Results 241 to 270 of 385
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2018-06-30, 10:20 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
Re: What to Watch Out for in Your Players
This thread hasn't been closed yet? Cool. I love how cool our moderators are, and how well we can (usually) manage to talk about sensitive issues.
Out of respect for this, I'm going to try really hard not to be my usual self here.
But I am none the less very... confused.
So, can anyone please explain to me exactly what the difference is between not wanting sex to feature in their games, or rape, or religion, or homosexuality, or, heck, my personal favorite, "characters who are not from around here"? How is attempting to exclude one subset of characters or characteristics or concepts from a game substantially different from another? How is someone being uncomfortable with the topic of nymphomania or automobile accidents or spiders different from someone being uncomfortable with romantic affection between boys, or someone being cross-gender? Why is not accommodating someone's fear of spiders considered being a ****, but even bringing up that a subset of LGBT in a game makes you uncomfortable makes you a ****? How is this not a double standard?
For those who talk about it being "hurtful" - if the GM said, "I have never seen X done well, so please don't", would that still be hurtful? If the GM said that they have never seen religion done well, and ask that everyone at their table play atheists / ask that religion didn't come up / have a game world with no religion, is that hurtful to those for whom religion is a major part of their identity? Heck, what if their world doesn't have gender at all? Is that hurtful?
And what's with this "right to exist" stuff? Darwinian teaches that no-one has a "right" to exist - you exist if you can, you become extinct if you can't. When did people start overturning Darwin and claiming that things had a "right" to exist? Outside of religion, I see no way to justify the notion that the human race has any right to exist whatsoever. Does anyone have anything that disagrees with this?
I... I cannot agree strongly enough with this. I treat people as people. In no small part because of this, I have gotten far too much attention for my taste, and have had to turn down far too many girls (and no small number of guys!) who became enamored of me. Including ones where it was rather obvious to me that I did not otherwise match their tastes.
Thank you for that bit of humor in this rather tense thread!Last edited by Quertus; 2018-06-30 at 10:21 AM.
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2018-06-30, 10:47 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2016
- Location
- Lake Superior
- Gender
Re: What to Watch Out for in Your Players
I'm no philosopher or social psychology professor, but near as I can tell, it's a backlash against years of intolerance. At least in the developed world, we live in a society where homosexuality is accepted. That's a good thing. People get really hurt when it is not accepted; I live 20 miles away from the school that the Nabozny case was levelled against.
I get that people have personal preferences. However, disliking homosexual behavior on a personal level looks a heck of a lot like the old bigotry when it's expressed, which is why the more progressive elements of society work so hard to push the idea that everyone has to accept homosexual behavior in others.
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2018-06-30, 10:47 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
- Location
- Southern Germany
- Gender
Re: What to Watch Out for in Your Players
Um, I have something that disagrees with this, I like to call it "The whole of modern civilization", or at the very least the last couple centuries.
This shouldn't even be a dividing issue between religious and agnostic people, whether you look at Jesus Christ, the Bill of Rights, the Human Rights Declaration or whatever floats your boat, the whole concept of "Yeah, maybe nature designed us to be ***** to each other, but let's try to be at least somewhat better than that so everything is better for everyone" is kind of a core concept for what we call society today.
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2018-06-30, 12:51 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
- Gender
Re: What to Watch Out for in Your Players
Agreed. Darwin is the law of beasts not humans. Mother Nature is a jerk that can go screw herself. I mean have you seen some of the horrifying things some insects and fungus do? If thats nature, I don't want to be natural. I know not what gender Artifice is and do not presume to know, but I realize more and more that its my friend.
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2018-06-30, 01:55 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: What to Watch Out for in Your Players
It's almost like biology and ethics are different fields, and that a descriptive process in population biology doesn't have a lot of bearing on ethical principles.
