Hearthstone 22: Evening the Odds

[Rynjin]

And it's not like they're completely uninteractive.
The interaction is "kill them before they can combo".

Basically meaning control and even sort of mid range decks are dead, leaving only tempo/aggro and late game combo decks as competitively viable.

This is not a good direction for a game to go. An expansion should CREATE viable options, not delete them.

If every control deck loses to Sudderwock/Super Malygos and both lose to Zoolock/whatever other aggro or tempo deck might spring up, you have a very binary meta. It will get stale very quickly, and alienate players that prefer control.

I don't really like aggro or combo decks very much, so if that's the way the game is going, I may be getting off the bus here.

[Anarion]

And overall... It's not the worst, honestly.
Having a flashy combo as finisher is probably more fun than grinding through each other's resources in 30 minute long games. These "I win" buttons ensure that even control matchups won't take too long.

They can start printing Antique Healbots and Duplicates again without fear that fatigue decks will return, because exodia decks crush them.

And it's not like they're completely uninteractive.
The interaction is "kill them before they can combo".

Basically meaning control and even sort of mid range decks are dead, leaving only tempo/aggro and late game combo decks as competitively viable.

This is not a good direction for a game to go. An expansion should CREATE viable options, not delete them.

If every control deck loses to Sudderwock/Super Malygos and both lose to Zoolock/whatever other aggro or tempo deck might spring up, you have a very binary meta. It will get stale very quickly, and alienate players that prefer control.

I don't really like aggro or combo decks very much, so if that's the way the game is going, I may be getting off the bus here.

You're misreading the problem, Rynjin. If the combo is very slow and takes a long time to put together (because it costs a lot or requires setup or takes up lots of deck slots) then there's room for lots of decks that can win. The bigger problem that Hearthstone has is that some specific matchups have always been extremely polar. If you're playing a deck designed to do very well against aggro and the matchup randomly throws you against an even better control deck with a combo, you might have less than a 10% chance to win. And that sucks on the ladder. This is why tournaments are NOT played this way and instead people bring multiple classes and decklists, have opportunities to ban things, and have to win several times against different things to actually win the tournament.

Also, if I may be so bold, I think Hearthstone should not be discussed using Magic: The Gathering archetypes. The presence of a consistently growing mana curve that caps at 10 completely changes that dynamic. "Aggro" decks are not required to play only cheap cards (and many consistently run expensive finishers, such as Odd Paladin running several 7 drops at the moment). "Control" decks do not need to give up a bunch of deck slots just to be able to play their expensive cards.

What you have instead are, imo, four broad categories for how to win a hearthstone match: tempo, burst tempo, big stuff, and combo.
Tempo: Get ahead and stay ahead on board from the start, aiming to either win quickly or consistently stay ahead of the opponent's play until they die. E.g., Odd Paladin, Even Paladin before it was nerfed, normal Zoo Warlock, Secret Mage.

Burst Tempo: Build on synergy and delayed effects to present an unanswerable board long enough to win. These are the decks that play for a few critical turns, like the current version of miracle Rogue with spiders or the current healing version of Zoo Warlock (which is not a regular tempo deck, it can sit and do nothing, then play 4-5 cards at once and win in two turns). Cube Lock also goes here, as does Token druid. They're not guaranteed to win with their "combos," they're just looking to put so much down at once that most other decks can't handle it.

Big stuff: Any of the myriad late game setups that eventually overwhelm you. Taunt druid, Big spell mage, that hunter deck that tutors out King Krush. You're playing to stall long enough to get comfortably to 8+ mana, play powerful cards that are difficult to answer, and win.

Combo: Actual unanswerable combos, or nearly so. Shudderwock, infinite fireball mage, Togwoggle Fatigue Druid.

I think it's worth thinking about this way because Hearthstone isn't as simple as aggro losing to control, or what have you. "Aggro" isn't one thing. The consistent tempo decks tend to lose to the slower controlling decks (both combo and big cards) if the removal is too much for them, but burst tempo usually beats the slower decks, whereas regular tempo tends to beat burst tempo (because who cares if you suddenly fill your board with cards if the other person already has a board filled with cards). Combo often beats Big stuff, but Big decks often outperform Combo against the tempo decks because they tend to be a little faster and their cards often serve dual-purposes (like, the lich king kills people, but also protects the person who played it).

[Psyren]

Oh the drama

I kind of want to do a Totem deck built around Stormbringer. (and Windshear of course.)

[Rynjin]

I think the term aggro still has value, it's just a different meaning. Aggro decks in Hearthstone are very aggressive, early-mid game focused, and highly vulnerable to control tactics (Odd Paladin cries deep tears against Warlock of pretty much any variety, since even one-offs of Defile, Hellfire, and Despicable Dreadlord can nuke their entire buffed board). They still PRIMARILY play cheap minions, supplemented by more expensive buff spells or enough control and answers to push through stalling tactics like Taunts.

"Big stuff" decks are just another, more on the nose but less accurate word for control, IMO. Your goal is to dominate (control) the board with big minions that are hard to remove by pure damage, which shuts down aggro decks (which rely primarily on minion damage) but loses to combo decks (which generally rely on direct face damage, ignoring the board entirely once set-up is achieved).

Hearthstone in general does have a lot of "rock paper scissors" in its matchup ATM, where Control beats Aggro, combo beats control, and aggro beats combo, with wildcard decks slotting in to shake up the meta in some spaces.

