Nale reason for hating Malack

[Jasdoif]

Inside joke.

Not quite sure what you're getting at.

It was not particularly funny.

[Flying Turtle]

Xykon has done horrible things, some out of boredom. He is really evil. But there is something in Tarquin that can make an argument... Because Tarquin is a lot more rational, more logical. I fear more logical evil then random evil.
For what we know, T may have killed lots of people more then X, counting the whole Vector Legion and their plan for the Western Continent. He have a cruel dictatorship that use mass murderer, war, slavery and death fighting as a way to ensure power. Xykon didn't have anything like that before taking Azure City, and even then we can argue if Goblinoids have improved their lifestyle.
We should not understimate Tarquin's evilness just because he's cool and funny.



You can be the most evil person in the world, and still love someone. I don't thing that Laurin is less evil just because he loves her daughter and his teamates. The Giant himself said this argument, more then once, and I totally agree.

I've never been fond of the idea that good/evil is about how much damage you do. By that logic, a surgeon who tries there best but still screws up a surgery and kills a patient is just as evil as a murder. Intentions matter. And the intentions of the Vector Legion's logic is to help them rationalize their actions and egos. Both Tarquin and Malack liked to claim they were reasonable people but at the end of the day they were only reasonable as long as it suited their needs.

Xykon is undeniably evil but he's far more intellectually honest than the VL.

That said there's probably a broader point here that everything I just said is quibbling and both sides relish in evil for evil's sake, which puts them on the same level of evil. Is Xykon more intellectually honest than the VG? Yes. But I'm sure any of us could come up with other factors to argue that the Xykon is more evil. And then we could find more ways to tip the scales back around to the VL. At the end of the day, they're all within the margin of error of one another.

[brian 333]

A friend once considered a third axis to the alignment grid: the idea being a measure of zeal for the alignment. If the Chaos/Law axis and the Evil/Good axis were numbered from 0-100, with the Neutral zones lying between 33 and 66, a Casual/Zealot scale could be an indicator of how fervently the character adhered to an alignment or prozlytized for it.

Of course, this opened up more alignment debates so I never adopted the idea.

I think it's a matter of this hypothetical third scale being the difference. Both Tarquin and Xykon are very Evil, (0 on the hypothetical Evil/Good axis.) However, Xykon doesn't care about spreading the Evil faith, he's in it for himself, and so is on the Casual end of the Zeal axis. Meanwhile, Tarquin very much wants to grow Brand Evil, inducting ever greater numbers of creatures into an evil civil organization and actively quashing those who resist, or who can be construed to not wholeheartedly support his agenda.

It's not that one is more evil, it's that one is Casual Evil while the other is Zealous Evil.

[AstralFire]

I dunno if I'd consider Xykon more 'casual' in his evil. He's an absolute monster who does horrible things to people, a pure sadist, he does evil-for-evil's sake. All that's different is that Xykon works on directly empowering himself, while Tarquin created a system.

[Fyraltari]

Inside joke.

Just checking.

Xykon doesn't care about spreading the Evil faith, he's in it for himself, and so is on the Casual end of the Zeal axis. Meanwhile, Tarquin very much wants to grow Brand Evil, inducting ever greater numbers of creatures into an evil civil organization and actively quashing those who resist, or who can be construed to not wholeheartedly support his agenda.

Hmm, I don't think Tarquin or Xykon care wether anybody else is Evil, there is no evil "faith" and even the fiends find the idea of "big happy evil family" ridiculous. What you describe witht the organization sounds more like a Lawful versus Chaotic thing to me.

[brian 333]

Juùst checking.


Hmm, I don't think Tarquin or Xykon care wether anybody else is Evil, there is no evil "faith" and even the fiends find the idea of "big happy evil family" ridiculous. What you describe witht the organization sounds more like a Lawful versus Chaotic thing to me.

Well, yes, you are right.

But my comment was directed at the discussion of "who's more eviler?" Neither and both is the correct answer. Both are at the extreme end of the alignment axis, so both are as evil as it is possible to be. Xykon, however, has acted on a much more personal scale, while Tarquin has been working on industrial scale evil.

