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Thread: 1 martial vs an army
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2018-07-09, 01:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1 martial vs an army
Sufficient DR, as described earlier, should make you immune to arrows barring a crit, and the likelihood of a double natural 20 crit followed by a natural 1 on your fort save vs the poison is nearing 0.
Also, let's remember that if the NPCs are using poison, probably about 2.5% of the army is out of commission on each volley, as they roll a natural 1 on their attack roll, and then fail their save vs poisoning themselves, unless you're dedicating one of their feats to master of poisons, which I feel isn't really reasonable for an entire army.World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
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2018-07-09, 01:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1 martial vs an army
Some thoughts:
Roll with it [Savage Species], gives you DR 2/- and can be taken multiple times.
Planar Touchstone -> Catalogs of Enlightenment -> Pride Domain is useful for anything that requires a save (poison,etc)
Note that your weapon and your protective items can be sundered or disarmed (may need a lot of aid another)! Armor can't be sundered, so it may be worthwhile to add other magical abilities to it (ring of freedom of movement, etc) and eat the cost increase.
Freedom of movement is essential so the army can't just pick you up and bull rush you into a conveniently placed vat of acid/lava or tie you up after you run out of AoOs.
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2018-07-09, 01:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1 martial vs an army
Warblade 1/Fighter X, drop two feats to pick up a Devoted Spirit strike and then the Martial Spirit stance. Then get your AC and DR in order, Mithral Fullplate and a Defending weapon for the AC and I believe there's a soulmeld for DR, congratulations you now have next to no chance of dying to hit point damage. Getting immunity to poison or some kind of free-action neutralize on a magic item means even that cheese can't hurt you.
Last edited by Erit; 2018-07-09 at 01:56 AM.
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2018-07-09, 03:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1 martial vs an army
Regarding the makeup of the army, I might suggest referencing the Epic Leadership chart to get an idea how levels might break down.
The horde reaches 500 between a leadership score of 32 and 33, which breaks down thusly
400 40 20 10 5 3 2 1
This is just meant to provide a reasonable array--you certainly don't want to have to deal with a level 30 Leader and his epic Cohort, so let's say that one lone level 8 dude is the General, the L7s are his Lieutenants, and you've still got a few bigger guys for division leaders and various specialists.
Obviously the 400 L1s are the fresh recruits and militia, with NPC WBL they're lucky if they have decent light armor and a polearm.
Make the 40 L2 guys be archers, give the 20 L3s a horse and saber, the 10 L4s a horse and lance and heavy armor and I think you've got a pretty believable army makeup.
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2018-07-09, 05:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1 martial vs an army
Access to some form of automatic healing is essentially mandatory, but even one level of Crusader's got you covered with Martial Spirit stance, Crusader's Strike, and Stone Bones (Dragon Shaman's Aura of Vigor requires your hp to be much higher than otherwise). Someone's already mentioned the Block Arrow feat (Heroes of Battle), which will negate one projectile per round, while most of the rest will be negated by Full Plate+Buckler, assuming they even have that many. We use a buckler because the really dangerous thing here is being dogpiled with grapple/trip, and preventing a dogpile requires reach and Combat Reflexes. Multiple copies of Roll With It (or another source of DR to boost with feats) is nice, but you still have to worry about being hogtied and just flat executed- no amount of DR will protect you from suffocation or burning alive.
The army as portrayed in the DMG is going to be mostly those commoner 1 conscripts, who don't even have projectile weapons- they're mostly dangerous as terrain blockers and a potential stampede and honestly after the first dozen or two fall should be flatly unwilling to attack you. Warrior 1s with one-handed weapons are also little threat, unless they're disciplined enough to forgo those weapons and dogpile you. Warrior 1s withlightlances are dangerous on a crit, but mostly are dangerous because updating their gear to 3.5 means they've got reach so they can surround and Aid Another you: half a dozen levels will give you plenty enough hp to hold, then stab and heal your way out. Higher level warriors are mostly a threat only in that it will take multiple attacks to bring them down, reducing your shock value and giving the rest of them more time to bunch up and dogpile. On the flipside, any properly geared PC-classed NPC can be built to crush you just fine, because PC classes are built for slaying monsters and PCs are much squishier than monsters.
A 5th or preferably 6th level full BAB build built for the job should do the job just fine. One level of Crusader, however many levels of Fighter you need for the desired feats, fill the rest with whatever you like. Doing the job without Crusader or something else for healing is mostly an exercise in how many hits get through your defenses, which depends on how many ranged/reach weapons they have, and how willing the fodder is to throw themselves on your blade.
