MitD XI: A good man

[b_jonas]

and is quite a bit more perceptive then Xylon, if he were there, he would have put the pieces together.

Do not underestimate Xykon's wisdom. He is more an even match to Redcloak than anyone likes, although he has his moments when he has to look like an idiot to balance it out, and does sometimes deliberately pretend to be stupid to confuse people. And don't misspell his name, that's his pet peeve and he may murder you in cold blood if he finds out you did so. His name is Xykon.

[woweedd]

Do not underestimate Xykon's wisdom. He is more an even match to Redcloak than anyone likes, although he has his moments when he has to look like an idiot to balance it out, and does sometimes deliberately pretend to be stupid to confuse people. And don't misspell his name, that's his pet peeve and he may murder you in cold blood if he finds out you did so. His name is Xykon.

I'm not disputing his Intelligence, i'm disputing his Wisdom. He's dangerously smart and cunning, in his own twisted way, but he's also immature, petty, and not so much unable to think ahead as unwilling to. That is what Low Wisdom looks like. Plus, even if he had high Wisdom, Red would probably be higher. At his level, his Wisdom is most likely superhuman(oid). While i'd guess Xykon has above-average Wisdom, i'd say it's his lowest mental stat. Conversely, i'd say the same about Reddy's Intelligence.

[3Power]

First, size can’t be safely ignored. RC lifted up MitD (while in a box) by himself to put him in a wagon.

Oh really? Too bad the ha-naga isn't permanently flying or anything. And yes, ms. bugbear beastmaster gave us a big hint that he's supposed to be bigger than he is. Ignore it at your own demerit.

Beyond that, it was not arbitrarily selected by GW. It was voted on by the contributors to the active thread at the time and they collectively decided it was a valid criteria. Because otherwise its a slippery slope. 27 is only a little below 30. So shouldn’t 27 be ok? But then 24 is only a little below 27, so shouldn’t it be ok? What about 20? 18? 8? Clearly a line must be drawn somewhere, and the consensus was 30, so its 30.

So you decided on an arbitrary number and then decided it must be right because you decided on it.

There are 6 members to the order. The last two are as far from the caster as V and O-Chul are from MitD. If in OotS the teleport can reach any target within a certain distance, whether they are touching the caster or not, MitD could teleport them out from his cage.

The order members are within touching distance of each other all the way to the wizard. Neither V or O-chu are within touching distance of the monster.

No, I can prove that he can't raise dead, and I have. Therefore, creatures with access to Raise Dead can't be MitD.

Your "proof" has been invalidated by logic.

There is a difference between "base species is large, but MitD is medium", which would indicate he is about adolescent for his species (and thus almost as strong as a full-grown individual), versus "base species is gargantuan, but MitD is medium", which would indicate he is toddler-sized, with the significant reduction of strength that would imply.

Except in oots world "only dragons have drawn up stats for their children." Regardless, we know MitD is supposed to be bigger than he is, so that argument applies to every single creature.

The fact that it belongs to the "aberration" group doesn't make it aberrant in looks. It still looks like a snake. And snakes, face or not, are not vomit inducing.

Your personal opinion has been noted. It bears no relevance on the reaction of npc #5, which differed from everyone else in the audience.

No, it has not. RC knows exactly what MitD's species is, as per SoD

Knowledge of a creature's name does not equal knowledge of all its abilities. Source: Every single D&D book with a chart of what various knowledge checks let you know about the listed creature.

Ah, yes, the "if only you would ignore all the evidence that makes my creature a poor fit, then it is a great fit" defence.

Since you apparently need a wake-up call... No one creature will fit every criteria you've come up. As such, it's necessary to take a step back and re-evaluate what actually constitutes as evidence, and what can be safely ignored. I'm ignoring gag scenes and traits we've been shown we can ignore. You're ignoring all the mechanics behind teleportation.

Honestly, do yourself a favor and just compile a list of creatures that can use wish or miracle. Allowing these creative interpretations of teleport, plane shift, et al is just needlessly bloating the list. Teleport transfers self and others, teleport doesn't work across the room, teleport requires familiarity with the destination. Etc etc etc.

[woweedd]

Oh really? Too bad the ha-naga isn't permanently flying or anything. And yes, ms. bugbear beastmaster gave us a big hint that he's supposed to be bigger than he is. Ignore it at your own demerit.

So you decided on an arbitrary number and then decided it must be right because you decided on it.

The order members are within touching distance of each other all the way to the wizard. Neither V or O-chu are within touching distance of the monster.

Your "proof" has been invalidated by logic.

Except in oots world "only dragons have drawn up stats for their children." Regardless, we know MitD is supposed to be bigger than he is, so that argument applies to every single creature.