That said, if you do want to form a connection it's worth noting that the particular population being looked at (humans) are an intensely smart, intensely social species that has been successful mostly by building cohesive societies that allow for heavy specialization, a trait dependent on both high intelligence and neuroplasticity (unless you dramatically change a lot of other traits). Establishing concepts like individual human rights, starting with right to existence, is an example of human adaptations at work.I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2018-06-30, 03:50 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2016
Re: What to Watch Out for in Your Players
I kind of like nature myself. Both the beauty and the danger is wonderous. We like to think we can conquer it, but stand near a tornado or in a hurricane and that thought disappears quickly.
When a single tsunami can eliminate as many people as the whole Syrian war, it is kind of telling. And yet, laying under colored leaves of a giant majestic oak deep in the woods with a girl cuddled at my side is one of my happiest memories.
Humanity will never come close to creating anything that rivals the awesomeness of nature.
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2018-06-30, 04:08 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2013
Re: What to Watch Out for in Your Players
Well cool, on that basis I should just murder you and impregnate your women because then I win at being the most Darwinian.
More seriously, we can view situations through the lens of evolutionary biology in order to understand them in one way. Then we can look at them societally or philosophically or whatever to understand them in a different manner. In some ways, yeah of course no-one has any 'right to exist' because the universe doesn't care about insignificant blobs of self-organising matter on a rock speck in the vast uncaring depths of space. But in another sense, we look at things from the human perspective and as hopefully good people and decent citizens we acknowledge each other's right to exist as people.
Darwin isn't a particularly useful yardstick for how people should behave or who adds value to society IMO.
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2018-06-30, 05:34 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
Re: What to Watch Out for in Your Players
Sigh. I figured if I didn't include some of my usual tone, people might assume my account had been hacked. So, let me try again: what do people mean when they use the phrase "right to exist"? The closest references I have are abortion-centric "right to life", and my aforementioned Darwinian "no species has a right to anything". Since people don't seem to be saying anything relevant to either of these, what do they mean by the phrase "right to exist"?
(and I'm quite glad that this was the most contentious part of my post)
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2018-06-30, 05:57 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2006
- Location
- NYC
- Gender
Re: What to Watch Out for in Your Players
I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2018-07-01, 10:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2016
Re: What to Watch Out for in Your Players
See, they equate "sexual preference" to gender, race and other inherent traits that "cannot be controlled" and as such should be overlooked by everyone equally.
Their opponents are of the belief that it is, in fact, a choice. That it is a behavior rather than inherent and, as such, needs to be discouraged.
"Right to exist," in this instance means "we have a right to be gay and should be allowed to express that openly and without censorship."
The problem is that certain religious texts openly forbid it. There are also people who have actual physical reactions to seeing it in public such that they actually become physically ill. Whether such reactions are learned or natural I have seen no research on the subject.
There is also a fear that openly allowing or supporting it will lead to an artificial social increase in the population where people who aren't gay become gay because it's cool. There are also many more besides.
Some of those fears and beliefs may be unfounded, but they are held nontheless. Whether it is fully inherent in a person's genetic code or whether being gay is a learned or chosen behavior is hotly contested by both sides, so "right to exist" in this instance is "right for me to be gay and express it openly in any and all forums." In this case it is at the D&D table.
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2018-07-01, 11:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2013
Re: What to Watch Out for in Your Players
See I don't really have much sympathy for homophobes' precious feelings being hurt by interacting with openly gay people. I can't really think of anything specific I'd feel comfortable censoring from a gay player bar sex stuff which quite frankly I'd want to censor with my current players anyway because I really don't need to be picturing them getting nasty.
But I may be OK with a homophobe sitting at the table if they're not making homophobic remarks. It's happened before anyway, I played this game for like 30+ years and homophobia used to be pretty mainstream acceptable.
EDIT
I mean people can have a 'no gays' policy if they like, everyone is entitled to have wrong opinions. It sounds like a group I wouldn't want to join but then I wouldn't want to be in a group where everyone is 16 to 18 either.
