MitD XI: A good man

[Kish]

Still, do we know that carbuncles use dimension door and not plane shift?

The one in OotS did, because those it teleported didn't shift plane; Plane Shift can't be used for monoplane teleportation.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The one in OotS did, because those it teleported didn't shift plane; Plane Shift can't be used for monoplane teleportation.

True. Added it to 1.c.

Grey Wolf

[b_jonas]

Since dimension door does seem like a poor man's version of teleport,

Poor men's? No, it's the rich thiefs' version. Dimension door allows an eight level sorcerer to enter every third story apartment despite the safety door with three locks and all the windows barred, unless the owner regularly pays for an expensive eights level spell to bar that (and I think only banks can afford that for their vaults), or protection fee to the local thieves' guild, if your town has one. Teleport is the one that doesn't give you real power, it's for role-players who only care about the combat and want to skip all the nice stories about journeys.

[Peelee]

Poor men's? No, it's the rich thiefs' version. Dimension door allows an eight level sorcerer to enter every third story apartment despite the safety door with three locks and all the windows barred, unless the owner regularly pays for an expensive eights level spell to bar that (and I think only banks can afford that for their vaults), or protection fee to the local thieves' guild, if your town has one. Teleport is the one that doesn't give you real power, it's for role-players who only care about the combat and want to skip all the nice stories about journeys.

Imean, the point behind "poor man's teleport" was it being the lowest level spell that allows one to teleport, since 3.5 didn't have Misty Step (IIRC).

[b_jonas]

Imean, the point behind "poor man's teleport" was it being the lowest level spell that allows one to teleport, since 3.5 didn't have Misty Step (IIRC).

Yes. But mind you, OOTS has the D&D 3.5 Shadowdancer prestige class. This appears in OOTS #229 "Thar's no shadows!", which I wanted to use as the title of this MitD thread, and then again in #242. These two strips tell that the masked robber has taken the Shadowdancer prestige class. After four levels of the prestige class, it gives the Shadow Jump supernatural ability, which you might consider a rich robber's version of the Dimension Door spell. I don't know the character progression rules, so I can't tell how many levels or hit dice you need to take to satisfy all the requirements of the prestige class and take four levels of it, so I also can't tell if it's less than the eight levels you need in Sorcerer for Dimension Door.

Both Dimension Door and Shadow Jump have short distance limits (1200 ft for a level 20 Sorcerer and 160 ft for a level 10 Shadowdancer respectively), not enough to send O-Chul and Vaarsuvius to another continent. Nevertheless, they're relevant enough that we have to think carefully whether there's some way the MitD could have used it before we exclude them. I know the first post already says that we can exclude Dimension Door because of its "pitiable range", but please let's at least think through whether we're really sure in this. The special occasion for bringing this up now is Riarra's find in the newly released book:

In Good Deeds Gone Unpunished, the carbuncle is able to teleport Mr. Scruffy without going along itself. Based on things I've read elsewhere on the forums, it's probably using Dimension Door, which would normally affect the caster like Teleport does (disclaimer that I'm not familiar with DnD and may have misread a source). Does this make Teleport a better explanation for the escape scene?

In particular, suppose for a moment that the MitD would somehow have access to a spell or spell-like ability or supernatural ability similar to Dimension Door or Shadow Jump. Could he have used it as a first action to get Vaarsuvius and O-Chul away from Xykon's immediate view, before some unseen ally would transport them to another continent off-screen before Xykon would find them? The unseen ally and the MitD's nonchalant behavior afterwise seem very unlikely, but let me just try to postpone that part and think about the first action in itself.

But there are some circumstances that would be on the MitD's side. The Dimension Door spell allows you to target yourself and at least two touuched willing medium creatures. I don't understand from the rules how many creatures a Shadowdancer can take with him using the Shadow Jump ability, but #242 at least makes it clear that the masked human robber could take the dwarf robber with him. I've already talked a lot about about my pet theory on how the MitD could succeed to make a touch attack and karmic justice on Xykon after he does an off-screen ankle touch attack to paralyze O-Chul in the Azure City throne room. The Grey Wolf already talked a lot about the stray dimensional anchor that would stop him from teleporting, and now Riarra's evidence also says that we might not even need the Dimension Anchor. Also, the MitD is permanently shrouded in the magical darkness of his box, which is probably enough of a shadow to initiate such an ability, even if Vaarsuvius and O-Chul are lit. If he can see in that magical darkness, then he can also make a tentacle touch attack from the magical darkness while his body stays in the shadows. Do we know of any shadow creatures who get to use the Shadow Jump supernatural ability without taking class levels?

