MitD XI: A good man

[b_jonas]

You know, that last strip (1139) made me think that maybe the MitD is a refugee from the last world, via the astral plane. So maybe he could be a monster from an older edition?

I still don't think the MitD has ever been to the Astral Plane, because of reasons you'll find if you search my earlier posts and that I won't keep reiterating becuse it's futile to convince everyone else. But I'd like to note that I have proposed one creature that was exiled from the previous world. He's not a very good choice for the MitD, but was still interesting enough to talk about. And I don't think we need the Astral Plane itself for that, just a pocket plane for him in which he was exiled.

[Sloanzilla]

Has anyone ever guessed that the MitD is a polymorphed Serini (who somehow went senile for a bit)? Guess that would not answer the "what is she polymorphed into?" question though.

[Peelee]

Has anyone ever guessed that the MitD is a polymorphed Serini (who somehow went senile for a bit)? Guess that would not answer the "what is she polymorphed into?" question though.

That would open up significantly more questions than it would answer. Which, to be fair, wouldn't be hard, since it would answer zero, but still.

[Sloanzilla]

Well, to be fair, there is very little that an epic rogue with UMD maxed can't do.

[Emanick]

That would open up significantly more questions than it would answer. Which, to be fair, wouldn't be hard, since it would answer zero, but still.

It would answer one: who he was.

[woweedd]

Well, to be fair, there is very little that an epic rogue with UMD maxed can't do.

Why would she have all those on her?

[Kish]

And how would she be using them, using a trained skill, to accomplish all manner of feats that go with neither "halfling" nor with "rogue," without knowing what she was doing?

[b_jonas]

Has anyone ever guessed that the MitD is a polymorphed Serini (who somehow went senile for a bit)?

Yes. Manty5 guessed exactly that in 2018-03, and before that, ThatNickGuy guessed in 2018-02 that the MitD was Serini, though not specifically that he is polymorphed. Sloanzilla: I recommend that you read the discussion after those if you are seriously interested in that idea.

Grey_wolf_c: that's definitely at least three times the idea was proposed, so do you suppose it's worth to mention in somewhere in the first post as proposed, or are you going to just dismiss it because it doesn't answer the question of what species the MitD is? You can try to argue that it doesn't answer any of the Big Scenes, but wait a moment. Sloanzilla at least says it would give the MitD epic Rogue class levels, which could help explain why he's tougher than typical monsters and I'd add that he could automatically dodge some weapon attacks with his Improved Evasion with high reflex save bonus; Manty5 points out that Serini has high Charisma, and he would keep that after polymorphing, and there are good arguments for why a high Charisma score is a small bonus for an MitD candidate; and while Onyavar never proposed that Serini is the MitD, he mentioned that Serini would know which door leads to the Gate and could paint a red X on that door, and that would explain why the MitD would paint a red X on some doors if he was actually secretly Serini. So while I don't think that the MitD being Serini is a good proposal, it's definitely a serious proposal made in good faith that you should try to list.

Back to Sloanzilla: there were also some theories connecting the MitD and Serini in some less direct way: that the MitD is the key to Serini's gate (which IMO is the most easy to support variant of this argument, but it doesn't really explain how the MitD did any of the Big Scenes); or even that the Dark One's Ritual has already been cast and now Serini's gate is affixed to the MitD who's constantly carrying it with him (seems quite unlikely, but I'd like to mention that if you argue from Redcloak's description of the Ritual, then you can't fail to notice that the Ritual works like Plane Shift spell, it can only move the gate to another plane, not to a target location in the material plane); or that the MitD is an Awakened animal and Serini cast the Awaken (so Awaken gives the MitD +2 HD and +1d3 charisma, which would normally help, but now you have to choose an animal as a base creature, which restricts your candidates to pretty weak ones and template stack jokes); or that Serini knows the MitD or his dad from when he sought out the most powerful monsters because the MitD is powerful (ok, good, nice prediction with consequences for the seventh book, but that doesn't explain anything we've seen of the MitD yet); the popular proposal that also that the MitD's dad or someone else from his species is the endboss in Serini's dungeon (same, doesn't help us explain anything we've seen); that the MitD barely remembers his dad because Serini captured his dad when he collected strong monsters (that's at least a stab towards trying to explain something we already know about the MitD); and I think there's more but I'll post this before researching the rest.

