Which one is better fighter?

[TheUser]

,get hit, lose concentration, get slaughtered the next turn.

With +3 con modifier and +5 from proficiency (minimum) we're dealing with a 1/20 chance to lose concentration from any attack that is under 22 damage...

If the EK has warcaster it's 1/400

This is with no magic items or additional con modifier....

[alchahest]

I think EK and Samurai are very strong in this, Battlemaster is also good, but Purple Dragon Knight, Arcane Archer, Cavalier, and Champion fall behind.


EK isn't an auto-win by any stretch though. Especially against Samurai, who've got an additional save proficiency. Every flavour of fighter has extra ASIs available and if you're (like most tables) allowing feats, that opens up options for non-spell damage, and ways to work against spellcasters. So yes, an EK can take warcaster, but the Samurai or Battlemaster can have mageslayer and counter the advantage. As an example. There's more out there too. And of course, every fighter has indomitable.

As far as non-magical items goes a note here, Adamantine armor shuts off Champion's biggest advantage, and every kind of fighter can wear it. Food for thought.

[strangebloke]

The ready action allows for 1 attack...

Nice work.

(Extra attack only functions on your turn)

TBH didn't know that, thanks. That does make kiting more effective. I still disagree with your opinion for all the other reasons I outlined, but history shows that arguing with you is pointless.

[ciarannihill]

How the characters are built seems like a legitimate question, especially the Samurai...Elvish Accuracy is a huge boon for the subclass that has at will Advantage for Archery, especially when you have something like Sharpshooter to ignore most cover and such.

[bid]

How the characters are built seems like a legitimate question, especially the Samurai...Elvish Accuracy is a huge boon for the subclass that has at will Advantage for Archery, especially when you have something like Sharpshooter to ignore most cover and such.

3 times per long rest is not "at will".

[ZorroGames]

Before a mod comes down on this thread let me point out that this level of rudeness has caused threads to be locked and people banned if it persists.

[ciarannihill]

3 times per long rest is not "at will".

I meant that it needs not fulfill any specific conditions to attain it, though yes I suppose the specific phrasing shouldn't be "at will", though given the parameters of the combat I would say it may as well be at will, but yes semantically you're correct.

Still if it's a level 20 Samurai it gets 3 Fighting Spirit uses -- 2 of them can on Action Surge turns where you would get 9 attack total (Swift Strike), 8 of them being with "super advantage" and Sharp Shooter.

[Degwerks]

My vote is for the EK. In melee anyway.
I'd cast a 3rd level Shadow Blade as my bonus action and then make 4 attacks doing 3d8 psychic damage each, then action surge for 4 more attacks. 24d8 on my first turn. If by my 2nd turn that Shadow Blade is still going and I didn't lose concentration I'd attack 4 more times and then action surge again and then bonus action Misty Step away and then use my move for another 30ft. Just to mess with the enemy actions.

I'd just continue to use Shadow Blade.

[CantigThimble]

Eldritch Knight doesn't have the advantage because casters>martial, it has the advantage because it's customizable and its resources are long-rest dependent. So if it can pick its abilities knowing what kind of opponent it's going to fight (a single enemy fighter, even if you don't know exact build that narrows it down a lot) and the eldritch knight can blow an entire day's worth of power in one fight with no downside.

I'm just saying, if the contest was to see what type of fighter could kill more of an infinite horde of goblins or who can win the most medium-hard encounters in a row then the eldritch knight might be on top for those contests too, but his spell list is going to look different each time.

[TheUser]

TBH didn't know that, thanks. That does make kiting more effective. I still disagree with your opinion for all the other reasons I outlined, but history shows that arguing with you is pointless.

Since mechanics don't seem to be your strong point it bears considering that the disadvantage from eldritch strike affects the re-roll of indomitable as well as repeat saves like from hold person; which is to say if you initially rolled at disdvantage then indomitable will only only grant you another save attempt at disadvantage. Additionally, if a target fails the first save of hold person and the EK lands another attack, the next save is at disadvantage because it comes from a spell cast before the end of the EK's next turn. Meaning if the EK decides to crank Intelligence after level 10, pinpointing and exploiting weak saves is -very- easy for them.