The problem with promoting more viable and powerful combo decks is that it starts to push out control or "big stuff" decks. If the big, new, popular decks are all different varieties of combo, control decks will fall out of the meta, since they fare less favorably against them even if they do beat the "combo deck killer" decks, which are aggro.

The problem is exacerbated because the matchup between control and combo is more binary than the one between either of the other two. While aggro decks may usually beat combo decks (call it a 65/35 split), there's always a comeback possible. Likewise with aggro vs control, while that matchup may favor control (say 60/40), the aggro decks can potentially snowball too hard for the control player to catch back up (especially if they go second).

Control vs combo right now though is like a 90/10 split in favor of combo, Shudderwock specifically. Both deck archetypes rely on getting to the end game, but control relies on grinding the opponent out and providing answers for things on board...and there is no answer to Shudderwock, or potentially in the future a suped up version of the already powerful Malygos Druid. Control decks need to get to end game to START to win, but combo decks win once they hit end game, which is the big difference.

[Zevox]

Spoiler: New Card Reveal thoughts.

Show

Neutral
2: Galvanizer - Well hello there, Mechwarper 2.0. Not as good as its predecessor, but still likely to see play I'd wager, unless mechs just don't work out at all.
5: EMP Operative - BGH's cousin, but for mechs instead of high-attack minions. If slower mech decks are a thing (Warrior, maybe Paladin), this could be a good tech card, though probably only a one-of. Though a single potent but universal legendary could make it a more widely-used tech card too, the way Doctor Boom did BGH back in the day.
5: Seaforium Bomber - Slightly smaller cousin of that one Warrior legendary nobody ever got real use out of. Arena card.

Mage
6: Meteorologist - Mini-C'thun for Control Mage? Kind of nice. At 8 cards in hand it's Avenging Wrath with a free 3/3 attached, which is definitely solid. Does that help make a Control Mage more viable for constructed though? Eh... I wish I could be optimistic about that, but I'm not.
7: Luna's Pocket Galaxy - My actual reaction upon seeing this posted to the forums from my phone earlier: "Good gods, not another one!" Jeez, when I bemoaned the number of combo deck cards in the set, I didn't think there'd be even more. Fortunately, I don't think this one will create any functioning combo deck - since it only reduces the cost of cards still in the deck, you can't rely on a specific combo that it needs to discount, or you just lose in any game where you draw a combo piece before drawing and playing this. So it's more for Control decks to try and get value out of of... but honestly, I'm not sure how that will work. Quest Druid never really got off the ground, and that's basically what this is, and frankly probably better. So I'm currently thinking this one will be bad.

Paladin
4: Prismatic Lens - Well that's... weird. I mean, in theory it will usually get you one card that's stronger than it normally would be (possibly significantly so), but also one that's weaker than it normally would be. If you could manipulate it to get specific cards, it might be great, but as-is, I'm thinking it will likely not be so good. A screwy card to see occasionally in arena decks, I think.

Shaman
7: The Storm Bringer - When I first looked at this, I thought it was a Golden Monkey effect - and even then I thought it was probably bad at 7 mana. Looking at it again though, that's transforming just your board, isn't it? That strikes me as pretty poor then. I mean, I guess you could try to get a bunch of tokens to transform like old Evolve Shaman, but even then the average legendary these days isn't so much the big body of old, as more legendaries have become niche cards that are good for quite specific decks, small minions with potent battlecries, or the like. Not expecting anything out of this one.

Warlock
2: Void Analyst - Does Zoo run a decent number of demons these days? If so, they'll like this. If not, this won't see play. Basically as simple as that.
8: Dr. Morrigan - So, what, they want people to try and make a Big Warlock or something? Not really seeing that going anywhere, personally.

The only rational conclusion I could reach is that Blizzard really doesn't like old Control warrior.

Not only have they thoroughly killed its competitiveness, they are very clearly pushing for late game decks to be combo oriented, as opposed to grindy.

And boy does that suck for those of us who count that sort of deck as their favorite. (My favorite classic Hearthstone decks are Control Warrior and Handlock.) Especially if you're also the sort who, say, refused to run Force + Savage in Druid back in the day, and has never played a game as Miracle Rogue in your life...

And overall... It's not the worst, honestly.
Having a flashy combo as finisher is probably more fun than grinding through each other's resources in 30 minute long games. These "I win" buttons ensure that even control matchups won't take too long.
[...]
And it's not like they're completely uninteractive.
The interaction is "kill them before they can combo".

Yeah, have to completely disagree with that. "Kill them before they can combo" is the least interesting kind of "interaction" I can think of - if that sounded fun to me, I'd be an aggro player. And I very much prefer to win through grinding my opponent beneath my heels rather than just drawing all the pieces of Exodia and saying "I win."

Basically meaning control and even sort of mid range decks are dead, leaving only tempo/aggro and late game combo decks as competitively viable.

This is not a good direction for a game to go. An expansion should CREATE viable options, not delete them.

If every control deck loses to Sudderwock/Super Malygos and both lose to Zoolock/whatever other aggro or tempo deck might spring up, you have a very binary meta. It will get stale very quickly, and alienate players that prefer control.

I don't really like aggro or combo decks very much, so if that's the way the game is going, I may be getting off the bus here.

Yeah, captures my basic thoughts on the matter fairly well. I'm quite worried that it may just end up best for me to simply skip this expansion at the moment, honestly. If nothing else, those new Druid cards will work, that's not even a question in my mind, and if any of the other prospective combos do, that sort of deck could end up too out of hand for my tastes very fast.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Working on a paladin that runs big ~7+ cost minions and low cost spells for Prismatic Lens.

