Grrl Power IV: Constantly Expanded Universe

[Traab]

I keep scanning the background of these updates. Im waiting for the mothership to make its reappearance any second now. It would be kinda lame if she just makes a clean getaway. Would be kinda bad if she accidentally leads the mothership to earth though.

[sihnfahl]

I keep scanning the background of these updates. Im waiting for the mothership to make its reappearance any second now. It would be kinda lame if she just makes a clean getaway. Would be kinda bad if she accidentally leads the mothership to earth though.

Well, we already know that, if she does, Archon wins. So no stress there.

[Onyavar]

So, we already think Sciona's gate opened into a future where Harem is still alive. Right?

Which means, if Halo is now cruising just to the location of Earth; she will land in the distant future. I can already imagine her reaction to that "waaah i'm in the future!!!". She will (of course!) meet lots of new supers there, and maybe her children or even herself. Her older, oddly serious self who refuses to tell her any secrets htat happened in the forty years between.

In the future she can also be trained properly and quickly. Montage, anyone? Then, she is sent back in time by an older Krona who understands her reality altering abilities better...

And thus, arriving back in her earlier timeframe, she has earned her promotion, and the story only lasted a few days, and all the whiners in this thread are silenced.
The End. Or is it?

[halfeye]

So, we already think Sciona's gate opened into a future where Harem is still alive. Right?

Nope, the gate Sydney just opened is the time tunnel:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Time_Tunnel

Sadly, there are no photos on the wikipedia page of the tunnel from the series, or you'd see its likeness to the drawn image. The drawn image also looks like the tachyon tunnels from the computer game Tachyon.

So Sydney is probably going straight back were she came from, time travel or no (I'm guessing as much as anyone is, but the author notes mention '70s Sci-fi, and the time tunnel was the '60s, so I guess that's the reference, might be something else, but I don't know what, and I was watching TV Sci-fi in the '60s and '70s).

[Rogar Demonblud]

Sydney's assuming the original owners of the orbs went left to right when reading.

[sihnfahl]

Sadly, there are no photos on the wikipedia page of the tunnel from the series, or you'd see its likeness to the drawn image. The drawn image also looks like the tachyon tunnels from the computer game Tachyon.

No need, as the movie version has:this little gem

So Sydney is probably going straight back were she came from, time travel or no (I'm guessing as much as anyone is, but the author notes mention '70s Sci-fi, and the time tunnel was the '60s, so I guess that's the reference, might be something else, but I don't know what, and I was watching TV Sci-fi in the '60s and '70s).

Not straight; the previous 'good' transport. The squiggly destination is inferred to be the transport to Earth. Something went wrong, previous owner died, orbs ended up in ocean.

[halfeye]

No need, as the movie version has:this little gem


Not straight; the previous 'good' transport. The squiggly destination is inferred to be the transport to Earth. Something went wrong, previous owner died, orbs ended up in ocean.

Fair enough, the previous good, that's still the current timezone supposing it doesn't backtrack to when it arrived or left there.

Mind you, I still think Dabbler parked these a long time ago and forgot to renew the parking order, and they've picked Sydney as a new owner because they got bored of waiting, and Dabbler doesn't want to explain this tech to Earth scientists for reasons so she's not claiming them.

It's possible that the previous owner died, but then when and how? There isn't anything on Earth that could beat these.

[sihnfahl]

It's possible that the previous owner died, but then when and how? There isn't anything on Earth that could beat these.

No telling how long how. Granted, they were encased in coral, but that only says that it was long enough to be encased (a few years to a few decades). But doesn't say anything if the coral was slowly deteriorating, thus revealing them, or if they had been previously encased in earth, and eventually came to the surface...

As for how, inference. Previous user jumped to Earth. Something either happened in, or post, transit. Orbs caught up in gravity well, fell together into ocean.

As for 'on Earth', Dabbler and the supernaturals show that part's irrelevant. It all depends on how the timing and such.

Oh, as for why the Keys may be mentioned? Well, depending ... ever hear of the Chicxulub crater?

[lord_khaine]

Mind you, I still think Dabbler parked these a long time ago and forgot to renew the parking order, and they've picked Sydney as a new owner because they got bored of waiting, and Dabbler doesn't want to explain this tech to Earth scientists for reasons so she's not claiming them.

No this is just plain wrong. Though your of course welcome to continue believeling it in case it makes you happy.

But if these were Dabblers, then the rest of her tech should be equally advanced.
Its not.
And she are already refusing to explain her tech to earth scientists.

