What do you like about Marvel movies?

[NamelessNPC]

Hello, everyone.
I'm writing a paper for my media and cultural industries class and maybe some of you can give me a hand.

The paper is on how cultural products are consumed. The specific case is Iron Man 2, as representative of the MCU.

The question I'm intested in is as follows: for those of you who are female and enjoy these movies, why would you say that they have such an appeal to girls or women (compared to other products of the same action/adventure genre, traditionally marketed and mainly enjoyed by male boys/adults)? Why do you like the MCU movies?

There are no wrong answers, and thanks!

[Some Android]

Not a female, but could I post anyway?

I've noticed that probably ever film in the MCU has a forced scene where the male protagonist is shirtless so we can see their abs and pecs. No matter how forced to the point there's like a 30 second scene of Peter Parker stripping in front of the camera..I mean if you're the sort of girl that likes that sort of thing - men with large muscles. I do jokingly say that my favorite part of X-Men Apocalypse was Olivia Munn's outfit. So no judgements.

Also the Valkyrie in Thor Ragnarok is my favorite character in that film and probably most of the MCU. So a cool female character there. Also Gamora and Nebula. And the Ant Man sequel is supposedly going to heavily feature the Wasp. I use the word "supposedly" because I haven't seen it and want to err on the side of caution in case the trailers lie. I mean I also though Iron Man would be in more of Spiderman Homecoming based on the trailers.

As for me I've pretty much have gotten fatigue from the MCU and my only real interest in watching them is to see what funny thing Stan Lee is gonna do.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Not a female, but could I post anyway?

I've noticed that probably ever film in the MCU has a forced scene where the male protagonist is shirtless so we can see their abs and pecs. No matter how forced to the point there's like a 30 second scene of Peter Parker stripping in front of the camera..I mean if you're the sort of girl that likes that sort of thing - men with large muscles. I do jokingly say that my favorite part of X-Men Apocalypse was Olivia Munn's outfit. So no judgements.

Hey, the ladies deserve just as much fan service as the guys get, fan service for all!

[Some Android]

Hey, the ladies deserve just as much fan service as the guys get, fan service for all!

I'm fine with fan service (for/from either gender/sexuality) so long as there's decent enough context and it doesn't distract from the narrative:

-Thor being shirtless so his wounds can be treated after his match against Hulk in Thor Ragnarok and having a shirtless conversation for a few minutes with Hulk: I can tolerate that.
-Peter Park stripping in real time in Spider-Man Homecoming: That scene was obnoxious. There's a reason people don't show things in real time.

Not to mention there's a scene later on when one of his friends discovers he's Spider-Man and Peter Parker is again briefly shirtless. That scene I could tolerate.

I don't know what else to say because I don't want to derail this thread too much.

I didn't really like Civil War, but there were some cool ways people got punched (in the face). So I liked that.

[Psyren]

As a gay man I have a general appreciation for Marvel's use of the female gaze. I don't just mean the aesthetic appeal; the objective fact is that it's an underserved niche in Hollywood. There have been plenty of shirtless dudes in blockbuster films across decades of cinema of course, but too often they're power fantasies for a presumed straight male audience, just as scantily-clad female posing is often titillation for an also presumed straight male audience.

When Marvel's male heroes strip, this often takes place in positions or contexts of disempowerment or emotional vulnerability. Starlord's first shirtless scene for instance comes at a low point, when he's being thrown in prison. Drax's soul is laid bare almost as frequently as his chest, a sharp contrast for the typical "team tough guy" who ignores or suppresses his feelings. Thor wanders through Jane Foster's apartment in a daze, still reeling from his punishment at Odin's hands. As the old adage goes, it's "porn with a story." I can't speak for any female viewers, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that that was at least some of the appeal.

[Faily]

Hmm, been a while since I saw Iron Man 2, but here goes:


What has appealed to me the most about Marvel movies is, quite simply, because I like superheroes. Male and female ones alike.

I admit to being drawn in by seeing female characters allowed to be badass, and when Marvel first got their train running and introduced Black Widow... well, I felt 100% certain that Marvel would give us a Black Widow movie before DC could even dare think of a Wonder Woman movie. Sheesh... how wrong I was. So when Wonder Woman delivered a movie I was deeply satisfied with as both a superhero movie and a badass-female-lead movie, I've kinda looked back at Marvel and thought "you can do so much more".

