MitD XI: A good man

[Keltest]

Yeah, I see that point, but were we ever considering things that were Medium to begin with? My memory is faulty, but I think we had earlier established an "upper limit" on Size (Colossal, maybe?) and now we can arguably do away with that self-imposed limitation. We can broaden our search now.

Why? We know the MITD is bigger than medium, but I don't recall there being any information that overrides the logic behind our imposed maximum size. We know his species is bigger than medium, but that's still a lot of ground to cover.

[Synesthesy]

EDIT: To put it another way: Size as a factor would narrow our search, because we'd be searching for creatures who could fit under the umbrella/in the box. If we're told that Size is NOT a factor (as I assert we have been), then it makes the search broader in scope because that's one less variable to nail down. Still possible to guess, sure, but now there are more monsters that might fit MitD because we're no longer ruling out things purely based on Size.

Does that clarify things at all? (I'm sincerely asking.)

Yes, now it does.

And yes, I agree with you that knowing the language list or the exact size would be better then knowing an exception to the language list or a minumum size.

But it is the way guessing game usually works, they give both positive (ex: he has the power to make someone escape) and negative clues (ex: he shouldn't speak common).

It reminds me of some game where you have 5 people living in 5 different town liking 5 different dishes and having 5 different pets, and you have to guess who owns the goldfish with some clues. Knowing that who lives in New York doesn't own a dog is not good as knowing that whoever owns the goldfish likes pizza, but this is what you get.

[Laze]

I'm not familiar with the saying you've quoted, but from context...maybe?

It's the intro from Fallout New Vegas. It's a pretty good game.

[Mordaedil]

There's still a lot of unanswered questions too.

1) We can assume that the creature is not from an earlier D&D edition than 3rd, given that it was the joke of an entire arc, but we cannot be absolutely sure and can't dismiss anything providing a valuable clue.

2) Xykon is either not very knowledgable about the creature or its teleport ability non-standard to its race given that he's not even on Xykon's list of possible culprits for who could have saved O-Chul and V.

3) Having played Go, I can verify that MITD has to be extremely strategic to even know how to play the game to the point he has, even if he makes mistakes. The entire board game is played as control of zones and the winner is whoever can capture the largest zone, which require insight beyond just randomly putting pieces on the board. It's one of those games that AI has not been able to play properly until recently. And given that he understands the game and what makes him safe, it is safe to say his intelligence is far above average. His learning ability is also up there, picking up on the game in a short time.

I think there is a strong chance of it being either a template or at least a special kind of its kind. Not that this is new information, new information is kinda rare to come upon here.

[Laze]

3) Having played Go, I can verify that MITD has to be extremely strategic to even know how to play the game to the point he has, even if he makes mistakes. The entire board game is played as control of zones and the winner is whoever can capture the largest zone, which require insight beyond just randomly putting pieces on the board. It's one of those games that AI has not been able to play properly until recently. And given that he understands the game and what makes him safe, it is safe to say his intelligence is far above average. His learning ability is also up there, picking up on the game in a short time.

I think there is a strong chance of it being either a template or at least a special kind of its kind. Not that this is new information, new information is kinda rare to come upon here.

Wasn't he playing poorly though?

[Synesthesy]

Wasn't he playing poorly though?

But he was learning quick.

I think that, if it has some kind of meaning (as stats and personality may or may not been that related), the MitD has a great INT score, a high CHA, and a low WIS.

Think about it: he understand how to play Go, he understand how the Ritual works better then a wizard mistic theurge, he understand goblinoid's politic in deep, and he was able to outsmart Redcloak when he protected the Order at Girad's gate. He is very smart.

[Mordaedil]

Wasn't he playing poorly though?

He was playing extremely defensive with weak prescence on the other ends of the board. Like he says in the comic, his core is well defended.

[Laze]

He was playing extremely defensive with weak prescence on the other ends of the board. Like he says in the comic, his core is well defended.

I wonder, who was winning in that game. From what I can tell O-Chull had more territory covered, right? Also O-Chull seems to be a very good player.

[Crusher]

I wonder, who was winning in that game. From what I can tell O-Chull had more territory covered, right? Also O-Chull seems to be a very good player.

That having been said, O-Chul may or may not be very smart. He's a multiclass Fighter/Paladin who has, imo, demonstrated good WIS but roughly average (give or take a little) INT. If I had to guess, I'd say his INT is 10-12 and his WIS is 12-16. If the MitD has a 16 INT, he might seem pretty darn intelligent to O-Chul.

