Why doesnt Lesser Restoration cure exhaustion?

[Trask]

Is it because exhaustion is percieved to be a debilitating condition? Maybe so but even then it only reduces it by one. Am I alone in feeling that this not only extremely harsh but also silly?

Why is exhaustion on the same level as petrification, curses etc. And even then its not completely removed.

I feel that exhaustion should be keyed to lesser restoration.

Thoughts?

[Kane0]

Well one level for Lesser and all for Greater probably won't cause all that much breakage in the system, unless you have a Sorlock or something setting out to abuse it.

Edit: Wait, the Cleric could use it on the Frenzy Barbarian! Totally OP!

[MaxWilson]

Is it because exhaustion is percieved to be a debilitating condition? Maybe so but even then it only reduces it by one. Am I alone in feeling that this not only extremely harsh but also silly?

Why is exhaustion on the same level as petrification, curses etc. And even then its not completely removed.

I feel that exhaustion should be keyed to lesser restoration.

Thoughts?

Mmmm, good point. If a player asked for this I would agree and do it. I don't feel strongly enough about it to houserule in the absence of a request, but what you say makes sense.

Edit: Wait, the Cleric could use it on the Frenzy Barbarian! Totally OP!

Hahaha, yup, with this suggested houserule in effect, Berserkers actually feel just about right.

[Speely]

I houserule this one. Lesser eliminates one level of Exhaustion, while Greater eliminates all levels. I've not seen this unbalance things at all, since more often than not, if players are making Exhaustion saves, there are baddies around, and every spell slot spent is less they have to deal with those baddies.

Edit: I've not had to deal with this with a Frenzy Barb in the party hehe.

[CTurbo]

I houserule this one. Lesser eliminates one level of Exhaustion, while Greater eliminates all levels.

I have this same exact houserule because I think Exhaustion is way too harsh and they've made it too difficult to get rid of.

[Speely]

I have this same exact houserule because I think Exhaustion is way too harsh and they've made it too difficult to get rid of.

Yeah, I appreciate that Exhaustion is a hard check for the exploration of difficult areas, etc, but I feel like the counters to that are a bit harsh. In a broader sense, I think that allowing a lower-level spell to help a bit encourages players to use those spell slots (which are valuable) to make a choice. Exhaustion is a good way to ask players to expend resources, but the cost doesn't have to be so harsh as to dissuade the spending of those resources. Making it a Lesser/Greater choice adds some options that players can use to decide what to do in a given situation.

One reason I feel good about this is that lower-level spell slots are arguably as useful as higher-level slots. Expanding the range of slots with which one can counter Exhaustion is a win/win. Players have more agency and the DM has expanded their ability to force resource management on the players.

[Naanomi]

Coffelok becomes much easier to pull off, but otherwise I don’t see much harm

[Trask]

One reason I feel good about this is that lower-level spell slots are arguably as useful as higher-level slots. Expanding the range of slots with which one can counter Exhaustion is a win/win. Players have more agency and the DM has expanded their ability to force resource management on the players.

That was a big part of it for me too. I like to challenge the players with things that dont always affect HP, I think traps and other things can be more fun or interesting when they inflict a status or a roleplaying caveat rather than always doing damage. Exhaustion is a great tool for this, especially exploration mechanics, but its just so darn harsh that it becomes really really annoying to remove it and you just end up not wanting to deal with it at all.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I houserule this one. Lesser eliminates one level of Exhaustion, while Greater eliminates all levels. I've not seen this unbalance things at all, since more often than not, if players are making Exhaustion saves, there are baddies around, and every spell slot spent is less they have to deal with those baddies.

Edit: I've not had to deal with this with a Frenzy Barb in the party hehe.

My thoughts exactly. If this house rule was in effect at my table I'd definitely play a berzerker.

[Speely]

My thoughts exactly. If this house rule was in effect at my table I'd definitely play a berzerker.