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2018-07-01, 11:36 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2016
Re: What to Watch Out for in Your Players
I can not imagine wanting to interact with, let alone game with, a person who pretends to be physically ill at the sight of openly gay people. That's such a ridiculous concept.
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2018-07-01, 11:51 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2017
- Location
- Singapore
- Gender
Re: What to Watch Out for in Your Players
SpoilerI am a: Chaotic Good Human Bard(14th Level)
Ability Scores:
Strength-10
Dexterity-15
Constitution-12
Intelligence-6
Wisdom-9
Charisma-23
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2018-07-02, 01:29 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
- Location
- Southern Germany
- Gender
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2018-07-02, 02:46 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2016
Re: What to Watch Out for in Your Players
That is actually not the position of all advocates of the freedom of expression for gay people (also, sadly, even what gender being inherent means is being contested...)
Cause while I do believe that I'm choosing expressing my feelings freely, and not choosing what those are, whether I was born this way or I learned it ultimately is a red herring. What matters should be - am I hurting people with this choice?
And the answer is, quite evidently, no. So any question on forbidding it will be the question of forbidding an ultimately harmless form of expression, on the basis of some peoples religion, in a world where we supposedly value individuality or freedom of religion.
I cannot in good conscience consider any of that an even remotely acceptable infringement on my freedom of expression as a person.
And just because people hold a genuine fear doesn't give them any right to be catered to. Phobias are genuinely held fears, too, but if I went around trying to forbid beer (or drinking beer in public), I'd still be an idiot. Even though the stuff makes me physically sick and panick from smelling (No I don't know how I survive Germany). That reasoning is ridiculous. Or as Dara O'Brien once said "Fear of zombies could be incredibly high, doesn't mean we should make politics according to it".
Beyond that all of those fears are fully unfounded, and do not survive critical examination let alone testing.Last edited by Floret; 2018-07-02 at 02:48 AM.
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2018-07-02, 02:48 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2016
Re: What to Watch Out for in Your Players
Because the alternative is even more ridiculous for me to consider. I come from a religiously conservative background in the rural South and the idea of a person literally becoming physically ill over gay people is still ludicrous to me, it's like something out a bad comedy.
A player who actually was that squeamish would definitely be something to watch out for, because who knows what else would make them ill and I don't want players to throw on my things.
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2018-07-02, 03:15 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
- Location
- Southern Germany
- Gender
Re: What to Watch Out for in Your Players
Okay, to play devil's advocate here: If someone really came to me and said "I can't help it! I don't have anything against gay people but even the thought of encountering someone I know is gay makes me physically ill, scream and trying to run away! I know it's highly irrational, I've been seeing a therapist about it and taking medication" or something like that, okay, I guess I could personally accept that and ask everyone around the table if they were okay to accomodate that person.
But that's not what we're talking about here, is it? We're talking about "I don't accept gay people so I don't want to encounter any in gaming", and no, I still from the bottom of my heart do not feel this is something any table should have to accomodate or make any compromises for. And yes, this goes for other things too, if someone told me "I don't want to encounter any characters who are in any way religious in the game!", yeah, sorry, that's not a reasonable request to make.Last edited by Delta; 2018-07-02 at 03:16 AM.
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2018-07-02, 04:30 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2017
Re: What to Watch Out for in Your Players
If someone has a phobia of something, be it spiders, water, beer, dogs, children, men, women, social interaction, gay people, transgender people or anything else. The absolute worst thing to do, either as a sufferer yourself or as someone dealing with someone suffering from a phobia, is to indulge that irrational fear. Because if you do the your brain gets more and more used to reacting to the triggering situation irrationally. If someone has recognized that their phobia is irrational and is trying to get over it by exposure, I'd accommodate them. But I'm not going to tiptoe around a fear they refuse to face, I'm not their shrink. I don't have to listen to mad ranting about how being gay is a choice when that's clearly untrue. Incidentally, if you're a homophobe who thinks they could choose to be gay or that a straight person could be "converted" to homosexuality, that probably means you have some homosexual tendencies you're refusing to examine, which would explain where your fear comes from.
