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  1. - Top - End - #61
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: What do you like about Marvel movies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    And lord knows the marketing budget (which is counted separately from that of the film) would have been much higher for BP. I didn't see any Kendrick albums or shoe deals for Ant-Man after all.
    Any clue what the dollar figure was for those deals (and for that matter, which way it flowed?)

    I ask because those product/promotional deals apparently vary pretty widely. The most common is product placement in exchange for promotion (i.e. whatever car company getting into the Fast and the Furious movies, in exchange for funding its own advertisements in which the movies are included.) However, at one extreme Quaker Oats fully financed (as it it was the one that paid the movie makers, not the other way around) the first Willy Wonka movie in part to go on as an investment, but mostly to be able to make a tie-in product. There are probably examples where the parties involved decided that the movie had more to gain than to offer and was thus the one paying cash as part of the deal, but it's possible this wasn't one of them.

    With respect to the shoes, shoe culture is big among black Americans, and even if you had your doubts about the popularity of Black Panther among whites, unless the producers of Black Panther were completely tone-deaf and borderline racist, chances are it would do decently among black audiences. So to me, it seems most likely that the shoe deal would either be a straight up marketing for product placement exchange, or else it would be the shoe company, not Marvel, that had to part with a bit of money.

    As for the album, I haven't been able to find any figures either.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: What do you like about Marvel movies?

    It's less about the cost of those specific activities, and more about the fact that they would be in addition to all the regular marketing (billboards, tv spots, social media, interviews, promotions etc) that all big-budget movies have to do. Shoe deals and grammy-winning artist album tie-ins are extras, not the norm; and while they can certainly pay for themselves, it's still a risk until they do so.

    And speaking of extras - BP bought time during Superbowl LII as well, which doesn't come cheap. That's another expenditure that not all blockbuster movies do, even Marvel movies.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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  3. - Top - End - #63
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: What do you like about Marvel movies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    It's less about the cost of those specific activities, and more about the fact that they would be in addition to all the regular marketing (billboards, tv spots, social media, interviews, promotions etc) that all big-budget movies have to do. Shoe deals and grammy-winning artist album tie-ins are extras, not the norm; and while they can certainly pay for themselves, it's still a risk until they do so.
    True, but the original topic was about the studio bean counters, was it not? Your main thesis was that money invested = studio confidence that it would make money. However, that only holds true for money the studio itself is invested. IIRC, for shows like Chuck that were saved from cancellation, the producers actually didn't believe the show was worth investing in, and only kept going because a few outside sponsors/investors were willing to make up the shortfall, for their own reasons.

    Taking the Willy Wonka example as an extreme: If an outside investor is willing to front 100% of the costs of production and marketing in exchange for less than 100% of the take, it doesn't imply (necessarily) that the studio has any faith that the movie would make money.

    Take the tie-in deals for another example. There could be literally zero financial risk to the Fast and the Furious Franchise to let Dodge give you a Charger in exchange for Dodge being allowed to use FF imagery in the advertisements that Dodge pays for. There's possibly a branding risk. I'm guessing these deals generally give the franchise some sort of right to refuse to let Dodge run a FF/Dodge commercial about a great pickup truck for lynching, or something equally blatantly offensive, but you never know when Dodge might put out a new Pinto that tarnishes FF by association.

    I'm not saying your wrong, and the Superbowl commercial is a great point that's gotten me convinced, I'm simply saying that you can't assume all these tie in deals reflect actual studio confidence. If the movie business is anything like the business-business I'm familiar with, you often see entrepreneurs and investors going in on something not because they firmly believe its a billion-dollar business, but because they can piggyback off other folks who for whatever reason are willing to take on a lot of the risk.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: What do you like about Marvel movies?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    I'd put forward a case that Iron Man 2 was the single worst/most irrelevant movie in the entire MCU, with absolutely nothing of importance carrying forward into the franchise. Even Thor 2 at least had the Loki-replaces-Odin plot point that set up for the events of Ragnarok, but IM2 was, as mentioned, '90 minutes of RDJ being charismatic'.
    I think this criticism missed the point of what made Iron Man 2 so bad. The movie was originally going to be the "Demon in a Bottle" storyline that deals with Tony Stark's alcoholism and build up to a third movie fight with the Mandarin. This heavy plot-line not only gets completely reworked but also about half the movie runs like a advertisement for the Avengers before we actually cared about the Avengers.

