Hearthstone 22: Evening the Odds

[ChaosOS]

I pulled Mecha'thun in my 6 free packs so I'm preeeety happy. Starting to develop a nice war chest for next xpac drop.

[Spore]

I got a golden Subject Nine. If nothing else, it is a free legendary.

[Joran]

I got a golden Subject Nine. If nothing else, it is a free legendary.

Subject Nine is played in Secret Hunter. I've never been overly impressed by Secret Hunter, but I've seen pros play it in tournaments.

[Resileaf]

Subject Nine is played in Secret Hunter. I've never been overly impressed by Secret Hunter, but I've seen pros play it in tournaments.

It seems to me like it's best used against aggro decks, as hunter secrets seem best suited to counter and destroy weaker minions (in contrast, mage secrets are better at countering and destroying big cards while paladin secrets generally protect you and your board).

[Psyren]

You can actually run Subject 9 in Spellhunter, though you run the risk of it being below Rokh'delar and both of your To My Sides. But an extra card that says "refill your hand/thin out your deck" isn't terrible, especially one that gives you board presence and is a beast.

It seems to me like it's best used against aggro decks, as hunter secrets seem best suited to counter and destroy weaker minions (in contrast, mage secrets are better at countering and destroying big cards while paladin secrets generally protect you and your board).

Hunter secrets can do both I'd say. For small minions you use Explosive Trap, Wandering Monster and Snipe (which admittedly could use a buff). For big ones, you use Freezing Trap and Misdirection.

[Resileaf]

Hunter secrets can do both I'd say. For small minions you use Explosive Trap, Wandering Monster and Snipe (which admittedly could use a buff). For big ones, you use Freezing Trap and Misdirection.

Well I would say that generally, what I said is pretty true. Besides, misdirection and freezing trap are useful against low-level minions too. A 3/2 hitting a misdirection and destroying the 3/2 minion next to it is just as useful as a 10/10 destroying a 3/2. And sure, freezing a high-level minion is better in the long run, but if you're trying to build board control at the start of a game, forcing an aggro deck to waste time playing low level cards a second time can be pretty helpful too.
Mage also has tools against low-level minions. Explosive trap is far more effective for low-health minions than it is for high-health ones, for instance.

[Psyren]

Well I would say that generally, what I said is pretty true. Besides, misdirection and freezing trap are useful against low-level minions too. A 3/2 hitting a misdirection and destroying the 3/2 minion next to it is just as useful as a 10/10 destroying a 3/2.

I agree with you on Mage Secrets (as a category) being better against big minions, but my point is that Hunter Secrets (as a category) can more easily deal with both. (The reason, I imagine, is that Mages don't really need secrets to deal with small minions anyway.)

Personally I'd rather the 10/10 hit them in the face - which MD can do, even if they have taunts up I've won games that way before. It's even funnier vs. OTK decks like Big Priest, when they smash themselves in the face with their own win condition, or they're afraid to go off because you have a secret on the field which lets you race them.

Even against normal control decks though - they tend to have fewer (and larger)
minions on the board, resulting in more chance for MD to hit them in the face.

And sure, freezing a high-level minion is better in the long run, but if you're trying to build board control at the start of a game, forcing an aggro deck to waste time playing low level cards a second time can be pretty helpful too.

Agreed, hence the "both"

[The_Jackal]

Anyone want 80g? I have a challenge a friend, send me a friend request via Blizzard, Ozryk#11320 (Got it, thanks!)

[Rodin]

Having just met a Pogohopper deck, and interesting idea occurred to me for next expansion.

Turn 3: Coin, Spirit of the Shark.

Turn 4: Play Pogo-hopper, Shadowstep, Pogo-hopper, Pogo-hopper.

That makes a 5/5 and a 9/9 on turn 4.

Unreliable to be sure, but amusing nonetheless. Can't quite see Pogohopper making it even with the extra support unless we get more cards that support the combo, but it does help with the meme-ing.

[Seerow]

Having just met a Pogohopper deck, and interesting idea occurred to me for next expansion.

Turn 3: Coin, Spirit of the Shark.