I wouldn't be mad at this. Sure, the zerker gets off easy after a frenzy, but it costs their support a spell slot(s.) Hell, let the party plan for it and try to game the system. This is why being a DM is so awesome. We have the ability to allow rests (or not,) and that directs so much. Your healer now has one less spell slot to heal you after a big bad lands a crit. Fun!

[Trask]

My thoughts exactly. If this house rule was in effect at my table I'd definitely play a berzerker.

And I would be glad to see one. All my players ever play are bear barbs.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I wouldn't be mad at this. Sure, the zerker gets off easy after a frenzy, but it costs their support a spell slot(s.) Hell, let the party plan for it and try to game the system. This is why being a DM is so awesome. We have the ability to allow rests (or not,) and that directs so much. Your healer now has one less spell slot to heal you after a big bad lands a crit. Fun!

It's probably worth the investment to have the Berzerker getting an extra attack with his greatsword every round. Dead enemies don't get critical hits.

[diabloblanco18]

I houserule this one. Lesser eliminates one level of Exhaustion, while Greater eliminates all levels. I've not seen this unbalance things at all, since more often than not, if players are making Exhaustion saves, there are baddies around, and every spell slot spent is less they have to deal with those baddies.

Edit: I've not had to deal with this with a Frenzy Barb in the party hehe.

I've used this house rule for a while in most of the games I run, along with one that lets PCs spend hit dice when they get healed. The only frenzy barb I've seen was before I started using the rule, though.

[CTurbo]

Yeah nobody ever plays Frenzy Barbs RAW because exhaustion is such a steep penalty.

I played a Stout Halfling Frenzy Barb with a 4 Int as a side character and his character concept was to immediately Rage+frenzy if he got attacked, but he just flat out didnt participate in a lot of encounters because of exhaustion and often slept in the Goliath Barb's bag lol while the group traveled so he did get some extra long rests.

But yeah it's way too hard to remove.

The only time I've had to implement this house rule about Lesser remove 1 level and Greater removing all levels, the Barb and Cleric had an agreement that if the Cleric was going to have to always devote a spell slot the the Barb, the Barb was going to have to pay a tithe to the Cleric's church.

[Fuzzy Logic]

I heartily condone this houserule, along with short rests removing one level of exhaustion. Have yet to be overrun with frenzy barbs

[Psikerlord]

It's because of the berserker subclass and frenzy. Making frenzy too available will break lots of sh*t.

[Trask]

It's because of the berserker subclass and frenzy. Making frenzy too available will break lots of sh*t.

I don't think that letting lesser restoration cure 1 rank of exhaustion will break anything. As it is now, nobody would use a greater restoration to cure it, now it might actually get cured from time to time or frequently depending on the party. It makes the exhaustion a factor that can be avoided rather than a status to be lived with, which I think is a good thing since Frenzy barbarian, while not weak, suffers in adventures without easy access to a resting place.

And even if it did "break" the Frenzy barb and make it way strong, I really dont think an entire spell and status effect should be balanced around one subclass. I think exhaustion is a neat mechanic, well implemented but under utilized by the game. This opens up a lot of possibilities for its use in traps, custom spells, or monster effects. I actually think the exhaustion mechanic could be excellent for a death system, since it very well abstractly illustrates the idea of getting progressively more debilitated in your ability to fight until you are comatose and then dead, and it requires rest, but thats a topic for another thread.

[MrStabby]

I have a few concerns.

I am not saying this is bad or wrong, but there are a couple of things as a DM I would want to address.

I think in this edition "recovery" in general is too easy - healing spells and hit dice, full HP recovered on a long rest... There is no incentive to keep out of damaging situations without using variant rules. There is little legacy of fights between short rests and even less after the end of the day.

Mounting exhaustion is one of the few mechanics that does add a major burden that takes time to fix. It is one of the few things that can mechanically act to create tension without the need to throw overpowered encounters in. I like that I can put my players in a position where they have to debate the trade off between another day of exhausting forced march up the mountains against more limited time to save the world when they get to their destination.