Eldritch Strike
At 10th level, you learn how to make your weapon strikes undercut a creature’s resistance to your spells. When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, that creature has disadvantage on the next saving throw it makes against a spell you cast before the end of your next turn.

Because the save hasn't been resolved when indomitable triggers it still counts as the first save being made, not a new saving throw.

As well instead of using terms like "first saving throw" like the heighten spell metamagic, it uses the term "next saving throw" which implies one might have come before or another subsequent one may come after. Thankfully it doesn't stack up but the mechanics favor the EK greatly.

[strangebloke]

Eldritch Knight doesn't have the advantage because casters>martial, it has the advantage because it's customizable and its resources are long-rest dependent. So if it can pick its abilities knowing what kind of opponent it's going to fight (a single enemy fighter, even if you don't know exact build that narrows it down a lot) and the eldritch knight can blow an entire day's worth of power in one fight with no downside.

I'm just saying, if the contest was to see what type of fighter could kill more of an infinite horde of goblins or who can win the most medium-hard encounters in a row then the eldritch knight might be on top for those contests too, but his spell list is going to look different each time.

Yeah this is what I was saying.

In any PVP matchup, it comes down to 'how hard can you nova?' That's why, omitting certain strategies, a rogue will do worse in PVP than a monk, and why a paladin will do better than a ranger.

The EK and Samurai are the two fighter sublcasses with Long Rest resources. So they're at the top. I think the EK is much more flexible and powerful than the Samurai, who is actually pretty weak, IMO, so I see him as 'the subclass to beat.'

I mostly disagree with TheUser's "EK wins every fight forever no matter what."

...Although TheUser is actually saying "EK wins every fight if he employs this exact strategy and has the appropriate counters."

[TheUser]

...Although TheUser is actually saying "EK wins every fight if he employs this exact strategy and has the appropriate counters."

I will re-iterate since you seem so content to straw man me.

There are a whole host of low level spells that completely trivialize 1v1 fights that an eldritch knight has access to that they are extremely likely to have across any and all builds. So much so that the odds of them curbstomping any other fighter are extreme.

1) shield and/or expeditious retreat

2) Blur (synergy with shield), Hold Person + War Magic

3) Haste, Slow, Fear, Blink

4) Stone Skin, Greater Invis


An Eldritch Knight won't have -all- of these spells but if they have even one of them, this duel becomes a one sided landslide. Especially in the case of Haste.

There are other great spells like Levitate, Suggestion, Spider Climb, Gust of Wind...
Bestow Curse, Fly....
If you are any number of Fighters who uses Strength as your primary stat then all of these spells will absolutely wreck the EK's opponent.

You fail one save against Suggestion, Bestow Curse or Levitate then the duel slants towards the EK massively.

The EK doesn't have to build to duel, they just have to build to their own strengths and the odds are they will tear down any other fighter in a 1v1 fight.

[Kane0]

Hmm, hadn't considered Samurai. I wonder if there is a case to be made for Arcane Archer even? Enfeebling, Grasping and Shadow Arrow could be useful.

[bid]

Still if it's a level 20 Samurai it gets 3 Fighting Spirit uses -- 2 of them can on Action Surge turns where you would get 9 attack total (Swift Strike), 8 of them being with "super advantage" and Sharp Shooter.

Yeah, since it's a single fight you can't short rest to have them all on action surges. It's still enough to make a good contender for 1v1.

[strangebloke]

I will re-iterate since you seem so content to straw man me.

There are a whole host of low level spells that completely trivialize 1v1 fights that an eldritch knight has access to that they are extremely likely to have across any and all builds.

Ok, let's go through this.

The initial statement of myself and most people in this thread was: "Probably EK followed by samurai. However, with this level of information, not enough hard specifics."

You then stated that too many EK abilities make a 1v1 fight trivial for the EK. Let's be clear, you said that every one of these spells trivialize any encounter. I will agree that some of them trivialize many encounters, however, you also said that "the only factor to consider is one of them gets spell slots for wizard spells and the other's don't."

There are a lot of potential 1v1 battles.