There's also the issue of how people incorrectly or dishonestly identifying themselves as gay would be a problem outside of the bigot's assumption that there's something inherently bad or wrong about homosexuality. Once you drop that assumption it really stops being a meaningful concern. And no "religious texts say" is irrelevant. People who put faith in religious texts can't even agree on which texts are real and what they really say, never mind the growing number of people who assert that all religious texts are equally bunk. The principle of secularism holds that governments have to represent all the citizens of their country, not just the beliefs of a given sect.Last edited by War_lord; 2018-07-02 at 05:01 AM.
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2018-07-02, 05:20 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2016
Re: What to Watch Out for in Your Players
The religious people I run for actually wanted to change the religious system to "the one true god." And thought it would be perfectly fine.
When I explained the alignment system and the fact that the game had very little basis in reality, they aqcuiesed, but based on the conversation we had, it is definitely understandable how a group of people could have what some would consider unreasonable requests and feel it entirely reasonable.
Also, as far as it not harming anyone, that may not be true. True, gay men aren't really an issue at all as we could wipe out 90% of the male population and still have a similar sized next generation. But lesbians are a different matter.
Since two women cannot form a child together, the next generation is diminished for every lesbian. Yes, there is in vitro, but the process is expensive, wasteful and cannot be done in the numbers required. They could "take the hit" and allow themselves to be impregnated, but I doubt many do that.
Adoptions are a limited resource, and as gay populations rise, that option will quickly dissipate.
Attacking that thesis from multiple angles, we eventually reach areas we can't rightly predict however. What of over population for example? Also, there are much simpler solutions if there is ever a negative population growth crisis. Much lower hanging fruit can be plucked before gays become an issue... such as regulating birth control more or removing condoms from shelves or banning abortions... all of which are separate issues.
But my point is, the odds of a rising gay population causing harm to society are not zero. There's a maximum population percentage that gays can be... but there is no way to tell what that is, no way to tell what measures would be taken if that is ever breached or if it could ever even BE reached.
So there IS basis for "homophobia." But, with world overpopulation being an issue, it isn't a discussion we need to seriously consider for probably the next several hundred years unless there's some apocalyptic scenario in which reproduction becomes an absolute necessity.
So... eh? Like I said, I keep an open mind and view things from thousands of different angles. I enjoy it.
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2018-07-02, 05:38 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
- Location
- Southern Germany
- Gender
Re: What to Watch Out for in Your Players
No, there really isn't. You even point out yourself that the strawman you built up there is just that, a strawman with no basis in reality, so that's not worth discussing.
So to get back on the topic: What on earth does all this have to do with the question at hand? Even IF that was your "rationale" for being a homophobe, how would this in any way or form legitimize not wanting to encounter gays or lesbians in game? Especially since this "rational homophobia" wouldn't even apply to the game world, which is obviously fictional so me as the GM simply saying "There are not enough lesbians in this world to endanger the survival of the human race" would both qualify for one of the weirdest sentences I'd ever have to say about a campaign world and completely assuage your "rational homophobia" as far as the game is concerned, wouldn't it?
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2018-07-02, 05:56 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2017
Re: What to Watch Out for in Your Players
That's bs for several reasons. Negative population growth wouldn't constituent a crisis unless it happened globally at an extreme rate. That people choose not to, or are unable to have kids for a variety of reasons that don't have anything to do with their sexuality. That if we did want more children to be born we could achieve that more easily by tackling the infant mortality rate in certain countries and related factors, instead of forced birth and other human rights violations. Or that it's akin to worrying about the earth falling into the dying sun, or actually, it's even sillier, because we know the earth is going to do that eventually, but there's zero evidence to suggest the "gaypocalypse" is even possible because you can't be converted to being gay. And even in countries with relatively tolerant attitudes to Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual people, the number of people identifying by one of those labels is usually somewhere between three and four percent, including Bi people who might end up having biological children. Which, I haven't checked this, is probably far less then the number of people who'd say on a survey that they simply don't want children.