There is, by the way, also a higher level Shadow Walk spell, which in theory lets you walk through walls or at least temporarily make Vaarsuvius and O-Chul apparently disappear from Xykon's view, and at move them into the shadows of the box. I haven't looked at it much for now, but the question is the same: do we know of any creatures who can use that without going through sorcerer levels or bard training?

[timebust]

Would it be possible that MitD is a draeden, as described in BD&D's Immortals Set/Wrath of the Immortals? They've got the sheer power, the ridiculously good AC, mortal wizards are unlikely to know about them, to those unable to see through their default psychic disguise they look like whatever the observer fears most, and they've got access to literally all spells in BD&D.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Would it be possible that MitD is a draeden, as described in BD&D's Immortals Set/Wrath of the Immortals? They've got the sheer power, the ridiculously good AC, mortal wizards are unlikely to know about them, to those unable to see through their default psychic disguise they look like whatever the observer fears most, and they've got access to literally all spells in BD&D.

They are colossal ("The creature's total length is about 1,000ft per HD; the width of the central node is about 10% of the total length. Therefore a 101 HD draeden is about 19 miles from tip to tip, its central node is nearly two miles across, and each strand is 8 1/2 miles long." [source]). Having access to any spell would imply that he could raise the dead, which MitD cannot.

Grey Wolf

[Quartz]

Yeah, I came across that one, but that ones doesn't fit at all - no fake left behind.

Surely a carbuncle doesn't fit anyway as it's too small? Remember Oona's comments. And it can't shatter the ground.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Surely a carbuncle doesn't fit anyway as it's too small? Remember Oona's comments. And it can't shatter the ground.

Irrelevant. No-one is suggesting the carbuncle as an MitD proposal.

Grey Wolf

[Crusher]

Omg Omg Omg

Astral plane incoming.

[Shashakiro]

While this is of course subjective, my read on Rich's priorities when it comes to writing and art consistency versus D&D rules adherence is that "The MitD is a Protean and that character's eyes are always drawn the same due to artistic license" is a drastically less likely 'fudge' for him than "The MitD is a kid Ha-Naga who happens to be very strong for his age". Not that I think either is actually likely (Ha-Naga isn't a very good solution either IMO), but my point is that I think Protean is much less likely because the fudge required is one I personally think Rich would regard as far more dubious. Again, this is subjective, so others may (and clearly do based on the vote count) disagree.

Now, I've said before that contrary to the consensus here, I do think well-known-ness is a significant plus. I thought before that all the FBS options listed in OP were of roughly equal obscurity, but it appears that this was erroneous because of Slaads not actually being obscure at all in D&D. Also, reading up on Slaads makes it clear that they get bigger (White -> Black) and CN feels completely correct for MitD's base alignment, with O-Chul's influence changing it to CG.

Accordingly, I'm considering changing my vote from ANB to Slaad, but I don't quite understand all the counterarguments to that guess as presented in the OP, especially because I lack current access to SoD (though I've read it).

Anyone feel like arguing against the Slaad guess to me here? In particular, what's the deal with the parentage objection--particularly, what in SoD does it purportedly contradict? This is really the only thing stopping me from changing my vote right now.

[Keltest]

While this is of course subjective, my read on Rich's priorities when it comes to writing and art consistency versus D&D rules adherence is that "The MitD is a Protean and that character's eyes are always drawn the same due to artistic license" is a drastically less likely 'fudge' for him than "The MitD is a kid Ha-Naga who happens to be very strong for his age". Not that I think either is actually likely (Ha-Naga isn't a very good solution either IMO), but my point is that I think Protean is much less likely because the fudge required is one I personally think Rich would regard as far more dubious. Again, this is subjective, so others may (and clearly do based on the vote count) disagree.

