The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed - Coming in December and available for pre-order now
Results 1 to 26 of 26
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Durzan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Idaho
    Gender
    Male

    Default If an Ooze managed to get an Intelligence Score...

    If an ooze managed to get an intelligence score (or if there was a Ooze creature entry, legit or homebrew, with an intelligence score), would it retain its immunity to mind-affecting effects like Undead and Constructs?

    Asking mainly out of curiosity... and because I've seen at least one Ooze that had an intelligence score (granted, it was homebrew, but the question still stands).
    Last edited by Durzan; 2018-06-21 at 12:46 PM.
    Wheel of Time 3.5e Homebrew
    My Original D20 System: Forgotten Prophecies RPG

    When it comes to GMing, World-Building is one of the things that I do best, provided I have friends to bounce ideas off of.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Malimar's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    a nice pond

    Default Re: If an Ooze managed to get an Intelligence Score...

    Quote Originally Posted by Durzan View Post
    If an ooze managed to get an intelligence score (or if there was a Ooze creature entry, legit or homebrew, with an intelligence score), would it retain its immunity to mind-affecting effects like Undead and Constructs?

    Asking mainly out of curiosity... and because I've seen at least one Ooze that had an intelligence score (granted, it was homebrew, but the question still stands).
    Dungeonscape's Sentry Ooze template grants an Int score. It specifically calls out "No longer mindless", but grants a +4 bonus to Will saves vs mind-affecting.

    Last time I asked here, the consensus was "Mindless" and "no Intelligence score" are synonymous, so the general rule seems to be that if a creature gains an Intelligence score then it loses Mindless.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
     
    The Viscount's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2012

    Default Re: If an Ooze managed to get an Intelligence Score...

    I would say no. Oozes are like Vermin in that their immunity to mind affecting effects stems from being mindless and having no int, not from a simple immunity like Constructs and Undead.
    The closest thing I have to textual support is the Sentry Ooze template, which grants an intelligence score and removes the mindless trait. This certainly seems enough to guide an overall ruling on the matter, though someone who is arguing from strictest RAW may say otherwise.
    Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    Only playing Tier 1s is like only eating in five-star restaurants [...] sometimes I just want a cheeseburger and some frogurt. Why limit yourself?
    Awards

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Necroticplague's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: If an Ooze managed to get an Intelligence Score...

    Quote Originally Posted by Durzan View Post
    If an ooze managed to get an intelligence score (or if there was a Ooze creature entry, legit or homebrew, with an intelligence score), would it retain its immunity to mind-affecting effects like Undead and Constructs?
    No.

    An ooze's immunity comes from the Mindless ability. If we look under Intelligence, it says this:

    Quote Originally Posted by srd
    . A creature with no Intelligence score is mindless, an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions. It has immunity to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) and automatically fails Intelligence checks.
    So a creature with Int isn't mindless. Thus, it doesn't have those immunities.
    Avatar by TinyMushroom.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    frogglesmash's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If an Ooze managed to get an Intelligence Score...

    Ooze Masters (Masters of the Wild), and Reason Stealers (MMII) both retain their immunity to mind affecting effects. However those are both from 3.0 sources, so make of that what you will.
    Last edited by frogglesmash; 2018-06-21 at 01:22 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Nifft's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If an Ooze managed to get an Intelligence Score...

    IMHO it's quite reasonable to remove the Mindless-granted immunity when a creature gains an Int score, but RAW those seem to be separate things, and a normal Ooze thus gains immunity from two separate sources:
    - Source one: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbi...m#nonabilities
    - Source two: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#oozeType

    Furthermore, due to poor editing, the Ooze traits say:

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
    Since the immunity clause isn't dependent on the no-Intelligence clause, removing the former would not negate the latter.

    It should have read like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Better SRD
    Mindless: Because oozes have no Intelligence score, they gain immunity to all mind-affecting effects (including charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).

    It should be the case that the ooze traits are merely repeating / summarizing the nonability text, and that the mind-affecting immunity has a single source (intelligence nonability).

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If an Ooze managed to get an Intelligence Score...

    It tends to be moot - most of the things that grant sentience sapience also strip away mind-affecting immunity.

    Pathfinder has Coaxing Spell to help your enchanter deal with oozes and vermin also.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2018-06-21 at 05:07 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Nifft's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If an Ooze managed to get an Intelligence Score...

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    It tends to be moot - most of the things that grant sentience also strip away mind-affecting immunity.
    Totally agree. In practice, it's not very relevant.

    Still, the thread doesn't mention any particular mechanism, so it might be technically relevant (even if any sane DM might tend to ignore that technicality).

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If an Ooze managed to get an Intelligence Score...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Totally agree. In practice, it's not very relevant.

