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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Why don't D&D devils, make deals with kids?

    The reason partly depends on the faction.

    Devils can take souls because of an ancient contract with the gods forged by asmodeus in the dawn of time. One of the clauses of the contract is that the souls have to be given willingly, in full knowledge of the implications of the pact and in sound mind, which is also why Devils don't go around charming people before having them sell away their soul for a snickers bar. One of the parts of being in sound mind is being old enough to understand the concepts of soul, eternal life and eternal torture, which is defined in the contract as (amongst other things) being of adult age. So the fact that devils don't sign contracts with children is part of the primeval contract.

    Demons, on the other hand, only forge contracts to obtain what they can't gain by force. In the event that they were able to forge a pact with a child, they'd most likely also be able to kill it and steal its soul, so they'd just do that.

    Secondly, devils and demons aren't as prevalent in the fantasy world as you might think or as implied by your cartoon. There's no all-hearing fiendish entity who just waits for someone to utter a wish and then to swoop in and yoink their soul away. Most people never meet an outsider in their entire life, and when they do those outsiders have better things to do than quarrel over a soul. Those demons and devils who can just grant any wish are aiming for kings and warlords, not children, and those who are weak enough to gain something from children souls are either kept on a tight leash or not very clever.

    Third, children souls are generally not very interesting. They didn't have time to ripen with experience (both literal XP and memories), so they lack substance and aren't worth much.

    Fourth, in some religions there are baptism ceremonies where the child is baptised in a fitting manner and from this moment onward until their age of adulthood under the protection of the corresponding diety/pantheon. It's basically a mark by that diety who clearly marks the soul of that child as protected and warns away any otherworldly entity who tries to interfere with the soul (though the body is still the parents' to protect). Most demons, devils, fey and so on steer away from such a mark because it invites far, far more trouble than a single child soul is worth.
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    Default Re: Why don't D&D devils, make deals with kids?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    In Fiendish Codex 2, if a mortal wishes to dispute their contract - they may do so - but the court is in the Nine Hells and the judge is a pit fiend.

    "Being coerced" is a valid defence. So is "I didn't receive the promised reward".
    That's for Greyhawk, which is the assumed setting for FC2. In Forgotten Realms, Kelemvor or his agents preside over such cases.

    The overall point still stands though - the fact that "I was coerced" is a valid defense, means that the circumstances of the signing itself do matter, not just the thing that was signed.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Why don't D&D devils, make deals with kids?

    It could be also related to the fact that you have to be LE to go to hell. Children are, shall we say, typically fairly chaotic, even leaving the G/E axis aside. There is a certain level of maturity required to really grasp Law as a concept. Children tend to have a sense of "fairness," sure, but it's heavily biased towards their perceptions. "It's fair if I like it" is a common misapplication of the concept. Their budding empathy helps them learn better fairness.

    But fair and orderly are not always the same thing. Especially at a child's immature comprehension level.

    So, when the devil gets the little kid to sign away his soul, the kid just...refuses to pay.

    When an adult says, "That's not fair!" he may mean it, but he still understands that life isn't fair, and that the contract he signed does actually say what the fiend is proclaiming it to. He knows he was swindled in a broad sense, but that he did agree to it.

    When a child says, "That's not fair!" he not only means it, but believes it to be overriding. That stupid 'contract' thingie is boring and complicated and he is positive that he never agreed to whatever that mean ol' devil is trying to claim. He shoves the reward back at the devil, if he even goes that far, and storms off.

    The kid lacks the sophistication to even recognize that he's breaking the deal. To him, the devil has. This inherent chaos makes the kid's soul unable to be dragged to Hell. If the devil isn't careful, the evil he's engendered might even send the kid to the lower planes anyway...but the Abyss. And if there's anything a devil hates more than a soul going to the upper planes, it's that soul going to the hated enemies in the Blood War.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Why don't D&D devils, make deals with kids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    That's for Greyhawk, which is the assumed setting for FC2. In Forgotten Realms, Kelemvor or his agents preside over such cases.
    Actually FC2 has sidebars discussing how to apply it to Faerun - and "Kelemvor/agents preside over all disputes" is not in the sidebar.
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    Default Re: Why don't D&D devils, make deals with kids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    But consent and volition do matter for contracts, even the fiendish/metaphysical ones present in D&D. It's the same reason why the devils can't simply corner a mortal and beat the gently caress out of him with subdual damage or torture until he signs his soul away. By your logic, that should be possible, because it's an issue of protection and thus morality rather than the purely objective consideration of whether their signature is on the page or not. So clearly there is an element of "fairness" built into the proceedings.
    You have a really, really poor grasp of my logic. By my logic, children may enter contracts so long as they give consent and volition. I've never said they can't, despite what you may think. If the child cannot give consent and does not have volition, the universe would not give the contract legitimacy, and the devil wouldn't get the soul. Call it a gamble, the devil doesn't know for sure, the universe does. Hell, if anything, that gives extra protection to the child, since the devil has as much certainty as we do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    You mean your throwaway assumption that child souls are worth less?
    There is nothing saying what souls are worth compared to each other, and in my world, why not, this is the case. "Why not do X?" for something that has no rules is a perfectly acceptable assertion, so long as it's self-consistent. Nothing I said has been inconsistent.