Now, I've said before that contrary to the consensus here, I do think well-known-ness is a significant plus. I thought before that all the FBS options listed in OP were of roughly equal obscurity, but it appears that this was erroneous because of Slaads not actually being obscure at all in D&D. Also, reading up on Slaads makes it clear that they get bigger (White -> Black) and CN feels completely correct for MitD's base alignment, with O-Chul's influence changing it to CG.

Accordingly, I'm considering changing my vote from ANB to Slaad, but I don't quite understand all the counterarguments to that guess as presented in the OP, especially because I lack current access to SoD (though I've read it).

Anyone feel like arguing against the Slaad guess to me here? In particular, what's the deal with the parentage objection--particularly, what in SoD does it purportedly contradict? This is really the only thing stopping me from changing my vote right now.

From my understanding, the objection is that Slaad aren't born like mammals, but instead hatch from eggs implanted in hosts, and then evolve through different types, pokemon style. Thus, having a dad who is like him, but bigger seems unlikely. Its not strictly impossible, but it would be seriously abnormal for a Slaad to do that.

[Shashakiro]

From my understanding, the objection is that Slaad aren't born like mammals, but instead hatch from eggs implanted in hosts, and then evolve through different types, pokemon style. Thus, having a dad who is like him, but bigger seems unlikely. Its not strictly impossible, but it would be seriously abnormal for a Slaad to do that.

What exactly does MitD say about his dad?

(I combed OP and couldn't find the quote anywhere).

[godsflunky]

"I do remember my dad, sort of. He was BIG, and he ate a lot. Way more than I do."

[Ruck]

While this is of course subjective, my read on Rich's priorities when it comes to writing and art consistency versus D&D rules adherence is that "The MitD is a Protean and that character's eyes are always drawn the same due to artistic license" is a drastically less likely 'fudge' for him than "The MitD is a kid Ha-Naga who happens to be very strong for his age". Not that I think either is actually likely (Ha-Naga isn't a very good solution either IMO), but my point is that I think Protean is much less likely because the fudge required is one I personally think Rich would regard as far more dubious. Again, this is subjective, so others may (and clearly do based on the vote count) disagree.

I don't think artistic license is as big a stretch as outright changing a monster's stats.

I'm repeating myself at this point, but: The thing to remember is that Rich started drawing the MitD before he knew what species it would be, but he still chose the creature that would best fit the story, not that would best fit the artwork to date. You've also got to remember that Rich is trying to keep the species secret until the time to reveal the MitD in the story has come; if he drew MitD's eyes in a fashion that obviously moved around like a Protean's might, well, that would defeat the purpose.

[b_jonas]

What exactly does MitD say about his dad?

(I combed OP and couldn't find the quote anywhere).

Try to use the "Spoilers -> Show all" javascript button on page 1 of the thread, then a text search for "dad". There are three matches, all three relevant, and two give the link to the relevant strip.

[halfeye]

The thing to remember is that Rich started drawing the MitD before he knew what species it would be, but he still chose the creature that would best fit the story, not that would best fit the artwork to date. You've also got to remember that Rich is trying to keep the species secret until the time to reveal the MitD in the story has come; if he drew MitD's eyes in a fashion that obviously moved around like a Protean's might, well, that would defeat the purpose.

I don't remember the Giant saying that the artwork up to that point didn't fit the MitD's species, I've got a slight feeling that he said that the older comics did fit with the new species, but I've got no clue where he said that if he did.

The way I see it is that keeping the MitD's identity secret is a game, and drawing something that didn't fit the monster would be cheating in that game, so the Giant won't do that.

[BasiliskSoldier]

Yeah, Protean feels like too much of a cheat for it to be likely, and Slaad are just way too well known.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I do think well-known-ness is a significant plus.

Slaad are just way too well known.

I've been doing this for over 9 years now, and to this day I still don't understand either position, nor how they believe they can measure it.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

I don't remember the Giant saying that the artwork up to that point didn't fit the MitD's species, I've got a slight feeling that he said that the older comics did fit with the new species, but I've got no clue where he said that if he did.

The way I see it is that keeping the MitD's identity secret is a game, and drawing something that didn't fit the monster would be cheating in that game, so the Giant won't do that.

