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2018-07-02, 06:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?
Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2018-07-02 at 06:09 PM.
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2018-07-02, 06:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?
Of course, the kung fu rules arent taken to their logical conclusion. 1 master trains 2 students. Those students train 2 students each, those 4 train 2 students each, etc etc etc etc. And even thats assuming the master teaches two students his tricks PERIOD. Even if it takes 10-20 years for a average non prodigy to learn enough of haki to be reasonably proficient, thats still several sets each master can teach int heir lifetime who them go on to teach that many themselves. The reason haki knowledge is fairly low is likely by design, both oda world building and the logic of the world government combined. They are clearly trying to control knowledge, they hoard some of the best stuff for themselves, seastone for one example. Knowledge of devil fruits is only really in depth through vegapunk. Sure general facts such as the most obvious, cant swim, lose strength submerged, are common knowledge, but the details are left up to individuals to figure out about their own power or that of their opponent. And of course the biggest example of trying to hide or destroy knowledge, the void century itself, and the destruction of ohana and murder of everyone there. All this strongly indicates a government that is VERY interested in control, and just letting every tom **** and harry learn powerful skills like haki would be a very bad thing, costing them some of their advantage in a fight as knowledge spreads. Restricting it to their higher ranks means ensuring it isnt taught to those who are likely to go teach others who might not be loyal. Or at least keeping it that much less likely to spread.
"Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2018-07-03, 03:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2011
Re: Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?
As pointed out, if the prodigy can learn it in 2 years, normal Joe can learn it in 4-8 years and that would result in a much bigger number of haki users than we see.
Thanks for proving how little you know about One Piece since otherwise you would know that Mihawk's the strongest swordman in the setting (to the point Zorro chose him as his training master for the 2-year timeskip), and since Mihawk's wandering East Blue that by definition makes East Blue serious business.
And yes, Zorro the young mercenary taking a direct blow from the strongest swordman in the world and living to tell the tale without being reduced to a cripple shows that East Blue's people are made of tough stuff.
Plus you know, Shanks, one of top 4 strongest pirates in One Piece that's respected by everybody and gave his trademark strawhat to Luffy, also can be commonly found in East Blue. Simply by sailing around East Blue you can find all sort of top-of-the-world badasses.
And said super pirate lost an arm to some random East Blue sea beast.
I'll repeat it for good measure, East Blue is so hardcore that even if you're in the top 4 of the pirate's power scale you still risk losing a limb just to the local wildlife.Last edited by deuterio12; 2018-07-03 at 03:25 AM.
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2018-07-03, 06:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
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Re: Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?
You just... and missed.. I dont even... WHAT?!?!?! Seriously this is insanely inaccurate rambling. Mihawk was in the east blue because he was bored and chasing down the remnants of kriegs fleet. He specifically chose to let zoro live because he was impressed by the mans drive, not because zoro was such a badass even the worlds deadliest swordsman couldnt take him down or some such rot. As for shanks, he intentionally tanked a shot from a skyscraper sized sea king to protect a little boy. Then after losing his arm, he looked at it hard and it ran away. The east blue had such terrifying villains as alvida, a pirate captain worth so little bringing in one of luffys FINGERS is worth more in bounty. The entire setting and everyone in it considers the east blue to be the weakest of the seas. Yes strong pirates can come from there, but the ones who stay there are meaningless chump change in the scheme of things."Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2018-07-03, 09:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
Re: Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?
So, a caveat here: I don't know One Piece. I've picked up a bit by osmosis, but I never have and never will actually watch the show, as highly episodic weekly shows that rack up hundreds of episodes are very much not my thing.
That doesn't necessarily follow. The overall threat level isn't dictated by the outliers, particularly in the context of a large sample set. If the potential opposition is a giant pile of mooks with one real threat that completely outclasses you buried in it it's a lot less dangerous than a potential opposition of a giant pile of mooks liberally seasoned with real threats, even if said real threats are comparable instead of far better.