    Still, the thread doesn't mention any particular mechanism, so it might be technically relevant (even if any sane DM might tend to ignore that technicality).
    Yeah there's probably a corner case out there somewhere, though I'm not aware of any myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Nifft's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If an Ooze managed to get an Intelligence Score...

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Yeah there's probably a corner case out there somewhere, though I'm not aware of any myself.
    The OP mentions homebrew, so knowledge of official sources might not be sufficient.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Goaty14's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If an Ooze managed to get an Intelligence Score...

    A summoning ooze has an INT score.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Going to see how well I am at making homebrew.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    killing and eating a bag of rats is probably kosher.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking), and your humility is stunning

    "I hope that you don't get the impression that I would munchkin the rules if I was in a D&D world IRL... Even though I totally would" -Myself

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2013

    Default Re: If an Ooze managed to get an Intelligence Score...

    There are a few oozes with an Int, like the Conflagration Ooze in MM3. I do not think we ever came to a conclusion about an immunity, though-seems most people have ruled it vulnerable once you lose Mindless.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Nifft's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If an Ooze managed to get an Intelligence Score...

    Quote Originally Posted by ViperMagnum357 View Post
    There are a few oozes with an Int, like the Conflagration Ooze in MM3. I do not think we ever came to a conclusion about an immunity, though-seems most people have ruled it vulnerable once you lose Mindless.
    That is the reasonable thing to do.

    I just suspect it's not what RAW actually says.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Thurbane's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Terra Australis
    Gender
    Male

    Exclamation Re: If an Ooze managed to get an Intelligence Score...

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    It tends to be moot - most of the things that grant sentience sapience also strip away mind-affecting immunity.
    As loathe as I am to point out stat blocks as potential RAW, I'm just putting this here for consideration. Make of it what you will.

    http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...d/eo/20060922a

    Spoiler
    Show
    Fiendish Gelatinous Cube Monk CR 12
    Fiendish gelatinous cube monk 10
    LE Huge ooze (extraplanar)
    Init -4; Senses blindsight 60 ft.; Listen -1, Spot +8
    Languages None

    AC 6, touch 6, flat-footed 6; Deflect Arrows
    (-2 size, -4 Dex, +2 class)
    hp 193 (14 HD); DR 10/magic
    Immune critical hits, electricity, flanking, gaze attacks, illusions, mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects), normal disease, paralysis, poison, polymorph, sleep, stunning, visual effects, and other attack forms that rely on sight
    Resist cold 20, fire 20; improved evasion; SR 19
    Fort +16, Ref +4, Will +5 (+7 against enchantments)

    Speed 45 ft. (9 squares)
    Melee slam +9 (1d6+1 plus 1d6 acid) or
    Melee unarmed strike +9/+4 (4d6+1 plus 1d6 acid) or
    Melee unarmed strike +9/+9/+4 (4d6+1 plus 1d6 acid) with flurry of blows
    Space 15 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
    Base Atk +10; Grp +19
    Atk Options Improved Trip, Stunning Fist; acid, paralysis, smite good 1/day (+14 damage), ki strike (lawful, magic)
    Special Actions engulf, wholeness of body (heal 20/day)

    Abilities Str 12, Dex 3, Con 26, Int 3, Wis 1, Cha 1
    SA acid, engulf, paralysis, smite good 1/day (+14 damage), ki strike (lawful, magic)
    SQ slow fall 50 ft., transparent
    Feats Alertness, Deflect ArrowsB, Improved Toughness, Improved TripB, Improved Unarmed StrikeB, Inured to Energy (cold), Inured to Energy (fire), Iron Will, Stunning FistB
    Skills Hide -12, Listen -1, Spot +8

    Acid (Ex) The fiendish gelatinous cube's body produces a corrosive substance. Any creature that strikes or touches the cube with its body, or that grapples it, automatically takes 1d6 points of acid damage. A creature takes damage from this ability only once per turn. This cube's acid does not harm metal or stone.

    Engulf (Ex) The fiendish gelatinous cube can simply mow down Large or smaller creatures as a standard action. It cannot make a slam attack during a round in which it engulfs. The cube merely moves over the opponents, affecting as many as it can cover. Opponents can make attacks of opportunity against the cube, but any creature that does so is not entitled to a saving throw. A creature that does not attempt an attack of opportunity must succeed on a DC 14 Reflex save or be engulfed. On a success, it is pushed back or aside (opponent's choice) as the cube moves forward. Engulfed creatures are subject to the cube's paralysis and acid, and are considered to be grappled and trapped within its body. The save DC is Strength-based and includes a +1 racial bonus.