Not saying that I don't like the female characters in Marvel. Okoye and Shuri are amazing and my favorites hands-down, Gamora is badass and I think Mantis is great, but in the end... I've kinda felt like the movies are still dominantly male and could dare to let the women have more impact. I was disappointed with Gamora's role in Infinity War as I would've loved to see her go toe-to-toe with Papa Thanos in the big fight along with the rest of the Guardians, rather than the sappy stuff it became (couldn't Starlord have taken her place, please?).

So, all in all... I like Marvel movies because I like superheroes. Women being allowed to be badass is a plus, but they still have ways to go (Black Panther's female cast was the best by far, imo).

[Some Android]

Classic Iron Man

Was that's Stark's first armor he used to get out of the cave that's just a steel chrome without any red or gold?

[Reddish Mage]

So, all in all... I like Marvel movies because I like superheroes. Women being allowed to be badass is a plus, but they still have ways to go (Black Panther's female cast was the best by far, imo).

I find the female parts to be one of the greatest weaknesses of the films pre-Black Panther.

First there isn’t a single female-led movie. Not one.

Second Black Widow, the only female hero for the longest time, went straight to being the serious type, willing to sacrifice for the team (and Hawkeye). This is well executed, but aside from the one scene at the beginning of Avengers we never get to actually see her as a badass female James Bond, or her tangled history.

In other words Black Widow not only failed to get her own movie but she doesn’t get a character development arc in all the movies she has appeared in.

Guardians of the Galaxy has Gamora and Nebula’s lives revolves around Thanos and fighting each other. They do not get a moment (other than in the opening where they fight about the infinity stone) to talk about anything else to each other or another female character. There’s a missed opportunity, not suggested until Infinity War, where they could have hinted at having a more complex dynamic.

Valkyrie is cool but just disappears.

Finally, Hope Van Dyne is sidelined and Janet is out of the movie as a character entirely in Ant Man.

Female presence is something being treated in a very gingerly manner. Except for Black Panther (which didn’t have huge expectations and sounds like it got the green light as a diversity initiative) it’s almost as if they feel like too much female presence could ruin the movies.

[Anonymouswizard]

(compared to other products of the same action/adventure genre, traditionally marketed and mainly enjoyed by male boys/adults)

I actually find this assumption rather biased. I've met many, many women who heavily enjoy action movies of all stripes, from Star Wars (remember, it was loved by kids in general when it came out), to Die Hard 6: Explosions in a Building. On the other hand, I'm a man who decided he'd rather see a Chick Flick over Rogue One (actually turned out to be a good film).

Hey, the ladies deserve just as much fan service as the guys get, fan service for all!

Fanservice is great, as long as the objectification inherent in it isn't discriminatory. Although I'm not saying that all films need an equal amount of male and female fanservice, just that the amount in the industry should be roughly equal.

Although most of the men in the MCU are a bit too muscular for me. I'd rather have them skinny or with a bit of fat, I'm not that into defined muscles.


I'd probably boil down the reason to a single simple thing, they're good movies not overly pushed as one gender. Except for Guardians of the Galaxy, can't work out why anybody likes that pi[we apologise for the poster being removed to calm down.]

[Psyren]

Not saying that I don't like the female characters in Marvel. Okoye and Shuri are amazing and my favorites hands-down, Gamora is badass and I think Mantis is great, but in the end... I've kinda felt like the movies are still dominantly male and could dare to let the women have more impact. I was disappointed with Gamora's role in Infinity War as I would've loved to see her go toe-to-toe with Papa Thanos in the big fight along with the rest of the Guardians, rather than the sappy stuff it became (couldn't Starlord have taken her place, please?).

Nebula going toe-to-toe with him was just as good imo.

First there isn’t a single female-led movie. Not one.

Give it time.

Except for Black Panther (which didn’t have huge expectations and sounds like it got the green light as a diversity initiative) it’s almost as if they feel like too much female presence could ruin the movies.

Even if this were true ([citation needed]), why is "diversity initiative" a negative?
It's not like that's mutually exclusive with "we have a great idea for a screenplay."

[Faily]

Nebula going toe-to-toe with him was just as good imo.

Not really? Nebula is a seriously underdeveloped character, I feel I know more about Agent Coulson from his appearances and he's not actually an important part of the story. Nebula fighting Thanos was as impactful to me as any other random person that's slightly tougher fight Thanos.