Making exhaustion too easy to shrug off for a party makes this harder.

[Vogie]

If this house rule was in effect at my table I'd definitely play a berzerker.

Not only would I play a berserker, I'd play one with 3 levels of Cleric so I could remove my own Exhaustion. Order, Forge, Death, Knowledge, and Light domains would all work with it.

[mephnick]

I've long had this rule and allowed Berzerkers one short rest per day to cure a level of exhaustion and still no one plays it.

The extra attack just isn't seen as very important in a game with feats, definitely not important enough to base a subclass around.

[Theodoxus]

It's because of the berserker subclass and frenzy. Making frenzy too available will break lots of sh*t.

Anecdotal evidence in this thread points to this not being the case... Though even if it were, I'm not sure it would be too horrible to break lots.

Not only would I play a berserker, I'd play one with 3 levels of Cleric so I could remove my own Exhaustion. Order, Forge, Death, Knowledge, and Light domains would all work with it.

I'd go Life, personally. Even with a 13 Wis minimum, that's +3 HP (6 HP equivalent when raging) on a 1st level healing spell. (Assuming you're keeping both 2nd level slots for LR.) On top of Bless (meh on a barb), CW (nice), LR (perfect) and Spiritual Weapon, yeah, it competes with Frenzy, and yeah it's 2nd level - but if you're needing a force effect to damage something (ghost, perhaps?) it's there for the asking. It'll hit for crap, probably, given your lower Wis (than Str, for sure). But in a pinch...

I'd go Hill Dwarf for this build. Extra hit points, Wis boost... and it's unexpected. Pretty fun!

[Willie the Duck]

I have a few concerns.

I am not saying this is bad or wrong, but there are a couple of things as a DM I would want to address.

I think in this edition "recovery" in general is too easy - healing spells and hit dice, full HP recovered on a long rest... There is no incentive to keep out of damaging situations without using variant rules. There is little legacy of fights between short rests and even less after the end of the day.

Mounting exhaustion is one of the few mechanics that does add a major burden that takes time to fix. It is one of the few things that can mechanically act to create tension without the need to throw overpowered encounters in. I like that I can put my players in a position where they have to debate the trade off between another day of exhausting forced march up the mountains against more limited time to save the world when they get to their destination.

Making exhaustion too easy to shrug off for a party makes this harder.

This is also my primary concern.
Regardless of whether it is exhaustion (or exhaustion as it stands, at least), there needs to be something that the DM can throw at the party, other than waves of hit point attrition in excess of their ability to recoup, that can be used as a peril, threat, greater challenge (to justify greater reward), or big subtext sign saying, 'you are not prepared to go down this road.'

It's because of the berserker subclass and frenzy. Making frenzy too available will break lots of sh*t.

I would certainly be amenable to frenzy inducing a kind of exhaustion that can be fixed by LR. I'm less convinced that the same should be the case for going without sleep, walking across a desert, exploring the jungles of Chult in full plate, etc.

Coffelok becomes much easier to pull off, but otherwise I don’t see much harm

While further analysis since the initial alarm bells have indicated that the Coffeelock is not as ridiculously abusable as first envisioned, I hate how it throws a wrench in posited changes to the rules. I think if I were ever at the point where I was looking at a rule change and thinking "I'd like to do this, but look at what it does to Coffeelocks!" my decision would be to choose the new house rule and ditch coffeelocks. They are a neat little confluence of the rules and kinda fun to explore in the part of my mindspace that likes poking imaginary bears, but I don't honestly know of anyone who'd be crushed not to be able to play one.

[MaxWilson]

It's probably worth the investment to have the Berzerker getting an extra attack with his greatsword every round. Dead enemies don't get critical hits.

Every round except the first, you mean. He spends his bonus action on round 1 to Rage; he spends it on extra attacks on subsequent rounds.