[Ruck]

It's pretty implausible to begin with, but Serini being the MitD makes no sense with the events of Start of Darkness, unless she got some Odin-like prophecy to polymorph herself:

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

Specifically, to polymorph into whatever species the MitD is-- a question which "polymorphed Serini" still doesn't answer, BTW-- and wait in the forest to be trapped by a couple of hunters.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Grey_wolf_c: that's definitely at least three times the idea was proposed, so do you suppose it's worth to mention in somewhere in the first post as proposed, or are you going to just dismiss it because it doesn't answer the question of what species the MitD is?

Yeah, it's not a species. I could add a note to the 2d entry covering epic thief with UMD. I find such speculation barren, though, because it does nothing to answer the question of "what is MitD's species", yes.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

Yeah, it's not a species. I could add a note to the 2d entry covering epic thief with UMD. I find such speculation barren, though, because it does nothing to answer the question of "what is MitD's species", yes.

Grey Wolf

I mean, it you want to get super technical (which, this being the GITP forum, we are almost required to do), it does: the MITD's species is halfling in this scenario.

It of course doesn't answer it in any practical sense, and just transfers the question to "what was Serini polymorphed into?", but it is technically an answer.

[Sloanzilla]

Yes. Manty5 guessed exactly that in 2018-03, and before that, ThatNickGuy guessed in 2018-02 that the MitD was Serini, though not specifically that he is polymorphed. Sloanzilla: I recommend that you read the discussion after those if you are seriously interested in that idea.

Grey_wolf_c: that's definitely at least three times the idea was proposed, so do you suppose it's worth to mention in somewhere in the first post as proposed, or are you going to just dismiss it because it doesn't answer the question of what species the MitD is? You can try to argue that it doesn't answer any of the Big Scenes, but wait a moment. Sloanzilla at least says it would give the MitD epic Rogue class levels, which could help explain why he's tougher than typical monsters and I'd add that he could automatically dodge some weapon attacks with his Improved Evasion with high reflex save bonus; Manty5 points out that Serini has high Charisma, and he would keep that after polymorphing, and there are good arguments for why a high Charisma score is a small bonus for an MitD candidate; and while Onyavar never proposed that Serini is the MitD, he mentioned that Serini would know which door leads to the Gate and could paint a red X on that door, and that would explain why the MitD would paint a red X on some doors if he was actually secretly Serini. So while I don't think that the MitD being Serini is a good proposal, it's definitely a serious proposal made in good faith that you should try to list.

Back to Sloanzilla: there were also some theories connecting the MitD and Serini in some less direct way: that the MitD is the key to Serini's gate (which IMO is the most easy to support variant of this argument, but it doesn't really explain how the MitD did any of the Big Scenes); or even that the Dark One's Ritual has already been cast and now Serini's gate is affixed to the MitD who's constantly carrying it with him (seems quite unlikely, but I'd like to mention that if you argue from Redcloak's description of the Ritual, then you can't fail to notice that the Ritual works like Plane Shift spell, it can only move the gate to another plane, not to a target location in the material plane); or that the MitD is an Awakened animal and Serini cast the Awaken (so Awaken gives the MitD +2 HD and +1d3 charisma, which would normally help, but now you have to choose an animal as a base creature, which restricts your candidates to pretty weak ones and template stack jokes); or that Serini knows the MitD or his dad from when he sought out the most powerful monsters because the MitD is powerful (ok, good, nice prediction with consequences for the seventh book, but that doesn't explain anything we've seen of the MitD yet); the popular proposal that also that the MitD's dad or someone else from his species is the endboss in Serini's dungeon (same, doesn't help us explain anything we've seen); that the MitD barely remembers his dad because Serini captured his dad when he collected strong monsters (that's at least a stab towards trying to explain something we already know about the MitD); and I think there's more but I'll post this before researching the rest.

hey thanks for all that. Was a good read- and I really do *want* them to be connected somehow- though much more likely in some of the directions you suggest than directly.