Your personal opinion has been noted. It bears no relevance on the reaction of npc #5, which differed from everyone else in the audience.

Knowledge of a creature's name does not equal knowledge of all its abilities. Source: Every single D&D book with a chart of what various knowledge checks let you know about the listed creature.

Since you apparently need a wake-up call... No one creature will fit every criteria you've come up. As such, it's necessary to take a step back and re-evaluate what actually constitutes as evidence, and what can be safely ignored. I'm ignoring gag scenes and traits we've been shown we can ignore. You're ignoring all the mechanics behind teleportation.

Honestly, do yourself a favor and just compile a list of creatures that can use wish or miracle. Allowing these creative interpretations of teleport, plane shift, et al is just needlessly bloating the list. Teleport transfers self and others, teleport doesn't work across the room, teleport requires familiarity with the destination. Etc etc etc.

OK, I don't think you get it dude. Firstly, the size cannot be ignored. We know he's smaller then he's supposed to be, but the ha-naga isn't even that strong to begin with. A version of it of approiate size to fit in the box would have a massive Strength penalty. Going from Colassal to Large would make it have a Strength of 21. That's lower than Roy! Certainly not enough to punch Miko through a wall when trying to hit lightest. Redcloak doesn't just know the name, he has access to D&D sourcebooks, and he's presumably studied up on the MITD. As for it being terrifying...It's a snake with a human face. Obviously scary, but not an indescribable "it". Short version: It can only meet 2 out of three, and that's generous.

[MartianInvader]

I'm not disputing his Intelligence, i'm disputing his Wisdom. He's dangerously smart and cunning, in his own twisted way, but he's also immature, petty, and not so much unable to think ahead as unwilling to. That is what Low Wisdom looks like. Plus, even if he had high Wisdom, Red would probably be higher. At his level, his Wisdom is most likely superhuman(oid). While i'd guess Xykon has above-average Wisdom, i'd say it's his lowest mental stat. Conversely, i'd say the same about Reddy's Intelligence.

Huh. I've always believed the reverse about Xykon - low intelligence, high wisdom. He gets bored quickly and never really *learns* much of anything. But he is insightful - see his speeches on power, coffee, and a few others. When you keep in mind that in almost every combat we've seen he's basically in no danger, he never really behaves counter to common sense (in that his boredom is as big a threat as his enemies).

[LadyEowyn]

I agree with the recommendation that it would be helpful to have a list of all D&D creatures who can cast Wish or Miracle, as it's by far the most straightforward explanation for the Escape scene. That provides a reasonably restricted list as a starting point for those of us who favour that explanation.

[Throknor]

I agree with the recommendation that it would be helpful to have a list of all D&D creatures who can cast Wish or Miracle, as it's by far the most straightforward explanation for the Escape scene. That provides a reasonably restricted list as a starting point for those of us who favour that explanation.

I doubt anyone thinks that would be a bad thing to have. But in 500+ pages of posts no one seems to be able to get the gumption to actually make it.

[Peelee]

ha-naga stuff

This is kind of an odd hill to die on.

[Quartz]

I agree with the recommendation that it would be helpful to have a list of all D&D creatures who can cast Wish or Miracle, as it's by far the most straightforward explanation for the Escape scene.

I disagree. Psychoportation is another distinct possible. And is an ability of the Athasian Nightmare Beast.

[Crusher]

I doubt anyone thinks that would be a bad thing to have. But in 500+ pages of posts no one seems to be able to get the gumption to actually make it.

I feel like someone did make such a list about 2 threads ago, but now I can’t find it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I feel like someone did make such a list about 2 threads ago, but now I can’t find it.

I don't think we have had that specific subtype before. I mean, we've had lists of monsters before, but I remain skeptical that a list of "all creatures with access to wish" can even be compiled. You, after all, are my standard proof that there is always more creatures to discover.

Grey Wolf

[Crusher]

This is kind of an odd hill to die on.

Eh, you’ve been around a long time. You know people like this pop up 2-3 times per thread, and if anything we’ve been a bit behind schedule. By the standards of the past, 3Power has been a model of restraint and decorum. Though, of course, we aren’t done yet.

[Crusher]

I don't think we have had that specific subtype before. I mean, we've had lists of monsters before, but I remain skeptical that a list of "all creatures with access to wish" can even be compiled. You, after all, are my standard proof that there is always more creatures to discover.

Grey Wolf

The funny thing is that I secretly suspect I was the one who assembled the list and am embarrassed because I’ve forgotten.

Edit - It came to me. I did make the list, but it was merely a list of all the PROPOSED creatures capable of casting Wish or Miracle, which is a far cry from EVERYTHING.

[woweedd]

Eh, you’ve been around a long time. You know people like this pop up 2-3 times per thread, and if anything we’ve been a bit behind schedule. By the standards of the past, 3Power has been a model of restraint and decorum. Though, of course, we aren’t done yet.