    Here's a thought, have you ever thought to just say, "i do not like this idea" instead of trying to mangle my arguments so that you can try to be right about a subjective argument? Note how I've never said "this is the way to do it," I've just said "this is a way to do it, and I prefer it." You can not prefer it. Feel free to not prefer it. Just stop trying to twist what I'm saying so you can pretend to be right on something you literally can't be right on.

    Of, conversely, quote me a relevant section from any sourcebook on how I'm wrong, and I'll cop to it. Just stop trying to say "by your logic" and then follow it with things that do not at all follow by my logic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I'm glad you're aware of this, because it's usually a god (specifically, whichever one is in charge of death and the afterlife, e.g. Kelemvor, Jergal, Wee Jas, Pharasma etc) that decides whether a soul contract is enforceable or not - not the devils themselves. This is why invalid contracts can be a thing to begin with.
    Gods aren't all-powerful, and fight and argue among each other. The universe is the ultimate arbiter, not the gods. If you wanna play with all-powerful, all-knowing gods, feel free. I don't.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2018-07-05 at 11:19 AM.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking).

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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"
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    Actually im saying all of them are trans, even if theyve made babies or not. Its fantasy, baby!

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Why don't D&D devils, make deals with kids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    You have a really, really poor grasp of my logic. By my logic, children may enter contracts so long as they give consent and volition. I've never said they can't, despite what you may think. If the child cannot give consent and does not have volition, the universe would not give the contract legitimacy, and the devil wouldn't get the soul. Call it a gamble, the devil doesn't know for sure, the universe does. Hell, if anything, that gives extra protection to the child, since the devil has as much certainty as we do.


    There is nothing saying what souls are worth compared to each other, and in my world, why not, this is the case. "Why not do X?" for something that has no rules is a perfectly acceptable assertion, so long as it's self-consistent. Nothing I said has been inconsistent.

    Here's a thought, have you ever thought to just say, "i do not like this idea" instead of trying to mangle my arguments so that you can try to be right about a subjective argument? Note how I've never said "this is the way to do it," I've just said "this is a way to do it, and I prefer it." You can not prefer it. Feel free to not prefer it. Just stop trying to twist what I'm saying so you can pretend to be right on something you literally can't be right on.

    Of, conversely, quote me a relevant section from any sourcebook on how I'm wrong, and I'll cop to it. Just stop trying to say "by your logic" and then follow it with things that do not at all follow by my logic.

    Gods aren't all-powerful, and fight and argue among each other. The universe is the ultimate arbiter, not the gods. If you wanna play with all-powerful, all-knowing gods, feel free. I don't.
    Except the canon is exactly as said in the post you quoted. It's not that they are all knowing, it is that a soul appears before the agent of whoever has dominion over death (or their agent). They then go through a process to determine where they end up, and I assume a soul contract would be taken into consideration at that time.

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    Default Re: Why don't D&D devils, make deals with kids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    Except the canon is exactly as said in the post you quoted. It's not that they are all knowing, it is that a soul appears before the agent of whoever has dominion over death (or their agent). They then go through a process to determine where they end up, and I assume a soul contract would be taken into consideration at that time.
    Aha. Then that part is definitely objectively wrong. Still doesn't really change a whole lot, since the deal can/will still be taken into consideration and the possibility still exists that the deal will be seen as valid, but I'll totally cop to being off on the mechanism.

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    Last edited by Peelee; 2018-07-05 at 12:05 PM.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking).

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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"
    Quote Originally Posted by The Extinguisher View Post
    Actually im saying all of them are trans, even if theyve made babies or not. Its fantasy, baby!

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Why don't D&D devils, make deals with kids?