No, he didn't say that. I'm saying that if he decided the best monster for the story he wanted to tell was a Protean, he would make MitD a Protean regardless of the artwork (but I mean, the artwork is also literally "a pair of eyes in the dark"), and he wouldn't change the artwork in a way to give away the identity of the monster. I don't think Rich would plan out a story that's going to take him literally 20 years to write when it's all said and done, and decide he can't use the monster he wants to because "most people familiar with the Protean would expect the eyes to move around."

Have you looked at the list of FBS monsters? Every one of them has something you're going to have to overlook or rationalize in order to fit it in. I've given my reasons why I think both that the Protean requires the least amount of rationalizing and that the Protean best fits for the themes of the story. If I'm going to be convinced it's not a Protean, I'm going to need something that fits better than the Protean does. I haven't seen that.

[b_jonas]

I'm saying that if he decided the best monster for the story he wanted to tell was a Protean, he would make MitD a Protean regardless of the artwork (but I mean, the artwork is also literally "a pair of eyes in the dark"), and he wouldn't change the artwork in a way to give away the identity of the monster.

Perhaps, but what the giant actually said is quoted in the first post, right in the second spoiler box. It's “Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since. (Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either.)”.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Perhaps, but what the giant actually said is quoted in the first post, right in the second spoiler box. It's “Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since. (Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either.)”.

And...?

Nothing in that quote suggests that Ruck's interpretation is outright wrong. If in #100 Rich decided that the strength, size and powers of the protean was what he needed for the story, with the only downside is that eventually he'd need to explain why MitD never changes his face, then nothing from before that strip contradicts the truth of what he would be either.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

And...?

Nothing in that quote suggests that Ruck's interpretation is outright wrong. If in #100 Rich decided that the strength, size and powers of the protean was what he needed for the story, with the only downside is that eventually he'd need to explain why MitD never changes his face, then nothing from before that strip contradicts the truth of what he would be either.

Grey Wolf

I still maintain the position that when the only consistent defining trait about a creature is its lack of consistent features, having the only features we can see be consistent is a massive negative. Even beyond the eyes, a protean would be incredibly unlikely to be able to keep its form steady enough at all times to fit under the umbrella's darkness, or to hold it steady.

[Shashakiro]

I've been doing this for over 9 years now, and to this day I still don't understand either position, nor how they believe they can measure it.

Grey Wolf

Number of Google hits seems a fair measure. Though I stand corrected, because Glabrezu is at least on the same order of magnitude by that measure. But I don't really buy Glabrezu anyway for other reasons.

As for why it matters: in my view, the au priori odds of a monster having been picked by Rich are higher if it's well-known, because I don't think his process for determining MitD's species involved reading literally every sourcebook printed at the time, nor do I think he went out of his way to pick an obscure creature. I tried explaining this in the last thread and persuaded precisely nobody, so I don't expect to change your view on this, but I certainly stand by it.

The reason I'm not persuaded by Ruck's argument on the Protean boils down to a disagreement with this premise:

"I'm saying that if he decided the best monster for the story he wanted to tell was a Protean"

I simply do not believe this is the way Rich writes his story. For example, the existence of Kudzu is obviously quite important to the current plot and character development of Durkon, but I would be astonished if Hilgya was originally designed with this outcome squarely in mind, and I expect (but would not quite be astonished otherwise) that even the "fling" they had was not written with Kudzu's eventual reveal in mind. Rather, I think the most likely process was that the Kudzu twist was written in light of the fact that the "fling" was something that already happened, instead of the fling being written because Kudzu was supposed to happen.

In a similar vein, I think MitD = Protean would not have been picked for the story because it didn't fit the already-existing art. I think even if he'd thought of the idea of the Protean having a cruicial role in the story, he would have rejected the idea due to the MitD's art not really fitting, and come up with a different plot arc instead. At the very least, he would have stopped drawing the eyes in a consistent way. Just my read on Rich.

From some research, White Slaad seems to have this thing with getting glimpses of stuff from different points in the timeline, which may explain the various spotty memories he has (and even perhaps "not seeing the gate"). Even seems to explain how he could "remember" his dad. Works for me. The hunters being surprised by Common is the only true demerit left, and that can just be explained by the hunters having never seen a talking Slaad before. Death/White/Black Slaads can speak Common, but most Slaads generally cannot.