    As a result the villains, which apparently actually have some development in scenes that got cut, become one note simpletons and the plot feels scattered and underdeveloped. This is the movie that showed the downside of executive meddling and world-building, and got Jon Favreau, the guy who got the MCU started with Iron Man, fired as director.

    So the movie actually leads in to the Avengers and tries to do a lot to build up the franchise with scenes with Black Widow, Nick Fury, and even Agent Coulson, they are just forgettable because they don't work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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  5. - Top - End - #65
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: What do you like about Marvel movies?

    The MCU has actually made me excited for a potential Howard the Duck movie. Never thought I'd have to write those words.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: What do you like about Marvel movies?

    They're generally more fun. No matter how grim and dark and gritty and mature you might make them, superheroes, and this is speaking as someone who absolutely loves superheroes and would love to make her own comics, are an inherently silly concept. Many of DC's more recent efforts shy away from this silliness, almost like they're afraid of it. Sometimes they can pull it off, but a lot of times it's just a lot of thud and blunder that takes itself far too seriously. Now, Marvel, it knows this is silly, and it revels in it, to greater and lesser degrees, allowing its heroes to be very human and flawed as well. Sure, Marvel has its missteps, but, overall, it's a lot more fun to watch a Marvel superhero movie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Calanon View Post
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  7. - Top - End - #67
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: What do you like about Marvel movies?

    Can I bring something up that very few people think? As much as I like the GotG films...well second film...I have to say I do find Groot's actor's performance a little wooden.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: What do you like about Marvel movies?

    Marvel has a different idea of how to make movies. They are teamwork. They are actually doing them more like Marvel comic books, writers and directors working with strong editorial oversight. You might find that the results are bland, formulaic and unsatisfying, but large numbers of people enjoy them immensely and connect with the characters.

    There's really no point in talking about Iron Man 2; it was a learning experience for Marvel Studios, and there's little evidence that Edgar Wright's Ant-Man was going to be a great movie. Let's check back after the next four moviesómaybe there will be a lot more evidence that Marvel is solving the challenge of satisfying the overall studio vision while giving the directors creative room.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: What do you like about Marvel movies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravens_cry View Post
    They're generally more fun. No matter how grim and dark and gritty and mature you might make them, superheroes, and this is speaking as someone who absolutely loves superheroes and would love to make her own comics, are an inherently silly concept. Many of DC's more recent efforts shy away from this silliness, almost like they're afraid of it. Sometimes they can pull it off, but a lot of times it's just a lot of thud and blunder that takes itself far too seriously. Now, Marvel, it knows this is silly, and it revels in it, to greater and lesser degrees, allowing its heroes to be very human and flawed as well. Sure, Marvel has its missteps, but, overall, it's a lot more fun to watch a Marvel superhero movie.
    Yeah, that. And this is reflected in the much lower power level Marvel is able to bring to bear in its superheroes. They have set the ceiling reasonably low so that you don't have to resort to contrivances like kryptonite to challenge the likes of Thor and Iron Man. It's very difficult to do that with Superman, Batman or even Wonder Woman in a meaningful way.

    Also: https://xkcd.com/1004/

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: What do you like about Marvel movies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Yeah, that. And this is reflected in the much lower power level Marvel is able to bring to bear in its superheroes. They have set the ceiling reasonably low so that you don't have to resort to contrivances like kryptonite to challenge the likes of Thor and Iron Man. It's very difficult to do that with Superman, Batman or even Wonder Woman in a meaningful way.

    Also: https://xkcd.com/1004/
    I find power level as a DC-specific criticism very facile. Thor has lifted the Midgard serpent and done other cosmic-level tasks. His Death Battle with Wonder Woman is informative, regardless of what you think of the outcome of what both have done on the most absurd heights of their power.

    In terms of their respective movie universes, both Marvel and DC are very much powered-down. Superman has not been seen in DCU doing even the heights he has done in prior movies (no FTL travel or continent-size lifting feats) let alone in the truly absurd cosmic feats.