The Shield Spell seriously trivializes every encounter? What about a fight with an EA samurai, who can get +5 to each attack via EA + fighting spirit? What about a battle scenario where surprise is possible? Kiting spells completely overpower any fighter? What about a cavalier, who can completely nullify pretty much all melee kiting strategies? What about a what about a 20x20 foot room where kiting strats are literally impossible?

And the issue is, this is hardcore rocket tag, and a lot of the EK's competition is ahead on HP/Damage. With EA accuracy, a samurai has an effective +13 after applying SS, and deals ~20 damage a hit up to 9 times a round. Or a +11 with 23 damage for a greatsword. The samurai can nuke an EK in two turns, and it gets to take a turn after dropping to zero hit points. AND the samurai is perfectly capable of healing himself on his reaction turn and taking yet another turn if the EK has no damage left on that turn. Even an arcane archer is capable of mixing 1-turn disables into his attack action.

In light of that action economy deficiency, you're talking about a whole action spent debuffing/buffing? It can work, certainly. Depending on the matchup it very well might. However, if the spell fails or the buff is lost, the EK is suddenly severely behind.

And like I said, I still agree that the EK wins a majority of all possible matchups. I just think you're being incredibly insulting to everyone and that you're overstating your case.

[Kane0]

Lucky would also be super useful.

[strangebloke]

Lucky would also be super useful.

Lucky is completely broken in any single-encounter day.

[Kane0]

For the laughs, my entry in the Fighter Free For All is an AA 20, Wood elf because that's appropriately thematic.

Str* 10
Dex 20
Con* 14
Int 14
Wis* 14
Cha 8

Proficient in Acrobatics, Arcana, Athletics, Nature, Perception, Survival

Archery Fighting Style, Second Wind (1d10 +20), Action Surge x2, Extra Attack x3, Indomitable x3

Magical Arrows (DC 16) x2: Banishing, Beguiling, Bursting, Enfeebling, Grasping, Shadow
Feats: Lucky, Magic Initiate (Warlock), Resilient (Wis), Sharpshooter, Wood Elf Magic
Casting: Druidcraft, Guidance, Mending, Prestidigitation, Longstrider, Hex and Pass Without Trace

Basic strategy is skulking around at a brisk 45' and +10 to stealth rolls until he spots his target with his elvey senses. Then he moves himself in a favorable position if possible then engages at a distance with his magical arrows, keeping at range as best he can. If the target gets too close he brings up hex (targeting wisdom) and attempts to fade away for another strike later on, or if pressed close in with a finesse weapon (or two). His cantrips are mostly for theatrics, cleaning up after himself and fixing his bow if some idiot goes for the string.

I fully expect him to get trounced, but it was fun putting him together.

[lordorinko]

For the laughs, my entry in the Fighter Free For All is an AA 20, Wood elf because that's appropriately thematic.

Str* 10
Dex 20
Con* 14
Int 14
Wis* 14
Cha 8

Proficient in Acrobatics, Arcana, Athletics, Nature, Perception, Survival

Archery Fighting Style, Second Wind (1d10 +20), Action Surge x2, Extra Attack x3, Indomitable x3

Magical Arrows (DC 16) x2: Banishing, Beguiling, Bursting, Enfeebling, Grasping, Shadow
Feats: Lucky, Magic Initiate (Warlock), Resilient (Wis), Sharpshooter, Wood Elf Magic
Casting: Druidcraft, Guidance, Mending, Prestidigitation, Longstrider, Hex and Pass Without Trace

Basic strategy is skulking around at a brisk 45' and +10 to stealth rolls until he spots his target with his elvey senses. Then he moves himself in a favorable position if possible then engages at a distance with his magical arrows, keeping at range as best he can. If the target gets too close he brings up hex (targeting wisdom) and attempts to fade away for another strike later on, or if pressed close in with a finesse weapon (or two). His cantrips are mostly for theatrics, cleaning up after himself and fixing his bow if some idiot goes for the string.

I fully expect him to get trounced, but it was fun putting him together.

YES!! Let's do this! Anybody else want to present their Gladiator against this one?!