She gets some development in Guardians 2, but I felt it could've been more to really drive home some of the pathos they were trying for in Infinity War.

Give it time.

But how long are we supposed to wait? The first Iron Man movie, the movie considered to be the kickstarter of the giant MCU-train, was 10 years ago. In that time, female characters in MCU often tend to just fall into 1. need to be rescued, 2. love interest for the male protagonist, 3. eye-candy. As I said in my first post, I legitimately thought Marvel was going to give us a Black Widow film when we saw their plans gearing up for a big movie-universe. After all, they had introduced her in Iron Man 2 and she was going to be in the Avengers! And... as Reddish Mage said, she hasn't moved at all from where she was since she first arrived on screen, apart from changing her hair everytime we see her.

Black Panther still stands as the strongest representation of women in the MCU, where all the women in Wakanda are treated with respect (even the Jabari, when dissing on T'Challa and Shuri, attack Shuri's age and not her gender when making disparaging remarks, which I found to be interesting). Nakia and T'Challa were obviously once a couple who still care for eachother, but the movie doesn't rest on that nor do they make a fuss about their relationship. It exists there, but the movie focuses instead on T'Challa's respect for Nakia's passion that drives her to help others, and Nakia's resourcefullness, rather than them easily falling into the cliche of jeopardizing the mission because they get into a fight or something. The Dora Milaje are a group of elite female warriors, second only to the Black Panther (I think I saw what could've been women amongst the vision of previous Black Panthers but I admit I could be misremembering), and Okoye herself is allowed to be strong without being reduced to something sappy when she must fight her lover to protect Wakanda.

It might just be my gut-feeling, but I suspect Black Panther will still stand stronger on female representation than the upcoming Captain Marvel-movie... which will have a female lead. I'm just concerned with the direction of a majority of Marvel movies to actually portray a female lead in their own stand-alone film, simply because I don't feel like Marvel on the whole take their female characters seriously, with the exception of Black Panther as detailed above.


PS: I am amused at the amount of male opinion when the OP requested opinions from females on the topic? Not saying guys aren't allowed to comment (by all means do!), but on the whole just amused by the ratio of men to women so far.

[Reddish Mage]

why is "diversity initiative" a negative?
It's not like that's mutually exclusive with "we have a great idea for a screenplay."

Can you not see my point? What I’m saying is they had no idea the thing would make money. Black Panther is not coming from the formula and ideas they’ve been using to build MCU movies.

In other words

Black Panther still stands as the strongest representation of women in the MCU...


...I don't feel like Marvel on the whole take their female characters seriously, with the exception of Black Panther as detailed

[Psyren]

Nebula fighting Thanos was as impactful to me as any other random person that's slightly tougher fight Thanos.

You do know she's ALSO his daughter, right?

But how long are we supposed to wait?

You can find the answer to this easily if you try?

What I’m saying is they had no idea the thing would make money. Black Panther is not coming from the formula and ideas they’ve been using to build MCU movies.

Of course they knew it would make money. It overperformed expectations certainly, but those expectations were still pretty decent, especially for a superhero movie.

As for it not following the MCU formula, did we not watch the same movie? It was note for note, right down to the initial villain that was a dark reflection of the hero. (See Abomination, Iron Monger, Yellowjacket, Red Skull...)

[Reddish Mage]

Of course they knew it would make money. It overperformed expectations certainly, but those expectations were still pretty decent, especially for a superhero movie.

You realize “box office expectations” are a game investors and the news media plays and is not the same thing what numbers the executives had in mind when they greenlight a project?

The rest sounds like critiquing grammar. Do you want to say female representation is strong in Marvel Movies generally and Black Panther isn’t a particularly different movie in this respect? Because otherwise, I don’t see the point of your nitpicks.

[Psyren]

You realize “box office expectations” are a game investors and the news media plays and is not the same thing what numbers the executives had in mind when they greenlight a project?

"They had no idea the thing would make money" is a completely ridiculous assertion. If they didn't think it would have made money, it wouldn't have been greenlit, period.

The rest sounds like critiquing grammar. Do you want to say female representation is strong in Marvel Movies generally and Black Panther isn’t a particularly different movie in this respect? Because otherwise, I don’t see the point of your nitpicks.

My point is that "diversity initiative" as a reason for Black Panther's existence is a vague accusation at best and a dogwhistle at worst.