[Keltest]

Is this where the Benny Hill segment of the webcomic begins? Chasing Sydney all over the galaxy while Yakety Sax plays in the background?

[HandofShadows]

I don't think so. These new folks don't have a clue as to where Sydney is going or has gone. I see one of two ways. They manage to catch Sydney before she leaves or more likely to me when she comes back. With a small chance that Sydney gets home on her own. Noticed that the one alien looks a little like Max.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I'm half expecting the situation to develop in a darkly hilarious manner, wherein the ship crew notices signs of recent battle and finds no trace of Sydney, returns to report a mission failed, cue sad mood for all of five seconds when Deus calls Maxima about a certain swear-happy superhero that spontaneously appeared out of the hole in reality that just happened to form inside of one if his new experimental powerstations.

[Onyavar]

Aaaaand even more characters. Who all wear the same uniform. Which is oddly designed to proudly present personal features.

Hm, I will stop speculating how the story develops further. Though I would somehow bet that the ultra powerful alien spaceship tower can be wiped out with just a few antimass rounds.

Dave is a firm believer of "summon bigger fish", I think.

[HandofShadows]

I'm half expecting the situation to develop in a darkly hilarious manner, wherein the ship crew notices signs of recent battle and finds no trace of Sydney, returns to report a mission failed, cue sad mood for all of five seconds when Deus calls Maxima about a certain swear-happy superhero that spontaneously appeared out of the hole in reality that just happened to form inside of one if his new experimental powerstations.

If I had money I might well pay to see this happen. Just to see Dues loose out big time.

Aaaaand even more characters. Who all wear the same uniform. Which is oddly designed to proudly present personal features.

Hm, I will stop speculating how the story develops further. Though I would somehow bet that the ultra powerful alien spaceship tower can be wiped out with just a few antimass rounds.

Dave is a firm believer of "summon bigger fish", I think.

I think a point is being missed about the uniforms and the showing of "assets". Like the fact they ARE in uniform and that there is a clear rank structure and these people have very heavy weapons. It seems that Dabbles has some interesting friends because this ship looks like it could belong to a government. Which sorta makes me wonder why Dabbler is one Earth. I don't think she is up to anything nefarious (other than getting everyone she knows into her bed).

[Traab]

If I had money I might well pay to see this happen. Just to see Dues loose out big time.



I think a point is being missed about the uniforms and the showing of "assets". Like the fact they ARE in uniform and that there is a clear rank structure and these people have very heavy weapons. It seems that Dabbles has some interesting friends because this ship looks like it could belong to a government. Which sorta makes me wonder why Dabbler is one Earth. I don't think she is up to anything nefarious (other than getting everyone she knows into her bed).

As a galactic (and dimensional) adventurer, it only makes sense that she would interact with various governments. After all, just look at archon! She is now connected with a general, one of the most powerful supers on the planet, and through archon a seriously powerful local source. This could just be another group she has worked with in the past. Lets face it, if dabbler took off then a year from now called up max and said, "I need your help, blah blah blah" Do you really think she would refuse?

*EDIT* That being said, the fact that she knows time travel capable groups is an interesting one. Perhaps she helped fix a time disruption thingamijig at some point and they owed her a favor.

[lord_khaine]

*EDIT* That being said, the fact that she knows time travel capable groups is an interesting one. Perhaps she helped fix a time disruption thingamijig at some point and they owed her a favor.

Nothing says this group is capable of time travel.
For all we know Dabbler just called and asked "hey.. can you pick my friend up here in a week?"

[Traab]

Nothing says this group is capable of time travel.
For all we know Dabbler just called and asked "hey.. can you pick my friend up here in a week?"

Reread the second panel that has dialogue, he is talking about relative local time and how they are off target due to something called the fel. It sounds like they traveled through time to me, and got thrown a bit off course due to some sort of encounter they had while traveling. Short of Cora going, "Ok troops, its time for the CHRONONAUTS to make their move!" Its probably as flat out as we are going to get for right now. We likely will get more exposition later, but who knows? Dave may choose to leave it ambivalent.

[Lapak]

Nothing says this group is capable of time travel.
For all we know Dabbler just called and asked "hey.. can you pick my friend up here in a week?"

Any FTL travel in a universe with relativity necessarily means that time travel and effect-preceding-cause is possible, so they sorta CAN.

[Onyavar]

Nothing says this group is capable of time travel.
For all we know Dabbler just called and asked "hey.. can you pick my friend up here in a week?"