Changing vote to Slaad.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Number of Google hits seems a fair measure.

So you think that Rich googled various possible creatures and picked the one with the most results?

As for why it matters: in my view, the au priori odds of a monster having been picked by Rich are higher if it's well-known, because I don't think his process for determining MitD's species involved reading literally every sourcebook printed at the time, nor do I think he went out of his way to pick an obscure creature.

Rich has been playing this game for decades, including professionally. I don't expect he would need to scour every sourcebook, just that is is completely plausible that he already had handy an obscure sourcebook from when he test played it, happened to remember creature X from it being just what he needed, and went with it. Since a minor part of MitD was to be a challenging puzzle for what at the time was an audience of hard-core D&D fans, an obscure one would make, if anything, more sense.

The reason I'm not persuaded by Ruck's argument on the Protean boils down to a disagreement with this premise:

"I'm saying that if he decided the best monster for the story he wanted to tell was a Protean"

I simply do not believe this is the way Rich writes his story. For example, the existence of Kudzu is obviously quite important to the current plot and character development of Durkon, but I would be astonished if Hilgya was originally designed with this outcome squarely in mind, and I expect (but would not quite be astonished otherwise) that even the "fling" they had was not written with Kudzu's eventual reveal in mind. Rather, I think the most likely process was that the Kudzu twist was written in light of the fact that the "fling" was something that already happened, instead of the fling being written because Kudzu was supposed to happen.

Rich knew he would one day make Durkon a vampire after page 4 of the comic. That's how he writes this story, whether you believe it or not. I can perfectly believe that he had the fling with Hilgya to lay the groundwork for a reason to not give up on vampirization down the line. Moreover, Hilgya happened before #100, so even if the fling wasn't meant to go anywhere, his choice of MitD did. Since his plans for MitD involved a creature that wants to fit in with the bad guys despite not truly being a bad guy himself, a creature who is constantly mutating but is struggling to fit in a world where no-one else mutates makes perfect thematic sense.

Grey Wolf

[Shashakiro]

So you think that Rich googled various possible creatures and picked the one with the most results?

Of course not. You claimed not to understand how well-known-ness "could be measured", and I answered.

Rich has been playing this game for decades, including professionally. I don't expect he would need to scour every sourcebook, just that is is completely plausible that he already had handy an obscure sourcebook from when he test played it, happened to remember creature X from it being just what he needed, and went with it.

I agree entirely that what you said is plausible, and never said a word to the contrary. If I thought it implausible that the MitD had an obscure species, I wouldn't have cast my original vote for ANB.

Since a minor part of MitD was to be a challenging puzzle for what at the time was an audience of hard-core D&D fans, an obscure one would make, if anything, more sense.

I really don't think he went looking for an obscure creature on purpose. I admit that this is based entirely on my subjective assessment of him, but I just don't think he did that. Doesn't feel like Rich to me.

Rich knew he would one day make Durkon a vampire after page 4 of the comic. That's how he writes this story, whether you believe it or not.

But this example entirely supports what I'm saying. Durkon becoming a vampire was something he had in his head from early on, and my entire point is that, like (I believe) Hilgya existing and (I believe) MitD's species, that longstanding concept wasn't born out of 'serious story reasons'. Rather, the 'serious story stuff' (i.e. everything having to do with Malack that wasn't a joke) was invented to fit the basic outline of "I'd like Durkon to become a vampire sometime", which itself came from an unused early joke.

If Rich had instead said that he had come up with the concept of Durkon vampirizing from page #4 onward because he wanted to someday use the memory-sending mechanic to show us scenes from Durkon's past, that would be support for the "MitD = Protean because of the character development ramifications" position. But again, I don't think that's generally how Rich writes.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Of course not. You claimed not to understand how well-known-ness "could be measured", and I answered.

Your answer is invalid, then, as I showed. You might as well say that you will measure "well-known-ness" by saying the name out as you roll a dice. If it doesn't actually correlate to the situation at hand, how often people mention a name on web pages is not a measure relevant to this discussion.

I agree entirely that what you said is plausible, and never said a word to the contrary.