Galvanizer activates a ton of Mecha'Thun combos, playing a 2-reduced Mecha'Thun in warlock, then bloodbloom and cataclysm wins you the game. Anti-synergy with the idea to use it in a Hemet deck, but the combo 100% fits into a last ditch even warlock strategy.

Zoo runs Flame Imp, Despicable Dreadlord, Void Ripper, and Voidwalker, also Vulgar Homunculus if you're cutting Keleseth. So, not that many. If you're going to cut Keleseth, a card that on 2 is a 2 mana 26/26 or so, for another 2 drop, may as well cut it for demonfire if you're wanting decent tempo.

Dane Hearthstone, a prominent Wild streamer, laughs using his Iron Juggernaut DMH warrior daily. He might have fun with Seaforium Bomber, but then finds that it's an epic that does half of what a card he has does infinite of anyway.

If this is going to be a combo meta, the only value EMP Operative will be getting is stopping Mecha'Thun decks from winning. Otherwise, it could clear a pesky divine shielded, taunted, and can't be targeted mech.

Also Doctor Morrigan is utter trash. It's a card meant for a big deck, and they make it 8 mana? 9 mana with a dark pact? And then you have to keep playing it for 8 mana every time you want to recruit a new thing? Big decks want to cheat things out as early as turn 5-6, this comes out 3-4 turns later. And even then this is just worse on every level than Skull Of Man'Ari; Skull is a 5 mana play a random demon for free, this is a 9 mana "Gather The Party" that shuffles itself back into the deck and discards a dark pact. Who cares that Skull is a 5 mana tempo loss, as Anarion said Cubelock is a burst tempo deck, they don't care about tempo losses like that.

[Rynjin]

Also Doctor Morrigan is utter trash. It's a card meant for a big deck, and they make it 8 mana? 9 mana with a dark pact? And then you have to keep playing it for 8 mana every time you want to recruit a new thing? Big decks want to cheat things out as early as turn 5-6, this comes out 3-4 turns later. And even then this is just worse on every level than Skull Of Man'Ari; Skull is a 5 mana play a random demon for free, this is a 9 mana "Gather The Party" that shuffles itself back into the deck and discards a dark pact. Who cares that Skull is a 5 mana tempo loss, as Anarion said Cubelock is a burst tempo deck, they don't care about tempo losses like that.

I could see it sort used with Cube since it can kinda snowball from there, but seems really inefficient, I agree. If it was 5 mana, sure. 6 mana maybe, even.

Even then though you'll eventually run out of big things to pull. Maybe Warlock will also get a card that just pulls a random minion from their hand and puts it in or something? But I doubt it.

Maybe since they're trying to make Discard a thing again there'll be a card that plays every card that's Discarded (probably with random targets for spells and battlecries)? In which case it could work. It would then synergize with Soularium and a deck of big minions.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Less likely since that feels like a legendary effect. Or if you're talking like Augmented Elekk kind of effect, then an epic, of which there's only 1 more for Warlock.

[Gandariel]

beep boop, all the cards have been revelaed.

Please post the cards that you find most interesting and which you're unsure of in terms of rating. I'll set up a poll like last time :)

By the way, anything we could improve in the poll? number of cards? other betting types (best class, will archetype x work, etc)

[Joran]

beep boop, all the cards have been revelaed.

Please post the cards that you find most interesting and which you're unsure of in terms of rating. I'll set up a poll like last time :)

By the way, anything we could improve in the poll? number of cards? other betting types (best class, will archetype x work, etc)

I'm probably going to edit this post when I think of things.

Interesting cards

Reckless Experimenter Priest Minion: 5 mana 4/6, Deathrattle cards cost 3 less but die at end of turn.

Soul Infuser: 1 mana Warlock, Give the left-most minion in your hand +2/+2

Ideas for fun questions

A couple of fast yes/no questions might be fun.

One question I have: "Will one of Goblin Bomb cards be in a tier 2 or higher deck?"

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Which archetypes will work looks like one that I'm most interested in. In order of when I thought of them, not by alphabetical:

Spoiler: Boomsday Decks

Show

Druid
-Treant Token Druid
-Token Druid
-Floop Malygos Druid
-Twig Malygos Druid
-Togwaggle Druid
-Spiteful Druid
Hunter
-Cube Hunter
-Goblin Bomb Hunter
-Control Hunter
-Spell Hunter
-Mech Hunter
Mage
-Hand Mage
-Spell Damage Mage
-Big Minion Mage
-Elemental Mage
-Tempo Mage
-Pocket Galaxy Combo Mage
Paladin
-Control/Healing Paladin
-Mech Aggro Paladin
-Big Secret Paladin
-Tiny Buff Paladin
-Odd Paladin
Priest
-Quest/Deathrattle Priest
-Inner Fire Priest
-Zerek Buff Priest
-Clone Gallery Spellstone Priest
Rogue
-Necrium Blade Cube Tempo Rogue
-Necrium Vial Malygos Rogue
-Pogo Hopper Rogue
-Kingsbane Rogue
-Odd Rogue
-Burgle Rogue
Shaman
-Even Shaman
-Token Shaman
-Elemental Shaman
-Eureka! Malygos Shaman
-Shudderwock Shaman
Warlock
-Morrigan Combolock
-Zoolock
-Combo Counterlock
-Self Damagelock
-Demonlock
-Evenlock
Warrior
-Mad Genius Mech Warrior
-Odd Control Warrior
-Quest Warrior
-Boomship Wallet Warrior

...Is the decks that I can think of off the top of my head.