Last edited by War_lord; 2018-07-02 at 05:59 AM.
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2018-07-02, 06:05 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2015
Re: What to Watch Out for in Your Players
I did not have any encounter with people not wanting to have gay people in their game.
But i do think it is reasonable to make requests about stuff not being in the game and to accomodate for that. I have done that often. "I don't want horror elements in my game", "I don't want to play in a comedy", "I don't want any gore in my game" and "I don't want any sex in my game".
Somethings might be actual phobias, but most are preferrences. And no, i don't see why "i don't want to encounter gay sex in my game" should be wrong if "i don't want to encounter any sex in my game" is ok.
However having something against gay players is a very different matter. That should not be tolerated.
And as religion goes, i have more often encountered religious people being fine with fantasy religions but becoming squeamish with real world religions portrayed in games, either because the GM or respective players lacks in-depth knowledge about the religion, thus hurting immersion or (even worse) having those religions portrayed like some offensive carricature. Fantasy religions avoid those problems.
Otherwise religion has so far only been a problem in larp when some players stated that some rituals felt too real and thus too close to idolatry and excused themself from them. That and religious eating restrictions that are also not lifted for larp.
And yes, i would also try to accomodate religious people with those kind of problems.Last edited by Satinavian; 2018-07-02 at 06:15 AM.
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2018-07-02, 06:13 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2017
Re: What to Watch Out for in Your Players
There's a world of difference between not wanting "gay sex" in your game and not wanting "gay people" in your game.
Like, do you see what the problems with "I don't want any black characters in this game" are? Not being comfortable with sex or gore or comedy is fine, because that's plot element stuff. Not being fine with minority groups in ones game only really makes any sense as being a problem or discomfort with with that minority group. And it's super problematic if it's someone who literally can't think of a gay dude without immediately thinking of them engaging in explicit acts. That's a problem with that person, not gay people. And it's an indicator that the problem extends to interacting with gay players, even if the person is hiding it.Last edited by War_lord; 2018-07-02 at 06:14 AM.
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2018-07-02, 06:25 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2015
Re: What to Watch Out for in Your Players
How would you ever know if people in your game are gay ?
If it is not a setting that has some kind of established and recognized homosexual partnership and you can introduce some character as such a partner of someone else, sexual orientation will only ever come up with acts of sexual affection. People hitting on other people, kissing each other or making out. Maybe you could add a bit of gossip but for the most part not wanting "gay sex" is pretty much the same as not wanting "gay people".
In most games the orientation of most NPCs and even PCs is completely unknown.Last edited by Satinavian; 2018-07-02 at 06:33 AM.
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2018-07-02, 06:31 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
Re: What to Watch Out for in Your Players
Do you rally believe that everyone who doesn't want graphic depictions of sex at their table has a phobia of and inherent hatred of sex? Because that seems highly unlikely to me.
Thus, assuming that everyone who has issues with (insert LGBT issue if choice) at a table is (insert homophobic equivalent word) seems to not follow.
Would that I had heard those words decades ago!
Different people are different. As someone who has made great strides at overcoming a (completely unrelated) phobia, allow me to say that I did so through controlled exposure, and that overexposure would have been quite detrimental to my process of overcoming said phobia.
Now, don't get me wrong - if someone at the table has a fear of spiders, I'm a ****, and will say, "so ****ing what? I'm not a dirty metagamer. If you don't want me to summon spiders, Retcon a reason why I wouldn't summon spiders here". I just assume that no-one else actually wants to go on record as being as big a **** as me.