You said, and I quote, "I do think well-known-ness is a significant plus" and "nor do I think he went out of his way to pick an obscure creature". You cannot both agree with that, and that being an obscure creature is a plausible possibility.

Durkon becoming a vampire was something he had in his head from early on, and my entire point is that, like (I believe) Hilgya existing and (I believe) MitD's species, that longstanding concept wasn't born out of 'serious story reasons'. Rather, the 'serious story stuff' (i.e. everything having to do with Malack that wasn't a joke) was invented to fit the basic outline of "I'd like Durkon to become a vampire sometime", which itself came from an unused early joke.

Then what you believe is at complete odds with what Rich described the process to actually be. No, MitD's species was not selected "early on" to "fulfill a joke". As described, it was picked at around #100, to fill a narrative role.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

Rich knew he would one day make Durkon a vampire after page 4 of the comic. That's how he writes this story, whether you believe it or not. I can perfectly believe that he had the fling with Hilgya to lay the groundwork for a reason to not give up on vampirization down the line. Moreover, Hilgya happened before #100, so even if the fling wasn't meant to go anywhere, his choice of MitD did. Since his plans for MitD involved a creature that wants to fit in with the bad guys despite not truly being a bad guy himself, a creature who is constantly mutating but is struggling to fit in a world where no-one else mutates makes perfect thematic sense.

Grey Wolf

Also, as I've said before, given O-Chul's efforts to get the MitD to think for himself and listen to his conscience, and given the things he's already shown he's capable of when he puts in even minimal effort, it would make a lot of thematic sense for his journey if his creature type was actually something that could be described as "can be whatever he wants if he puts his mind to it," physically, not just metaphorically.

(For the record, I also think the Protean far and away best explains the circus scene.)

Durkon becoming a vampire was something he had in his head from early on, and my entire point is that, like (I believe) Hilgya existing and (I believe) MitD's species, that longstanding concept wasn't born out of 'serious story reasons'.

[citation needed], because I think you're objectively wrong about this. The MitD's existence may have been created just so Team Evil had a vague, scary threat, but Rich decided on his species because said species is important to the story.

Also, looking at the guess list, you have Athasian Nightmare Beast. I think the Protean better fits the themes of the story, best fits the big scenes, and also, the Protean was actually public knowledge when Rich decided what the MitD would be. "Eyes don't move like I think they should" is much less a fudge for me than "creature wasn't even published yet, but we assume the author was somehow aware of it."

[Shashakiro]

Your answer is invalid, then, as I showed. You might as well say that you will measure "well-known-ness" by saying the name out as you roll a dice. If it doesn't actually correlate to the situation at hand, how often people mention a name on web pages is not a measure relevant to this discussion.

If well-known-ness is relevant, and Google hits are a fair measure of well-known-ness, then Google hits are a perfectly valid thing to consider. I understand you and most others here think well-known-ness is not relevant, but that point has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not obscurity itself is a measurable quantity.

You said, and I quote, "I do think well-known-ness is a significant plus" and "nor do I think he went out of his way to pick an obscure creature". You cannot both agree with that, and that being an obscure creature is a plausible possibility.

The first of those quotes is compatible on its face with obscurity being plausible, and would only not be if I had said "I do think well-known-ness is a requirement", which I did not.

The second only means that I think he didn't pick an obscure creature by reason of it being obscure, which is something you suggested. That does not mean he couldn't have picked an obscure creature for a reason unrelated to its obscurity.

I'll just concede that I've lost the argument on the "how Rich writes stories" point, as I made poor word choices there that undermine my overall point in a way I don't think I can recover from.

(and Ruck, I changed my vote to Slaad a few posts ago)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If well-known-ness is relevant, and Google hits are a fair measure of well-known-ness, then Google hits are a perfectly valid thing to consider.

Yes, but you have not established that "google hits" are a valid thing to consider when contemplating how well known MitD species needs to be, just said it was. Even if I agreed that it had to be well known - which I do not - "how many hits you get in google in 2018" is an irrelevant measure when contemplating a creature picked in 2004. Thus my comment about your method requiring Rich to have gone through the process of it at comic #100.

I understand you and most others here think well-known-ness is not relevant, but that point has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not obscurity itself is a measurable quantity.

Sure, but the method you proposed is arbitrary regardless.

Grey Wolf