Do I need to remind anyone of the Psammead? Count your blessings.

[lothos]

Regarding monsters who can use wish.

I doubt anyone thinks that would be a bad thing to have. But in 500+ pages of posts no one seems to be able to get the gumption to actually make it.

Back in the 2nd or 3rd thread, I made a spreadsheet for myself of every monster in MM1 through MM3 that could cast spells as a sorcerer level 18+, cleric 17+ or wizard 17+. I couldn't find anything with levels in favoured soul.

With a strong preference for Sorcerer I then looked at each monster. Dread Linnorm came from that... Though that has other issues.

I was all but ruling out cleric based on no "animate dead" and the general lack of wisdom that MITD demonstrates. I didn't favour wizard (or cleric) as MITD didn't seem like he would prepare spells and then forget he had prepared them.

I'll see if I can find that spreadsheet off my old laptop and post what I did back then here. I didn't do MM4 or later because they came out after strip 100 was published. Of course there's lots of other sourcebooks to cover, but perhaps what I had will be a good start.

Note that I didn't look for wish as an SLA. That was largely because back then I didn't really understand what an SLA was (I've never actually played 2nd ed, 3rd ed, 3.5 ed, 4th ed or 5th ed D&D, only 1st ed. I understand how they work now.

Also I didn't look for high level Psion or similar that might cast whatever the psionoc version of wish is (reality revision ?).

Finally, I'd like to suggest that Psionic Teleport is just as good a fit as Wish/Miracle. Unlike the 5th and 7th level Sorcerer/Wizard spells, the Psionic powers do not need the caster to go along for the ride. That's what lead me to propose the Psionic version of the illithid elder brain. Indeed that specifically has Psionic Teleport listed as a power in the example creature.

If only I could finally propose something one day with the right number of eyes... Wait, I know... Tarrasque ! :-)

[b_jonas]

If only I could finally propose something one day with the right number of eyes... Wait, I know... Tarrasque ! :-)

Yeah. That's when I got desperate and I mentioned Toldi (from the Arany János cycle of epic poems) at some point. Right number of eyes, eats a lot and sleeps. Exactly the right personality to have the MitD's strange actions, keeps motivated only when he has to save someone in trouble. Strength is usually as plot requires, but to the best I can tell, he's only as strong as Roy, when he does his most impressive stunts like holding the rope or knocking out Belkar in one hit, and so he could get out of the box any time he really wants. Combat stats also good enough that he could be the scariest thing in Dorukan's Dungeon in the half-destroyed state when Xykon returns, has some practice fighting monsters as well as humans later, can ignore Belkar or Miko's hits and show them who's boss. But he's very likely not strong enough to hit Miko and his horse through the wall and make the hole, and the circus scene is impossible to explain. But the biggest problem with the long list of such candidates is that the teleportation in the escape scene is really hard to explain. Toldi would want to save his friends from Xykon's anger, and he might be able to pull it off, but it's really hard to explain how he could send them more than a hundred miles away so quickly. Teleportation is hard, and most candidates fail either there, or are teleporters but not good in strength like Ygramul. It's hard to come up with really good candidates.

[Darth Paul]

Teleportation is hard, and most candidates fail either there, or are teleporters but not good in strength like Ygramul. It's hard to come up with really good candidates.

Note Quartz's post above regarding psychoportation and the ANB. It's one of the things that got the Nightmare Beast my vote. (After much reconsideration on the slaad, admittedly. They're still my second choice, but I have to say the big frog isn't much of a fit for the circus scene.)

[Peelee]

Eh, you’ve been around a long time. You know people like this pop up 2-3 times per thread, and if anything we’ve been a bit behind schedule. By the standards of the past, 3Power has been a model of restraint and decorum. Though, of course, we aren’t done yet.

True. It's either been fortunately long since the last one, or just up and forgot. There's a 50/50 chance there, really.

The funny thing is that I secretly suspect I was the one who assembled the list and am embarrassed because I’ve forgotten.

Edit - It came to me. I did make the list, but it was merely a list of all the PROPOSED creatures capable of casting Wish or Miracle, which is a far cry from EVERYTHING.

You have brought shame upon your ancestors, and their ancestors, and their ancestors. It may have even reached my ancestors at some point. It was just that much shame.

[Crusher]

You have brought shame upon your ancestors, and their ancestors, and their ancestors. It may have even reached my ancestors at some point. It was just that much shame.

If you're going to do something, go big! I suppose that may as well include shame. :p

[Darth Paul]

If you're going to do something, go big! I suppose that may as well include shame. :p

Be proud of that shame! Shame is nothing to be ashamed of!! Be thou not ashamed of thy shame, Crusher! Crush the shame out of thy shame!!!!!