If you've got a more optimized army, it gets far more dangerous extremely quickly. If the peasants are armed with longspears instead of shortspears, you can't mow them down with AoOs. If they have the perfect direction to rush you all at once then you will be dogpiled. If the whole army has crossbows, you're going to be spending your time hiding in cover. If they have tower shields they can just box you in. If they have a half a dozen classed NPCs of comparable level to you who work in coordination they can probably overwhelm you, especially if they're mounted.
The question of what ratio of conscripts to warriors is also important. A pop center has 1 soldier/guard per 100 people, and a further 1 militiaman per 20 people, but those numbers line up with warrior totals. While a quick look at wikipedia does find medieval levies described as "mostly rabble," it then goes on and on about militaries getting more professionalized and having tons of paid soldiers and mercenaries. Combine this with the fact that those soldiers still need to eat and you need some 90% of your pop farming, I think the city generation's 5% warriors should actually cover your actual medieval levies. Or least half of it- another figure was each Englishman serving "40 days" (which is actually served by those who don't pay their way out) which if we take to mean 40 days per year and divide it out results in. . . about 10%, or only 5% of your pop if you read Englishman as male only, which brings us right back to that 5%.
So even though the DMG says most of the army should be commoner conscripts, city generation has set it up so the army is actually all warrior 1's. That doesn't actually mean they're all soldiers (remember, only 1% are soldiers compared to 5% as warriors), nor does it mean they'll all be equipped with bows, but it does give a lot more room for optimization by someone who's willing to pay for all that. Looks like it would be most appropriate to have 4/5 of the army be warrior 1s with poor gear and discipline, 1/5 with good gear and discipline, and however many higher level guys you find appropriate.
The various humanoids in the MM get companies of 11-20 war 1s+ 2 "sergeants of 3rd level" and one "leader of 3rd-6th level. Round that to 17+2+1 and an army of 500 has 25*2= 50 3rd level guys and 25 3rd-6th level guys. The classes of the sergeants and leaders aren't specified. That's plenty enough high level characters to beat you down even with an endurance build, but obviously as leaders of smaller groups they should be spread out. If the army is composed of bands then those numbers will vary a lot more (and since bands include noncombatants, as in camp follower support staff, they should probably be bands).Last edited by Fizban; 2018-07-09 at 05:09 AM.
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2018-07-09, 05:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1 martial vs an army
Would it be reasonable to assume that there's going to be a few other supporters in the low-level rows? The Level 1 guys probably have light shields, padded vests, a club or similar simple weapon and a few javelins, the Level 2 soldiers could have both archers and a few adepts to provide magical support, the Level 3s are mainly fighters with probably a few martial adepts and the Level 4 are heavy armored mounted combatants as stated. Level 5 will probably have one or two rogues and the higher level ones may include full-on PC spellcasters.
As for the martial fighting them, I think Level 15 is a good baseline.
Edit: Formatting changeLast edited by MeimuHakurei; 2018-07-09 at 05:26 AM.
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2018-07-09, 05:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1 martial vs an army
One of the optional rules in the epic level handbook is to allow the followers to have PC class levels at the expense of 3 character levels, so one of the level 6 guys could be replaced with a level 3 bard with that horn that can be heard for miles, along with that 1,500 gp medallion that allows you to get +1 to inspire courage, the inspirational boost spell (debtable, considering no "spellcasters"), and the feat that gives you +1 to inspire courage, along with words of creation, for a pretty substantial +6-8 attack and damage bonus for the entire army. With that one change, suddenly the capabilities of the army shift quite drastically.
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2018-07-09, 06:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1 martial vs an army
I find the assumption that an "army" is somehow composed of only extremely low-level conscripts rather scetchy.
Even if you subscribe to the idea that Level 1 is the norm for normal NPCs (which is not supported by published aventures and setting material, mind you), an army contains veterans, officers and Champions, not to mention beast of war/constructs and special weapons/siege weapons.
Sure, there is a threshold for when a "hero" will eclipse even those, but I figure that in the double digits.
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2018-07-09, 07:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1 martial vs an army
Considering an Army, would the following work? I know you said 500, but that seems a little low for an Army
1 level 9 Crusader - General
2 level 8 Warblades - Lieutenant Generals
4 level 7 Warblades - Major General
12 level 6 Marshals - Brigadiers
24 level 5 Marshals - Colonel
96 level 4 Marshals - Lieutenant Colonel
192 level 3 Marshals - Captains
384 level 3 Bards - 1st Lietenants
768 level 2 Bards - Sergeants
3072 level 1 Fighters - Soldiers
Would any level 20 Initiator be able to take this? Would any single classed non-caster? Caster? Multiclassed Character? What's the lowest level of optimization for a single character to blow through an army?