[Riftwolf]

Just a thought (I wasn't present on the forums after the last time we saw MitD), has anyone given a ruling on number of limbs? I feel like MitD holding paint, brush and umbrella is meant to be a clue, but I'm not sure if the rules of the umbrella have previously clarified the monster isn't holding it (floating enchantment, or whatnot).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Just a thought (I wasn't present on the forums after the last time we saw MitD), has anyone given a ruling on number of limbs? I feel like MitD holding paint, brush and umbrella is meant to be a clue, but I'm not sure if the rules of the umbrella have previously clarified the monster isn't holding it (floating enchantment, or whatnot).

The umbrella can be held by the top of his head. The bucket could be hanging from the mid-section of the same limb that holds the brush - say, an elephant's trunk. It's be awkward as all Hel, and there are panels in which it doesn't quite work, IIRC, but ultimately, I don't think we can be 100% sure it requires him to have more than one limb.

Given the paucity of single-limb suggestions of any note, though, its more academical than anything else.

Grey Wolf

[VelociRapture12]

Is it possible that MitD, and his race has a connection to the Eastern pantheon's gods?
Barring that is it possible that he is a creature from some other version of the world? It opens up a lot more than DnD monsters and could explain a lot of the differences in abilities he can use.

[5a Violista]

Is it possible that MitD, and his race has a connection to the Eastern pantheon's gods?

You mean like monsters based on Greek myths? Yeah, sure, it's possible. There's nothing inherently disqualifying about being Greek-esque.

Is it necessarily based on a connection to the Eastern pantheon's gods?
No, not really. The MitD currently has as much connection to the Eastern pantheon as it does to the Snarl: that is, they all are plot-relevant in the same story.

Barring that is it possible that he is a creature from some other version of the world? It opens up a lot more than DnD monsters and could explain a lot of the differences in abilities he can use.

Yes, it's possible. Since the reveal that there's been an uncountable number of worlds so far (rather than just one other), added to the "astral plane" comment by the MitD makes me suspect that there's a nonzero chance he's come from another world/setting/game/etc.
In fact, some people have proposed non-DnD creatures in the past.

[VelociRapture12]

You mean like monsters based on Greek myths? Yeah, sure, it's possible. There's nothing inherently disqualifying about being Greek-esque.

Is it necessarily based on a connection to the Eastern pantheon's gods?
No, not really. The MitD currently has as much connection to the Eastern pantheon as it does to the Snarl: that is, they all are plot-relevant in the same story.

I was thinking something more along the lines of being directly related to the Pantheon. However what you bring up makes more sense then what I was thinking.

[Shining Wrath]

I've said this before; we know MitD is unusual for his species. At a minimum:

1. It was unusual for him to be in the jungle
2. It was unusual for him to speak Common
3. He is not yet a mature creature per Oona

On top of that:

1. His alignment seems to be "moving" so all alignment-based filters are dubious
2. He has or had a father but we don't know what happened to his father and he doesn't know what species his father was, meaning that he's never seen a depiction that matched his father
3. He doesn't understand his own capabilities - he couldn't hit Miko lightly, he can't reproduce the Escape, and so on

And we also know that he's of a species common enough that Xykon (not a scholar), Redcloak, and Oona recognized him. OTOH, O Chul was not able to certainly identify him even with the aid of learned scribes.

Knowing that he's unusual for an [X] we should anticipate that he may be unusual in additional ways not yet revealed.

Conclusion: rather than scouring the most obscure published 3.5 creatures, it's more likely that MitD is a not-obscure creature with one or more templates added.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And we also know that he's of a species common enough that Xykon (not a scholar) recognized him.

No, we do not know that.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

No, we do not know that.

Grey Wolf

I do think we can be fairly certain that he's of a species native to this world though, since there are at least some people who recognize him, and Redcloak and the SBGHs presumably aren't secretly refugees from another world themselves. That doesn't necessarily preclude him personally from having survived a previous world, if the gods got lazy and decided to repeat themselves after umpteen billion worlds, but his species at least seems to exist, somewhere.

[Hardcore]

The umbrella can be held by the top of his head. The bucket could be hanging from the mid-section of the same limb that holds the brush - say, an elephant's trunk. It's be awkward as all Hel, and there are panels in which it doesn't quite work, IIRC, but ultimately, I don't think we can be 100% sure it requires him to have more than one limb.