Nothing says this new (superior techno'd) group is NOT capable of time travel. And in this universe, even a low powered super like Krona has been seen at time travel. And also, remember how Harem was discombubblious in a way that suggested Sciona opened a time travel portal without intending it. So, I can't help but read the dialog in this strip as "yeah we just traveled through time but the reader needs to speculate a bit more". (It could also be intentionally misleading, but then I am even more curious for the actual explanation.)

the fact they ARE in uniform and that there is a clear rank structure and these people have very heavy weapons. It seems that Dabbles has some interesting friends because this ship looks like it could belong to a government. Which sorta makes me wonder why Dabbler is one Earth.

Oh, they look like 2 demons at the helm, 1 succubus as captain and an unidentified beefcake as #1.
Could just be the regular army of the "demon homeworld", a group who is either good friends with Dabbler, or who owed a favor. My assumption is still that Dabbler is some exiled demon space princess, so she has friends in odd+high places. Also, it fits her civilization (Whatever it is and however it is related to the Xevoarchy) to casually travel through space, dimensions and time however they please.

Looking at what David B. has stuffed into the story so far, a "good guys demonic spaceship" is hardly the strangest thing.

[Keltest]

Nothing says this new (superior techno'd) group is NOT capable of time travel. And in this universe, even a low powered super like Krona has been seen at time travel.

Krona explicitly doesn't do time travel. Her checkpoint power just sets everybody involved to a pre-set state should certain conditions be met.

[lord_khaine]

Reread the second panel that has dialogue, he is talking about relative local time and how they are off target due to something called the fel. It sounds like they traveled through time to me, and got thrown a bit off course due to some sort of encounter they had while traveling. Short of Cora going, "Ok troops, its time for the CHRONONAUTS to make their move!" Its probably as flat out as we are going to get for right now. We likely will get more exposition later, but who knows? Dave may choose to leave it ambivalent.

I dont need to reread anything. I perform a careful readthough the first time. The relative local time could just as easily be refering to how regular FTL travel risk messing with your time perception.
Because as mentioned earlier, there are no reason to mess up things further with adding time travel.

Any FTL travel in a universe with relativity necessarily means that time travel and effect-preceding-cause is possible, so they sorta CAN.

Except if the travel goes by wormhole.

Nothing says this new (superior techno'd) group is NOT capable of time travel. And in this universe, even a low powered super like Krona has been seen at time travel. And also, remember how Harem was discombubblious in a way that suggested Sciona opened a time travel portal without intending it. So, I can't help but read the dialog in this strip as "yeah we just traveled through time but the reader needs to speculate a bit more". (It could also be intentionally misleading, but then I am even more curious for the actual explanation.)

Nothing says that Deus, or Vehemence is NOT capable of time travel, and secretly both Sydney's and Maximas father

And low powered ???
Krona is a small scale reality warper. She is extremely powerful.
She is just also kinda low key, and fragile.

[Lapak]

Except if the travel goes by wormhole.

Even if the travel goes by wormhole. It's important to remember that relativity means that there is no such thing as a 'real' or 'static' frame of reference, yet every frame of reference perceives light as traveling at c. If you have two frames of reference traveling at sufficient speed relative to one another, and it's possible to move between them at FTL speeds (no matter how that it accomplished) it is possible to see something happen, then travel to where it happens and arrive before it does (breaking causality.) This doesn't really come up at local distances to any perceptible degree, but it absolutely comes up when you throw galactic distances into the mix.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Even if the travel goes by wormhole. It's important to remember that relativity means that there is no such thing as a 'real' or 'static' frame of reference, yet every frame of reference perceives light as traveling at c. If you have two frames of reference traveling at sufficient speed relative to one another, and it's possible to move between them at FTL speeds (no matter how that it accomplished) it is possible to see something happen, then travel to where it happens and arrive before it does (breaking causality.) This doesn't really come up at local distances to any perceptible degree, but it absolutely comes up when you throw galactic distances into the mix.

Traveling faster than light without breaking frame of reference, does not break causality.
I would argue that breaking causality via relativity is a mathematical contrivance in the first place, but it's beyond the scope of the matter here.

A wormhole, or a hypothetical 'linear displacement' drive system that allows a change of position without change of velocity, for a net 'travel speed' that is faster than light, cannot be used to do what you're describing. Even the screwy math of relativity only accomplishes a change in the relative passage of time between two different reference frames, a ship that changes position in the same reference frame experiences no new effects.

[Ibrinar]

Do you have any source for that? Take this explanation http://www.physicsmatt.com/blog/2016...es-time-travel for ftl comm breaking causality, as far as I can tell that applies to instant teleportation.