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2018-07-09, 07:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1 martial vs an army
I have to stridently disagree. Even a level. 1 PC is an Olympian by real-world standards--'salt of the earth' types reach 13 in any stat exceptionally rarely. And compare the wealth thresholds. A level 5 PC has more wealth on his potions belt than a commoner sees in his lifetime.
We're all Batman.
Granted it's in a world where there's a lot of Batmans (probably on par with the population density of the DC universe, come to think of it) but a mundane army is going to be full of Jimmy Olsons.
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2018-07-09, 08:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1 martial vs an army
As long as you're not facing all generals at once (the warblades and the crusader), most level 20 initiators with appropriate WBL should be perfectly fine, if they're at least slightly geared towards this. +3 enchant on your weapon is pocket change by level 20. Getting DR 10/- or Heavy Fort +5 Full Plate at level 20 isn't hard either. You're Lu Bu (probably the Dynasty Warriors version, too), or War, or Doomguy on permanent Berserk. Swordsages have it the worst (still possible, though?), I'd say, while someone like a Warder or a Harbinger is gonna have a field day with it, easily destroying whole formations on their turn and out of turn, too.
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2018-07-09, 08:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1 martial vs an army
Unsupported by the capabilities of 1st Level PCs.
And compare the wealth thresholds. A level 5 PC has more wealth on his potions belt than a commoner sees in his lifetime.
Also, I think you underestimate the wealth of a commoner. Sure, a commoner earns only 3 GP/month (which still accumulates to a lot over a lifetime), but owns buildings that are quite expensive.
And, again, published adventures, Setting books and Monster Manual entries contradict the "there are only 1st Level NPCs" line of thinking.
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2018-07-09, 08:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1 martial vs an army
If you're building specifically for this encounter maybe the sole martial would have that.
But then - in that case the army's generals & high officers (level 5-8ish from other posts) are all rogues with UMD and wands of magic missile.
It gets silly if we're building for this sole encounter. I was under the impression that this was a query about a standardly built martial vs a standard NPC army. And at low level with some of the crazy monsters they'll need to fight (many with horrid AC) - it only makes sense for them to be archery focused.
Lets not make this an escalating Schrodenger's build game.
Where do you get that idea? The standard NPC stat array includes a 13 - so it seems pretty normal to have 1-2 stats in that range. At level 4 they'd bump that up to 14.
A heroic NPC stat array has a 15, 14, & a 13.Last edited by CharonsHelper; 2018-07-09 at 08:27 AM.
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2018-07-09, 08:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1 martial vs an army
I feel like this could make for a really cool build competition, what does everyone think? We could come up with the army and their tactics for each round and include what restrictions there are for the build?
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2018-07-09, 10:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1 martial vs an army
Is it just me or does this thread not remind you all of Berserk - Guts fighting of a 100 men.
On a more on topic point. I do think that we would need more details on the whole scenario.
Many pointed out already that the composition of the army would be a big factor in the discussion but I feel, that the topography (and mobility of the involved parties) would probably be of equal importance.
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2018-07-09, 10:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1 martial vs an army
Interesting thread, but also kind of missing the point I think? The goal (unless I misunderstood it) was to see how overblown someones reputation could be for "Defeating an army."
So, defeating doesn't mean butchering to the last man. This guy doesn't need to kill an army in single combat, just drive them off. Remember the Charge of the Light Brigade at the Battle of Balaclava? "Into the jaws of death rode the 600?" A Unit so reduced and shattered in morale it was never reformed? That was about 2/3rds casualties, of whom about half were dead, and the rest wounded.
Granted asking a single person to kill or wound a few hundred people is a tall order, but we may be forgiven for thinking that this fantasy army might have less high morale than a unit still remembered in verse 150+ years later.
And I think it's fair to pick optimal terrain. 1 man fighting a small army in an open field is a very different scenario than one trying to stop an army from crossing a bridge or tunnel.
If he was trying to prevent an army from crossing a covered bridge, or mountain tunnel, then he has less to worry about from ranged troops.
If he had time to prepare his place of battle he could have built a small barricade to give him cover from missile fire, and he can hide behind that and only sally forth when the army sends men to try and displace the barricade.