[woweedd]

hey thanks for all that. Was a good read- and I really do *want* them to be connected somehow- though much more likely in some of the directions you suggest than directly.

I think, most likely, a relative/creature that knew MITD's dad will be in Kraagor's dungeon, thus providing us, and him, with yet more hints as to what he is. Or it just raises further questions. Say his mom is in the dungeon, and he notes that she doesn't look like his dad. That introduces the possibility of him being a Templated creature, which is a whole other can of worms. Now, that specific example is unlikely, but it's very probable Rich will throw us another big hint, and I have a feeling that it relates to the dungeon. I mean, you'll note: all the Gates have fallen to some sort of ironic demise, something that turns the philosophy of the builder back on them. Kraagor's dungeon was filled with powerful creatures, based on his obsession with physical might. What better irony then to have that Gate destroyed by a strong monster who embodies brute force?

[majesticmoose]

Two thoughts (and sorry if this has all been mentioned before):

1. The biggest problem with the therblewurkersaurus isn't that the Giant made it up, it's that the readers won't know what one is. The Giant is a skilled storyteller; the reveal is a scene he's been planning for years, and one that's supposed to be dramatically effective; if people still don't know what the monster is after the reveal, that'll be a huge anticlimax, and not in a good way. Even if only the 1/3 (?) of his readers who don't read Monster Manuals for fun have the reaction "What's that?", that'll still be a serious failure. But that in itself counts against most proposed monsters. If the monster isn't something quite well-known (either in D&D or in wider culture), then the Giant will need to have established the nature of its species in-comic well before the reveal if the reveal is to be effective. Of course, he could still start showing us All About The Glabrezu any time now, though it's maybe getting a bit late. Anyway, this seems like an important clue I don't see mentioned in the list of clues: monster should be generally recognizable to a great majority of the comic's readers.

2. Hunters surprised the monster is talking, and in Common: as a possible alternative to "monster's species usually can't or won't talk", I'd want to add "monster's species has telepathy, so it's surprising that it's talking instead of using that." In which case the MitD probably doesn't know that it has telepathy.

[woweedd]

Two thoughts (and sorry if this has all been mentioned before):

1. The biggest problem with the therblewurkersaurus isn't that the Giant made it up, it's that the readers won't know what one is. The Giant is a skilled storyteller; the reveal is a scene he's been planning for years, and one that's supposed to be dramatically effective; if people still don't know what the monster is after the reveal, that'll be a huge anticlimax, and not in a good way. Even if only the 1/3 (?) of his readers who don't read Monster Manuals for fun have the reaction "What's that?", that'll still be a serious failure. But that in itself counts against most proposed monsters. If the monster isn't something quite well-known (either in D&D or in wider culture), then the Giant will need to have established the nature of its species in-comic well before the reveal if the reveal is to be effective. Of course, he could still start showing us All About The Glabrezu any time now, though it's maybe getting a bit late. Anyway, this seems like an important clue I don't see mentioned in the list of clues: monster should be generally recognizable to a great majority of the comic's readers.

2. Hunters surprised the monster is talking, and in Common: as a possible alternative to "monster's species usually can't or won't talk", I'd want to add "monster's species has telepathy, so it's surprising that it's talking instead of using that." In which case the MitD probably doesn't know that it has telepathy.