EDIT: Oh, almost forgot:
Whizbang

[Zevox]

Guess today was the big card dump. When's the actual launch? Must be pretty soon. Anyway...

Spoiler: Thoughts

Show

Neutral
1: Crystallizer - Uh.... okay? Why is this neutral rather than Warrior? They're the only class with enough armor synergy to want this. I mean, okay, maybe it could go in a class with healing to make this effectively be 5 free bonus health, but I'm not totally sure what deck wants that so much they'd run this.
1: Mecharoo - Ah, there's a good mech 1-drop at last. Possessed Villager in neutral plus the mech tag everybody. If aggro or midrange mech decks are a thing, expect to see this guy. Maybe even control, since it provides a body to magnetize.
1: Skaterbot - Unless there's a mech in this list I haven't seen yet that it's really good to give rush to, I don't think this one is worth it. The only one thus far revealed this is great for is the Warrior not-Hogger one, and Warrior can already give that rush via Boom - and even that doesn't seem that great. Don't think we'll see much of this.
2: Cloakscale Chemist - If this were a mech, it would likely be great for mech decks, because it's fantastic to stick for magnetic. But it's not, so that makes it a card that wants to be in decks with more traditional buffs, like Paladin. Pretty skeptical that kind of deck goes anywhere this expansion, personally, so I'm saying it's probably bad.
2: Spark Engine - I could possibly see this being decent for zoo-ish decks, especially if the Spark is a mech.
2: Toxicologist - Why isn't this Rogue card black? I mean, clearly this was printed for Kingsbane decks, right? Okay, probably not going to be enough to make Kingsbane good, but still, +1 to that deck's arsenal, and likely little else, I think. Unless maybe it brings back Doomhammer decks or something.
2: Unpowered Mauler - Remember how bad that 2/4 from Grand Tournament that could only attack if you used your hero power was? Well, here's a worse version. Trash.
2: Whirlglider - Hm, in a zoo-ish mech deck in a class with good ways to activate the bomb, could be good. Might also be a bit too weak though, or that type of deck may not work out.
3: Brainstormer - Interesting. Maybe a spell-heavy Mage deck or the like could make this work in constructed, though I think that's more of an off chance than anything too likely. More likely it's a (bad) arena card.
3: Bronze Gatekeeper - That 1 attack score though. This is bad on its own and really wants to be played as a buff. To be fair though, it's a pretty good buff even on a 1/1, and the flexibility to be played as a minion is something. Maybe we'll see it, but I'm skeptical of this one.
3: Electrowright - Does Big Spell Mage want a 3 mana 4/4? I don't think so, even if it were fully consistent.
3: Kaboom Bot - Actually looks pretty good. If it were Magnetic, I'd say it would definitely be in all mech decks. As-is, still could probably make the cut.
3: Microtech Controller - Not bad, could see it in a more zoo-ish, midrangey mech deck. In another meta I could maybe see it in plain old Zoolock, but I think that has better options these days.
3: Spring Rocket - It's Disciple of C'Thun, but trading the C'Thun synergy for being a mech. Probably not good enough I think - Disciple was never worth it outside of C'Thun decks, after all, and there's better mech options out there I think.
4: Coppertail Imposter - Pretty meh. The only thing giving it potential is that it's hard to remove and thus likely to give you a target for Magnetic, if that proves strong enough. Skeptical that it will though.
4: Explodinator - Another of these Goblin Bomb summoners huh? Well, in a class with access to board buffs like Savage Roar or Bloodlust, rather than Hunter having almost no support for their legendary that does this, this unfortunately might find a deck.
4: Harbinger Celestia - Well, this card sucks. Most of the time your opponent will just turn it into a crappy low-cost minion. Maybe it can find a place as a tech card against some specific deck - one of the combo decks maybe, though those tend to kill you on the turn they play something she'd want to copy. Yeah, probably just sucks.
4: Piloted Reaper - The return of Piloted Shredder? Eh, not so much since it's losing you a card relative to good old Shredder, but could still be good enough in zoo-style decks. Might see play.
4: Steel Rager - Probably one of the best "Rager" cards we've ever had, honestly. 4 mana deal 5 to a minion is almost Fireball a lot of the time, and it's neutral, and has the mech tag. Not sure it'll see play, but there might be a chance for it.
5: Holomancer - Your opponent will just kill this before it copies anything most of the time. Bad.
5: Loose Specimen - I guess if you play this on an empty board, it's just a 5 mana 6/6, which is... good? Honestly, not sure even that's good enough, and that drawback is definitely not worth it. Arena card at best.
5: Rusty Recycler - On 4 this would probably be quite good. At 5 mana though, might just cost too much.
5: Subject 9 - 5 different secrets eh? Well, this card would be insane if it were drawing almost anything else. As it stands, probably insane in Hunter, the other secret classes are more up in the air. I mean, 5 mana 4/4 draw 5... but nobody wants to run more than a couple of Mage secrets, Rogue doesn't even have this many types of secrets and hardly uses what they do have, and Paladin secrets are a joke whose best option is to not get drawn so you can cheat them out with Bellringer Sentry.
6: Damaged Stegotron - Huh, wasn't expecting Injured Blademaster 2.0. It is a mech, but I don't think it goes into mech decks unless Paladin has a new healing spell I haven't seen yet. If anyone's going to find a use for this, it'll be Priest. Maybe Shaman with Healing Rain, but only Shudderwock decks are running that, and Shudderwock decks really don't want this guy.
6: Spark Drill - Eh... it's better than Reckless Rocketeer? Yeah, the fact that that's the closest comparison to it tells me this is probably no good. Costs too much.
9: Bull Dozer - Eh, probably just not good enough for such a high mana cost. Our requisite pack filler/arena decent big neutral minion.