Under those circumstances, I think an optimized 3rd level Crusader could do it, or an unoptimized 5th level one, assuming the goal is to inflict, say 10% casualties in close combat, while stalling the armies advance. I'm sure plenty of other builds could do so as well, but Crusaders can self-heal without breaking the spellcasting ban.
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2018-07-09, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1 martial vs an army
Any character with initiator level 11-12 can pick up Desert Tempest (Desert Wind manuever lvl6) and/or Ring of Fire (also lvl6) and with sufficiently high speed can attack each member of the army (Desert Tempest) or light them all on fire (Ring of Fire) in one round. Get Knock Down and Great Cleave to get extra attacks with Desert Tempest, or Empower/Maximize Supernatural Ability to deal more fire damage with Ring of Fire.
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2018-07-09, 11:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1 martial vs an army
[QUOTE=Zombimode;23208111]
PCs are Special concerning wealth. NPCs of the same Level have less.
QUOTE]
This isn't true at very low levels, 1st level npcs have 900 gp, and 2nd levels have more. 2nd level Pcs have 900 gp and 1st levels have less
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2018-07-09, 12:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1 martial vs an army
As much reach as you can plus spiked chain, great cleave and 18 strength. An average levy is a lvl 1 commoner with 10s in all stats before racials, likely a club or shortspear and maybe padded armor. He will have 4 or 5 hp, 11 ac. Thats about 400 of your army. You will have most of the reamining 100 be lvl 1 warriors with a longsword a buckler or light wooden shield and leather armor. 8 or 9 hp. You will have maybe 20 veterans which are lvl 2 warriors that might have studded leather and a bow or crossbow. 5 to 7 corporols that are lvl 1 fighters, 3 or 4 sargents in scale mail that are level 3 fighters, and one 5th level fighter as the captain. He might have plate, likely half plate. Corporol and up, maybe veterans will have elite array. I assuming pretty basic non optimized army.
A goliath with strongarm bracers and monkey grip can weild a gargantuan spiked chain (or barbed chain) for 3d8 ( or 6d6) plus 6 (2 handed with 18 str) 9 damage minimum a hit, with 30 ft reach i believe. Thats 264 threatened squares. All the chaff are killed in 2 rounds, possibly one depending on movement. A way to reroll an unlucky few 1s makes that almost certain in 2 rounds. Crusader 1 fighter 4 x 1 that gives rerolls or anything you want, plus 1 la ecl 7. Monkey grip, ewp, cleave, power attack, great cleave your level 3 feat is free. Take victors luck for a reroll, and buy the 5k amulet in the mic thats 2 rerolls, mantle of second chances is affordable if pricey at ecl 7 if you can, thats 3. If you get one or two more levels so you have more wbl to work with go to the catelogs for luck domain thats 4.
You can start 14 dex 14 str 14 wis 16 con with 28 pb, gets you 18 str and con, 12 dex, 14 wis and you can cast freedom of movement if needed. 4 rerolls should let you decimate them easily. Plus if you kill half the army within 6 secods im pretty sure all the commoners and most the warriors will flee. The fighters may as well.
So ecl 7 thru 9 depends on how lucky you are.
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2018-07-09, 12:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1 martial vs an army
If you want to tip the fight further in favor of the martial, you can have it take place in adverse weather conditions where the army has trouble coordinating its front line with its archers, or even keeping its squads in formation. Winning a series of 1v20s is a lot easier than winning a 1v500, and is well within the capacity of a slightly optimized level 12 fighter with a pile of healing potions.
Last edited by Bucky; 2018-07-09 at 12:52 PM.
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2018-07-09, 01:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1 martial vs an army
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milita...ions_and_units
'army' and terrain are very important here. So based on OP we are talking about a human infantry battalion (300-1000; 500 in this case), lets call them part of a 'trained standing army', ie they are not restricted to NPC calsses. Leader should be a lieutenant colonel (1 level 4 Marshal) battalion is composed of 5 companies of 100 each, plus 5 captains (5 level 3 Marshals); which is composed of 2 infantry platoons of 50 each, plus 2 1st Lieutenants (10 level 3 Bards); which are each composed of 2 sections of 25 soldiers each, plus 1 Sergeant (20 level 2 Bards). So if I counted correctly that gives of 500 soldiers, 20 sergeants, 10 1st Lieutenants, 5 captains, and 1 lieutenant colonel 536 total.