Given the paucity of single-limb suggestions of any note, though, its more academical than anything else.

Grey Wolf

When going outside in the rain I often hang a bag by the umbrella handle :-)

[monomer]

I was thinking something more along the lines of being directly related to the Pantheon. However what you bring up makes more sense then what I was thinking.

There was a short discussion about this on the previous page. Given that the Eastern Pantheon was obliterated millions of worlds ago, rather than just one as was previously assumed, it is highly unlikely that something directly associated with the Pantheon would have gone unnoticed for this long, especially considering that the Gods have been searching for anything with the Eastern Pantheon's quiddity this entire time.

A lesser monster that wasn't made using the green quiddity may be possible, though unlikely, but I haven't found anything in the Greek myths that is even a remotely good fit. Someone with more knowledge in this field may be able to uncover something, though.

[Hardcore]

It must be fun for RB: not only does he write the monster as being on a trip of coming to understand what he is, but so are we. We get more clues than the monster of course.

Unlike a previous poster (sorry for not looking up your name) I do not think the monster is changing alignment. It seems however that he is growing up, or like some with autism spectrum disorder, learning basic social truths. What friendship is, for example.
This, btw, would also be something a chaotic creature would have problems with i imagine. Like a protean perhaps?

[Hans of Frysia]

But are they good clues? I think you can make an argument they are not, unless you are framing the majority of clues in a "It is NOT this..." sort of way. But again, building in exceptions muddies the waters quite a bit, making the correct guess harder. Right now, we have 3 exceptions that have been pointed out to us in reference to MitD's species:

1) The species doesn't normally speak Common, but MitD does.

2) The species isn't native to a Jungle environment, but MitD was (or if not native, MitD wound up there somehow)

3) The species is normally big (however you want to define "big" in D&D terms), but MitD is much smaller.

I get the narrative purpose of these exceptions, and I'm not arguing they make guessing what MitD is impossible. I do think it makes arriving at the correct guess much more difficult, however. Also, I am saying that the existence of so many exceptions could undermine the belief that MitD "isn't something Rich made up." Again, a Colossal goldfish that lives in the desert and speaks Common is technically still a goldfish, but without highly specific clues pointing me in that direction I'd be hard pressed to guess it was a goldfish at all.

That all being said, I trust Rich to make the reveal as good as we expect it to be, and that he means it when he says MitD can be guessed. Any further exceptions might break that trust for me, personally, though.

I think the point Aboleth was trying to make was that the ‘exceptions to the rule’ characteristics of the MitD don’t quite mash with Rich’s assertion that it isn’t something he made up himself. However, while that is true if the exceptions are things Rich added for narrative purpose, it’s not true if the exceptions were already inserted by someone else. For example, if MitD is a dog, but Rich needs him to talk so he makes it a talking dog, the ‘it talks when it shouldn’t’ clue is not super helpful, because it can be applied to absolutely anything that doesn’t talk (talking dog invented by Rich = talking cat invented by Rich = talking banana invented by Rich etc.). However, if MitD is specifically Doug from the movie “Up” (I know, trademarks, but for the purpose of illustrating my point), the fact that he talks is exceptional but also indicative of his identity, and something Rich didn’t make up (someone else did).

I would also like to point out that the broader context of the clue ‘MitD is smaller than he should be’ nicely illustrates potential pitfalls in our thinking. Until comic 1037, I think most people took MitD fitting in the box, and his comment about his father being really big, to mean that MitD’s size was relatively small for his species (if I assume incorrectly here, apologies). However, it could also have been his father’s size that was the exception. To illustrate, if Rich wanted MitD to be Gamakichi (from “Naruto”), he’d be average frog size, but his father would be absolutely humongous.
It wasn’t until comic 1037 that we got confirmation that yes, it’s actually MitD who’s relatively small. I think this makes it a nice example of how we can be misinterpreting clues, and how essential information may still be forthcoming.

[Aposerofideas]

Just out of curiosity, how certain are we that MitD actually got V and O'Chul out of the tower? Is it possible that something else did it? That scene seems to consistently be a thorn in the side of a lot of theories I'm reading here. Rich is a tricksy guy, I wouldn't be surprised if there were some red herrings in the clues that we know. If something else got them out of the tower, what would that open up? Would it make anything more clear?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Just out of curiosity, how certain are we that MitD actually got V and O'Chul out of the tower?