Druid
1: Floop's Glorious Goop - Token Druid card, given Druid doesn't have the most potent removal around. Probably gets run in that deck if that deck is any good though.
6: Tending Tauren - Actually looks pretty decent. You're probably much more likely to summon the treants than use the buff, since you'd need four targets to equal the stats of the treants, but with those it's a total of 7/8 for 6, which is not bad at all. Candidate for Token Druid.

Hunter
1: Secret Plan - Why not just run the secrets you want instead?
2: Bomb Toss - Would be good if Hunter could activate these bombs consistently. Maybe Magnetic will be enough for this one though (as opposed to the legendary that summons too many of them for Magnetic to be sufficient).
2: Goblin Prank - I guess this is supposed to be a deathrattle enabler. Cool if you had potent deathrattles to put it on I guess. Don't think the bombs count though.
2: Venomizer - Well, we found the card that Missile Launcher goes with. Oh dear, this thing could be scary with that card. Granted, 8 mana two card combo, but still, that combo gives you a 6/6 that casts Twisting Nether on everything but itself every turn. Why couldn't this have been in any other class? Gah, what I wouldn't give to have that in a class I actually play...
5: Nechromechanic - Potent effect on a not-too-bad body. Not sure Hunter has enough great deathrattles for it to see play though, especially at that mana cost (makes it harder to do combos with).
8: Flark's Boom-Zooka - Uh... what? Why does this card exist? What Hunter deck wants this? How is it supposed to be remotely reliably worth that mana cost? Ugh, so weird and inspires so many questions. I guess the best-case is pulling some minions with great deathrattles, but I doubt it's reliable enough to get the particularly strong ones.

Mage
2: Astral Rift - Nice value card, but probably too inconsistent to be worth running in constructed.
2: Research Project - It's Coldlight Oracle minus the body. Well, can't say there's no chance it gets run, there were times when Freeze Mage ran Coldlight Oracle, but right now I don't think any Mage deck wants this. They've already got Arcane Intellect, and unless Fatigue Mage becomes a thing again that definitely gets put in any deck before this gets considered, so you need something that wants so much card draw it runs both.

Paladin
1: Glow-Tron - Eh, seems decent. Anti-aggro 1-drop with the option to be used as a buff. Could be a staple of a Mech Paladin deck.
5: Mechano-Egg - If Mech Paladin is a thing at all, this will be in it. Great target for Magnetic, and even if they kill it before you get to Magnetic it, you get an 8/8, which is presumably a mech itself and as such a target for Magnetic. Strong card, could be central to a midrange-to-control Paladin mech deck.
6: Glowstone Technician - Wow, that's a big handbuff. Why did they randomly print another handbuff card? Anyway, that concept never quite worked out even when the bulk of it was in standard, so I don't think this alone will now. Maybe Wild handbuff Paladins will find a use for it.

Priest
0: Topsy Turvy - Well, some people are going to try and find combos with this. Bad luck with that, because I'm sure I'd hate them if you do find them and they actually work.
1: Test Subject - Okay, but Paladin already had one of these that didn't work out, and Priest isn't currently rocking better buff spells than Paladin, other than the always-good Power Word: Shield, which doesn't do much for this guy. Probably not going to see play.
3: Extra Arms - Well, it's a buff to try and use with Test Subject I guess. But it's a weak one I think. Too much mana for the full value, assuming "More Arms" is also 3.

Rogue
3: Violet Haze - Eh, if Journey Below saw only fringe play when it was a Discover card, I don't see how this sees any play as a random one.
5: Crazed Chemist - Well, I guess Odd Rogue had to get something. Though maybe it's a bit too costly for what it does for them... probably not, but I can hope.

Shaman
0: Beakered Lightning - It's Maelstrom Portal minus the body, almost. Eh, pretty skeptical of that personally, I think that card really needed the body to be as good as it was.
2: Elementary Reaction - Cool I guess, but still not a card that I can see pushing Elemental Shaman into viability. That deck needs some more powerful finisher, not these little utility tools they keep throwing it.

Warlock
1: Soul Infusion - Weird. I mean, 2/2 is good for 1 mana, I guess, but is it really worth jumping through this hoop for buffing the left-most minion in your hand for? I kind of doubt that.
2: Spirit Bomb - As much as I agree with the mantra that health is a resource, I'm pretty skeptical that the 1 mana savings over Shadow Bolt here is worth spending 4 health on consistently enough for this to see play.
3: Doubling Imp - Oh hey, it's Echoing Ooze with +1 attack for +1 mana. Aka the card that Soul Infusion was printed to go with. Probably goes into any version of Zoo that runs Keleseth, may or may not make it into versions that don't (if there are any).
3: Nethersoul Buster - Eh... I don't know. Most commonly, if you've hero powered or played a Vulgar Homunculus, this can be a 3/5 for 3, but not until turn 5. Maybe you push it to a 4/5 for 3 on turn 4 played alongside a Flame Imp. But only Zoo would really consider that, and I don't know if that's good enough for it to be a 1/5 for 3 any turn where you're not playing one of those cards or using your hero power.
6: Ectomancy - Probably too expensive to be good. I don't know, maybe zoo can find use for it or something, but it doesn't play nice with bigger demons due to its cost.