    I like the idea of soul contracts in D&D being a con, to trick people into thinking they are already damned and so drive them more effectively towards evil acts. This seems a very evil way to operate. It depends, however, on most people being at least partially ignorant of how the afterlife works... which is quite plausible.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Why don't D&D devils, make deals with kids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kami2awa View Post
    I like the idea of soul contracts in D&D being a con, to trick people into thinking they are already damned and so drive them more effectively towards evil acts. This seems a very evil way to operate. It depends, however, on most people being at least partially ignorant of how the afterlife works... which is quite plausible.
    The fluff for infernal contracts did mention 2 types of pacts in use:

    Pact certain - where the mortal is provided services, and in return promises his soul to a specific devil.

    Pact insidious - where the mortal is provided services, and in return is expected to perform some actions (often sacrifices) that are evil/lawful acts. The devil will still get the credit when the mortal shows up in hell, since the pact marks his soul in a manner recognized by other devils.

    The books also mention how most evil worshippers do know more or less how hell works, but are unaware of how little they matter in the grand scheme of things: even though they've heard of the hordes of the damned used as cheap labor / cannon fodder/ currency / literal fodder, they often expect some special treatment for being mortal agents of hell.
    Last edited by Braininthejar2; 2018-07-06 at 05:50 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Why don't D&D devils, make deals with kids?

    There's no all-hearing fiendish entity who just waits for someone to utter a wish and then to swoop in and yoink their soul away.
    "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu."

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    Default Re: Why don't D&D devils, make deals with kids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Braininthejar2 View Post
    "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu."
    Ironically, a CE demon who rather than making pacts just forcibly shifts the victim's alignment towards CE, contract-free...

    Forget having to fight in Kelemvor's court for a Good soul, just magic the target towards Evil...

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Why don't D&D devils, make deals with kids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Braininthejar2 View Post
    "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu."
    Technically not all-hearing; you're calling his pager.

    Quote Originally Posted by NichG View Post
    Ironically, a CE demon who rather than making pacts just forcibly shifts the victim's alignment towards CE, contract-free...

    Forget having to fight in Kelemvor's court for a Good soul, just magic the target towards Evil...
    Not "forcibly." You do have to, after all, willingly make the wish.



    Though the "magical" part is always interesting to me. Does it compel behavior? Reduce inhibition (e.g. as if you were slightly drunk)? Magically alter your mind and your likes and dislikes so that things you used to dislike seem cool, and things that used to seem great now seem boring?

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: Why don't D&D devils, make deals with kids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Technically not all-hearing; you're calling his pager.

    Not "forcibly." You do have to, after all, willingly make the wish.

    Though the "magical" part is always interesting to me. Does it compel behavior? Reduce inhibition (e.g. as if you were slightly drunk)? Magically alter your mind and your likes and dislikes so that things you used to dislike seem cool, and things that used to seem great now seem boring?
    Well I guess I was interpreting the immediacy of the effect as 'forcibly' and as a forma of direct supernatural corruption (magic or otherwise). Someone who takes the wish is going to end up with the modified alignment immediately regardless of potential objections or arguments after the fact. Mechanism-wise, I don't think there's enough to pin it down, but I sort of like the idea that the supplicant's potential for goodness/grace/etc is actually being directly consumed as a material component of the Wish. In which case, even if they continue to behave in an LG manner, whatever cosmic mechanism appropriately handles accounting of those deeds has been permanently scarred.
    Last edited by NichG; 2018-07-06 at 12:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Why don't D&D devils, make deals with kids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    You have a really, really poor grasp of my logic. By my logic, children may enter contracts so long as they give consent and volition. I've never said they can't, despite what you may think. If the child cannot give consent and does not have volition, the universe would not give the contract legitimacy, and the devil wouldn't get the soul. Call it a gamble, the devil doesn't know for sure, the universe does. Hell, if anything, that gives extra protection to the child, since the devil has as much certainty as we do.
    My point is that physical ability to sign a contract does not equal consent, whether it is a child or a torture victim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    There is nothing saying what souls are worth compared to each other, and in my world, why not, this is the case. "Why not do X?" for something that has no rules is a perfectly acceptable assertion, so long as it's self-consistent. Nothing I said has been inconsistent.

    Here's a thought, have you ever thought to just say, "i do not like this idea" instead of trying to mangle my arguments so that you can try to be right about a subjective argument? Note how I've never said "this is the way to do it," I've just said "this is a way to do it, and I prefer it." You can not prefer it. Feel free to not prefer it. Just stop trying to twist what I'm saying so you can pretend to be right on something you literally can't be right on.

    Of, conversely, quote me a relevant section from any sourcebook on how I'm wrong, and I'll cop to it. Just stop trying to say "by your logic" and then follow it with things that do not at all follow by my logic.
    Hamish already provided the quote for me, so you can refer to his post. As for souls, you can find the relevant rules in BoVD - there are quite a large number of effects that don't care about the qualities of the particular soul that you use, for which damned children would be a ridiculously efficient engine.