Very. See Section 1a: Directly from Rich: Rich's Words on MitD: 3rd quote.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Just out of curiosity, how certain are we that MitD actually got V and O'Chul out of the tower? Is it possible that something else did it? That scene seems to consistently be a thorn in the side of a lot of theories I'm reading here. Rich is a tricksy guy, I wouldn't be surprised if there were some red herrings in the clues that we know. If something else got them out of the tower, what would that open up? Would it make anything more clear?

Thing is, the escape scene is a consistent thorn in the side because very little can explain it, and if we remove MitD from the equation, there is even less that makes sense, and it's an even bigger, thornier thorn.

Unless, of course, you have any theories on that front.

[Aposerofideas]

Very. See Section 1a: Directly from Rich: Rich's Words on MitD: 3rd quote.

Grey Wolf

That is pretty clear. There is a way to incorporate that though, MitD (unknowingly) summoned something else (which'd have to be pretty darn undetectable) that teleported the two of them out for MitD. So it was still something else that did it, but also not.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that just muddles it further. So this probably isn't the best track.

However, I stand by what I said about Rich and red herrings. When I get a chance I'm'a go looking for places to have placed them.

[thelivingmonkey]

That is pretty clear. There is a way to incorporate that though, MitD (unknowingly) summoned something else (which'd have to be pretty darn undetectable) that teleported the two of them out for MitD. So it was still something else that did it, but also not.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that just muddles it further. So this probably isn't the best track.

However, I stand by what I said about Rich and red herrings. When I get a chance I'm'a go looking for places to have placed them.

I think you are reaching quite a bit.

We could say "maybe MitD has a fairy godmother he never knew about who he called on in that moment and she used fairy magic to make the world a better place", or anything to explain what happened.

It is far more likely he produced a teleportation effect.

It could be a red herring, but you need some evidence for it being one other than "Rich is troll and it hard to find teleport munsters".

[Aposerofideas]

I think you are reaching quite a bit.

We could say "maybe MitD has a fairy godmother he never knew about who he called on in that moment and she used fairy magic to make the world a better place", or anything to explain what happened.

It is far more likely he produced a teleportation effect.

It could be a red herring, but you need some evidence for it being one other than "Rich is troll and it hard to find teleport munsters".

I meant in my last message more that you're right (it was a teleportation effect and this not the right track) and that I think there's a good possibility of a red herring in some of the other information we know somewhere. Not so much because Rich is a troll, but more because there's more than enough places for such a thing to be and Rich has put good effort into making this a difficult question to answer (and he's smart).

[thelivingmonkey]

I meant in my last message more that you're right (it was a teleportation effect and this not the right track) and that I think there's a good possibility of a red herring in some of the other information we know somewhere. Not so much because Rich is a troll, but more because there's more than enough places for such a thing to be and Rich has put good effort into making this a difficult question to answer (and he's smart).

Ah my mistake. Sorry for the misinterpretation, if you find anything, keep us posted!

[Bongos]

"This creature technically can't tel-a-pork two humans and not itself, but it got hit by dimension anchor so it can teleport two other creatures .

tel-a-pork?

Love it.

[Potatopeelerkin]

I meant in my last message more that you're right (it was a teleportation effect and this not the right track) and that I think there's a good possibility of a red herring in some of the other information we know somewhere. Not so much because Rich is a troll, but more because there's more than enough places for such a thing to be and Rich has put good effort into making this a difficult question to answer (and he's smart).

I don't think Rich is likely to slip anything that could be construed as contradicting the monster he's chosen. The last thing he wants is for his epic reveal to be ruined by hordes of people going "HANG ON, BUT #[PAGENUMBER] CONTRADICTED THAT." It'd be like "V-man" all over again. Even if it can be explained away by some obscure, ass-backwards explanation, it still wouldn't seem fair and probably wouldn't make sense to anyone who didn't read his subsequent explanation in the forums.

Part of coming up with something secret and clever to be revealed later is to make it difficult, but fair. The monster's likely to be something obscure (in fact Rich has said as much himself) and there won't be any overt hints, but I doubt he's going to throw something in the mix for the express purpose of confusing people, because that would ruin the game (and what benefit would you get from doing that, really?)