Warrior
2: Rocket Boots - Eh, probably weak. Too much mana for what it does.
2: Weapons Project - ...goddamn them for nerfing Firey War Axe and making this trash a card that Warrior might have to consider using.
5: Dyn-o-matic - In a deck that's nothing but mechs, maybe okay, but likely not constructed-worthy. Might see it from time to time off Discover effects like Doctor Boom's hero power though.

[Psyren]

Topsy Turvy = alternate wincon for Inner Fire priest that doubles as removal. Also it's free so you can potentially win a turn earlier. And speaking of removal - not only will it help you deal with high-health taunt minions, it also helps you take out those pesky 4-attack minions that dodge your spot removal usually.

A mini-combo from the same deck would be T1 Test Subject, T2 PWS + PWS + Topsy Turvy = Draw 5 (the three buffs + 2 more.)

***

For Mage, I'm not all that excited about the "hand mage" push they're making. However, Research Project is going to be a nice foil to some of the combo decks we're seeing (Woo, Coldlight Oracle is back) and will fit Tempo Mage like a glove I think.

***

For Paladin, I'm excited for Crystology and Mechano-Egg - I think they'll fit Buff Paladin like gloves.

When's the actual launch? Must be pretty soon.

Next week in fact!

[Mando Knight]

Spoiler: Thoughts

Show

6: Damaged Stegotron - Huh, wasn't expecting Injured Blademaster 2.0. It is a mech, but I don't think it goes into mech decks unless Paladin has a new healing spell I haven't seen yet. If anyone's going to find a use for this, it'll be Priest. Maybe Shaman with Healing Rain, but only Shudderwock decks are running that, and Shudderwock decks really don't want this guy.

A Kangor's Endless Army-based Mech-Paladin might want it: while it's only a 5/6 the first time around, it's a 5/12 when rezzed by Endless Army, plus whatever Magnetize buffs it died with. Optimizing play and decks for Kangor's Endless Army will be tricky, but if it works it will most likely revolve around magnetizing specific buffs onto otherwise-useful Mechs (so that if they get Silenced before they die, then they're not dead draws in the Endless Army pool).

I fully expect the main Paladin deck this round to again be some kind of aggressive build, though, and a Mech-oriented Kangor's Endless Army has to compete with Vinecleaver in the 7-mana slot on Odd Paladin.

[Zevox]

A Kangor's Endless Army-based Mech-Paladin might want it: while it's only a 5/6 the first time around, it's a 5/12 when rezzed by Endless Army, plus whatever Magnetize buffs it died with. Optimizing play and decks for Kangor's Endless Army will be tricky, but if it works it will most likely revolve around magnetizing specific buffs onto otherwise-useful Mechs (so that if they get Silenced before they die, then they're not dead draws in the Endless Army pool).

I fully expect the main Paladin deck this round to again be some kind of aggressive build, though, and a Mech-oriented Kangor's Endless Army has to compete with Vinecleaver in the 7-mana slot on Odd Paladin.

Eh, I don't know that I agree there, I'm actually optimistic about a midrange Mech Paladin with Kangor's Endless Army and those Mechano-Eggs as its big power cards being a thing here - unless it's just too slow to compete with the inevitable combo Druid or other combo decks that might arise, anyway. Hope it happens, because there hasn't been a Paladin deck I've liked since... Whispers of the Old Gods and N'Zoth Paladin, I think.

Fair point about Damaged Stegotron having potential with Kangor's because it gets raised at full health too. Perhaps a little iffy since you probably run enough mechs that you can't guarantee you get those specifically, but might be worth trying out at least.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Crystallizer and Nethersoul Buster find their places in Healing Zoolock. One "Damages" your hero without actually doing it to set up for your healing cards while also providing a nice 1/3 body, and Nethersoul is good if you can put down Crystallizer and Kobold Illusionist or Flame Imp on the board a couple times.

Loose Specimen and Dyn-O-Matic are great in a warrior deck that runs Rotface and other cards that benefit from taking damage. Who knows, maybe Gurubashi Berserker being a 17/2 would be pretty nice, and Frothing Berserker certainly benefits no matter what it hits, and a 5 mana 6/6 is excellent stats.

Control Hunter works now? Missile Launcher with Venomizer magnetized, or the other way around, is an 8 mana 6/6 (exactly 2 mana better than Dreadscale/Acidmaw from TGT, a 3 mana 4/2 and a 7 mana 4/2) that clears every minion on board every turn and deals 1 damage to both heroes. Aggro will find a way to deal with it, of course, and it's slow, but against aggro you can drop the Missile Launcher on 6, or on 5 if you played Galvanizer. In fact, Galvanizer makes this a 6 mana 6/6. Insane!

I will make a Goblin Bomb based deck for sure. they're minions your opponent doesn't want to touch that are ripe for the picking for magnetic buffs. And then run a cheap beast for 2 kill commands to be activated.

Necromechanic being a +2/-1 for 1 more on Baron Rivendare is insane. So many combos can be pulled off with it, and a full board of buffed up goblin bombs with this is 24 damage when they die.

Coppertail Imposter could be used in some sort of Shudderwock deck where you just play 4 saronites as well and smack face for 30 on the next turn.