    Itís not clear what either movie cast are truly capable of. Infinity War has shown Thor is capable of withstanding the heat (not to mention other forces) of a Star directed straight through him for a sustained amount of time. Doctor Strangeís powers were enough to tangle with Thanos with multiple infinity stones. Those feats actually exceed anything we see MoSupes do.

    Itís possible that, post-Infinity War, MCU characters are well beyond the DCU in power.

    On the level of comics...well there is a whole segment of the internet devoted to this analysis, and the consensus seems to be that it very much depends on the individual matchup. You cannot make a broad rule that DC bears Marvel hands down and thatís true of every character (especially Batman...whose ability to beat anyone seems very much a function of getting sufficient prep time and in some cases one-shot plot devices).

    Iíd agree DC beats Marvel in its power level but I think any sort of real analysis of that is much more difficult than may appear.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: What do you like about Marvel movies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    I find power level as a DC-specific criticism very facile. Thor has lifted the Midgard serpent and done other cosmic-level tasks. His Death Battle with Wonder Woman is informative, regardless of what you think of the outcome of what both have done on the most absurd heights of their power.

    In terms of their respective movie universes, both Marvel and DC are very much powered-down. Superman has not been seen in DCU doing even the heights he has done in prior movies (no FTL travel or continent-size lifting feats) let alone in the truly absurd cosmic feats.
    It's less that Marvel heroes can't reach those heights, as that they've done a better job of laying out what the ground rules are. Maybe MCU Thor can (eventually) do cosmic/comic stuff, but we knew for a fact that the current one - at least, prior to Infinity War - could not, because we watched normal humans and robots and less remarkable aliens going toe-to-toe with him and winning.

    This is the DCEU's biggest problem in my eyes - not laying the ground rules properly. We have no idea what Superman can't do, we only know what we haven't seen him do. We saw him beat Zod in Man of Steel, but we have no real frame of reference for how hard either of them can hit. We saw him lose to Batman in a robot suit ("MARTHA!") but Batman squirted him with everyone's favorite green plot gas first, once again ditching every frame of reference we had. We saw Doomsday(?) kill him, and he held off both Superman and Wonder Woman so he's probably stronger than Zod, but the movie Doomsday had only an iota more backstory than the original, and once again we know nothing.

    Marvel is better at this because they uses their metahuman fights not just as empty titillation for the fans, but to establish the rules of their universe. I don't know how strong movie Thor is, but when he hammered Cap's shield in Avengers, the shield won. I don't know how strong Bucky's arm is, but Spiderman seemed pretty unfazed by it judging by his wisecracking. I don't know exactly how strong Iron Man is, but I know he needs a super-suit to fight Hulk. Almost every single fight they go into conveys valuable information like that.

    For DC, laying that kind of groundwork is even more critical, because their past media adaptations are still fairly fresh in people's memories. There are plenty of people still alive today who saw Superman rewinding time to save Lois in theaters. You can't just hope/assume that people will say "oh, there's no way he's that powerful now, they're doing a more gritty thing." You have to show, not tell, and definitely not hope.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Itís not clear what either movie cast are truly capable of. Infinity War has shown Thor is capable of withstanding the heat (not to mention other forces) of a Star directed straight through him for a sustained amount of time. Doctor Strangeís powers were enough to tangle with Thanos with multiple infinity stones. Those feats actually exceed anything we see MoSupes do.
    These are good examples too, thank you for mentioning them.

    That star you talked about with Thor? It killed him. Only the regenerative properties of his new axe saved his life. We learned that stars are definitely still lethal for the guy, even post-Ragnarok power up. And pre-Ragnarok, he definitely wouldn't have survived that at all.

    Strange could barely handle Thanos' cult lackeys much less the man himself. Certainly he would have been paste without help (from a super-genius, a half-god, and Thanos' own daughter no less, among others.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Itís possible that, post-Infinity War, MCU characters are well beyond the DCU in power.
    We need to know the DCEU's power first before we can make that determination. All we have to go on are empty fights (that tell us nothing) and past movies (that are actively misleading, through no fault of the audience.)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
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