[Calthropstu]

I liked them earlier. The x-men movies were good and the first avengers movie was great. First two iron man and the first hulk movie were all good.

But the movies went downhill. It started with the ultron movie, and as time went on they got more convoluted. After the horrible mess that was civil war, I stopped watching marvel movies. We need new sources of entertainment. I find American movies and tv to be... Droll.

[RossN]

I'm just concerned with the direction of a majority of Marvel movies to actually portray a female lead in their own stand-alone film, simply because I don't feel like Marvel on the whole take their female characters seriously, with the exception of Black Panther as detailed above.

I agree that Marvel have quite a poor track record with female leads but ironically I think it's partially the opposite. Marvel treats their female characters too seriously. Or rather they are afraid to take them to the same places as their male heroes.

A key part of the Marvel formula* is making the main character look like, well, a dork from time time. Tony Stark, Starlord and Thor are the kings of this but every movie has our hero go through one scene where they go through the verbal equivalent of slipping on a banana peel and getting their ego punctured or doing a pratfall, or letting their tongue run away with them while trying to look cool.

Literal (as against verbal) slapstick violence is another big part of the Marvel Brand - think Tony Stark crashing through the floor of his own mansion or the numerous times Thor gets his ass kicked around.

Now not every hero is treated like this. Captain America is usually treated much more seriously, but even in his case the movies can get jokes from his sheer niceness and his fish out of temporal water status.

Marvel heroines in contrast tend to be played much more straight laced with (wo)manchild moments few and far between. Black Widow is witty but otherwise very serious, with even her 'flaw' being a serious, dramatic quality which never threatens the dignity of her character.


*Caveat: I have not seen Black Panther.

[Saph]

I agree that Marvel have quite a poor track record with female leads but ironically I think it's partially the opposite. Marvel treats their female characters too seriously. Or rather they are afraid to take them to the same places as their male heroes.

This is something that I think a lot of people miss. Brandon Sanderson has a good article making the point that what makes a character interesting is usually their weaknesses, not their strengths. Black Widow doesn't have any interesting weaknesses that you can hang a story on, at least not as she's been written in the last few films. (I can actually think of a couple of ways that you could make a movie with her work, but it'd require doing some things that I haven't seen any of the Marvel screenwriters do.)

*Caveat: I have not seen Black Panther.

It's the same. The female characters are generally flat, and all of the fun in their scenes comes from them interacting with T'challa or Martin Freeman.

[Eldan]

That's not true! There's like four developed female characters in Black Panther! Like, the hero's stern mother, his nerdy sister, his bodyguard and his love interest! See, all developed, independent women!

[Faily]

You do know she's ALSO his daughter, right?



You can find the answer to this easily if you try?

1. Yes, but as I wrote in my previous post, Nebula is a seriously underdeveloped character. Yes, she is Thanos' daughter too, but she has not had the screentime nor the plot-development to by anything else than "argh! me Thanos' angry daughter who hate Gamora!". Gamora on the other hand has had development with ditching Thanos and joining the Guardians, becoming romantically involved with Starlord, we've seen the world she came from and how she became Thanos' daughter and how he treated her at first. That is already by a mile much more than Nebula has.

2. You're missing the point that I'm referring to when we will get an MCU movie that actually does a female character well, not when Captain Marvel releases. As I touched upon in my previous post, I am concerned with Marvel handling a female-lead movie since they can't even seem to write their female side-characters well most of the time.

[Calthropstu]

1. Yes, but as I wrote in my previous post, Nebula is a seriously underdeveloped character. Yes, she is Thanos' daughter too, but she has not had the screentime nor the plot-development to by anything else than "argh! me Thanos' angry daughter who hate Gamora!". Gamora on the other hand has had development with ditching Thanos and joining the Guardians, becoming romantically involved with Starlord, we've seen the world she came from and how she became Thanos' daughter and how he treated her at first. That is already by a mile much more than Nebula has.

2. You're missing the point that I'm referring to when we will get an MCU movie that actually does a female character well, not when Captain Marvel releases. As I touched upon in my previous post, I am concerned with Marvel handling a female-lead movie since they can't even seem to write their female side-characters well most of the time.

...

So yeah... Can anyone tell me why they should have to? Is there anything WRONG with them specializing in male leads? I fail to see a problem.