[Destro_Yersul]

I think this may be the first Hearthstone expansion I don't really buy. I haven't had as much time for the game lately, so I'm not sure it's really worth it for me.

[Psyren]

It's the first xpac I've ever preordered. Recovering from surgery showed me how much easier HS is to play than many other games, so I decided it was worth investing in. (That and I had so much bloody fun with Dungeon Run/Witch Hunt and wanted to show my appreciation, not to mention the Get In Here! bundles.)

Control Hunter works now?

I assume you mean "other than Spellhunter" because that is definitely a control deck.

[Geno9999]

1: Crystallizer - Uh.... okay? Why is this neutral rather than Warrior? They're the only class with enough armor synergy to want this. I mean, okay, maybe it could go in a class with healing to make this effectively be 5 free bonus health, but I'm not totally sure what deck wants that so much they'd run this.

Warlock can run this as a Spellstone/Hooked Reaver activator. Would also combo with Nethersoul Buster, which I think would also be really good in Zoolock anyway.

1: Secret Plan - Why not just run the secrets you want instead?

This does have the benefit of potentially being the secret you need at the moment, or a 3rd and possibly 4th copy of a secret you already have in the deck. I hate Spellhunter already when Exploding Trap wipes my board a second time.

1: Glow-Tron - Eh, seems decent. Anti-aggro 1-drop with the option to be used as a buff. Could be a staple of a Mech Paladin deck.

Awesome is the word you're looking for. Dire Mole is a pretty popular 1-drop, and that card doesn't have tribal synergies in Paladin. With their Mech focus this expansion, Paladin would love this in their decks, regardless if Mechs are their primary or secondary strategy.

5: Crazed Chemist - Well, I guess Odd Rogue had to get something. Though maybe it's a bit too costly for what it does for them... probably not, but I can hope.

Hmm, this card is competing against Cobalt Scalebane in terms of overall effect, with Chemist being more immediate and focused, while Cobalt is more long term and random across the board (though Odd Rogue doesn't usually go too wide.) However, I think ultimately I would pick Cobalt since it 1) has a decent body by itself, 2) only needs a friendly minion already in play, not needing another card to combo with it. Obviously Crazed Chemist will inherit Cobalt's slot when he rotates out, but that's still a ways off.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Before anyone goes crazy about Nethersoul Buster, contrary to the card text the reveal stream shows that it checks for instances of damage, not each point of damage individually. So on turn 4 crystallizer plus this is not a 1/3 and 6/5, it's a 1/3 and 2/5.

Kangor's Endless Army summons the mech eggs back with any magnetic effects on them, so you could summon that, the 8/8 mechasaur, and a damaged stegotron, for 7 Mana. Just would have to be in a papadin deck with a bunch of buff spells and only magnetic mechs so you don't have to poison your resurrect pool. Definitely a cool card and strategy I suspect a whizbang deck will be based around, but I don't intend to play with it.

I assume you mean "other than Spellhunter" because that is definitely a control deck.

Of course. What spell hunter would run venomizer and Missile Launcher?

[Geno9999]

Before anyone goes crazy about Nethersoul Buster, contrary to the card text the reveal stream shows that it checks for instances of damage, not each point of damage individually. So on turn 4 crystallizer plus this is not a 1/3 and 6/5, it's a 1/3 and 2/5.

What? The reveal stream shows the opposite: it counts the total damage you've taken and adds it to the Buster's attack. You can see the Warlock tap, play Void Analyst (which has it's buffs in it's deathrattle, not as a battlecry), then plays the Nethersoul Buster which then becomes a 3/5, not a 2/5.

[Spore]

What are your general feelings towards Hearthstone's new expansion, considering its reveal and its change in staff?

I ask because people want Ben Brode back, because he is just a charismatic head figure and was for years. Neither Mike 'the Whisper' Donais nor Peter 'the Silent Grin' Whalen are adequate spokespersons for the game. Donais was incredibly eclipsed by a very dominant Day9, and you can tell he isnt used to public attention. He did well considering that but they really need someone that can deal with this much attention. Peter Whalen was even worse imho. He is a bit more dominant but his voice is just unpleasant to listen to.

As for the expansion, people moan that it is a GvG recycle because of the mechs. But I feel magnetic is interesting if a bit of a niche effect. If you don't run a mech theme, you can't run magnetic. Same with Omega cards. In a control meta these look decent but ultimatively Shudderwock ruins Control, making successful decks be aggro variants. Of course magnetic lends itself to aggro decks (buff a mech that can already attack is just face damage that stays on the board).

Also I predict a rise and fall of Mech Warrior. The idea is great, but grindy control warriors still struggle against Shudderwock and Druids. Of course big mechs in the "early late game", say turn 9-12, are still quicker than a shudderwock. But combo druid variants still outarmor something like that. but I am a small fry and cannot predict a whole meta fully.

I anticipate deathrattle big hunter jumping out of the bushes, as well as Miracle Rogue. Mage and Shaman are wonky imho

As for Brode leaving, I think that is a hard hit for Blizzard and Team 5. But as he said in a podcast once, the two next expansions after Boomsday are already mostly finished. The one after it is mostly done, while the one after that is in a phase where a new director of Team 5 could easily steer away from everything HS did until now and refresh the game. So we have to wait until 2019 to feel its impact fully. For now you have to live with weird spokespersons and miss our plaid-colored laughing bear.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

What? The reveal stream shows the opposite: it counts the total damage you've taken and adds it to the Buster's attack. You can see the Warlock tap, play Void Analyst (which has it's buffs in it's deathrattle, not as a battlecry), then plays the Nethersoul Buster which then becomes a 3/5, not a 2/5.