1. ...No, the biggest problem with the therblewurkersaurus is that it's impossible to guess, which, in a guessing game, is kind of a vital flaw. Also, generally, I feel like it should be hard to guess: After all, most of the well-known monsters, we've already cycled through. If it were one, it'd be easy to tell. Not to mention, why are you assuming the comic can't explain what he is AFTER he's been revealed? Then the reader looks it up and goes "oh, I never would have thought of that, but it fits!"
2. Interesting point, and one hota has come up before.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

1. The biggest problem with the therblewurkersaurus isn't that the Giant made it up, it's that the readers won't know what one is. The Giant is a skilled storyteller; the reveal is a scene he's been planning for years, and one that's supposed to be dramatically effective; if people still don't know what the monster is after the reveal, that'll be a huge anticlimax, and not in a good way. Even if only the 1/3 (?) of his readers who don't read Monster Manuals for fun have the reaction "What's that?", that'll still be a serious failure. But that in itself counts against most proposed monsters. If the monster isn't something quite well-known (either in D&D or in wider culture), then the Giant will need to have established the nature of its species in-comic well before the reveal if the reveal is to be effective. Of course, he could still start showing us All About The Glabrezu any time now, though it's maybe getting a bit late. Anyway, this seems like an important clue I don't see mentioned in the list of clues: monster should be generally recognizable to a great majority of the comic's readers.

Beyond what woweedd has said (all of which I was ready to say myself and glad I didn't have to), you have to accept that the exact name of the species of MitD is NOT required for a dramatic reveal. You personally might be disappointed by it, but it will not be a failure, because dramatic reveals depend on the emotional content of the scene, not on whether you can give the taxonomic name of the individual doing the reveal.

As to showing us "All About The Glabrezu", what do you think all the MitD moments are doing? We know that he is strong, practically invulnerable, capable of teleportation, etc. Whatever MitD's species turns out to be, we already know what MitD can do. A reader who isn't fixated on the name of the species will enjoy the reveal even if at the end they still can't name the species (heck, we still can't say what species Malack was, and I don't see how that took any punch out of his dramatic moments). I can only recommend you become one such reader.

Grey Wolf

[Crusher]

Two thoughts (and sorry if this has all been mentioned before):

1. The biggest problem with the therblewurkersaurus isn't that the Giant made it up, it's that the readers won't know what one is.

I mostly agree with what others have said regarding this point, but I think it can be made a bit more simply. For our purposes, the biggest problem with the therblewurkersaurus (I think that's the first time I've ever actually typed that out) is that the Giant *said* it wasn't one (ie. something he just made up). As you say, the Giant is a skilled storyteller, capable of pulling surprises and misdirections even on readers who have been following this tale for an alarmingly long time and are familiar with his style and propensity to pull surprises and misdirections. As such, I'm not super confident I can accurately guess his reason for having it not be something he made up.

On another point, I'm starting to feel like there's a chance the Astral plane sojourn will end without a MitD clue. Which probably means the Giant will throw one in at the last minute.

[Peelee]

I'm not super confident I can accurately guess his reason for having it not be something he made up.

I am super confident in in guessing his reason for having it not be something he made up, though.

I will say this much: It is possible to guess.
That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story. It wouldn't be any fun for the answer to a mystery to be something I invented just for one purpose, would it?

[Shashakiro]

snip

Don't worry, you're not alone in thinking fame of the creature is a plus, or that the creature being mentioned previously in the comic is too.

These and other benefits are why you should call our toll-free number and join Team Slaad today! =D

EDIT:

Crusher, I did change my vote, end of post 204.

[Crusher]

I am super confident in in guessing his reason for having it not be something he made up, though.

Oh, nuts. I almost added on a disclaimer about "I don't remember exactly how the quote went, but I think blah blah blah." Turns out the rest of the quote was significant after all. That having been said, he did decide around strip #100 which was probably before these threads really got up and running, so... maybe?

Don't worry, you're not alone in thinking fame of the creature is a plus, or that the creature being mentioned previously in the comic is too.

These and other benefits are why you should call our toll-free number and join Team Slaad today! =D

EDIT:

Crusher, I did change my vote, end of post 204.

Ah, so you did. Ok, I've changed it.

[b_jonas]

On another point, I'm starting to feel like there's a chance the Astral plane sojourn will end without a MitD clue. Which probably means the Giant will throw one in at the last minute.

