MitD XI: A good man

[Hans of Frysia]

Hey all, long-time OOTS reader and occasional forum participant here. I had some musings regarding the Escape scene, but unfortunately lack the required in-depth knowledge of D&D to know whether my directions of thought are remotely helpful. Nevertheless, I thought I'd post them, maybe they'll help jog someone's brain into a novel direction regarding MitD candidates.

First I wondered whether, rather than directly effecting the escape himself, the MitD could instead have indirectly caused the escape, for example by tapping into V's powers (although I don't think V has the ability to teleport at this point, and if he does he certainly doesn't have any prepared teleports left) or interceding with a deity on their behalf, or something similar. As I said, I don't know who/what/how this would be possible in D&D, but all efforts to explain the Escape scene that I can see have tried to do so by assigning teleport/wish/gate-like powers to the MitD itself (barring, admittedly, Snorlax's Metronome).

Second, it seems like O-Chul and V are sent pretty directly to Hinjo, rather than to the Azurite camp (comic 663). I'll admit that it's potentially simply 'Rule of Funny' that they land right on top of him when he's talking about unlikely coincidences, which would make it hard to definitively say that their Escape is targeted on him, and therefore maybe not a fruitful line of inquiry, but I don't know if it's been discussed yet (or whether it makes much difference either way).

Just my thoughts. Again, I don't know enough about D&D to know how (if at all) this could help, so if you feel reading this post was a waste of your time, I apologize.

[Kish]

Vaarsuvius can never teleport. They have Conjuration barred.

(Ganonron, an epic-level conjurer, could teleport.)

[Peelee]

Vaarsuvius can never teleport. They have Conjuration barred.

(Ganonron, an epic-level conjurer, could teleport.)

I understand exactly what you're saying, but unless Ganonron could have refused a spell that Vaarsuvius wanted to cast while spliced, then it's not a very meaningful distinction IMO.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I understand exactly what you're saying, but unless Ganonron could have refused a spell that Vaarsuvius wanted to cast while spliced, then it's not a very meaningful distinction IMO.

Ganonron was gone by the time of the Escape.

GW

[Peelee]

Ganonron was gone by the time of the Escape.

GW

As always, I am not a smart man.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think the Carbosilicate Amorph belongs on the FBS list because, despite its flaws, it does fit all of the big scenes to the “plausible” degree required (as well as most of the other entries fit, anyway) and actually has a potential explanation for getting around IP issues. Personally, as with ti’esar, I think it’s incredibly unlikely that Rich would choose to have MitD be an amorph, but it does still belong on the list. In addition, I’m not really sure what changes to the list’s criteria could be made that would exclude it, short of convincing explanations (hopefully made by people, unlike myself, who have actually read more of Schlock Mercenary than the first few hundred strips ) that the amorph is in no way ever a plausible fit.

[Throknor]

I don't understand how this option is seriously considered an option.



Clearly if our Good Man was carrying around a Teraport that whole teleport scene would have looked very different. This proposal does not explain Oona's reaction to her peek, or the reactions of anyone else who has seen him.

On the one hand, it could be described as ludicrous.

On the other hand, I've been enjoying that comic ever since he was proposed. So there's that.

[EmperorSarda]

The MitD being an Amorph also lacks an explanation for the earthquake when Haley and Belkar were escaping. Also the teraport being the reason for the teraport flies in the face of The Giant's explanation of the darkness monster finding or discovering hidden abilities about himself.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The MitD being an Amorph also lacks an explanation for the earthquake when Haley and Belkar were escaping. Also the teraport being the reason for the teraport flies in the face of The Giant's explanation of the darkness monster finding or discovering hidden abilities about himself.

The earthquake is not in the FBS requirements.

Being able to connect to the teraport tech is something that an amorphs would need to look deep into themselves to do - as indeed, Schlock did when interfacing with his new armour. The teraport in this context is the sci-fi equivalent of a massive pile of diamonds when it comes to a cleric casting resurrection. A necessary conduit for the power, but the direction and objective comes from the caster. So to an amorph using a teraport to get O-Chul out of the way, by discovering how to perform the interaction.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

The earthquake is not in the FBS requirements.