[Calavera]

I don't read this thread other than occasionally skimming the first few posts to see if anything has changed, but I'm going to put my vote in for Zeus, or possibly another Eastern god: The rulebreaking aspects of it don't bother me that much as Rich's fuzzy 3.5 would allow multiple ways to introduce mind contol to a god etc. I am almost certain whatever MitD is, that it will not be something that leaves non-GitP forumites going "Huh, wazzat?" I expect this post is a retread you've seen a million times but I don't read the main part of the thread, so sorry.

[Keltest]

I don't read this thread other than occasionally skimming the first few posts to see if anything has changed, but I'm going to put my vote in for Zeus, or possibly another Eastern god: The rulebreaking aspects of it don't bother me that much as Rich's fuzzy 3.5 would allow multiple ways to introduce mind contol to a god etc. I am almost certain whatever MitD is, that it will not be something that leaves non-GitP forumites going "Huh, wazzat?" I expect this post is a retread you've seen a million times but I don't read the main part of the thread, so sorry.

I'm rather curious as to how you believe Zeus fits the scene with the Stereotypical Big Game Hunters in Start of Darkness.

[Calavera]

I'm rather curious as to how you believe Zeus fits the scene with the Stereotypical Big Game Hunters in Start of Darkness.

Zeus can change into anything, (and often does to seduce women in weird guises), I would guess the infirm MitD-Z would not have much control over what he looks like at that point. I'm not really looking to argue though, you guys have got this down to a fine art and I can't compete. I just wanted to register my vote as post #7 of this thread said it's getting real and time for people to vote. I just don't think it's going to be anything 99% of readers have never heard of.

[Crusher]

I don't read this thread other than occasionally skimming the first few posts to see if anything has changed, but I'm going to put my vote in for Zeus, or possibly another Eastern god: The rulebreaking aspects of it don't bother me that much as Rich's fuzzy 3.5 would allow multiple ways to introduce mind contol to a god etc. I am almost certain whatever MitD is, that it will not be something that leaves non-GitP forumites going "Huh, wazzat?" I expect this post is a retread you've seen a million times but I don't read the main part of the thread, so sorry.

Certainly!

[KorvinStarmast]

Be proud of that shame! Shame is nothing to be ashamed of!! Be thou not ashamed of thy shame, Crusher! Crush the shame out of thy shame!!!!!

Best post in the thread.

About teleportation and 'having to be familiar with location' there are some ways to teleport to somewhere other than the intended destination, however upon reading again the rules on 3.5e teleport, MiTD not going along leaves me agreeing that it wasn't that spell, but something else.

The bit of miracle that seems to fit is: Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects.

The destination could be "next to V's friend" since MiTD has seen Durkon, Elan, and Haley on TV in Book 1, at various times, to include his intimate moments with Hilgya.

To have V and O'Chul teleport or Escape to {wherever V's friends are} or even {wherever O'Chul's friends are} looks to be "in line with a teleport's effects" or even better. I'd say it's within Miracle's realm of the possible.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

MiTD not going along leaves me agreeing that it wasn't that spell, but something else.

Reminder that the standard explanation for why MitD didn't go along if he did use teleport is that he would have been hit by the Dimensional Anchor spell V cast that missed Xykon.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

The destination could be "next to V's friend" since MiTD has seen Durkon, Elan, and Haley on TV in Book 1, at various times, to include his intimate moments with Hilgya.

I think it's more likely "Send my friend Mr. Stiffly and his friend the elf to wherever Mr. Stiffly's friends are." Perhaps just nitpicking, but since I do think that description of the effect MITD was trying to achieve explains the destination, might as well try to get the details right.

[KorvinStarmast]

Reminder that the standard explanation for why MitD didn't go along if it did use teleport is that he would have beem hit by the Dimensional Anchor spell V cast that missed Xykon.

OK, will go back and check the strips.
(EDIT: OK, got it, had to think through the perspective/directions to see what you were getting at).

@Ruck: works for me, and makes better sense.

[Crusher]

Be proud of that shame! Shame is nothing to be ashamed of!! Be thou not ashamed of thy shame, Crusher! Crush the shame out of thy shame!!!!!

Good point. Ummm...

Ok.

I’m ashamed of my shame at my shame. Going forward, I will be proud of my shame of my shame at my shame, and I will do my best to shame those who shame or have shame over shame at shame, so as to help them be proud of their shameless shame shame.

[Peelee]

Good point. Ummm...

Ok.

I’m ashamed of my shame at my shame. Going forward, I will be proud of my shame of my shame at my shame, and I will do my best to shame those who shame or have shame over shame at shame, so as to help them be proud of their shameless shame shame.

You've made me proud.