This would be more convincing, though both the randomness of the sea beast and the extent to which it's local wildlife have been called into question. Which gets back to the influence of the threat levels of the outliers. An ocean with the leviathan world serpent which will eventually be involved in the apocalypse and kills everything it comes across, and also a bunch of small filter feeding fish is generally a whole lot dangerous than an ocean with a bunch of small filter feeding fish, providing the food baseline for a whole ecological level of massive and dangerous sharks, sea serpents, kraken, etc., even if said sharks serpents and kraken pose roughly the same threat to the leviathan world serpent as those small feeder fish.I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2018-07-03, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
Re: Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?
Then its by definition not Equal Opportunity. sorry.
Of course, the kung fu rules arent taken to their logical conclusion. 1 master trains 2 students. Those students train 2 students each, those 4 train 2 students each, etc etc etc etc. And even thats assuming the master teaches two students his tricks PERIOD. Even if it takes 10-20 years for a average non prodigy to learn enough of haki to be reasonably proficient, thats still several sets each master can teach int heir lifetime who them go on to teach that many themselves.
But it is not taking into consideration that those masters are a) extemely important people in the Marine, who also have other duties like leadership, and protecting people. And b) that its a really violent world where people suposedly die a lot more often than we see.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2018-07-03, 12:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?
I'd second Big Hero Six.
Most super powered stories are not very equal at all. My favorite, the Parahumanverse, is blatantly unfair. Almost all of them have at least some degree of "these people get powers for reasons outside of their actions". Even if it's not everyone, it's definitely some.
Basically, if you posit some sort of amazing super-tech, you gotta justify why only some people have it. Otherwise, it's not a superhero tale, it's just sci-fi.
Marvel's probably the fairest outta the well known ones.
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2018-07-03, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?
Might not be one of the more fair ones, but I'm required too point it out due too my Hyper-Super-Obscure-Fandom, The SuperPowereds universe. It's kinda fair in that all people have a chance of getting powers, but the powers themself are often superier too others. Oh and theirs a very high chance that you wont be able too control your power and your life will be a total nightmare.
Look it up! It's Great! You useed too be able too read it for free on the interwebs but now you can read it on a E-Book.A diamond necklace played the pawn
Hand in hand some drummed along, oh
To a handsome man and baton (Bygone, bygone)
A blind class aristocracy
Back through the opera glass you see
The pit and the pendulum drawn (Bygone, bygone)
Columnated ruins domino
My avatar was made by a very lovely chap by the name of smutmulch. That was very cool of them.
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2018-07-03, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
Re: Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?
Super powereds is pretty much run of the mile in regards to power distribution for the purpose of this thread, random powers given to random people.
Though talking about random distribution universes: 100 point heroes also has random distribution but everybody who does get powers can choose them from them same catalog and everyone has the same amount of points to spend on them. I guess that is as far to fair random people getting different powers gets.
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2018-07-04, 02:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?
I second Hunter X Hunter being very fair.
Everyone can get power, bar none.
Obviously some are more innately talented, but not unlike the real world. Everyone can run, not everyone could compete in the Olympics.
The way you get powers is just training. Having a trainer helps, just like in real life.
Everyone knows Hunters exist, and everyone can become a Hunter.
Now, getting to the actual "power" part.. you CHOOSE your own power.
There is small limitation, in that you will have innate "affinity" to one of the 6 types of skills, but it's not really a big deal, for two reasons.
1) you can still use the other skills, albeit at less effectiveness
2) the 6 categories are just broad groups, such as "enhancement : improve something in your self"
Once you realize what your affinity is, you can just decide to create a power and learn it.
It can be as creative as you want, and it will be as powerful as you are. You can even give it weird restrictions of rules.
A guy's power, for example "When I touched you earlier I can silently implant a bomb in you. The bomb has an x day timer that starts when I tell you the rules about this power.
You can disable the bomb by touching me and saying "I captured you".
Or another guy's, "I punch REALLY hard"Last edited by Gandariel; 2018-07-04 at 02:35 AM.
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2018-07-04, 02:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?