I don't think there'll be any MITD clue on the Astral plane. (OOTS could cut away from the dead Durkon's storyline to get back to the material plane, and we could get a hint about the MITD that way, but that's different.) However, I don't understand what you mean by “at the last minute”. We're definitely not near the last minute before the end of OOTS, or before the reveal of the MitD. We're in the sixth book, and Rich said there'll be a seventh one, I guess that one will be about the Order going to the last gate and defeating Xykon. I think that the MITD will be revealed in the seventh book, and the War and XP preface quote (see first thread) about “need to wait to close to the end” supports this, although it's not a definite proof.

Whatever MitD's species turns out to be, we already know what MitD can do.

Some of it at least, but possibly not all. The MitD once “digged deep and discovered powers that he didn't even know he had”. He still seems to be taking O-Chul's suggestion of thinking for himself seriously, as evidenced by the bluff scene, so he could discover more powers in himself when they'll drive the plot forward. Or he could just use powers he already knew he had, but that we haven't seen. We will probably meet the MitD yet again before the reveal, so there'll be opportunities for him.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Some of it at least, but possibly not all. The MitD once “digged deep and discovered powers that he didn't even know he had”. He still seems to be taking O-Chul's suggestion of thinking for himself seriously, as evidenced by the bluff scene, so he could discover more powers in himself when they'll drive the plot forward. Or he could just use powers he already knew he had, but that we haven't seen. We will probably meet the MitD yet again before the reveal, so there'll be opportunities for him.

Yes, of course. I didn't mean to imply we had already got all the clues about his powers. I was specifically addressing the idea that his species' abilities has to be explained to the readers. I don't know that I agree with that, but I think that whether it has to be or not, it definitely has been explained to the readers through MitD's actions so far. There might be more lessons to come, sure, but we have had more than a few to date.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

I doubt were going to get a completely exhaustive list of all his abilities, but unless its something super into the public consciousness like a dragon, I would be surprised of we don't see a fairly in depth examination of what he can do either. We know he's powerful, but at some point we do need to have some sort of actual meaning attached to that power.

[Crusher]

I don't think there'll be any MITD clue on the Astral plane. (OOTS could cut away from the dead Durkon's storyline to get back to the material plane, and we could get a hint about the MITD that way, but that's different.) However, I don't understand what you mean by “at the last minute”. We're definitely not near the last minute before the end of OOTS, or before the reveal of the MitD. We're in the sixth book, and Rich said there'll be a seventh one, I guess that one will be about the Order going to the last gate and defeating Xykon. I think that the MITD will be revealed in the seventh book, and the War and XP preface quote (see first thread) about “need to wait to close to the end” supports this, although it's not a definite proof.

Some of it at least, but possibly not all. The MitD once “digged deep and discovered powers that he didn't even know he had”. He still seems to be taking O-Chul's suggestion of thinking for himself seriously, as evidenced by the bluff scene, so he could discover more powers in himself when they'll drive the plot forward. Or he could just use powers he already knew he had, but that we haven't seen. We will probably meet the MitD yet again before the reveal, so there'll be opportunities for him.

Oh, I meant at the last minute before we left the Astral plane, not of the whole series.

[Ruck]

Hmm-- do all teleportation effects use the Astral Plane to travel, or only certain ones? Might be a clue to what power the MitD used in the Escape scene. (I imagine someone thought of this already, but I don't remember ever reading it.)

[majesticmoose]

1. ...No, the biggest problem with the therblewurkersaurus is that it's impossible to guess, which, in a guessing game, is kind of a vital flaw.

Sure, that's the biggest problem with using it as the answer in a guessing game. But if there had never been a guessing game, the Giant still would never have written the therblewurkersaurus reveal scene as described because it's terrible storytelling. By all indications, the Giant is more interested in OotS as a work of fiction than as a guessing game. “Huh?” is not the reaction he wants to his big moments. And that's the reaction he's going to get from a lot of readers if he finally throws back the darkness and has someone say, "Look! It was an Athasian Nightmare Beast the entire time!" The Beast is not all that much better than the therblewurkersaurus in that respect.