Turn 4: Play Pogo-hopper, Shadowstep, Pogo-hopper, Pogo-hopper.

That makes a 5/5 and a 9/9 on turn 4.

Unreliable to be sure, but amusing nonetheless. Can't quite see Pogohopper making it even with the extra support unless we get more cards that support the combo, but it does help with the meme-ing.

First pogo that gets stepped is 5/5. You'd actually have a 9/9 and 13/13 on the board if you pulled off a shadow step pogo that turn.

That being said I would never commit both pogos that early, as it leaves you with no win con if your opponent can deal with it. Prefer waiting until I have lab recruiter to play my second pogo.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

First pogo is a 1/1 because you haven't played other pogos. Second pogo gets the double 2/2 buff, third pogo gets the double 4/4 buff.

[Tvtyrant]

It took a few tries but I finally pulled off the classiest lich kill :)

[Psyren]

It took a few tries but I finally pulled off the classiest lich kill :)

Did that pierce the immunity? I was always wondering about that.

[Resileaf]

Did that pierce the immunity? I was always wondering about that.

Yeah, it does, because immunity only protects you against damage, while Mecha'thun is literally "Kill your opponent". No damage happens in that situation.

[Tvtyrant]

Did that pierce the immunity? I was always wondering about that.

Yes it does, I was a bit worried about that myself. I don't think it could be done with any other class, I filled Druid with a ton of 1 drop creatures that got immediately vaporized out of the deck and left me with just Mechathun, some blockers and ramp.

[Resileaf]

Yes it does, I was a bit worried about that myself. I don't think it could be done with any other class, I filled Druid with a ton of 1 drop creatures that got immediately vaporized out of the deck and left me with just Mechathun, some blockers and ramp.

DK paladin also gets a "Kill your opponent" mechanic. When all four horsemen are on the field, the enemy hero is destroyed instantly.

[Tvtyrant]

DK paladin also gets a "Kill your opponent" mechanic. When all four horsemen are on the field, the enemy hero is destroyed instantly.

I tried that one and had difficulty keeping any of them on the board. Although the Lich King doesn't hamper the priest like the other classes so maybe?

[Resileaf]

I tried that one and had difficulty keeping any of them on the board. Although the Lich King doesn't hamper the priest like the other classes so maybe?

The intention is not to keep them on the board more than one turn, but to move the horsemen in your hand (with brewmasters, for example) so you can play multiple a turn, and using minions that give you multiple uses of your hero power (there is a legendary in particular that allows you to use your hero power again whenever you cast a spell).
An important thing to remember when you play paladin is that the Lich King summons every minion that die on your own side of the board, which makes playing paladin at all an exercise in frustration because no matter what you do, getting board control is pretty much impossible. Therefore, a combo that doesn't rely on gaining board control is more effective.
(Alternatively, playing minions that can be detrimental to him when on his side of the board is also pretty useful)

[Geno9999]

So the Tavern Brawl for this week is "A Temporus Shift": Standard rules, and each player gets an extra turn.
Me, am smart, WENT FACE!

Spoiler: Odd Hunter

Show

### Brawl Deck
# Class: Hunter
# Format: Standard
# Year of the Raven
#
# 2x (1) Acherus Veteran
# 2x (1) Arcane Shot
# 2x (1) Bestial Wrath
# 2x (1) Candleshot
# 2x (1) Dire Mole
# 2x (1) Hunter's Mark
# 2x (1) Stonetusk Boar
# 2x (1) Young Dragonhawk
# 2x (3) Animal Companion
# 2x (3) Bearshark
# 2x (3) Blackwald Pixie
# 2x (3) Eaglehorn Bow
# 2x (3) Kill Command
# 2x (3) Unleash the Hounds
# 1x (5) Tundra Rhino
# 1x (9) Baku the Mooneater
#
AAECAR8CuwWe+AIOjQGoArUDgQWIBe0GhwfbCf4M180Clc4C4e MCi+UC5e8CAA==
#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and create a new deck in Hearthstone

Even though I have went 3-0 with this deck, I think it can refined further, the first change with replacing Tundra Rhino. My games were pretty much over by my third or fourth round, so Tundra Rhino never saw play. Perhaps Vicious Fledgling would be more potent, since, unless your opponent played a taunt on their 1-2 mana turns, basically has a free shot at face if it's played on curve.