Dungeons and Dragons? Anyone can be any class right?
Last edited by Lizard Lord; 2018-07-04 at 02:59 AM.
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2018-07-04, 03:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?
DnD isn't fair.
there are tons of monsters with abilities exclusive to them, therefore violates the race aspect of the question.
different classes don't have the same spell lists therefore doesn't fill the "must all have the same power library" aspect.
sorcerers have to inherit their abilities through blood. so not equal opportunity.
like most superhero works, the only criteria it fulfills is the "publicity" aspect.
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2018-07-04, 03:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
Re: Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?
The way you get powers is just training. Having a trainer helps, just like in real life.
Everyone knows Hunters exist, and everyone can become a Hunter.
DnD isn't fair.
there are tons of monsters with abilities exclusive to them, therefore violates the race aspect of the question.
different classes don't have the same spell lists therefore doesn't fill the "must all have the same power library" aspect.
sorcerers have to inherit their abilities through blood. so not equal opportunity.
like most superhero works, the only criteria it fulfills is the "publicity" aspect.
Because you are blocked from a lot of things by birth.
Like for example arcane magic. If your int isnt 11+ you wont be able to use anything but cantrips.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2018-07-04, 03:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2012
Re: Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?
No, there are. Komugi from the Chimera Ant arc is a Nen user - albeit unrefined because she wasn't using it consciously and has an extremely limited knowledge of the world in general - and there are other noted instances of individuals that have unlocked Nen through singular dedication to something. As Komugi had for her in-universe equivalent of Chess/Go, which she was willing to commit to the point that she was going to kill herself were she ever to lose a game. Which is the kind of hardcore conditions you need to place upon yourself if you want real power in HxH.
There's also someone like Neon Nostrade, who had a Ghostwriting Nen ability that could predict the future through poetry. She was just a genius with that particular ability, though her personality was fairly warped which might have something to it.
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2018-07-04, 02:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
Re: Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?
different classes don't have the same spell lists therefore doesn't fill the "must all have the same power library" aspect.
That could be away, to make it fair and still let the have the characters individual powers. Everyone can follow all the paths, but they can't learn stuff from all the paths.
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2018-07-04, 11:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?
Also becoming a lawyer requires formal training from an accredited institution in most places before you are even allowed to sit for the test. An exclusive state-sanctioned board determines who can and cannot be a lawyer, and they include a lot of rules that exclude certain people (such as people convicted of certain crimes).
Law, as well as other highly regulated professions like medicine, are exactly the sort of example of something that would be unfair.
Also, lawyers don’t all pick from the same menu, certain law enforcement, military, and intelligence regulations and guidelines may be secret. Also, some places keep certain other laws or forms of law secret (i.e. Japan keeps judicial decisions secret from the general public).
Its the players that get to choose characters and character classes. The characters don’t necessarily have such opportunities. However stories where everyone is a player are a possibility. I mentioned this before, an MMO anime might fit, except they are all Shōnen and so all have secret powers and super-talented protagonists.
The very nature of these sorts of game world is to fill it with a bunch of rare and unique items and opportunities that are going to be exclusive.
Nothing mentioned is even remotely close to fitting the bill. To say something like Marvel is the most fair or even Hunter x Hunter is comparing something absurdly unequal to other things absurdly unequal to a very very big set. I’m not seeing the recognition that we’re dealing with the distribution of powers that are birthed in stories of special people who can do impossible things. One of the most common reasons also have to do with biology and inherited powers.
You can decide one universe is more fair compared to another, but to say one story is the fairest of all of them...if you then cite a popular anime or recent comic....I think you are looking at the wrong place.The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.
Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar
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2018-07-05, 03:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?
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2018-07-05, 04:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
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Re: Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?
I think stat choice is both determined in a number of different ways, and not as important long term as you might think. I mean sure nothing but 20s would be a nice start (if possible) But there are lots of long term ways to make up for any deficits. My centaur rogue can still be a badass even if at level one he is not as stealthy as he could be.
"Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2018-07-05, 06:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2012
Re: Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?