The only time I've had to implement this house rule about Lesser remove 1 level and Greater removing all levels, the Barb and Cleric had an agreement that if the Cleric was going to have to always devote a spell slot the the Barb, the Barb was going to have to pay a tithe to the Cleric's church.

That's a neat little piece of character interaction. Good on them!

[Trask]

I have a few concerns.

I am not saying this is bad or wrong, but there are a couple of things as a DM I would want to address.

I think in this edition "recovery" in general is too easy - healing spells and hit dice, full HP recovered on a long rest... There is no incentive to keep out of damaging situations without using variant rules. There is little legacy of fights between short rests and even less after the end of the day.

Mounting exhaustion is one of the few mechanics that does add a major burden that takes time to fix. It is one of the few things that can mechanically act to create tension without the need to throw overpowered encounters in. I like that I can put my players in a position where they have to debate the trade off between another day of exhausting forced march up the mountains against more limited time to save the world when they get to their destination.

Making exhaustion too easy to shrug off for a party makes this harder.

I agree with the philosophy behind your argument but I dont think that a state of physical exhaustion should be on the same level as a curse, or an undead life drain. Putting it on the same level as poison and paralysis makes more sense.

And its not like its a breeze to remove. Its still 1 second level spell for each level of exhaustion.

[Willie the Duck]

I agree with the philosophy behind your argument but I dont think that a state of physical exhaustion should be on the same level as a curse, or an undead life drain. Putting it on the same level as poison and paralysis makes more sense.

And its not like its a breeze to remove. Its still 1 second level spell for each level of exhaustion.

OTOH, "Magic can replace your blood, can replace a missing limb, can replace anything but a good night's sleep"/"Magic can cure anything but staying up all night" is not outside of the genre fiction D&D vaguely emulates

[Theodoxus]

LOL - a can of Monster Energy Drink can allow you stay up all night with no (ok, few) issues. But magic? That's anathema!

[jas61292]

I have a few concerns.

I am not saying this is bad or wrong, but there are a couple of things as a DM I would want to address.

I think in this edition "recovery" in general is too easy - healing spells and hit dice, full HP recovered on a long rest... There is no incentive to keep out of damaging situations without using variant rules. There is little legacy of fights between short rests and even less after the end of the day.

Mounting exhaustion is one of the few mechanics that does add a major burden that takes time to fix. It is one of the few things that can mechanically act to create tension without the need to throw overpowered encounters in. I like that I can put my players in a position where they have to debate the trade off between another day of exhausting forced march up the mountains against more limited time to save the world when they get to their destination.

Making exhaustion too easy to shrug off for a party makes this harder.

I agree wholeheartedly. If every possible negative effect can be easily shrugged off by a cleric of a low level, you can't really use them for any lasting impact. Various curses and diseases sound cool, but due to magic, really don't work unless the party lacks any healthier.

Exhaustion is the one mechanic in the game that is there to say "mo, you cannot just shrug this off. You have to deal with it." I don't care if exhaustion is that specific mechanic, but I think there needs to be one, and in 5e, it is the only such thing.

[Willie the Duck]

LOL - a can of Monster Energy Drink can allow you stay up all night with no (ok, few) issues. But magic? That's anathema!

Well, yeah. There are all sorts of "magic can'ts" in fiction.
"magic can do anything but raise the dead" [obviously D&D doesn't hew to that one]
"magic can't make someone fall in love"
"magic can't extend your lifespan"
"magic can't this..."
"magic can't that..."

might even be a neat thread in a non 5e specific forum. :-P

[KorvinStarmast]

I have this same exact houserule because I think Exhaustion is way too harsh and they've made it too difficult to get rid of.

That's two of us. One of the few 5e things that makes me gag.

[Kane0]

Not only would I play a berserker, I'd play one with 3 levels of Cleric so I could remove my own Exhaustion. Order, Forge, Death, Knowledge, and Light domains would all work with it.

That actually sounds like a pretty neat combo. Note to self: Knowledge Cleric / Frenzy Barbarian.