Next is army makeup: officers use elite array, soldiers use standard (ignoring officer abilities for the moment)
-200 large shield and short sword fighters (Shield Wall, Phalanx Fighting, Combat Reflexes)
-100 polearm fighters Guisarme (Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes)
-200 Fighter Archers with Composite Longbows (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot)
Tactics: The ss and reach fighters formup into groups with ss making up the front row and reach standing behind, reach fighters trip and everyone then attacks. While archer group uses volley tactics from the back. This makes a pretty solid infantry battalion that I believe would be pretty reasonable and powerful for army conflicts. Granted probably not very effective against a single target.
Terrain: Perhaps going with a 300 style narrow mountain pass, a choke point is a reasonable place to make an attack as a small number (this case 1 person) who is taking on a large group. With x amount of time to prepare.
Ways to rate a successful build:
-survive y amount of time for rest of army to arrive and help out.
-Kill/ incapacitate 357 soldiers.
-Other(stacking fear affects to destroy army or other novel tactics)
Build requirements:
-standard PHB races
-all WotC 3.0 (that haven't been updated) books, 3.5 books (all setting specific stuff is fine), and dragon/dungeon mag.
-tier 3 or lower classes primarily mundane (allow up to level 4 spells so as to not arbitrarily exclude things like ranger, paladin, and hexblade), no prc that would boost casting above this limit.
-32 point buy
How does that sound? Anyone interested in fleshing out some builds to see who could take the battalion down at the lowest level?
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2018-07-09, 02:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1 martial vs an army
Venerable dragonwrought kobald gets frightful presence I think, be one level higher than the mooks and pump cha. Most will drop their gear and flee. Just kill the rest on your choice of way.
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2018-07-09, 03:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1 martial vs an army
Standard Bardblade but take the Inspire Awe acf to fear effects. With Haunting Melody on top of that and an Alphorn you can frighten everyone for miles with a standard. Take one level of Warrior Skald to get back regular Bard Musics and do regular Inspire Courage and Dragonfire Inspiration optimization too to clean up the mooks who stick around
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2018-07-09, 03:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1 martial vs an army
You can take awaken frightful presence at level 3 which gives you 30' radius aura and immunizes on succeeded will saves for 24 hours; at level 3 you could have a bonus of +16 (+5 cha +1 level). At level 5, 1 more than the lieutenant colonel +19(+7 Cha with cloak, +2 levels)
On the other side there are bards and marshals giving + 4 or 5 bonus to will saves to the melee fighters seems reasonable for lieutenant colonel +1 bard and 200 archers. Verdict... kobald pincushion before he can get in range for frightful presence to activate.Last edited by liquidformat; 2018-07-09 at 03:25 PM. Reason: missed venerable
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2018-07-09, 03:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-07-09, 04:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1 martial vs an army
Last edited by Bucky; 2018-07-09 at 04:30 PM.
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2018-07-09, 04:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1 martial vs an army
What level would a martial need to be do it through guerilla warfare and relying on hit & run/marksmanship along with obscene stealth to whittle them down bit by bit?
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2018-07-09, 05:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1 martial vs an army
Since dragonwrought kobalds are true dragons unless I'm missing something they get real dragon frightful presence once they pass age threshold, at vernerable they are at least very old and have 270 ft range. Marshall only gives 60 ft. 24 cha with a starting cha of 18, plus 3 venerable, us 2 cloak, plus 1 asi, add ability focus and it's dc 20 will of panic for less than 5 hd. They will likely have plus 0 will so only Nat 20 saves, add any more fear stuff and the higher than 5th level will progress through stages of fear and it will panicked shortly. That's just doing fear shenanigans. You can have most the battle field in short order throwing their gear down and running from the 2 foot menace which is a visual i love.
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2018-07-09, 05:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1 martial vs an army
Probably level 9. Ranger 2/ whirl pounce barbarian/ fighter 6.
Rapid shot, pbs, woodland archer, weapon focus, weapon specialization, dead eye, headlong rush, raptor school, far shot.
Headlong rush and whirling frenzy don't specify melee weapons for you on a charge. Make pointless jump checks for Plus 4 damage using Raptor School. Add Dex to damage. Use a composite bow. You got five shots a round at 1d6/or 1d8 +12 damage, which you then double...
Just keep strafing an a diagonal away for your 80' of straight line jumpy movement. That's 4-5 dead dudes per turn.
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2018-07-09, 06:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 1 martial vs an army
You might be able to do it faster with a Swift Hunter build and the Dark Template so they don't get to fight back. Probably want Travel Devotion so you can move after Hiding to avoid becoming a pincushion.