The first post includes a quote from the Giant about “nine years”, stripped of all context. I think the context is important.

I don't know that "fun" really enters into it as much as "satisfying." And for those, it's the ones where I've been imagining and laying the foundation for a singular surprise for years and I finally get to pull the trigger. Girard's pyramid blowing up one panel after Xykon arrives was a big one, as was Malack's vampire reveal. Anything where I know the strip is going to shock everyone. I've been imagining the scene for MITD's eventual reveal for like nine years now, so I expect that may be the best of them all.

This implies that the reveal scene is meant to shock “everyone”, not just those playing the guessing game. The target audience for the reveal scene is the strip's entire readership.

Also, generally, I feel like it should be hard to guess: After all, most of the well-known monsters, we've already cycled through. If it were one, it'd be easy to tell. Not to mention, why are you assuming the comic can't explain what he is AFTER he's been revealed? Then the reader looks it up and goes "oh, I never would have thought of that, but it fits!"

Because that wouldn't be dramatically effective. Going from “I don't know what he is because he's in darkness” to “now that he's visible, I still don't know what he is because this monster type isn't familiar” would be anticlimactic in the extreme. Not that the Giant doesn't make frequent and effective use of anticlimax, but the quote above strongly suggests that the reveal scene will not be of that nature.

2. Interesting point, and one hota has come up before.

hota = that?

Beyond what woweedd has said (all of which I was ready to say myself and glad I didn't have to), you have to accept that the exact name of the species of MitD is NOT required for a dramatic reveal. You personally might be disappointed by it, but it will not be a failure, because dramatic reveals depend on the emotional content of the scene, not on whether you can give the taxonomic name of the individual doing the reveal.

I'm not at all saying the exact species name is required. I said “generally recognizable”...I can envision that being able to put him in a wide category like “demon” might be enough, depending. But if people have no idea what he is after he shows himself, what's the dramatic surprise? Some unrelated action he coincidentally takes at the same time? The fact that he finally rebelled against being kept in the dark? He's already been taking rebellious and surprising actions without revealing himself. I'm pretty sure the final surprise when he's revealed will involve what kind of thing he's revealed to be—either for the contrast between expected behavior for that kind of thing and the behavior he's been showing, or because knowing his nature will imply that he has some particular ability needed (and used) at that moment, or something. “Oh, that's ironic, he was a Lich-Eater.”

As to showing us "All About The Glabrezu", what do you think all the MitD moments are doing? We know that he is strong, practically invulnerable, capable of teleportation, etc. Whatever MitD's species turns out to be, we already know what MitD can do.

Showing “All About The MitD” is not the same thing as showing “All About The Glabrezu”. Even if the MitD turns out to be a Glabrezu. We'd need to have some other visible Glabrezu in the strip and learn about them, so we'd have one body of facts we've learned about Glabrezu, and another body of facts we've learned about the MitD. Then, when we learn the MitD is a Glabrezu, that would mean something: we'd suddenly dump those two bodies of facts into one bucket and immediately draw a pile of new inferences from the combination, one or more of which will contribute to the dramatic effect.

A reader who isn't fixated on the name of the species will enjoy the reveal even if at the end they still can't name the species (heck, we still can't say what species Malack was, and I don't see how that took any punch out of his dramatic moments). I can only recommend you become one such reader.

The big surprise was that Malack was a vampire, and we already knew enough about vampires for that to be meaningful and surprising to us (and to Durkon).

For comparison, let's say Malack is revealed to be a mohrg. Less familiar, but readers who don't know the monster still get “that's obviously a creepy undead thing, probably evil” which is still a decent surprise. Lose the specific callback to bloodwart tea, lose the wondering about how Malack survives the sunlight, add some distraction from wondering “what is that”...this reveal is maybe half to two-thirds as effective as the vampire reveal, for those who don't already know what a mohrg is.

