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2018-06-24, 02:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
Why Don't Fighters Get Anything at Level 5?
Okay, so I know what you're going to say, "But Aett, they get Extra Attack at level 5!"
Well yes, yes they do. But every other martial class gets something else in addition to Extra Attack at level 5...every martial class but Fighters. Some just get a little something extra, some get something pretty decent:
Barbarians - Fast Movement
Monks - Stunning Strike
Paladins/Rangers - Access to their Level 2 spells (which I'm counting since it's a decent bump for them)
So why don't Fighters get something similar? You could say that it's because of Action Surge that makes getting extra attack so much better, but then I'd say that that interaction is kind of a Fighter's thing, so they shouldn't be penalized in class features for it.
I'm more just curious than anything, and wasn't sure if there was a kind of "official" reason for it, or if it's just the way it is.
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2018-06-24, 02:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2017
Re: Why Don't Fighters Get Anything at Level 5?
Action surge gets a power up with extra attack (gives 2 extra attacks instead of 1). Also fighters get a really strong feature at level 6 while most classes get ribbons.
Last edited by Relbin; 2018-06-24 at 02:06 PM.
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2018-06-24, 02:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
Re: Why Don't Fighters Get Anything at Level 5?
Well, with Action Surge at level 5, Fighters can make 4 attacks in one round once per short rest. At that level, Monks can make 4 attacks in one round 5 times per short rest, and 3 attacks per round indefinitely if they want. Granted, at that level they are doing 1d6 per attack versus a fighter that might be doing 2d6 with a Greatsword, but it's still a more limited resource.
The additional ASI at level 6 is a decent point, though.
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2018-06-24, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
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- Italy
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Re: Why Don't Fighters Get Anything at Level 5?
Classes don't have to be streamlined and all built the same. The fighter works really well as-is, so there's no need for extra abilities really. On top of that, many fighter features rely on attacks, like maneouvers or extended crit range, so those look much better with extra attack too.
English isn't my first language, so I will likely express myself poorly.
Please assume that I'm arguing in good faith, and that I mean no offense to anybody.
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2018-06-24, 02:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2018
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2018-06-24, 03:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
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- where South is East
Re: Why Don't Fighters Get Anything at Level 5?
Trust but verify. There's usually a reason why I believe you can't do something.
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2018-06-24, 03:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2017
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- EST
Re: Why Don't Fighters Get Anything at Level 5?
The fighter was intentionally designed to be simple, so to me it makes sense that it has very few features. It already has a fighting style, second wind, action surge, a martial archetype feature, an ABI and extra attack, they aren’t underpowered at that level. If the class was meant to be simple, and is already doing well on its own, than why would they need a feature at level 5?
Just because all the other martial classes get a feature at level 5 doesn’t mean the fighter should. The classes were meant to be roughly equal sure, but that doesn’t mean they have to be all designed the same way.-
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2018-06-24, 03:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Why Don't Fighters Get Anything at Level 5?
Relatively few level 6 abilities are ribbons.
Paladin: gets +Cha to saves in a 10' radius
Monk: gets a subclass feature (e.g. bonus action teleport, at-will fear, free healing, or ability to cast 2nd level spells like Hold Person)
Ranger: useless ribbon
Barbarian: gets a subclass feature (e.g. always-on resistance to elemental damage, or a variety of rage bonuses: immunity to charm/fear, damage reduction on a reaction, reroll failed saving throws, temp HP every time you Reckless Attack)
Rogue: more Expertise
Really it's the Ranger and some Barbarian subclasses who are the outliers at 6th level, getting ribbons while everyone else gets something good. Just like Fighters are the outliers at 5th level.
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2018-06-24, 05:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
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- Waterdeep
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Re: Why Don't Fighters Get Anything at Level 5?
Hmm, interesting. I hadn't noticed that before.
Perhaps a good spot to put in something like a skill/tool proficiency? Barb gets +10' speed so we can't copy that.Roll for it 5e Houserules and Homebrew
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2018-06-24, 06:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2018
Re: Why Don't Fighters Get Anything at Level 5?
Every class has meh levels. That said, I think Extra Attack is fine for a sole 5th level feature, since it synergizes with Action Surge so well. 5th level is a big power spike for fighters, especially considering that the very next level, they can boost their per-hit damage two levels before everyone else.
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2018-06-24, 07:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2014
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- Death realm
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2018-06-24, 07:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
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- Waterdeep
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Re: Why Don't Fighters Get Anything at Level 5?