Being able to connect to the teraport tech is something that an amorphs would need to look deep into themselves to do - as indeed, Schlock did when interfacing with his new armour. The teraport in this context is the sci-fi equivalent of a massive pile of diamonds when it comes to a cleric casting resurrection. A necessary conduit for the power, but the direction and objective comes from the caster. So to an amorph using a teraport to get O-Chul out of the way, by discovering how to perform the interaction.

Grey Wolf

While I am content with the earthquake not being a Big Scene because earthquakes from stomping are a common media representation of high-strength characters, and we already have a scene that requires strength, I don't think "its not a big scene" is a legitimate dismissal of that point. Either EmperorSarda is mistaken and its strength is high enough to provide an explanation, or he isn't, in which case we need to consider that it also fails the tower scene. And if it doesn't fail that but still cant make the earthquake, well then I think we've found a reason to add the earthquake to the big scenes.


Either way, saying "its not a FBS" neither actually addresses the point nor educates anybody as to why its not important.

[Redgoblin]

I will stand by my first prediction (made many years ago). Put me down for Hephaestus.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

While I am content with the earthquake not being a Big Scene because earthquakes from stomping are a common media representation of high-strength characters, and we already have a scene that requires strength, I don't think "its not a big scene" is a legitimate dismissal of that point. Either EmperorSarda is mistaken and its strength is high enough to provide an explanation, or he isn't, in which case we need to consider that it also fails the tower scene. And if it doesn't fail that but still cant make the earthquake, well then I think we've found a reason to add the earthquake to the big scenes.


Either way, saying "its not a FBS" neither actually addresses the point nor educates anybody as to why its not important.

On the contrary. I am assuming that anyone participating here is reasonably well versed on the arguments already made in favour and against the suggestion. In the case of the amorph, that includes a link to a demonstration of his massive strength. If he is not, then I am not here to educate him further since that is what the first post is for. I am not your effing teacher and if you are too lazy to read my efforts, I am under no obligation to cater to your ignorance.

I choose to believe that he is instead suggesting that the amorph doesn’t have a good explanation for a scene that feels like it should be an FBS, in which case the appropriate answer is “it is not an FBS and therefore none of the candidates need one”. We can go into the same old conversation of why not, but that would be irrelevant to the amorph conversation.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

If we're updating the guess list, put me down for "Protean, because of the nice character-development resonances"

All right, I like that this theory has legs.

[ti'esar]

All right, I like that this theory has legs.

At least some of the time, anyway.

[Father Miles]

I have always favored the ANB. So my guesses are ANB > Protean > Snorlax.

i know we are looking for only 3 but my other theories are with White Slaad and General Ox.

[Mad Humanist]

#1 - Protean (or some variant of Protean) - 17.5
#2 - ANB - 9.4
#3 - Slaad - 6.0
#4 - Glabrezu - 2.8
#5 - Uvuudaum - 2.0

So Protean is by far the most popular answer. So when Oona peeked and recognised him was she completely mislead? Do Redcloak or Xykon or anyone in the comic actually have an idea what he is. Would Xykon have removed the darkness for the big reveal to reveal just a rabbit, sheep or wombat?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So Protean is by far the most popular answer. So when Oona peeked and recognised him was she completely mislead? Do Redcloak or Xykon or anyone in the comic actually have an idea what he is. Would Xykon have removed the darkness for the big reveal to reveal just a rabbit, sheep or wombat?

For the 100th time, a protean is not an unbridled shapechanger. A protean is always recognizable as a protean.

GW

[woweedd]

I will stand by my first prediction (made many years ago). Put me down for Hephaestus.

Isn't that literally impossible?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Isn't that literally impossible?

Hey, some people (me included) have picked three creatures. No matter what, at least two are impossible. Sure, the Hellenic gods are dead and even if one survived it wouldn’t be mind controllable and if it was it wouldn’t be able to cast wish, but hope springs eternal. I prefer that we judge not lest we be judged for what creatures we all pick

GW

[Crusher]

For the 100th time, a protean is not an unbridled shapechanger. A protean is always recognizable as a protean.