Oh lol. I guess I wasn't paying attention and thought that crystallizer that was already on the board had been played that turn, saw that he had tapped, and calculated that that fit within 8 mana, but saw no issues with that the crystallizer wasn't very recent on the history bar.

So actually this is much insaner than I thought.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

What are your general feelings towards Hearthstone's new expansion, considering its reveal and its change in staff?

They work on 2-3 expansions at a time; This one was done before Brode left.

But I agree, they need someone more charismatic than Donais to go on the streams with Day[9].

If they could get Brode back just for the final reveal streams his reactions to the cards and Sean's remarks would more than make up for "the whisper" and "the silent grin" getting on the reveals somehow.

[Psyren]

Of course. What spell hunter would run venomizer and Missile Launcher?

None would, but you seemed to be implying that Hunter has no control decks at all. That's what I was reacting to.

What are your general feelings towards Hearthstone's new expansion, considering its reveal and its change in staff?

I ask because people want Ben Brode back, because he is just a charismatic head figure and was for years. Neither Mike 'the Whisper' Donais nor Peter 'the Silent Grin' Whalen are adequate spokespersons for the game. Donais was incredibly eclipsed by a very dominant Day9, and you can tell he isnt used to public attention. He did well considering that but they really need someone that can deal with this much attention. Peter Whalen was even worse imho. He is a bit more dominant but his voice is just unpleasant to listen to.

I only look at card spoilers, and maybe reviews by my preferred streamers (list given previously). I couldn't care less about the official hype machine. Not only do you have to wade through a lot of chaff that's trying too hard to be funny just to get to the cards themselves, I find that very often the way they show a card being used does not end up being the optimal way to use that card anyway. Besides, I prefer to think through those kinds of puzzles/interactions myself, or come across/defeat them in play.

As for Brode, I wasn't even aware his memetic status until the last iteration of this thread. Maybe I missed out, but the upside to that is I don't feel any sense of loss either.

As for the expansion, people moan that it is a GvG recycle because of the mechs. But I feel magnetic is interesting if a bit of a niche effect. If you don't run a mech theme, you can't run magnetic. Same with Omega cards. In a control meta these look decent but ultimatively Shudderwock ruins Control, making successful decks be aggro variants. Of course magnetic lends itself to aggro decks (buff a mech that can already attack is just face damage that stays on the board).

You have to play the long game here. I'd lay 75% odds they nerf Shudderwock again, and then control will pick up steam.

Until then - there are actually several fun aggro decks I want to try this meta. The big reason I hated aggro in the past was the lack of card draw, but Odd Paladin, Tempo Mage and Odd Rogue have that in spades.

[Spore]

If they could get Brode back just for the final reveal streams his reactions to the cards and Sean's remarks would more than make up for "the whisper" and "the silent grin" getting on the reveals somehow.

Of course I am a layman but I dont think a professional caster and some technical advisor make great card reviewers. Frodan and Day 9 would have been an enjoyable mix, with either person from the dev team as just a source of information.

I only look at card spoilers, and maybe reviews by my preferred streamers (list given previously). I couldn't care less about the official hype machine. Not only do you have to wade through a lot of chaff that's trying too hard to be funny just to get to the cards themselves, I find that very often the way they show a card being used does not end up being the optimal way to use that card anyway.

I don't look at card reviews. They are wrong 85% of the times anyway but I like the reveal streams because I can make up my own mind while not being "spoilered" by any other sources. I would not cry if they just did a cold and mechanical "show card for 3 minutes", then showcase it in a turn and repeat.

[Psyren]

I don't look at card reviews. They are wrong 85% of the times anyway but I like the reveal streams because I can make up my own mind while not being "spoilered" by any other sources.

Oh absolutely they're wrong. And that's half the fun, at least for me I get to watch hilarious videos like this.

As for being spoiled by other sources... I don't understand wanting to see spoilers, but only from one source. When they are previewing a card on the official US channel and then a different card on another channel in China and again on another channel in Korea, how will I know the cards in the other two aren't interesting? The answer is compilation sites and streamer reviews (right or wrong.)

[Spore]

Oh absolutely they're wrong. And that's half the fun, at least for me I get to watch hilarious videos like this.

I'm sorry that was hilarious.

As for being spoiled by other sources... I don't understand wanting to see spoilers, but only from one source. When they are previewing a card on the official US channel and then a different card on another channel in China and again on another channel in Korea, how will I know the cards in the other two aren't interesting? The answer is compilation sites and streamer reviews (right or wrong.)

In the time of the internet, unspoiled fun has become so rare. Imagine a world where an expansion gets released and you DONT know all cards. :)

[Gandariel]

My first proposal of list of cards for us to evaluate: please give suggestions of which cards to change !

Biology project
Dreampetal Florist
Fireworks tech
[The mage spell damage package] (example, Unexpected results)
Reckless Experimenter
Myra unstable element
Thunderhead
Weapons Project
Wargear
Cloakscale Chemist (if buff priest is a thing, this guy will be insane in it IMO)
Zilliax

Please do give your suggestions ASAP, the expansion is launching really soon and I want to get the poll going !

[Psyren]

In the time of the internet, unspoiled fun has become so rare. Imagine a world where an expansion gets released and you DONT know all cards. :)

Oh, you mean you don't want any spoilers? I mean, there's a pretty easy solution to that...