Always mulligan for 1-drops, Bearshark or Animal Companion secondary. In general, play your minions on your first turn of the round, and your hero power on your second turn, and don't plan on having anything left alive for your turn. Blackwald Pixie is there as extra direct damage to close out the game starting on your 7-8 mana turns, so unless you need the tempo, save them for then.

[The Glyphstone]

Drop a Rhino for Leeroy, I'd say. If you do reach turn 5, 12 to the face can win it on the spot.

[Zevox]

So, other new cards have apparently been trickling out without me noticing. What we've seen that I haven't commented on:

Spoiler

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Time Out - Interesting, but iffy. Comparing it to Ice Block is immediately obvious, but it seems clearly worse than Ice Block. Same mana cost, but you can't set it up in advance, you need to know when you'll need it to save you, plus it will never cost your opponent anything activating it like Ice Block could if they were a deck trying to win via burn. It does have the nice upside for Paladin of going great with weapons though, since it's active on your turn too. And it compares pretty favorably to the other Ice Block-like card we have, Evasion, I'd say. If a Paladin Control or Combo deck arises, I could see this seeing play, but I don't think it'll be good enough to push one of those into existence on its own.

Ticket Scalper - Big effect, but that 3 health probably makes it just too easy to remove. I don't know, maybe if Pirate Rogue actually comes together as a real thing, this will be in it to help them refuel, but I kind of doubt that.

Heavy Metal - If this cost 5 and could therefore be run in Odd Warrior, I might be rather enthusiastic about it. At 6 though it can't be used with Tank Up, and other Warrior armor gain at the moment isn't great enough to enable Geosculpter Yip to see play, which is basically this but better, so I have to say I don't think we'll be seeing it. Maybe in the future if Warrior gets better armor gain cards that aren't Baku.

Belligerent Gnome - And here's our anti-aggro card I see... though it's not nearly as good as the past few we've seen I think. On curve it's only going to get its effect if you went second and your opponent dropped both a 1 and 2 drop (so, no Odd Rogue daggering up), or maybe fringe cases like a Hunter who dropped Alley Cat on 1 or a Murloc deck dropping Tidehunter on 2, or an Odd Paladin who goes second and coins out his hero power. And if it doesn't get its effect, it's a 1/4 taunt for 2, which isn't great even against aggro. Sad to say I don't think it's good enough to see real play because of that, being able to drop a card like this on-curve against aggro is just too important.

Spirit of the Dead - Wow, that is one slow, long-term value card. Which makes me immediately skeptical of it, especially given its activation condition, and particularly with how it does not gel with modern Control Priest. That deck these days is not heavily minion-based - it runs a lot of removal and aims to win with Alexstraza followed by Anduin + Mind Blast burn - so it probably doesn't want something like this. Maybe after Anduin and Shadow Visions rotate out a more minion-based Control Priest will arise and this might find a niche in there, maybe, but at least now, I think it's just not something that Priest wants.

Bwonsamdi, the Dead - Obviously works with the Spirit above, but honestly, might be good without it. After all, it's a 7/7 for 7 that draws you your Northshire Clerics, and any other 1-drops you might be running (Crystalline Oracles, maybe?), which is pretty good value. Arguably better than pre-nerf Ancient of Lore, or Countess Ashmore - though as the Countess showed us, it might be that a body plus draw alone isn't enough on 7 these days. Could be that an additional effect, like the Curator's taunt, is needed. And besides, as with the Spirit, it doesn't necessarily fit with what modern Control Priest really wants to be doing. So, some potential here even without the Spirit, but I'm not optimistic about seeing it in action in this particular set.