GW

A nitpick, but a protean is an unbridled shapechanger. If anything, that dramatically understates the situation, which is why its normally recognizable as a protean.

A normal shapechanger changes from a person to a rabbit to a left-handed smokeshifter. A protean turns half its body into a rabbit while simultaneously turning its other half into a person who has left-handed smokeshifters for arms and before that's even done half the rabbit starts turning into a fire hydrant and the person's head starts growing and turning into an elephant while one smokeshifter turns into a bicycle tire and the other one starts turning into a squid and on and on and on, never stopping.

Visually, its not so much a monster as a bad acid trip.

The only caveat being that it can concentrate and hold itself in a specific shape rather than constantly changing. Through intense concentration, it could turn itself into specific and then hold that shape for a bit. Probably not for an extended period of time (its a high DC check), but its at least possible it could look like something other than a Protean for a bit.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

A nitpick, but a protean is an unbridled shapechanger. If anything, that dramatically understates the situation, which is why its normally recognizable as a protean.

A normal shapechanger changes from a person to a rabbit to a left-handed smokeshifter. A protean turns half its body into a rabbit while simultaneously turning its other half into a person who has left-handed smokeshifters for arms and before that's even done half the rabbit starts turning into a fire hydrant and the person's head starts growing and turning into an elephant while one smokeshifter turns into a bicycle tire and the other one starts turning into a squid and on and on and on, never stopping.

Visually, its not so much a monster as a bad acid trip.

The only caveat being that it can concentrate and hold itself in a specific shape rather than constantly changing. Through intense concentration, it could turn itself into specific and then hold that shape for a bit. Probably not for an extended period of time (its a high DC check), but its at least possible it could look like something other than a Protean for a bit.

AFAICT, that's not what the fluff describes. It says that it is a everchanging mass of flesh, which occasionally sprouts bits and pieces of other creatures. Those bits and pieces allows it to duplicate certain powers of those creatures, but the way I read it, its bulk is still the everchanging flesh, as seen too in the pictures of proteans. It can be very small or quite large, and yes, it can hold on to this or that bit for a while it it concentrates, but the creature itself never looks like a rabbit. It looks like a mass of flesh with rabbit feet, rabbit ears and the left arm of a smokeshifter (whatever one of those is), all three possibly sprouting out of its right side.

Now, could it duplicate an actual shapeshifter's extraordinary ability to shift and then fully change into the shape of a rabbit? I think technically it can (assuming there is such a thing as a shapeshifter with an Ex shapeshifting ability), but that would be a rare occasion indeed, and even more so for any extended period of time.

(Also, I think we may be using different definitions of unbridled - I wasn't aware it also could mean "uncontrolled". I thought it only meant "without limitation". Fair enough, I need to find a better word to use when I mean "it can't simply change its full shape without caveats")

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

AFAICT, that's not what the fluff describes. It says that it is a everchanging mass of flesh, which occasionally sprouts bits and pieces of other creatures. Those bits and pieces allows it to duplicate certain powers of those creatures, but the way I read it, its bulk is still the everchanging flesh, as seen too in the pictures of proteans. It can be very small or quite large, and yes, it can hold on to this or that bit for a while it it concentrates, but the creature itself never looks like a rabbit. It looks like a mass of flesh with rabbit feet, rabbit ears and the left arm of a smokeshifter (whatever one of those is), all three possibly sprouting out of its right side.

Now, could it duplicate an actual shapeshifter's extraordinary ability to shift and then fully change into the shape of a rabbit? I think technically it can (assuming there is such a thing as a shapeshifter with an Ex shapeshifting ability), but that would be a rare occasion indeed, and even more so for any extended period of time.

(Also, I think we may be using different definitions of unbridled - I wasn't aware it also could mean "uncontrolled". I thought it only meant "without limitation". Fair enough, I need to find a better word to use when I mean "it can't simply change its full shape without caveats")

Grey Wolf

My read on the fluff is that it is made up of nothing but parts of other creatures, there isn't a core body-blob-thing that is the creature's unique body with other bits attached to it. I don't think theres mechanically anything that would specifically prevent it from attempting to hold the shape of a rabbit, at least for a very short period of time, they just don't do that because its a lot of effort for no particular reason.