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2018-07-02, 06:35 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
- Location
- Norway
- Gender
Re: What to Watch Out for in Your Players
Last edited by Mordaedil; 2018-07-02 at 06:39 AM. Reason: Sourcing quote
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2018-07-02, 06:45 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2016
Re: What to Watch Out for in Your Players
There is, in fact, not. Because yes, there's a maximum number of gay people. Not "percentage that society can accommodate", just "people that just, are gay, actually". The rising number of LGBT people is quite easily proven to be in actuality a rising number of people daring to admit it, and will naturally cap out with rising societal acceptance. Current guesses may go as high as 10-15%, but those are the really high ones, and include bisexuals. (Nevermind that humanity
What you are doing is not, in fact, "looking at things from different viewpoints". It is repeating the views without fact-checking them.
After listening to multiple perspectives, fact-checking which ones are clearly bogus should be first order of priority, and then sorting the ones that aren't by likelyhood.
Or to put it another way, some people's perspective on the world is that it is flat. They have quite impressive astronomical models for how day/night cycles and the seasons still work, and hold up to at least surface-level inspection.
They're still demonstrably wrong, if you disseminate their arguments further, you quickly run into points where their ability to explain the facts and observations made by science stops.
Gay sex =/= gay relationships, characters, etc.
Furthermore, anyone objecting to gay sex on the basis that it is gay and not on the basis that it is sex and playing that out wouldn't be appreciated (I mean, furthest I am really comfortable with is flirting and a statement of "it happens" with a fade to black, I can sympathise) will, at least subconsciously, have sth against gay players. Anyone upholding a double standard or asking for one will do that because of personal biases - there is no other reason to do it, simply.
I do second your stuff on religion, though. Real world religions in games always kinda a) take me out a bit and b) run risk of offending religious people really quickly if done by nonbelievers.
Edit:
Hitting on people, kissing =/= sex.
Gay kissing =/= Gay sex
Gay flirting =/= Gay sex.
So no. Not wanting gay sex is miles away from not wanting gay people.Last edited by Floret; 2018-07-02 at 06:50 AM.
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2018-07-02, 07:06 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
- Location
- Norway
- Gender
Re: What to Watch Out for in Your Players
I do want to quickly point out that if you want to run a game with only one God, that is actually printed in Deities and Demigods supplement for 3.5, albeit they make it a god of light and a god of dark. It's easy to convert that to a Christian template.
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2018-07-02, 07:06 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
- Location
- Southern Germany
- Gender
Re: What to Watch Out for in Your Players
I do not believe that, nor did I argue, imply or state any of that, so please don't imply that I did. I have very clearly stated multiple times that I consider "I don't want to have graphic depictions of sex in the game" a very reasonable request, so don't put words in my mouth.
Maybe to explain what I mean with an example:
William the Warrior and Charles the Cleric are sitting in a tavern. Charles says to William "Hey, that barmaid over there is flirting with you, anything going on there?"
William responds:
a) "Yeah, not interested, I got a girlfriend back home"
b) "Yeah, not interested, I got a boyfriend back home"
And that's that, no further discussion, no preaching, nothing. If someone tells me he has absolutely no problem with a) happening in his game, but b) is a complete no-go, I do not feel any need or responsibility why I would possibly compromise on that. If that's a problem for someone, I'll show him the door.
And yes, that's the same for other topics. If in a World of Darkness game, Harry the Hunter and Megan the Mage are sitting next to each other in a bar and Megan asks "Hey, Harry, wanna go watch the game on Sunday?" and Harry responds
a) "Sorry, I can't, I got a family barbecue on Sunday"
b) "Sorry, I can't, I got church on Sunday"
Yeah, someone telling me b) is something he wouldn't feel comfortable with would most likely not find me willing to accomodate that.Last edited by Delta; 2018-07-02 at 07:07 AM.
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2018-07-02, 07:18 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
- Location
- San Francisco Bay area
- Gender
Re: What to Watch Out for in Your Players
"Mein Führer! I can walk!"
Anyone who thinks up the term "gaypocalypse" is welcome at my table...
....unless of course they seriously think it's a potential problem, in which case general rule #1: Avoid prolonged time with the crazy applies.