[Seerow]

Spoiler

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Spirit of the Dead - Wow, that is one slow, long-term value card. Which makes me immediately skeptical of it, especially given its activation condition, and particularly with how it does not gel with modern Control Priest. That deck these days is not heavily minion-based - it runs a lot of removal and aims to win with Alexstraza followed by Anduin + Mind Blast burn - so it probably doesn't want something like this. Maybe after Anduin and Shadow Visions rotate out a more minion-based Control Priest will arise and this might find a niche in there, maybe, but at least now, I think it's just not something that Priest wants.

Just throwing out there spirit of the dead can be played alongside cloning gallery. It may still be slow, but that's a ton of value to end to your deck at once.

[Zevox]

Spoiler

Show

Just throwing out there spirit of the dead can be played alongside cloning gallery. It may still be slow, but that's a ton of value to end to your deck at once.

Yeah, way too slow. Besides, isn't the point of Cloning Gallery decks to fuel resurrection effects? They wouldn't want this Spirit in their resurrect pool.

[Seerow]

Yeah, way too slow. Besides, isn't the point of Cloning Gallery decks to fuel resurrection effects? They wouldn't want this Spirit in their resurrect pool.

Not saying it would fit into the current combo variant of Cloning Gallery. I'm seeing it as a very different sort of take on big priest. Maybe not good but probably worth experimenting with.

Also worth noting, the destroy 3 mana crystals add +2/+2 to all minions in your deck has a lot more value when you can toss more stuff into your deck that costs less mana. The trick is getting these tools to come together without just getting slaughtered by aggro. But I am keeping my eye on it.

Edit: Similarly Even Pirate Rogue is on my radar as a potentially big hitter. 1 mana dagger into Sharkfin Fan is actually a really strong tempo opener. We've seen one really good pirate, a couple ok pirates, if we get at least one or two more really strong tempo even costed pirates, it'll be really scary.

[Rodin]

I think the Cloning Gallery/SotD deck would be a fair bit different from the current incarnation. Cloning Gallery to get out your Malygos/Velen, and then a bunch of card draw to quickly draw the 1 mana versions and nuke your opponent for a million. Especially if you can add an Eternal Servitude in there for an extra Maly or Velen.

Probably too clunky, but then again I said that about OG Cloning Gallery. I think it's probably not a deck I'm that interested in anyway.

[Zevox]

Not saying it would fit into the current combo variant of Cloning Gallery. I'm seeing it as a very different sort of take on big priest. Maybe not good but probably worth experimenting with.

Also worth noting, the destroy 3 mana crystals add +2/+2 to all minions in your deck has a lot more value when you can toss more stuff into your deck that costs less mana. The trick is getting these tools to come together without just getting slaughtered by aggro. But I am keeping my eye on it.

Surrender to Madness? Yeah, I think that's pretty safe to just write off. You're looking at way too elaborate of a setup for the payoff you're trying to get. This is basically trying to make a combo deck that just builds bigger cheap minions rather than, you know, killing your opponent the way other combo decks do. And it still requires somehow putting minions out there, having them stick, and then dropping the Spirit on a turn when they can trade just to get off the ground, which is always iffy - just ask Cult Master, or Necrotic Geist.

[tonberrian]

Spirit does have Stealth, giving you an extra turn of trading, and I guess it's an open question if AoE killing the rest of the dudes triggers spirit for the other guys.

[Rynjin]

It helps your big cards stick, or at least makes your opponent think twice about removal. Ex, dropping Lich King and Spirit on turn 9 forces their hand a bit: remove threat now for cheap threat later, let it stick a round, or use an AoE plus another hard removal. Worst case scenario they use two cards instead of 1, and AoE removal is relatively rare.

[Psyren]

Reposting the spoiler link so I don't have to go digging for it again.

I have no idea what SotD and Bwonsamdi are for. I know they're trying to make priest aggro viable with Surrender to Madness, so it seems they'd go there, but that's way too slow for aggro - especially with Priest being as weak on card draw as it is, weaker if you go shadow or DK. And the only viable combo deck right now is Mecha'thun, which doesn't want you shuffling more stuff into your deck.

Belligerent Gnome is really good, and an overt admission that Silverback Patriarch is garbage.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I wonder if Bwonsamdi interacts correctly with Academic Espionage. If so, that'll be hilarious when you draw him from Espionage.