This is of course the major problem I have with the protean: what little we have seen of the MITD's form is simply too consistent. Even if it wanted to hold that form for whatever reason, it shouldn't be able to, not for this long.

[Crusher]

AFAICT, that's not what the fluff describes. It says that it is a everchanging mass of flesh, which occasionally sprouts bits and pieces of other creatures. Those bits and pieces allows it to duplicate certain powers of those creatures, but the way I read it, its bulk is still the everchanging flesh, as seen too in the pictures of proteans. It can be very small or quite large, and yes, it can hold on to this or that bit for a while it it concentrates, but the creature itself never looks like a rabbit. It looks like a mass of flesh with rabbit feet, rabbit ears and the left arm of a smokeshifter (whatever one of those is), all three possibly sprouting out of its right side.

Now, could it duplicate an actual shapeshifter's extraordinary ability to shift and then fully change into the shape of a rabbit? I think technically it can (assuming there is such a thing as a shapeshifter with an Ex shapeshifting ability), but that would be a rare occasion indeed, and even more so for any extended period of time.

(Also, I think we may be using different definitions of unbridled - I wasn't aware it also could mean "uncontrolled". I thought it only meant "without limitation". Fair enough, I need to find a better word to use when I mean "it can't simply change its shape without caveats")

Grey Wolf

I agree, and I think any disagreement barely extends beyond semantics.

Also, I agree with your comment on predictions. My gut is *still* telling me that the MitD is a Prismasaurus, and my brain has been overriding it for years, which makes it hard to be confident proclaiming that the MitD is *not* anything in particular. Needless to say, that doesn't extend to the FBS list, because that works on a different system.

[Crusher]

Hey all, long-time OOTS reader and occasional forum participant here. I had some musings regarding the Escape scene, but unfortunately lack the required in-depth knowledge of D&D to know whether my directions of thought are remotely helpful. Nevertheless, I thought I'd post them, maybe they'll help jog someone's brain into a novel direction regarding MitD candidates.

First I wondered whether, rather than directly effecting the escape himself, the MitD could instead have indirectly caused the escape, for example by tapping into V's powers (although I don't think V has the ability to teleport at this point, and if he does he certainly doesn't have any prepared teleports left) or interceding with a deity on their behalf, or something similar. As I said, I don't know who/what/how this would be possible in D&D, but all efforts to explain the Escape scene that I can see have tried to do so by assigning teleport/wish/gate-like powers to the MitD itself (barring, admittedly, Snorlax's Metronome).

Second, it seems like O-Chul and V are sent pretty directly to Hinjo, rather than to the Azurite camp (comic 663). I'll admit that it's potentially simply 'Rule of Funny' that they land right on top of him when he's talking about unlikely coincidences, which would make it hard to definitively say that their Escape is targeted on him, and therefore maybe not a fruitful line of inquiry, but I don't know if it's been discussed yet (or whether it makes much difference either way).

Just my thoughts. Again, I don't know enough about D&D to know how (if at all) this could help, so if you feel reading this post was a waste of your time, I apologize.

I just wanted to come back and note that I appreciated this post. Both observations (could MitD somehow be empowering someone else and that the teleport might have been directly targeted on Hinjo) are interesting ways of thinking of the issue that haven't been beaten to death a zillion times. They haven't sparked an idea for me (or anyone else, afaik), but it certainly might have.

Plus, you tossed out the idea and then patiently let people take the idea wherever seemed appropriate (which could easily be nowhere), rather than haranguing people for failing to engage the idea with sufficient enthusiasm (which happens surprisingly often and is really annoying). Anyway, I just thought some positive feedback was warranted.

[Ruck]

At least some of the time, anyway.

Well, I walked into that one. Something I think MitD can also do some of the time.

[MysteryMeme]

Recent events (MiTD + the Monster Hollow) lead me to believe that MiTD can fly. He's able to put an X on several of the doors without leaving any visible footprints. Furthermore, a lot of the guesses given in this thread seem like they would leave non-humanoid looking footprints if they walked through the snow, which he seems to when exiting the door they actually used.