[5a Violista]

A wormhole, or a hypothetical 'linear displacement' drive system that allows a change of position without change of velocity, for a net 'travel speed' that is faster than light, cannot be used to do what you're describing. Even the screwy math of relativity only accomplishes a change in the relative passage of time between two different reference frames, a ship that changes position in the same reference frame experiences no new effects.

Wikipedia explains two different theoretical ways a wormhole (or a ring of wormholes) could potentially cause time travel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole#Time_travel

Also, I heard someone at one time explaining a proof of how having two different wormholes where one's relative movement is not perpendicular to the first could cause time travel. I'll see if I could find that proof online, as soon as I figure out what search terms I should use.

[halfeye]

Do you have any source for that? Take this explanation http://www.physicsmatt.com/blog/2016...es-time-travel for ftl comm breaking causality, as far as I can tell that applies to instant teleportation.

Looking at that one, they seem to be saying that causality is broken because the ship sees the light from the arriving signal before the light from the transmitted signal. I'm not understanding how that's a breach of causality. They see some light, it is a signal, but of itself it means nothing (to me at least).

[Ibrinar]

I don't think I can give a better explanation than the site but just about it breaking causality I can point out a line: " In fact, if the ship had a FTL phone set up in the right way, they could call Earth before Earth placed the call. " according to this their reaction to it could reach Earth before earth has done the thing they are reacting to.
(And yeah that part of the explanation isn't very clear, should probably have chosen another one.)

[Sean Mirrsen]

Do you have any source for that? Take this explanation http://www.physicsmatt.com/blog/2016...es-time-travel for ftl comm breaking causality, as far as I can tell that applies to instant teleportation.

Pretty much all examples I've seen constructed so far of FTL comms violating causality don't really hold up to scrutiny.

Digging a little deeper into the 'how', let's look at the ship in that example 'seeing' the events happen.
So, two events of import, the call being sent and the call being received, are separated by very little time and a lot of space. Let's theorize a true instant communications method to make space irrelevant, since we're talking about time. Quantum entanglement, what have you. So the two events are now not separated by any time at all.

Next two events of import, the ship 'seeing' the two other events happen. How do we make sure that the intervening space does not create issues? Same problem, same solution - instant communication. In lieu of having the ship's sensing capabilities being thrown off by the differences in time flow rate and space distortions, let's just have the two sites, origin and destination, directly report the call being sent and received in the same instant it happens, to the ship. It's all quite sensible so far, and within any reasonable sci-fi setting.

So... what happens now?

In the same instant of time, not even milliseconds apart depending on electronics used in the future, all six events should happen. Call is sent, received, and both events are reported and both reports are received. Time is no longer relevant.
The only remaining variables are the distance between two points, and the different frame of reference of the ship.

Does the ship still receive reports at different times?

If it doesn't, why is that? Has something fundamentally changed in the setup? Nothing was made slower, indeed the communications were made as far faster than light as possible. Nothing was made unreasonable either, all changes were made to reduce the possibility of error. Had the underlying calculations assumed something incorrectly?

And if it does, then why? Both reports are sent, objectively, at the same time. Both of them take no time to reach the destination. With both points being in the same reference frame relative to the ship, they are both in the same relative time as well, separated by distance that does not matter to instant communication.

Most importantly, it is very important to remember that relativity works both ways - it is relative. With instant communication, even if some contrivance of mathematics allows the ship to observe one of two simultaneous but distant events before the other, their attempt at communicating back would reach the points they are observing at the same times relative to their observation. It's like that weird principle in optics that says you can't light a fire with moonlight, no matter how big a lens you use - because that little bit of paper you focus it on is shining right back at the moon, and it can't get hotter than the moon's surface.

[halfeye]

I don't think I can give a better explanation than the site but just about it breaking causality I can point out a line: " In fact, if the ship had a FTL phone set up in the right way, they could call Earth before Earth placed the call. " according to this their reaction to it could reach Earth before earth has done the thing they are reacting to.

That would break causality, but it didn't happen, and if it did it would be fiction, not evidence.

I'm not sure that it makes sense that they could do that though. It could be that the hyperspace phone only works for sources and destinations approximately synchronised in speed (maybe less than half a light speed different? or something a little more complicated?).

[Ibrinar]

@Sean Mirrsen: Events being simultaneous in all reference frames isn't really a thing in general relativity so making an argument based on it doesn't work. It happens because for the ship one can happen before the other while the others consider them simultaneous. Your argument assumes that the three way simultaneity exist, I think you are basically begging the question.