    And as for me - I can quite easily do both "I don't prefer this thematically" and "I think it makes no sense within the game", thank you for asking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Gods aren't all-powerful, and fight and argue among each other. The universe is the ultimate arbiter, not the gods. If you wanna play with all-powerful, all-knowing gods, feel free. I don't.
    Calthropstu covered this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Why don't D&D devils, make deals with kids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    My point is that physical ability to sign a contract does not equal consent, whether it is a child or a torture victim.
    And if I'd ever said a word about physical ability, that would be a valid point. But please, keep beating that strawman all you want.

    ETA: Also, I'm tired of constantly having to correct your wrong assumptions or assertions about my argument. There's only two reasons I can think of that you have consistently misrepresented my position; either you don't understand it, or you're being deliberately obtuse. I assume it's the second, but regardless, I'm not going to bother to address you anymore.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2018-07-06 at 04:17 PM.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking).

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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"
    Quote Originally Posted by The Extinguisher View Post
    Actually im saying all of them are trans, even if theyve made babies or not. Its fantasy, baby!

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    Default Re: Why don't D&D devils, make deals with kids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I assume it's the second
    Ahh, not only a direct flame, but "nyah nyah, taking my ball and going home" too. Charming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I'm not going to bother to address you anymore.
    Do you promise? Can we get a devil to write it up? (I consent.)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Why don't D&D devils, make deals with kids?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    In Fiendish Codex 2, if a mortal wishes to dispute their contract - they may do so - but the court is in the Nine Hells and the judge is a pit fiend.

    "Being coerced" is a valid defence. So is "I didn't receive the promised reward".
    This is actually the information I go off of with infernal contract disputes. Except with children, I also added "incapable of understanding the contract, because they haven't reached the Age of Reason". The interesting thing is, is that devils will often times make these bad contracts that can be disputed, and the contract is still valid unless the person actually knows they can dispute the contract. So your typical soul might be able to fight their predicament when they hit the shores of Despond, but still get harvested because they don't know their rights. And the devils aren't obligated to tell you.

    I treat the contracts with children the same way. They're invalid, but only if they're objected to and disputed in court. Otherwise the devils will still abscond with your soul.

    Edit: Just some backstory for the reason for the addition: This actually came up in a game. Players were on the Infinite Staircase, ran into a Falxugon and a Gelugon having a dispute on turf. The falxugon had found a lost little girl, 'comforted' her, and made a deal to take her back home upon earning her trust, in exchange for an unnamed favor to the falxugon in the future. The gelugon wanted the little girl too, for the same reason. Giant blue praying mantis had a lot harder time earning her trust, though. Falxugon knew the contract would not hold up in court, but how's the little girl going to know? Party was onto him, though.
    Last edited by Greymane; 2018-07-06 at 07:30 PM.

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    Default Re: Why don't D&D devils, make deals with kids?

    Traditionally, children were property. You would need the father's agreement.

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    Default Re: Why don't D&D devils, make deals with kids?

    My headcanon is that as a person ages their soul develops "flavors" so to speak. In addition to being more or less useless in the short term, a child's soul would be a bit like having an undercooked meal.
    Last edited by Jackaccount; 2018-07-06 at 10:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Why don't D&D devils, make deals with kids?

    Quote Originally Posted by redwizard007 View Post
    Traditionally, children were property. You would need the father's agreement.
    I'm sure devils would not wish to defy human traditions.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking).

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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"
    Quote Originally Posted by The Extinguisher View Post
    Actually im saying all of them are trans, even if theyve made babies or not. Its fantasy, baby!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I'm sure devils would not wish to defy human traditions.
    If they didn't care about laws and traditions, they would be demons, not devils. Even if they didn't codify or create those traditions, they would still respect them, to a point.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Why don't D&D devils, make deals with kids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    If they didn't care about laws and traditions, they would be demons, not devils. Even if they didn't codify or create those traditions, they would still respect them, to a point.
    To a point, yes. We just disagree on where that point is, it would seem.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking).

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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"
    Quote Originally Posted by The Extinguisher View Post
    Actually im saying all of them are trans, even if theyve made babies or not. Its fantasy, baby!