MiTD being able to jump due to his strength or something else is also possible, but that's my thought.

And now that I think about it, MiTD is consistently shown being able to keep the umbrella above him without actually grasping the umbrella, so maybe something telekinetic is in play, rather than it being hand-waved to allow a big reveal later. And he's able to do the same thing with the bucket of paint, presumably while still holding the brush and the umbrella.

[Hans of Frysia]

I just wanted to come back and note that I appreciated this post. Both observations (could MitD somehow be empowering someone else and that the teleport might have been directly targeted on Hinjo) are interesting ways of thinking of the issue that haven't been beaten to death a zillion times. They haven't sparked an idea for me (or anyone else, afaik), but it certainly might have.

Plus, you tossed out the idea and then patiently let people take the idea wherever seemed appropriate (which could easily be nowhere), rather than haranguing people for failing to engage the idea with sufficient enthusiasm (which happens surprisingly often and is really annoying). Anyway, I just thought some positive feedback was warranted.

Thanks man, that's nice of you. It's refreshing to see such a positive and appreciative vibe on a forum (although I spend a lot of time on Hearthstone forums, so my perception is probably skewed). I'm content to let people run with the ideas as they choose, as my own guesses (or rather, evaluations of the guesses posted here) tend to be based more on storytelling and what would make a satisfying narrative, rather than the empirical and rational focus of the thread, which Grey Wolf maintains so excellently. I enjoy seeing the conclusions that those with more suitable minds reach here by concensus, an admirable job all round. Keep up the good work guys!

[Darth Paul]

Visually, its not so much a monster as a bad acid trip.

That... would explain the audience reactions in the circus scene...

But my reasons for not buying this as MitD's identity stand. The consistent depiction of height, consistent depiction of eyes, to me it would be a cheat to reveal that all along those were just a cover for a constant changing mass of flesh which has no reason to hold that form, and is actually seen sleeping in that form. How do you make a Concentration DC to hold your form in your sleep?

So, not to criticize anyone else's choice, just explaining why I don't see it.

[Peelee]

That... would explain the audience reactions in the circus scene...

But my reasons for not buying this as MitD's identity stand. The consistent depiction of height, consistent depiction of eyes, to me it would be a cheat to reveal that all along those were just a cover for a constant changing mass of flesh which has no reason to hold that form, and is actually seen sleeping in that form. How do you make a Concentration DC to hold your form in your sleep?

So, not to criticize anyone else's choice, just explaining why I don't see it.

Statistically, most creatures have two eyes and teeth. Who's to say that the MitD doesn't change its form to have multiple eyes in one of the many, many times the camera isn't on him?

That's not the best argument, I'll readily admit, but not the worst either.

[Ruck]

My argument basically comes down to artistic license, looking at it from the other end. If we assume the MITD is a Protean, how would Rich draw him?

Given that

1)Rich started drawing the MITD before he knew what species he was;
2)Rich wants to keep the MITD's species a secret until the dramatic reveal near the end of the book;
3)Rich chose the MITD's species for storytelling purposes;

I think Rich would continue to draw the MITD consistently with the manner he had before, because changing the art would give away the game. I also think that he would not let that potential art inconsistency get in the way of the story he wanted to tell. (In other words, I think if he thought Protean was best for the story, he would not decide that he can't use it because the artwork had been inconsistent with how a Protean might be depicted.)

There's also the fact that none of the suggestions we've come up with are perfect fits, so you have to fudge something somewhere. I think this is the most minor fudge, and so with that in addition to why I think the Protean is best for storytelling purposes, it gets my vote. (Mechanically, I think the Athasian Nightmare Beast is the only one that comes close to the Protean for fit, but "wasn't actually released when Rich decided, but he knew about it in advance" is a significantly bigger fudge for me than "eyes shouldn't be consistently placed.")

EDIT: And if you really need a mechanical explanation, Peelee's isn't too bad, when you consider how strongly aware many characters in OOTS seem to be of the fourth wall. It's possible MITD makes a point to present in a two-eyed form when the "camera" is on him.