I think this thread's issue is conflating fairness with mediocrity. That, unless everyone can do the same things that they're grievously and inherently unfarr.
I'm more of the mind of the Olympics analogy that Gandariel raised, that so long as X can be accessed by anyone based on their individual and justified merits rather than one's bloodline, fate or divine mandate, or any arbitrary requirements of which an individual has no agency over, they remain "fair". While the Olympics certainly discriminate against the non-athletic - and a tiny fraction of humanity will ever be an Olympian - and Olympians are "special" people undoubtedly, it's still something of a question mark for any child born that they could be one if they have the will to.
Granted, the Olympics are unfair in terms of the world being unfair - disparity between standards of living, the wealth and political backing for organized Olympic programs, performance-enhancing drugs which go undiscovered, etc. - which may or may not have parallel circumstances with this analogy. However, are we really demanding that fictional superpowers be more "fair" than mundane aspects of our reality? There's nothing desirable to a human in this world which everyone has equal access to, not really.
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2018-07-05, 06:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?
Charles Atlas superpowers, acquired through training, are the fairest it can get, really. But most settings where that is a thing screw it up by having additional (and often superior) ways to power which are blatantly reliant on accident of birth or circumstance.
"It's the fate of all things under the sky,
to grow old and wither and die."
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2018-07-05, 10:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2011
Re: Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?
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2018-07-05, 11:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2012
Re: Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?
Of course, we're all somewhat limited by our nature... but "you're too naturally talented for this to be fair" is not fair so much as enforcing mindless mediocrity. No matter what field you point to, select individuals will rise far above the rest. While others will have setbacks in their life and never have the opportunity to try. That's just reality.
The "fairness" of something isn't supposed to be based on meeting some impossible absolute average and then assessing the individual based on some voluntaristic paradigm, to grasp their... I don't know, Spirit? Some non-material basis for human ability? it's to take a newborn child, knowing nothing about their particular traits and abilities, and ask whether X is within their reach presupposing they desire X. This anonymous theoretical newborn could have all the potential in the world - you don't know - and they can be born in any circumstances to any parent.
The "unfairness" of bloodlines is to suggest that because you're born to so-and-so you will obtain X regardless of your individual abilities, or that those similar to or of greater capabilities as individuals don't matter because the blood - or name its attached to - is the merit itself. Nepotism, generally. Though super-powered universes can make it a genuine necessity.
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2018-07-06, 01:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2012
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- Across the spiraling sea.
Re: Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?
Not to mention that people who are more talented at learning Nen generally have traumatic backgrounds or otherwise lived a difficult life that essentially laid the groundwork for them to be more receptive to the fundamentals of Nen (I.e. fending for yourself in the wilderness, growing up in a garbage dump with your garbage dump friends, having your clan massacred by the garbage dump people, etc.).
When in comes to Nature vs. Nurture, HxH falls hard on the side of nurture easily 9 times out of 10.
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2018-07-06, 02:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2011
Re: Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?
Actually, it is. When most people talk about a fair world, they're indeed asking for a world where you can just claim "I want to do X" and you stand a good shot at doing it.
And that's why technology is the great equalizer, since it can be a) replicated/copied and b) passed around. With the right tech you can become a great diver, you can move faster than any olympic champion, you can fly over the olympic champion, you can share your opinion with people all around the world, you've even got plenty of newbie tiny indie tech companies managing to take on veteran titanic tech companies with just the right spirit inspiration like it was an anime plot, etc, etc.
Case in point in the pokemonverse we have pokeballs and all the related technology allowing even preschoolers to easily catch and train their own pokemon, then go around challenging anybody for pokemon battles, and as pointed out you can even find preschoolers stronger than the Elite Four themselves.
If your fairness standard is "X's totally fair as long as you were born a rare prodigy and/or managed to get in the good graces of one of the super rare X masters" noise, then it's not fair at all.
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2018-07-06, 04:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2012
Re: Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?