Now let's say Malack turned out to be a polymorphed mercane. Now someone who doesn't know the monster probably can't guess much of anything from its appearance. We thus have a generic “this person turned out to be something different than they looked like, and at the same time they turned out to be an antagonist.” That's weaker still. Weak enough that having failed to either familiarize us with mercanes prior to the reveal, or pick some other monster that's already familiar, would look like a serious missed opportunity.

[ti'esar]

I find that people making this line of argument seem to persistently underestimate the Giant. I can easily imagine a MitD reveal scene being awesome even though I don't recognize the actual monster.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Sure, that's the biggest problem with using it as the answer in a guessing game. But if there had never been a guessing game, the Giant still would never have written the therblewurkersaurus reveal scene as described because it's terrible storytelling.

No, because if it wasn't a guessing game, he would not have kept MitD in the dark.

Because that wouldn't be dramatically effective. Going from “I don't know what he is because he's in darkness” to “now that he's visible, I still don't know what he is because this monster type isn't familiar” would be anticlimactic in the extreme.

No it would not. This assertion is meaningless without backing it up. What you actually mean is "I can't imagine how that scene would work", which pretty much assures that when he does do the reveal and, based on past such momentous scenes in the comic, a large proportion of its readership loves it, you will be (a) amazed at the climax you couldn't predict today or (b) complaining that it doesn't work for you.

But if people have no idea what he is after he shows himself, what's the dramatic surprise?

By this thesis, the escape scene didn't surprise anyone.

I'm pretty sure the final surprise when he's revealed will involve what kind of thing he's revealed to be

That's because you're obsessed with what species he is, as I predicted.

The big surprise was that Malack was a vampire, and we already knew enough about vampires for that to be meaningful and surprising to us (and to Durkon).

So you accept that the big reveals don't have to have anything with the characters species, rendering everything else meaningless. Stop thinking that MitD is only defined by his species.

Look, bottom line is that I've had this discussion a handful of times now, and I'm tired of it. It comes down to a single thought: "there is no way to do a reveal of a creature I can't locate in the monster manual". It is a thesis that I find completely unsupportable, full of faith-backed statements like "it would be completely undramatic" and "anti-climax" which you have absolutely no way of demonstrating other than your personal belief. I happen to respect Rich's abilities as a storyteller, and believe that MitD's character development is what will carry the scene regardless of what he looks like or whether I'll be able to tell what species it is.

Grey Wolf

[woweedd]

No, because if it wasn't a guessing game, he would not have kept MitD in the dark.


No it would not. This assertion is meaningless without backing it up. What you actually mean is "I can't imagine how that scene would work", which pretty much assures that when he does do the reveal and, based on past such momentous scenes in the comic, a large proportion of its readership loves it, you will be (a) amazed at the climax you couldn't predict today or (b) complaining that it doesn't work for you.


By this thesis, the escape scene didn't surprise anyone.


That's because you're obsessed with what species he is, as I predicted.


So you accept that the big reveals don't have to have anything with the characters species, rendering everything else meaningless. Stop thinking that MitD is only defined by his species.

Look, bottom line is that I've had this discussion a handful of times now, and I'm tired of it. It comes down to a single thought: "there is no way to do a reveal of a creature I can't locate in the monster manual". It is a thesis that I find completely unsupportable, full of faith-backed statements like "it would be completely undramatic" and "anti-climax" which you have absolutely no way of demonstrating other than your personal belief. I happen to respect Rich's abilities as a storyteller, and believe that MitD's character development is what will carry the scene regardless of what he looks like or whether I'll be able to tell what species it is.

Grey Wolf

Exactly. For instance, if, in that scene, MITD finally stands up to Xykon, stepping out of the darkness to fight his former master, maybe even to defend O-Chul, that would still be dramatic, regardless of his species.

[Peelee]

It comes down to a single thought: "there is no way to do a reveal of a creature I can't locate in the monster manual". It is a thesis that I find completely unsupportable, full of faith-backed statements like "it would be completely undramatic" and "anti-climax" which you have absolutely no way of demonstrating other than your personal belief.

I vote you put this or something like this in either section 1l or 4c. Also, what's the difference between 3s and 3e? Just how often they're brought up?