Reading Discworld!

[Cazero]

Marginally related, but I would like to offer this gathering of Discworlders this: Run Rincewind Run, as first debut'd at Nullus Anxietas (the Australian DW convention) in 2007. Not enough people have seen it, for my liking, so it may be amusing to some of you anew.

They need to fire the director for not reading the books.
Seriously, their Rincewind keeps turning around while running to look at who's chasing him. Doesn't he knows that it slows him down?

[Kato]

I'm trying to be at least a little sensitive to new readers, seeing as that is the foundation of the thread. So I don't want to go into details. That said, I found NW to be the most personal character study of the franchise, taking Sam Vimes, an already well developed character, and breaking him down piece by piece and challenging everything he is.

I feel like it's possible to argue the basics without spoiling anything. And if necessary there are always spoiler tags.
I won't entirely disagree about what NW does, but I will disagree with the scope and the effect it had on me. Yes, it's a good Vimes book, but if you want more than the 'Sam Vimes show' it's disappointing (to a degree).

I must also say that Discworld is one of the rare cases when the transition is actually better than the original by adding more depth and gravitas to it. It´s the small things: Sam Vimes is translated as Samuel Mumm. Mumm has a very specific meaning, it being the stubborn heroic of the small folks.
Also, the Patrician comes over as way more reasonable, but also way more cold-blooded, which fits the character.

I've also started reading the German books, though I can't say I remember how many of them, but I've since swapped to the originals and I don't intend to go back.
When I read it there was just too much lost in translation, considering how well Pratchett wielded language as part of his arsenal. I'm sure the translators tried - some at least - but it's not possible to carry over everything.
Vimes is actually an example I'd hold against them, though this might be because I'm not a native speaker. 'Vimes' to me holds no or little similarity to what I associate with 'Mumm' and while it might just be a name, I don't welcome such change. Translating Twoflower or Carrot is fine by me, but Vîmes or Aching are cases where it's either not a good idea or done less than ideally. And I know translating is hard work and those are merely my opinions on the matter. And if this makes it more accessible to people, I'm not going to argue with it.

May I please ask, which of the Guards novels is your favourite? Your choice might help us understand your deviancy opinion more clearly?

Seriously though, I would like to know which was your favourite. I feel that you can learn a little about a person, by knowing which books they like.

As I said, I'm terrible at picking favorites. There's too many pros and cons for all, for me to 'this has the most better moments'.
Also it's been a while since I read them all. Gut feeling would be Jingo, even with its flaws, or maybe Men at Arms. But I'd rather go back and read them again before I make a definitive statement.

I don't think it's too big of a spoiler to say that, of all the characters that Terry wrote about, Granny Weatherwax was the most different between her early and later stories. Equal Rites' Granny is almost completely a different person to Witches Abroad Granny, as she goes from being a wise-woman who knows magic to becoming a Witch - a very specific term, in Discworld parlance.

I think Death, at least between CoM (and I think also still in LF) was an even more massively different character than later on, to the point where in my head canon it must be somebody else. Yes, granny too is markedly different but not as much as Death.

[dehro]

I think Death, at least between CoM (and I think also still in LF) was an even more massively different character than later on, to the point where in my head canon it must be somebody else. Yes, granny too is markedly different but not as much as Death.

My headcanon is that DEATH looked at Rincewind's hourglass for the first time and was forever changed.

[Sinewmire]

Watchmen: Tough pick, probably Feet of Clay.

Spoiler: Feet of Clay

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"Blasphemy!" "That's what people always say when the silent are given a voice."

Rincewind/Wizards: Sourcery. Rincewind steps up.

Spoiler: Sourcery

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Rincewind steps up to face the mightiest magician the Disc has ever seen, armed with a half-brick in a sock.

Death/Susan: Hogfather. Mr Teatime is a great villain.

Spoiler: Hogfather

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"Humans need the little lies to believe in the big lies, like Truth, Justice, Mercy." Ouch, have mercy, Pterry!

The Witches: Lords and Ladies. I love Pratchett's take on the Sidhe. par for the course now, but pretty revolutionary at the time.

Spoiler: Lords and Ladies

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"They'd shatter the world if they thought it'd make a pretty noise."

Moist: Going Postal... I felt that Moist's sequels were pretty weak really, not a hard choice.
One-offs: Monstrous Regiment. I love the Sharpe books and war novels in general, so I could well imagine poor war-torn Borogrovia.

Spoiler: Monstrous Regiment

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"And all along you promoted the secret women if they were as good as men?" "No. I promoted them if they were better."

[Mightymosy]

So, I finished Mort.

It was okay, though I don't have it quite as high as some people seem to have it.
SPOILER ALERT!!!
(sorry, no idea how to do it on phone)










I think Death's behavior is a little puzzling in the end. I don't quite understand his motivations first for getting angry and attacking Mort - and then I don't understand his reasons for saving Mort.
Also, I thought his whole thing was that he never killed - or saved - people, refusing to mess with the lifespans of people.
Turning Mort's hourglass means he could do it for everyone, right? All kinds of implications, none explained, none further explored.

All in all, I think the end in general is a little over the place. I have had this feeling with a couple of Pratchet books now. Everything builds up fine and interesting, but in the end things happen that I don't get.
I much preferred the ending to Witches abroad - or Wyrd Sisters, for that matter.

The plot resolutions make sense in an emotional way, I guess, but I often don't get why they happen in a couple of books, Mort being a good example.