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    Default Re: Why don't D&D devils, make deals with kids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    To a point, yes. We just disagree on where that point is, it would seem.
    Lawful beings are typically respectful of the laws and traditions of other groups unless they find them sufficiently morally offensive that they cannot bring themselves to cross that line (Devils being physical incarnations of the concept of evil, it seems unlikely they would make that particular judgment of mortal societies.) Its not impossible that they don't care, but given how much room it seems like it would open up for other devils to contest the contract and deprive their opponents of souls, I have to wonder how much it would really be worth to them to open that can of worms.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Why don't D&D devils, make deals with kids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Lawful beings are typically respectful of the laws and traditions of other groups unless they find them sufficiently morally offensive that they cannot bring themselves to cross that line (Devils being physical incarnations of the concept of evil, it seems unlikely they would make that particular judgment of mortal societies.) Its not impossible that they don't care, but given how much room it seems like it would open up for other devils to contest the contract and deprive their opponents of souls, I have to wonder how much it would really be worth to them to open that can of worms.
    True. I should rephrase - I wouldn't portray people as having a tradition of children being the property of their parents unless I wanted to portray said people as an Evil (or at the very least, non-Good) society.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking).

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    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"
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    Actually im saying all of them are trans, even if theyve made babies or not. Its fantasy, baby!

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    Default Re: Why don't D&D devils, make deals with kids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greymane View Post
    This is actually the information I go off of with infernal contract disputes. Except with children, I also added "incapable of understanding the contract, because they haven't reached the Age of Reason". The interesting thing is, is that devils will often times make these bad contracts that can be disputed, and the contract is still valid unless the person actually knows they can dispute the contract. So your typical soul might be able to fight their predicament when they hit the shores of Despond, but still get harvested because they don't know their rights. And the devils aren't obligated to tell you.
    Are you talking about them making bad contracts in your setting, or are there canonical examples from the rulebooks? Genuine question as I haven't seen the latter.

    Quote Originally Posted by redwizard007 View Post
    Traditionally, children were property. You would need the father's agreement.
    Putting aside the humor, and that this sociopolitical concept of property is unlikely to extend to metaphysical realms, this strikes me more generally as another example of where the "medieval flavor" of D&D's setting doesn't perfectly translate to the game as a whole - much like women being allowed to adventure or a large number of people outside the clergy being literate.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Why don't D&D devils, make deals with kids?

    Actually, how do we know they don't?

    If a devil has means to directly reach the mortal world, doesn't have more urgent matters to do there than bargaining for a single soul, and can take a form that won't make the kid run screaming... That's a pretty rare combination, but if that happened, I see no real reason why not.

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    Default Re: Why don't D&D devils, make deals with kids?

    Are you talking about them making bad contracts in your setting, or are there canonical examples from the rulebooks? Genuine question as I haven't seen the latter.
    There are some computer game examples, both of a devil making a bad contract that a player can dispute on behalf of the mortal, and one devil being forced to do good, because he took risk on a contract out of greed and got played.


    The thing is, Hell is Hell for the devils too. If they mess up with a contract, and draw the ire of their superior, they could get crippled with torture, and demoted to a dead-end job for the rest of their immortal existence. But at the same time, Hell is a business run by sadistic psychopats - the devils have quotas to meet, and if no good victim presents itself, one might be forced to take some risks.

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    Default Re: Why don't D&D devils, make deals with kids?

    If you look at the scope of D&D, it tends toward the mythic and the legendary. Even low level characters face monstrous beings. Devils tend to appear in significantly more powerful stories in the D&D multiverse, such as the Blood War. When you have one around, your players and their setting typically involves larger problems than corrupting youth. However, D&D has a blatant example of young beings corrupted by devil influence: Tieflings.


    Since the concerns of D&D are generally cosmic when handling devils, they rarely get into the weeds--cults can have child sacrifices, child acolytes, and child Sybles. It's just not likely to appear in a canonical text for the masses.

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    Default Re: Why don't D&D devils, make deals with kids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Braininthejar2 View Post
    There are some computer game examples, both of a devil making a bad contract that a player can dispute on behalf of the mortal, and one devil being forced to do good, because he took risk on a contract out of greed and got played.
    Do you mean D&D computer games?

    Quote Originally Posted by Braininthejar2 View Post
    The thing is, Hell is Hell for the devils too. If they mess up with a contract, and draw the ire of their superior, they could get crippled with torture, and demoted to a dead-end job for the rest of their immortal existence. But at the same time, Hell is a business run by sadistic psychopats - the devils have quotas to meet, and if no good victim presents itself, one might be forced to take some risks.
    Exactly - they're not going to waste their time on something they know will be invalid and set back their career, which is the point I've been making all along.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Why don't D&D devils, make deals with kids?

    Do you mean D&D computer games?
    Neverwinter Nights 2 expansion, and Planescape: Torment, respectively.

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