No. You want an equal opportunity to accomplish it. The concept of merit is the basis for a fair society, not everyone getting what the want - which is functionally untenable and why we have economics and politics in the first place. That, if you were to apply for a job against other applicants you aren't given a "good shot", but the same reasonable chance that every other applicant has without bias.
Content of your character and whatnot.
Technology isn't evenly distributed. Resources to produce and maintain technology are not evenly distributed. Most importantly, technical knowledge is not evenly distributed. I won't say technology isn't generally beneficial, because things like vaccines and clean water are pretty meaningful for basic standard of health among other things, but you're ignoring fairly significant disparities in access and the significance of wealth here.
Also little rose-tinted there with the corporate competition.
Besides, even if the driver can out-speed an Olympian, driving isn't exactly empty of skill nor without disparities in ability.between individuals either. You just created different skill-sets which distinguish people, which really can't be ignored. Plus, the Olympian's still an Olympian, it's kind of missing the point to suggest they're failing to utilize modern conveyance to make their lives easier and instead do all this hard work and training ****.
I guess if you ignore basic logic and reality for gameplay mechanics, sure. I mean we all know Pokemon is just chalk full of verisimilitude, after all.
Though have you considered the Preschooler is simply an unparalleled genius of which none of us can compare? After all, there's no way someone who's 6 or under should have the time to train a Pokemon to powers rivalling a fully grown adult whose been doing so professionally for many times the preschooler has been alive. Presumably raising and battling Pokemon is an actual skill, and the difference between trainers isn't arbitrary. That this preschooler has Pokemon that happens to be so enormously powerful - to the point it can dwarf even the canonically most powerful trainers in the region - does seem rather unfair to me. Seriously, what would be the point for those fully grown adult trainers anymore? Clearly nothing you've done matters in the long run, because if a preschooler can outstrip you than literally anyone can without effort.
I'm fairly certain raising animals is actually pretty difficult in real life and probably isn't a task you should leave in the hands of a very small child... much less have them engage in fights with them. Which I do not advise in general. Our animals don't shoot out lightning bolts, burn hotter than the sun's corona, or launch out micro-black holes either.
My fairness standard is for effort = potential power. It's actually pretty simple really.Last edited by Kitten Champion; 2018-07-06 at 04:50 AM.
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2018-07-06, 05:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?
Wouldn't the Culture fulfil all the criteria? As far as I can tell all of it's citizens have pretty much the same access to tech, money isn't an issue and even gender/race don't matter as you can pretty much change your body to whatever you want.
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2018-07-06, 06:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2012
Re: Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?
I think the issue there - although I quibble with defining Superpowers when in their own context they aren't really, but superpowers don't have a set in stone definition I guess - is the Culture isn't the totality of life in the Culture's universe. Correct me if I'm wrong since I've only read a few of the novels, but the imbalance between The Culture hyperpower and those that orbit around it - or outright oppose it in some fashion - is a pretty significant aspect of the series as it's where the bulk of the conflict comes.
I do seem to recall in Use of Weapons - I think - that the Culture use their advanced physiological augmenting biotech as a soft power tool to leverage foreign leaders into compliance with their moral standards.
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2018-07-06, 08:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2008
Re: Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?
Post series Codex Alera is engineered to be pretty fair.
I don't know everything merely everything of importance-Fidelias
Avatar by the illustrious Lord Raziere
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2018-07-06, 12:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?
I think the matter of it is along the lines of how hard is it to do. If you need to be an Olympic athlete to even start getting the superpowers, then it's effectively limited to a tiny portion of the population.
Aren't what elementals you can wield determined by genetics?Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP
Procrastination: MLP
Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
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2018-07-06, 12:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Across the spiraling sea.
Re: Which superpowered Universe is the most fair?
I've never read or heard of it but I would like to say that whether or not your powers are determined at birth shouldn't be a point of discussion. Rather, we should look at the quality disparity of the powers themselves, i.e. whether two people of equal skill but who were born with different powers still have an equal chance of winning against the other*.
*obviously It's a little more complicated than that but it's a good jumping off point.