[lord_khaine]

PS: I am amused at the amount of male opinion when the OP requested opinions from females on the topic? Not saying guys aren't allowed to comment (by all means do!), but on the whole just amused by the ratio of men to women so far.

I suspect its more or less the same male/to female ratio on these bords of people ready to spend time discussing the Marvel universe.

I agree that Marvel have quite a poor track record with female leads but ironically I think it's partially the opposite. Marvel treats their female characters too seriously. Or rather they are afraid to take them to the same places as their male heroes.

A key part of the Marvel formula* is making the main character look like, well, a dork from time time. Tony Stark, Starlord and Thor are the kings of this but every movie has our hero go through one scene where they go through the verbal equivalent of slipping on a banana peel and getting their ego punctured or doing a pratfall, or letting their tongue run away with them while trying to look cool.

Literal (as against verbal) slapstick violence is another big part of the Marvel Brand - think Tony Stark crashing through the floor of his own mansion or the numerous times Thor gets his ass kicked around.

Now not every hero is treated like this. Captain America is usually treated much more seriously, but even in his case the movies can get jokes from his sheer niceness and his fish out of temporal water status.

Marvel heroines in contrast tend to be played much more straight laced with (wo)manchild moments few and far between. Black Widow is witty but otherwise very serious, with even her 'flaw' being a serious, dramatic quality which never threatens the dignity of her character.

I think thats a perfect point. We have laughted at Tony. We have laughed at Thor. We have repeatedly laughted at Peter Quil.
But we have newer been allowed to laugh at Black Widow. Or Gamora. They are pushed up on a pedestal. Allowed to be to perfect.

And that does make them a little flat compared to the very flawed male heroes.

[Psyren]

1. Yes, but as I wrote in my previous post, Nebula is a seriously underdeveloped character. Yes, she is Thanos' daughter too, but she has not had the screentime nor the plot-development to by anything else than "argh! me Thanos' angry daughter who hate Gamora!".

She got a whole backstory in Guardians 2 if you were paying attention. And we're undoubtedly going to get more from her in A4 because (a) she's the only "Guardian" besides Rocket to survived the "snap", (b) she's the surviving character with the most connection to/information on the big bad by far, and (c) she played a central role in the Infinity Gauntlet comic event, on which Infinity War and its sequel are based.

2. You're missing the point that I'm referring to when we will get an MCU movie that actually does a female character well, not when Captain Marvel releases.

Oh, of course! Well my crystal ball is unfortunately in the shop, but as soon as I get it back I'll let you know

A key part of the Marvel formula* is making the main character look like, well, a dork from time time. Tony Stark, Starlord and Thor are the kings of this but every movie has our hero go through one scene where they go through the verbal equivalent of slipping on a banana peel and getting their ego punctured or doing a pratfall, or letting their tongue run away with them while trying to look cool.

Nonsense, they do have female characters that do this; it's just usually not Widow. Mantis is 110% a dork, and most of Shuri's scenes have this as well. Even space-ninja-assassin Gamora gets scenes like talking too loudly because she's never worn headphones before, or being awestruck by Kevin Bacon.

As for Widow, she typically doesn't get scenes like these because she's so often the straight-man (metaphorically) to the ensemble's zaniness. When your coworkers include a deity, two geniuses and a super-soldier, having someone normal that can take them all down a peg is more valuable than a 5th goofball, especially when Hawkeye is already playing that role.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

...

So yeah... Can anyone tell me why they should have to? Is there anything WRONG with them specializing in male leads? I fail to see a problem.

Well, give that by your own admission you are no longer intending to be a consumer of their films, what you think they should or should not do is completely irrelevant.

On the opposite side of the spectrum, the opinions on future developments of people who still intend to consume the MCU property should be taken into account. And given the significant percentage of viewership that is drawn to the beefcake of Thor & similar happens to be female, if they ask for a shift in focus to non-male leads, it is a request worth considering.

Especially since there is no particular reason to make gender central to the lead. You could easily tell the exact same story of any of the marvel movies with a female lead instead of a male with minor or even no modifications. And it'd be refreshing if it was so.

---

I agree that Marvel is likely a bit hesitant of making a female lead a prat for our enjoyment. The closest Netflix has got to it is the drunken actions of Jessica Jones, and that is not quite the same. In fact, the Netflix characters in general are taken too seriously to be prats like the cinema MCU ones, relaying instead on side characters (some of which can indeed be female) to bring in some humour.