[Shadurak]

What about a fight with an EA samurai, who can get +5 to each attack via EA + fighting spirit

Excuse me, I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I just have to ask. EA stands for elven accuracy, right? How does it add +5 to the attack? It just allows you to reroll one of the attack dice.
If it's commonly accepted that super advantage roughly equals +5, I apologise.

[strangebloke]

Excuse me, I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I just have to ask. EA stands for elven accuracy, right? How does it add +5 to the attack? It just allows you to reroll one of the attack dice.
If it's commonly accepted that super advantage roughly equals +5, I apologise.

Yup.

In actuality, "highest 1 of 3d20" just cubes the miss chance.

So in the case of a +13 vs 24 AC, which is something like what you'd expect in the fights we're talking about, the miss chance is.5. 0.5^3=0.5*0.5*0.5=0.125. in this case, super advantage was worth +7.5.

The average bonus that super advantage gives is about +5 though, ignoring crits. If you factor in crits, super advantage grants more like +6.5 on average. (Or +9 in the example I gave.)

Generally, advantage and super advantage apply a larger bonus the closer you are to a starting miss chance of .5.

[ciarannihill]

And the issue is, this is hardcore rocket tag, and a lot of the EK's competition is ahead on HP/Damage. With EA accuracy, a samurai has an effective +13 after applying SS, and deals ~20 damage a hit up to 9 times a round. Or a +11 with 23 damage for a greatsword. The samurai can nuke an EK in two turns, and it gets to take a turn after dropping to zero hit points. AND the samurai is perfectly capable of healing himself on his reaction turn and taking yet another turn if the EK has no damage left on that turn.

So I 100% agree with the underlying argument you're presenting, but it is worth noting that EA can't be applied to a Greatsword swing, since the attack has to use Dex/Int/Wis/Cha to get the super advantage -- unless I'm misunderstanding the math you're presenting for the Greatsword example in which case I apologize for the interjection.

It's also worth considering how the various characters are built in terms of stats, since an EK has an additional stat "requirement" (assuming you're using any spells that requires rolls or saves) of Int compared to other Fighter builds, which means more ASI investments when compared to pure martial fighters, in theory. If we had a tangible build/sheet for the respective combatants it would make this far easier to argue than doing so in the abstract way we are currently.

[djreynolds]

With martial adept, a 17 or 18 level battlemaster can have 7 1d12 maneuvers a short rest.

Mage slayer second perk about concentration has no distance requirements like with in 5ft as the 1st and 3rd perks do.

So a 20th battlemaster archer with lucky, mage slayer, martial adept could be a tough opponent also with indomitable and resilient wisdom.

You only have so many spell slots with the shield spell before sharpshooter damage really starts to hurt.

Also grabbing magic initiate for cleric, concentrating on bless is sweet.

7 feats, maybe 8 with human variant.
2 dex, magic initiate, mage slayer, lucky, resilient wisdom, sharpshooter and maybe martial adept.

[mgshamster]

Champion. He's the only one who beat the Nameless King in 1v1. :D

[GlenSmash!]

Champion. He's the only one who beat the Nameless King in 1v1. :D

I applaud you sir!

[JNAProductions]

I'll echo those saying EK is probably the one to beat, owing to them being a long rest based subclass and therefore having the best nova potential, but it's going to come down to details, from terrain to losing conditions to exact builds and exact dice rolls.

[Kane0]

Anything but a featureless coliseum please.

Come to think of it, of all the Solaris locations the Coliseum is the only one I don't like.

[Galactkaktus]

I think that wood elf whould probably be the top racial pick in the phb 1 v 1 especially for melee. Since initiative is probbaly the most important roll in 1v1 so 2 dex is good 1 wis is not great, but the real advantage is 5ft extra movement since if you have more movement than your opponen you can move out of their range for melee attacks take 1 aoo while probably making more attacks than them with the attack action. This advantage is of course gone if there is not enough room to retreat. And at low levels Variant human is probably the best.

[Kane0]

Oh, don't Champions get an init bonus?

[bid]

Oh, don't Champions get an init bonus?

Half their proficiency, so +3.