This doesn't make him more evil: it makes him a much more active agent of evil by impacting the daily lives of millions. Xykon may, in the end, accidentally affect more people than Tarquin, (mostly because they happen to be in the area of effect of his scheme,) but that is not his goal. It is Tarquin's goal.

[factotum]

I would say Xykon is more Evil than Tarquin, purely because Xykon will do evil for evil's sake, while Tarquin generally seems to have a reason for his evil acts. Tarquin burned the escaped slaves to send a message to the others that they shouldn't try the same thing. Xykon would do that for the lulz.

[Jannoire]

Didn't he burn the slaves for the funky sign reading "Elan"?

[factotum]

Didn't he burn the slaves for the funky sign reading "Elan"?

That too, so it was a very efficient multi-purpose bit of evil...

[Resileaf]

That too, so it was a very efficient multi-purpose bit of evil...

Tarquin's system is nothing if not completely efficient in what it does. He's been doing it for decades after all.

[Peelee]

Tarquin's system is nothing if not completely efficient in what it does. He's been doing it for decades after all.

That whole desert debacle seemed pretty darn inefficient, if you ask me.

[Resileaf]

That whole desert debacle seemed pretty darn inefficient, if you ask me.

It's just as he said. "Sure, the last fifteen minutes sucked, but he got to live like a king for three decades."

[Peelee]

It's just as he said. "Sure, the last fifteen minutes sucked, but he got to live like a king for three decades."

So not completely efficient, then, just efficient until it isn't.

[Resileaf]

So not completely efficient, then, just efficient until it isn't.

That's probably literally every system ever. The Roman Republic/Empire was efficient until it wasn't as well.

[Kish]

I think the conclusion of Blood Runs in the Family makes it clear what complete crap Tarquin's glib "I win either way" argument was.

[Resileaf]

I think the conclusion of Blood Runs in the Family makes it clear what complete crap Tarquin's glib "I win either way" argument was.

Well he found victory in different kinds of endings. He just didn't take into account that there was a third option in which he lost.

[EmperorSarda]

That whole desert debacle seemed pretty darn inefficient, if you ask me.

Because it was Elan. Tarquin is trying to set it up so Elan is the cause of his downfall. If it was anyone else, he would not react so "kindly". If it was anyone else then there would be no desert scene cause Tarquin would have killed them on the roof when he and Elan first fought.

If it was anyone else Tarquin would not have held back or showboated when fighting at the pyramid.

[woweedd]

I think the conclusion of Blood Runs in the Family makes it clear what complete crap Tarquin's glib "I win either way" argument was.

Oh, no, Tarquin won in every option he took the time to consider. Unfortunately for him, he's no Xanatos: He has an ego large enough to have its own gravitational field, and, while he may be a smart guy, he's not nearly as smart as he thinks he is. Those two factors led him to overlook some possible outcomes.

[dps]

Now, if I had to make a highly questionable extrapolation....I'd note that her reaction to Tarquin murdering his offspring goes beyond "take it in stride", all the way to "dispose of the body in front of the twin brother". Which...does not inspire much confidence in her appraisal of familial devotion.

From her POV, Tarquin hadn't just murdered his own child; he'd just executed the murderer of one of her best friends, and she was trying to make sure that the murderer couldn't be raised.

[Kish]

Well he found victory in different kinds of endings. He just didn't take into account that there was a third option in which he lost.

Oh, no, Tarquin won in every option he took the time to consider. Unfortunately for him, he's no Xanatos: He has an ego large enough to have its own gravitational field, and, while he may be a smart guy, he's not nearly as smart as he thinks he is. Those two factors led him to overlook some possible outcomes.

Tarquin's scheme only worked to alarm Elan because Elan's an idiot--something Tarquin didn't realize and thus didn't take into account.

What do you think his response would have been if Elan had actually been smart, and had responded to his, "If I win, I get to be a king, if I lose, I get to be a legend," with:
Really? Because I'm going to be the one telling the story, Dad--the story of the Defeat of the Empress of Blood, that is. I may need to change the name and most of the ballad depending on who you're pretending to serve at that point, but I can tell you the single line in the third verse that will mention her comic jester Tarquin right now...