Grey Wolf

[Lord Joeltion]

I don't quite get OP's question. If he is implying heroes/comics/action movies aren't for girls, that is not my experience at all. I could answer for my GF and some females I know what they enjoy about MCU, but I can't figure out which answer OP is looking for.

I admit to being drawn in by seeing female characters allowed to be badass, and when Marvel first got their train running and introduced Black Widow... well, I felt 100% certain that Marvel would give us a Black Widow movie before DC could even dare think of a Wonder Woman movie. Sheesh... how wrong I was. So when Wonder Woman delivered a movie I was deeply satisfied with as both a superhero movie and a badass-female-lead movie, I've kinda looked back at Marvel and thought "you can do so much more".

Not shift-blaming, but WW is a completely different issue; because that movie has been requested for fans since... well, since the 60's actually. DC never delivered a single female lead movie period. Marvel is completely the opposite, because it has been meddling with female-lead/co-protagonist for quite a while.

The thing with Black Widow is... that all her fame comes down from the movies. Alone. There's literally no story centered on her from the comics that is worth telling on a movie; and MCU likes to base a huge portion of their universe on the comic-verse.

But the real issue I believe MCU has been taking so long to deliver a compelling female movie/character is that, sadly, ALL of the historically fan-favourite females were sold to other companies. MCU doesn't have any of the X-girls, and they are like 95% of the fan favourites. They don't even have Spider-Woman, who could have been a nice addition to the spider-verse. Jessica Jones is a fan-favourite, even if his fandom is smaller than the rest; but she doesn't fit at all in MCU, hence her Netflix series. Of all the girls at MCU's disposal, I think it's fair to say that the company has done the best, for what was available to them. Back in Phase 1, nobody would have bet on a Ms. Marvel movie, the character had to go through a severe refurbishing through all these years so she can now be worth a movie (and no, I don't accept that it might be just a coincidence). A movie based on the old Carol, for the old fanbase, could have potentially been a bigger flop than the Elektra movie. Current Carol will almost certainly not flop, she has a much stronger base from where to build a solid movie.

And there's also the fact that the Marvel-verse always revolved more around teams/families than individuals, barring some exceptions. It's no coincidence MCU chose only Hulk, Thor, Cap and Strange for their single-lead movies (Ant-Man is as much about him as it is about Wasp, the name is kinda deceptive). So basically, yes, MCU has overlooked females. I just think it can't truly be reduced as simple oversight or bias against female leads on their part. MCU (and its related products) has done a lot to shove strong female characters to the massive media. Read, "a lot", as "when compared to the other companies", both from the heroic as well as the action genre.

Not saying that I don't like the female characters in Marvel. Okoye and Shuri are amazing and my favorites hands-down, Gamora is badass and I think Mantis is great, but in the end... I've kinda felt like the movies are still dominantly male and could dare to let the women have more impact. I was disappointed with Gamora's role in Infinity War as I would've loved to see her go toe-to-toe with Papa Thanos in the big fight along with the rest of the Guardians, rather than the sappy stuff it became (couldn't Starlord have taken her place, please?).

That's what I'm talking about. No, Gamora served her role well in Infinity War, because its HER story. Thanos having her story with any other character would have made no sense, both within the MCU verse as well as for the eyes of comic fans. Gamora's story is mostly about Thanos, and the opposite is also true (barring the "mostly"). Even the mere fact that characters like her and Okoye, Mantis, Shuri et al; are now in the mouth of people is a huge accomplishment on Marvel's part. Gamora? Who the heck knew who she was back in the 2000's?* Okoye? Shuri? Are they Chinese? A lot of people also seem to forget that Black Widow has always been "that secret spy for Fury who appears every once in a while" for those who actually read some Avengers back in the day**. One would have expected Wasp, Scarlet Witch, She-Hulk, Ms. Marvel or even Mockingbird to appear on the first Avenger movie (I mean, when nobody suspected there was actually going to be an Avengers movie) rather than Black Widow. Don't get me wrong, Black Widow was a fan-favourite, but she never was heroic to deserve that place. Fans only started asking for her movie because of Scarlett's performance. And even today... I quite don't get why.

*To be fair, all of the Guardians were also Jane/John Does
**Okay, that was hyperbole. I never was a big fan of them. The following sentence still stands true.