    Paralysis (Ex) Anyone hit by the cube's slam or engulf attack must succeed on a DC 20 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 3d6 rounds. The cube can automatically engulf a paralyzed opponent. The save DC is Constitution-based.

    Transparent (Ex) Fiendish gelatinous cubes are hard to see, even under ideal conditions, and it takes a DC 15 Spot check to notice one. Creatures who fail to notice the cube and walk into it are automatically engulfed.

    Quote Originally Posted by ViperMagnum357 View Post
    There are a few oozes with an Int, like the Conflagration Ooze in MM3. I do not think we ever came to a conclusion about an immunity, though-seems most people have ruled it vulnerable once you lose Mindless.
    Here's some more examples:

    • Assassin Jelly: Int 10; listed as immune to mind effects
    • Conflgration Ooze MM3: Int 9; not listed as immune to mind effects
    • Living Ferroplasm: Int 8; not listed as immune to mind effects
    • Ooze, Cesspit (Cty): Int 7; listed as immune to mind effects
    • Summoning Ooze (MM3): Int 10, not listed as immune to mind effects

    ...so as we can see, no internal consistency from WotC (unsurprising).

    Saying that someone reading RAW differently than you is "home brewing or house ruling, but that's fine" doesn't make you right, it just makes you seem pompous.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    May 2016

    Default Re: If an Ooze managed to get an Intelligence Score...

    I would personally rule that they keep the immunity, just because I think they're supposed to be completely bizarre and incomprehensible. Also, if someone wanted to play an ooze as a PC, I'd let them keep immunity to mind-affecting, just because oozes are already mechanically challenged, and taking away one of their few nice things seems mean.

    But I was never very clear on the RAW/RAI for this. It's such a narrow, specific topic that was probably really low on the designers' priority list, so I doubt that it was really fully thought out. And, if it was, I'll bet you can find cases where different writers or designers wrote with different assumptions.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Thurbane's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Terra Australis
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If an Ooze managed to get an Intelligence Score...

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay View Post
    I would personally rule that they keep the immunity, just because I think they're supposed to be completely bizarre and incomprehensible. Also, if someone wanted to play an ooze as a PC, I'd let them keep immunity to mind-affecting, just because oozes are already mechanically challenged, and taking away one of their few nice things seems mean.
    I'd probably rule that way at my table.

    As far as I'm concerned, it's a trait of the ooze type, not significantly different from the similar immunity that Constructs and Undead get. Yes, I am aware it's specifically called out as Mindless and linked to Int or lack thereof, but as you can see from my post above, the RAW is fairly open for interpretation. It's firmly in "Ask your DM" territory IMHO, unless a monster entry calls out otherwise.

    Saying that someone reading RAW differently than you is "home brewing or house ruling, but that's fine" doesn't make you right, it just makes you seem pompous.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Durzan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Idaho
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If an Ooze managed to get an Intelligence Score...

    Clarification, this is both RAW and RAI in nature. Seems like RAW is contradictory on a general consensus... as some of you sourced oozes with intelligence scores that had no immunities to mine-affecting effects, while others did.
    Wheel of Time 3.5e Homebrew
    My Original D20 System: Forgotten Prophecies RPG

    When it comes to GMing, World-Building is one of the things that I do best, provided I have friends to bounce ideas off of.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    OgresAreCute's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Tokyo, New Jersey
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: If an Ooze managed to get an Intelligence Score...

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    ...so as we can see, no internal consistency from WotC (unsurprising).
    Can I sig this?

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Thurbane's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Terra Australis
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If an Ooze managed to get an Intelligence Score...

    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    Can I sig this?
    Absolutely.

    Saying that someone reading RAW differently than you is "home brewing or house ruling, but that's fine" doesn't make you right, it just makes you seem pompous.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    May 2016

    Default Re: If an Ooze managed to get an Intelligence Score...

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    As loathe as I am to point out stat blocks as potential RAW, I'm just putting this here for consideration. Make of it what you will.

    http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...d/eo/20060922a




    Here's some more examples:

    • Assassin Jelly: Int 10; listed as immune to mind effects
    • Conflgration Ooze MM3: Int 9; not listed as immune to mind effects
    • Living Ferroplasm: Int 8; not listed as immune to mind effects
    • Ooze, Cesspit (Cty): Int 7; listed as immune to mind effects
    • Summoning Ooze (MM3): Int 10, not listed as immune to mind effects

    ...so as we can see, no internal consistency from WotC (unsurprising).
    Well, to be fair to the designers, they don't always list out all the creature's abilities in the stat block. In fact, if you look at the three you've listed here that aren't called out as immune to mind-affecting, none of them has their other type traits spelled out, either: for example, none of them has "immune to poison" or "not subject to critical hits" listed, but presumably nobody disputes that they still have these type traits. They just have "ooze traits" listed as shorthand.