[Resileaf]

Tarquin's scheme only worked to alarm Elan because Elan's an idiot--something Tarquin didn't realize and thus didn't take into account.

What do you think his response would have been if Elan had actually been smart, and had responded to his, "If I win, I get to be a king, if I lose, I get to be a legend," with:
Really? Because I'm going to be the one telling the story, Dad--the story of the Defeat of the Empress of Blood, that is. I may need to change the name and most of the ballad depending on who you're pretending to serve at that point, but I can tell you the single line in the third verse that will mention her comic jester Tarquin right now...

You mean the discussion that happened after Tarquin finished whooping Elan's ass in the rooftop battle?
Yes, I'm sure Elan would have gone out of that encounter unscathed if he said something like that.

Also Elan's not the only bard in the world.

[woweedd]

You mean the discussion that happened after Tarquin finished whooping Elan's ass in the rooftop battle?
Yes, I'm sure Elan would have gone out of that encounter unscathed if he said something like that.

Also Elan's not the only bard in the world.

Um, firstly, Tarquin won't actually kill him, partly because Elan is vital to his scheme. Whether he kills Elan or not, the scheme is over. Much like Tarquin's plan, the idea is to create a scenario where no matter what your opponent does, you win, long-term. If Tarquin kills Elan, his plan will go unfulfilled. If he doesn't, Elan enacts his plan, and Tarquin goes down as a joke. There's no scenario where Tarquin gets what he wants, and, as the desert incident shows, Tarquin doesn't compromise. He's a control freak. Put him in a situation where he's not in control, and his mask of cool-headed intellect crumbles. Also, no Elan's not the only Bard in the world, but he's the Bard who defeated the Empire of Blood. If anyone's gonna tell the story, it's him. Plus, Tarquin's plan relies on being remembered as a cool stylish fan favorite villian, not, as Elan will probably recall him, a petulant egotist who wasn't nearly as clever as he thought he was. I mean, heck, look at many people on this forum's reactions to Tarquin's breakdown. Suddenly, he doesn't seem nearly as cool, and that's the point. Heck, frankly, i'm gonna beat that Traquin gets killed off-panel, probably by Enor and Genji for irony purposes, and never show up again, a mere side-villain, a Jabba The Hutt who wished he was Darth Vader. A fitting fate for someone thirsting for recognition, to be merely a side-quest.

[Resileaf]

Um, firstly, Tarquin won't actually kill him, partly because Elan is vital to his scheme. Whether he kills Elan or not, the scheme is over. Much like Tarquin's plan, the idea is to create a scenario where no matter what your opponent does, you win, long-term. If Tarquin kills Elan, his plan will go unfulfilled. If he doesn't, Elan enacts his plan, and Tarquin goes down as a joke. There's no scenario where Tarquin gets what he wants, and, as the desert incident shows, Tarquin doesn't compromise. He's a control freak. Put him in a situation where he's not in control, and his mask of cool-headed intellect crumbles. Also, no Elan's not the only Bard in the world, but he's the Bard who defeated the Empire of Blood. If anyone's gonna tell the story, it's him. Plus, Tarquin's plan relies on being remembered as a cool stylish fan favorite villian, not, as Elan will probably recall him, a petulant egotist who wasn't nearly as clever as he thought he was. I mean, heck, look at many people on this forum's reactions to Tarquin's breakdown. Suddenly, he doesn't seem nearly as cool, and that's the point. Heck, frankly, i'm gonna beat that Traquin gets killed off-panel, probably by Enor and Genji for irony purposes, and never show up again, a mere side-villain, a Jabba The Hutt who wished he was Darth Vader. A fitting fate for someone thirsting for recognition, to be merely a side-quest.