Give em the ability to swap out their fighting style after a long rest?
Roll for it 5e Houserules and Homebrew
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2018-06-24, 07:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2018
Re: Why Don't Fighters Get Anything at Level 5?
Respectfully,
A level in a vacuum doesn't matter in the progression scheme. Combined with what Fighters get at level 1, 2 and 6, extra attack is arguably better for them than any other class. They take better advantage of it, and sooner.
At level 6, a Fighter has probably maxed her damage stat far easier than anyone else two levels sooner, and if that already happened at 4 somehow, she can take a damage-enhancing feat to get even farther ahead on the damage scale (or the defense scale, etc.)
When a class has more ASIs than anyone else, I think it's fine for them to "only" get EA for a level while some others get more on top of that. Fighters are crazy good, and the features they get in surrounding levels make EA even better for them imo.
Just my 2c, of course. I think Fighters are absolutely fine, and that they shine early, and throughout.Last edited by Speely; 2018-06-24 at 07:48 PM.
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2018-06-24, 08:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2016
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- Subang Jaya, Malaysia
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Re: Why Don't Fighters Get Anything at Level 5?
That's not how it works. The class that gets the most use out of Extra Attack is the guy with the best weapon with on hit effects. Fighters are no where near 'crazy good' when compared with other classes. Barbarians are more tanky and stronger, Paladins do more burst damage and have powerful auras, and Monks are more mobile with the best single target lock down - Stunning Strike. Fighters don't have much going for them. They only get even at 11th with the 3rd attack.
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2018-06-24, 09:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
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- where South is East
Re: Why Don't Fighters Get Anything at Level 5?
Trust but verify. There's usually a reason why I believe you can't do something.
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2018-06-24, 09:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2016
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Re: Why Don't Fighters Get Anything at Level 5?
Comparing different classes by isolating 2 levels will leave things looking off.
Every class has a different power progression. Fighter 5 is fine.
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2018-06-24, 09:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
Re: Why Don't Fighters Get Anything at Level 5?
Because there's this idea that everything can be fixed by saying "I attack". So much weight is put on "I attack" that the fighter obviously doesn't need class features that revolve around anything other than "I attack".
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2018-06-24, 10:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2018
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2018-06-25, 01:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
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2018-06-25, 06:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2016
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- United States
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Re: Why Don't Fighters Get Anything at Level 5?
If you're going to make the claim that any class doesn't get a significant power spike at 5, I think Rogues are the better example. One extra d6 of Sneak Attack and a solid-but-not-gamechanging defensive feature like Uncanny Dodge is solid, but it's nowhere near the level of playstyle alteration that Extra Attack and 3rd Level Spells offer.
To be clear: I love Rogues, and I think they're the best designed, most enjoyable class in the game. But they seem to be a better example of a weirdly displaced power curve, especially with the weird spacing of their archetype features.The desire to appear clever often impedes actually being so.
What makes the vanity of others offensive is the fact that it wounds our own.
Quarrels don't last long if the fault is only on one side.
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We hardly ever find anyone of good sense, except those who agree with us.
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2018-06-25, 07:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
Re: Why Don't Fighters Get Anything at Level 5?
I just want to make it clear that I don’t think that Fighters are imbalanced overall, or that they somehow lag behind at level 5 because of this. Nor do I think that every class needs to be the same in how they are designed.
I just thought that it was odd that for most martial classes, level 5 came with Extra Attack and X, but Fighters just got Extra Attack. I don’t think it’s imbalancing that way, just curious.
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2018-06-25, 07:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
Re: Why Don't Fighters Get Anything at Level 5?
Very much this. If class features were modular units that you could separate and analyze in a vacuum, the game would have morphed into a GURPs-alike game by now. They aren't, so it hasn't.
Mind you, the fact that 'level 5 class features' aren't of the same utility for each and every class does do interesting things to any game with multiclassing, but multiclassing in general is a real headache for game design.
I don't know that anyone suggested that fighters were "'crazy good' when compared with other classes," merely that they had abilities which synergized well with multiattack. As for fighters not having much going for them--this is anecdotal, but provided I chose correctly based on which recharge cycle my DM was going to favor (Long rest for EK, short for battlemaster, old school dungeon where any rest has an opportunity cost for champion), I have never been outperformed by barbarians, paladins, or monks in the combat output department (which is good, since each of them have OOC abilities). And that has usually been with a fighter with at least one ASI dedicated to a side-ability, such as healer, inspiring leader, ritual caster, etc. Each class has its' place, and I've never found the fighter to be the one that has to fight for relevance.