    So there aren't any oozes that unambiguously lack immunity to mind-affecting effects (except oozes with the Sentry Ooze template, of course). In light of that, I think the balance of the evidence is in favor of intelligent oozes being immune to mind-affecting.

    ----

    A bit of a tangent: there are four creature types (construct, elemental, ooze and undead) that usually have their type traits listed in the "Special Qualities" box in that shorthand form. Usually, taking a template that changes your type means you give up your old type traits (here), but since these four types have their type traits listed as special qualities, and most templates have language that says you get to keep all your special qualities, these four creature types get to keep their original type traits.

    EDIT: Creatures of the plant type also have their type traits listed in the Special Qualities box. I missed that one.
    Last edited by Blue Jay; 2018-06-23 at 07:17 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Jay R's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If an Ooze managed to get an Intelligence Score...

    Since they exist only as a DM's unique invention, you'd need to ask the DM who created and used them.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    May 2016

    Default Re: If an Ooze managed to get an Intelligence Score...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Since they exist only as a DM's unique invention, you'd need to ask the DM who created and used them.
    There are oozes with Intelligence scores in official sources, dude. We've been talking about them over the past several posts here.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Jay R's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If an Ooze managed to get an Intelligence Score...

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay View Post
    There are oozes with Intelligence scores in official sources, dude. We've been talking about them over the past several posts here.
    Yes, but that wasn't the question asked.
    "If an ooze managed to get an intelligence score...?"
    "... and because I've seen at least one Ooze that had an intelligence score (granted, it was homebrew...)..."

    If an ooze "managed to get an Intelligence score," that means that it didn't have one originally, when taken from the sourcebook.

    Of course for something in an official source, read the official source.

    There are only two reason for something to have immunity to mind-affecting effects.
    1. Because it has no Intelligence score, or
    2. Because it has been given that ability explicitly.
    If it's in a sourcebook, and has an Intelligence score, then check the source to see if it's been given that ability explicitly.

    But back to the original question - an ooze that managed to get an intelligence score. That means one that didn't come with one in the sourcebook. And the example is homebrew.

    In that case, just like the other, you check with the source to see if it's been given that ability explicitly. The only change is that the source is the DM.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    May 2016

    Default Re: If an Ooze managed to get an Intelligence Score...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Yes, but that wasn't the question asked.
    "If an ooze managed to get an intelligence score...?"
    "... and because I've seen at least one Ooze that had an intelligence score (granted, it was homebrew...)..."

    If an ooze "managed to get an Intelligence score," that means that it didn't have one originally, when taken from the sourcebook.
    You cut out the part of the question that asked for examples of intelligent oozes from official sources.

    But even if we ignore that, how does "official oozes with Intelligence scores retain immunity" not answer the question asked?

    Also note that some of the examples discussed were oozes that "managed to get Int scores" from templates: there was a gelatinous cube with the Fiendish template, and then there's the Sentry Ooze template as a counter-example.

    There's also the Dragon magazine spell awaken ooze which takes away the immunity, but changes type to Aberration.

    So it's just wrong to say that they only exist as unique DM inventions.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    frogglesmash's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If an Ooze managed to get an Intelligence Score...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Yes, but that wasn't the question asked.
    "If an ooze managed to get an intelligence score...?"
    "... and because I've seen at least one Ooze that had an intelligence score (granted, it was homebrew...)..."

    If an ooze "managed to get an Intelligence score," that means that it didn't have one originally, when taken from the sourcebook.

    Of course for something in an official source, read the official source.

    There are only two reason for something to have immunity to mind-affecting effects.
    1. Because it has no Intelligence score, or
    2. Because it has been given that ability explicitly.
    If it's in a sourcebook, and has an Intelligence score, then check the source to see if it's been given that ability explicitly.

    But back to the original question - an ooze that managed to get an intelligence score. That means one that didn't come with one in the sourcebook. And the example is homebrew.

    In that case, just like the other, you check with the source to see if it's been given that ability explicitly. The only change is that the source is the DM.
    Reason Stealers actually gain and lose their Int score repeatedly.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Durzan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Idaho
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If an Ooze managed to get an Intelligence Score...

    Quote Originally Posted by frogglesmash View Post
    Reason Stealers actually gain and lose their Int score repeatedly.
    Ha ha... that sounds like a fun monster to play with as DM.
    Wheel of Time 3.5e Homebrew
    My Original D20 System: Forgotten Prophecies RPG

    When it comes to GMing, World-Building is one of the things that I do best, provided I have friends to bounce ideas off of.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •