.

So I give you: The Monster Mash (Wolf Totem Barb 5/Necromancer X).
Stats are 16, 14, 14, 13, 9, 8. Variant Human, take either Tough or Sentinel to start.

You'll wade into battle backed up by an army of undead that have advantage to hit anything adjacent to you via your wolf totem. It's quite possibly the best way to ensure they still have a moderate chance at hitting at higher levels. Since the necromancer damage bonus for your undead damage scales with your proficiency, it doesn't suffer from your MC at all. Use your lower level spells on things like Longstrider (base 50 feet movement speed) and False Life (THP scales excellently with rage). Spend all of your higher level spells on raising and maintaining undead. You don't need to have slots left to cast things, you have rage and extra attack.

...This, is AMAZING. I actually REALLY dig this. And now I need to play it sometime!

Be sure to have a proficiency in a disguise kit and deception from your background. Pretend to be just another zombie! Even a boring DM has to let some things not realize you're different.

...And this is also a really cool idea! I think my DM might groan at it, but I think he would appreciate the thought there.

I actually really look forward to trying this character sometime. For extra cheese, You could hand back with skeleton archers. That many ranged attacks with advantage could really do some damage.

[PeteNutButter]

Ah, Senpai noticed me!

Not to correct the master, but according to your chart, both Barb/Wiz and Wiz/Barb are in fact Red! I had to do a double take to make sure I hadn't slipped up.

...This, is AMAZING. I actually REALLY dig this. And now I need to play it sometime!

...And this is also a really cool idea! I think my DM might groan at it, but I think he would appreciate the thought there.

I actually really look forward to trying this character sometime. For extra cheese, You could hand back with skeleton archers. That many ranged attacks with advantage could really do some damage.

You are right they are both red. Apparently I can't read my own.. typing.

Sadly the wolf totem ability only gives advantage on melee attacks. If you forgo the disguise cheese, you can just go with skeletons in medium armor with shields and scimitars. That extra +1 to hit is probably worth it at the cost of likely having to reanimate them more often.

I kind of want to play it at sometime too... I can't decide if it's better to just rush barb 5 or to get those minions online early as possible with a Barb 1/Necro 6 then get extra attack.

[KOLE]

Ah, my bad, I misunderstood the Wolf Totem, I thought it gave advantage to allies within 5 feet of you.

[ciarannihill]

You are right they are both red. Apparently I can't read my own.. typing.

Sadly the wolf totem ability only gives advantage on melee attacks. If you forgo the disguise cheese, you can just go with skeletons in medium armor with shields and scimitars. That extra +1 to hit is probably worth it at the cost of likely having to reanimate them more often.

I kind of want to play it at sometime too... I can't decide if it's better to just rush barb 5 or to get those minions online early as possible with a Barb 1/Necro 6 then get extra attack.

I feel like a build like this functions perhaps better in a game where you start off at a higher level to begin with, but I would say probably rush Barb 5 first, just because having the higher HP total will allow you more leeway when you're just beginning to learn your Necromantic spells -- And given that cantrip spells scale with Character level and not class level your access to Toll the Dead starting from level 6 still does 2d12 at range when you're out of Rages or choosing to save them for other encounters.

Seems like a tough multiclass to level through, but once you have a little army it pays off in their power level and the cool factor.