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2018-06-25, 07:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
Re: Why Don't Fighters Get Anything at Level 5?
Uncanny Dodge is one of the best abilities in the game, along with ecpertise but for diffetent reasons.
Uncanny Dodge is a life saver in combat and out of combat allows you to do some weird social things that other character can't. Want to make your performance more real when the bard is telling a tale about slaying a dragon? Don't hold back when attacking the rogue (who is dressed as a knight). The rogue can use uncanny dodge to lessen the damage even though the hit was clean. Want to challenge a barbarian to a punch off in order to win his favor? The rogue can roll with the punches. Need to figure out who should carry the princess back to the king when she doesn't want to go back (you can't knock her out, damaging her will piss pff her father)? The rogue will be great staying alive if he's attacked (Bonus Action run away + reaction half damage on a serious hit).
Uncanny Dodge is worth a huge chunk of HP when things go bad and is, essentially, free reaction healing. Opportunity attacks are hard to generate in 5e most of the time (especially with errata) so using it as a way to survive is huge.
Uncanny Dodge is a huge defensive feature that can be used in social situations when set up properly.Last edited by Derpaligtr; 2018-06-25 at 07:56 AM.
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2018-06-25, 08:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2016
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- United States
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Re: Why Don't Fighters Get Anything at Level 5?
The desire to appear clever often impedes actually being so.
What makes the vanity of others offensive is the fact that it wounds our own.
Quarrels don't last long if the fault is only on one side.
Nothing is given so generously as advice.
We hardly ever find anyone of good sense, except those who agree with us.
-Francois, Duc de La Rochefoucauld
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2018-06-25, 09:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
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- United Kingdom
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Re: Why Don't Fighters Get Anything at Level 5?
Extra attack is a huge boon for fighters when combined with fighting styles and especially action surge. Even moreso when they get extra attack 2 and 3.
If however you feel it's lacking, I would suggest giving them a ribbon ability like a skill/tool proficiency, or another fighting style if you're feeling that they need another power jump.
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2018-06-25, 11:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2017
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2018-06-25, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2012
Re: Why Don't Fighters Get Anything at Level 5?
Extra Attack is better for fighters than it is for paladins, barbarians, etc. Every fighter feature builds into making their attack action better.
- Fighting Style: hit harder
- Extra ASI: hit harder/more often and add damaging feats like savage attacker and GWM
- Action Surge: hit more often in a burst
- Maneuvers: add damage and a rider to your attacks.
- Fighting Spirit: advantage to all attacks
- Improved Critical: hit harder.
- Unwavering Mark: add debuff to attack.
Extra attack doubles of the potency of all of those features.Make Martials CoolAgain.
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2018-06-25, 12:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2013
Re: Why Don't Fighters Get Anything at Level 5?
If you wanted to add anything, it would be something that has no impact on combat.
Maybe proficiencies, maybe ribbon abilities, additional background features, or other niche fighter-y things that make flavoring and fleshing out the character outside of the "just attack" mechanics that they have. Perhaps giving them an ability that can only happen while resting.
This could include:
- Mentorship: Over the course of 7 long rests, you can grant a character with no class levels a single level of fighter
- Professional Maintenance: During a short or long rest, you can repair breaks & tears in a weapon, armor, item or similar object. As long as the break or tear is no larger than 1 foot in any dimension, you mend it, leaving no trace of the former damage, although you can't restore magic to an object.
- Field Medic: During a short or long rest , you can replenish a use of a healer's kit (up to 10). During a long rest, if you do not have a healer's kit, you can create one with 2 uses.
- Trapper: When you forage, you find twice as much food as you normally would. Hunter's Traps that you set have a DC of 16 rather than 13.
- Fletching: During a short rest, you can create 20 arrows or bolts, doubled during long rest. Your arrows are of such quality that your quivers can store an additional 10 arrows, and you can sell a batch of 20 unused arrows in most towns for 2gp.
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2018-06-25, 08:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
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2018-06-25, 08:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2014
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- Los Angeles
Re: Why Don't Fighters Get Anything at Level 5?
Why even wait for a long rest? Let them change out their fighting style when they draw a new weapon or assume a new stance. Seems more thematic and associative, and it's not like a little versatility is going to make them put Paladins or Wizards out of a job.
Last edited by LudicSavant; 2018-06-25 at 08:26 PM.
Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
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