[RossN]

Nonsense, they do have female characters that do this; it's just usually not Widow. Mantis is 110% a dork, and most of Shuri's scenes have this as well. Even space-ninja-assassin Gamora gets scenes like talking too loudly because she's never worn headphones before, or being awestruck by Kevin Bacon.

As for Widow, she typically doesn't get scenes like these because she's so often the straight-man (metaphorically) to the ensemble's zaniness. When your coworkers include a deity, two geniuses and a super-soldier, having someone normal that can take them all down a peg is more valuable than a 5th goofball, especially when Hawkeye is already playing that role.

I'll hand you Mantis, though she is a very minor character and I can't speak to Shuri not having seen Black Panther (though her scenes in The Avengers certainly don't seem to indicate much dorkiness - hyperbrilliance and enthusiasm maybe but that certainly isn't the same thing as being made to look foolish or slipping up on her arrogance ala Thor.)

With Gamora and Widow though I think their positions on their teams are very revealing, and you touched on them yourself albeit without exploring the implications. Gamora is by far the most serious, straight-man character in the Guardians. One of her lines is quite literally "I am going to die surrounded by the biggest idiots in the galaxy." Sure she might have a few jokes thrown her way but her narrative role is to be the level headed contrast to the man-children surrounding her.

Widow is actually even more extreme. I can't recall any moments where the audiences is invited to laugh at her, rather than with her. Perhaps as you say there should be a straight man in the group but it is a bit dispriting that it always seems to be the girl.

I think it's a significant part of the reason Marvel have taken so long with bringing out a female led film. They just don't feel comfortable 'making a female lead a prat for our enjoyment' to steal Grey_Wolf_c's line there.

[Psyren]

Mantis isn't "minor," she's a core member of the Guardians and has shown up in other books as well (e.g. as an Avenger.) She just happened to miss their first MCU outing.

I fail to see why Widow needs to be a "prat." A Widow movie would likely be an origin story and bear more resemblance to something along the lines of a Jason Bourne, James Bond or Ethan Hunt vehicle than a traditional superhero flick; while they can certainly struggle or get defeated, those folks typically leave any comic relief to other characters too and nobody begrudges them for it. Why should that be any different for her?

[lord_khaine]

Its also why i think Captain Marvel has such massive potential.
If they allow her to slip up, make mistakes, make a fool of herself like Tony and Thor has repeatedly done, then they could also build her up to the same degree.
But if they make her a super-powered version of Black Widow, then i doubt she will rise up above B rank.

[RossN]

Mantis isn't "minor," she's a core member of the Guardians and has shown up in other books as well (e.g. as an Avenger.) She just happened to miss their first MCU outing.

I fail to see why Widow needs to be a "prat." A Widow movie would likely be an origin story and bear more resemblance to something along the lines of a Jason Bourne, James Bond or Ethan Hunt vehicle than a traditional superhero flick; while they can certainly struggle or get defeated, those folks typically leave any comic relief to other characters too and nobody begrudges them for it. Why should that be any different for her?

The comics aren't really a factor for most of the audience though. They haven't read them. As far as the MCU is concerned - which is what we are talking about - Mantis is a fairly minor character.

And the reason we are discussing whether Widow needs to be a "prat" is that is something Marvel movie leads are at least some of the time. Generally the superhero in a Marvel superhero movie does a lot of the heavy lifting comedy wise. Now I suppose you could argue that it doesn't have to be that way but are you at least willing to admit a movie where the lead is an entirely ultra competent straight 'man' with no goofiness is at least a little different to the Marvel formula?

That's the issue I (and others) have, that Marvel are unable/unwilling to apply a formula that works for their male heroes to their female ones. And its a shame because a lot of us want to see that instead of a gender swapped Jason Bourne clone.

I know Joss Whedon is a bit of a tarnished brand these days but focusing solely on his work as against the man himself I'd cite Buffy Summers as an excellent example of what I'd love to see in a Marvel movie heroine: she's intelligent, charismatic, incredibly badass and heroic, but also screws up a lot and at times she does look like a fool. Obviously a TV series is very different to a movie but it does show that a superheoine doesn't have to be on a pedestal the entire time.

[Metalicana]

When Marvel's male heroes strip, this often takes place in positions or contexts of disempowerment or emotional vulnerability.

What are you talking about have you seen the first captain america movie?