And? That was exactly my point. Do you really think that if Elan had taunted his father by telling him that he would tell the story to make Tarquin a buffoon in it would have gone down with him well? You just said that when he breaks down, he gets violent. He thought about making his fall a cool story in which Elan would star because Elan arrived. But he was perfectly okay with being killed by any other run-of-the-mill hero (or dying of old age, if that became the case) before that.

[woweedd]

And? That was exactly my point. Do you really think that if Elan had taunted his father by telling him that he would tell the story to make Tarquin a buffoon in it would have gone down with him well? You just said that when he breaks down, he gets violent. He thought about making his fall a cool story in which Elan would star because Elan arrived. But he was perfectly okay with being killed by any other run-of-the-mill hero (or dying of old age, if that became the case) before that.

Once again, Tarquin's plan is now ****ed either way, and once Tarquin has a plan, adjusting it even a tiny bit is gonna, at best, piss him off, at worst, drive him utterly mad. Also, more to the point,the actual example is irrelevant. The point Kish is making is that, quite frankly, Tarquin's plan was BS from the beginning, falls apart if you think about it for more then a few minutes and could be circumnavigated in dozens of ways, and he was just lucky that Elan's both dumb enough, and emotionally-reeling from the revelation his dad's evil, that he didn't think about the plan itself all that deeply.

[Peelee]

That's probably literally every system ever. The Roman Republic/Empire was efficient until it wasn't as well.

Except you claimed that it wouldnt be efficient in the last 15 minutes, and we're very far from the last 15 minutes. It's almost as if Tarquin sold a slanted view of his efficiency and you bought into it.

[Resileaf]

Except you claimed that it wouldnt be efficient in the last 15 minutes, and we're very far from the last 15 minutes. It's almost as if Tarquin sold a slanted view of his efficiency and you bought into it.

Or maybe I was making a joke using a gag from a previous strip and it didn't come off as funny as I thought it was.

[Peelee]

Or maybe I was making a joke using a gag from a previous strip and it didn't come off as funny as I thought it was.

Maybe. I am not a smart man, after all.

Anyway, point is the first time we actually see firsthand a Tarquin military excursion, we see it riddled with inefficiency solely because he wants it done a very specific way. That is what Tarquin cares about and gets done.

[Resileaf]

Maybe. I am not a smart man, after all.

Anyway, point is the first time we actually see firsthand a Tarquin military excursion, we see it riddled with inefficiency solely because he wants it done a very specific way. That is what Tarquin cares about and gets done.

That is true, but part of it is indeed because he wants it done in a very specific way to make the story move how he wants. According to other people, Tarquin and the rest of the Legion have been very successful in their previous actions, though, what with their juggling multiple empires to control all of them from the shadows. They were at least pretty efficient with those matters.
Admitedly that was the entire Legion working together, but Tarquin was the first one to get that idea. I wager that Tarquin is a lot like George Lucas. Great ideas, but if he doesn't have someone reigning him in, he starts overdoing it trying to be perfect and ends up ruining things.

[Fyraltari]

That's probably literally every system ever. The Roman Republic/Empire was efficient until it wasn't as well.

Maybe. I am not a smart man, after all.

Anyway, point is the first time we actually see firsthand a Tarquin military excursion, we see it riddled with inefficiency solely because he wants it done a very specific way. That is what Tarquin cares about and gets done.

Which casts Malack's line about attrition in an interesting light.
Does he mean that he learned by watching Tarquin use attrition against his ennemies, or by watching the effect of attrition on the VL own troops when Tarquin just kept Zerg Rushing?

You make the call!

[Peelee]

That is true, but part of it is indeed because he wants it done in a very specific way to make the story move how he wants. According to other people, Tarquin and the rest of the Legion have been very successful in their previous actions, though, what with their juggling multiple empires to control all of them from the shadows. They were at least pretty efficient with those matters.
Admitedly that was the entire Legion working together, but Tarquin was the first one to get that idea. I wager that Tarquin is a lot like George Lucas. Great ideas, but if he doesn't have someone reigning him in, he starts overdoing it trying to be perfect and ends up ruining things.

We don't know they were pretty efficient with those matters though, we only know they were successful. The two are by no means inseparable.