For example, the whole "parallel universe bubble". The difference between the bubble and the "real" disc world was that princess Keli was murdered in the outside universe, but alive in the bubble, right?

So how comes the bubble still exists after the gods allow princess Keli to live on in the real disc world?

Also, this whole business about Albert. What was his deal with Death? What was his agenda when he returned as a wizard? What's he about to do now?

Last, what about Mort and Ysabelle? Mort had a crush on Keli, and now all of a sudden he marries Ysabelle? Came out of the blue for me.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

SPOILER ALERT!!!
(sorry, no idea how to do it on phone)

Quote this message to find out.

Spoiler: Terry Pratchett

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(I wanted to use code tags, but it just displayed a spoiler in a code box.)

[pendell]

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I think Death's behavior is a little puzzling in the end. I don't quite understand his motivations first for getting angry and attacking Mort - and then I don't understand his reasons for saving Mort.
Also, I thought his whole thing was that he never killed - or saved - people, refusing to mess with the lifespans of people.
Turning Mort's hourglass means he could do it for everyone, right? All kinds of implications, none explained, none further explored.

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It's been awhile since I read the book, but IIRC the issue was that Mort was abusing his power as death, deciding who should live and who should die, saving Keli's life when she was fated to die.

I think the reason Death turned the hourglass over were those last lines:
Death: YOU DON'T KNOW HOW SORRY THIS MAKES ME.
Mort: I might.

I think that touched some part of death, made him realize that here was someone who really understood it, really got it.

So he turned the hourglass over. He does not , himself, have the authority to change someone's fated time but, if I remember correctly, he "had a word with the gods" who totally could.

I believe something similar happens in Reaper Man: While Death is simply the executor of fate and has no power of his own to altar it, he does have access to and audience with those who can and do have that ability: The gods.

It is a privilege he is very careful not to abuse , which is one reason they listen to him. If he was constantly haranguing them about the work he did, they'd probably put him out to pasture.

And, as you will see if you continue to read the books , the scales DO eventually balance out.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[veti]

So, I finished Mort.

It was okay, though I don't have it quite as high as some people seem to have it.

I agree. Several of the books have issues with pacing toward the end, which translate into rushed resolutions.

I think people like Mort because it's identified as the starting point of the "serious" development of the world, the book where character development sets in. Not because it's all that great in its own right, although I'm sure someone will disagree with that now...

[Calemyr]

Spoiler: Mort

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I think Mort chose Ysabelle over Keli for some very good reasons. His fascination with Keli was shallow in nature. He didn't want to claim the soul of a cute girl who'd been unjustly killed, and lots of trouble came of it. He could have doubled down on it to prove he wasn't wrong, but thought better of it. Ysabelle, on the other hand, wasn't as beautiful a girl but it was Ysabelle that had Mort's back, that did the Nodes for him when he didn't know what to do, and that stood up to her very father beside him. God bless the man who chooses a true partner over a pretty face.

I do agree with Pendell on why Death spared Mort. Death's willingness to kill Mort is an echo of Mort's unwillingness to kill Keli. Mort couldn't bring him to do it despite the fact that it was his Duty, while Death respects his Duty even if it genuinely pains him to enact it. By simply saying "I might", Mort did exactly what he needed to: embrace his death with dignity, accept that he didn't do it right, and commiserate with Death in a dark moment. That was all he needed to change his mind.

There's one other detail. I think it's stated that Death's entire reason for hiring on Mort was to marry him to Ysabelle. One of Death's defining features is that he can't be original and has to copy things he sees (and rarely gets the spirit of the thing correct). He's trying to give Ysabelle the escape she dreams of by playing off the old cliche of the apprentice marrying into the family business.

[Fyraltari]

There is also that Mort's hourglass was running empty because DEATH was about to kill him. For the first time DEATH was about to be a killer rather than just a psychopomp. His duty does not allow him to interfere in deaths he doesn't cause but for the ones he does he may.

Or maybe he is a bit of an hypocrite (looking at Ysabelle and Albert here).

I think it is both.

[Wraith]

Or maybe he is a bit of an hypocrite (looking at Ysabelle and Albert here).

I think you're right. Death had already messed around with Ysabel's hourglass, and look at the trouble it had caused? Arguably, messing around with another that could NOT be fixed so easily as just returning to the world made him realise how big of an error he was about to make.

So, I finished Mort.

You'll find out why Death realises that he shouldn't kill Mort when you read Reaper Man (turns out there is someone else that even Death ultimately answers to, and he needs permission to directly affect mortals' lifespans), and also more so when you read Soul Music.

I won't mention anything about that spoiler - it's hugely significant to the plot of the story, and one very small detail from Mort that will take on huge meaning when you reread it.

[farothel]

There is that.

And on a totally different note: a bit more than one week to DW Con.

[Mightymosy]

Quote this message to find out.

Spoiler: Terry Pratchett

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Text.
So thanks for the explanations. They sound good on first glance, maybe I have to read the last part again and check whether I find it more logical now.

Still some open questions:
If Death wanted Mort to marry Ysabell, why is he angry at Mort for "seducing" her? Which he didnt.

Even though it might be sensible for Mort to choose Ysabelle over Keli, it still came out of the blue. A scene with Mort and Ysabelle having some sort of romantics before that might have helped. The only one I remember is the garden scene....

Also, what about Albert? Whats his deal with Death? What was his plan going back to University?
What happens with him now?

Also, can Death turn other peoples' hourglasses as well?

I'm glad Rincewind is back. He is one of my favourite characters. It sorta cheapens the awesome heroic "end" he had in Sourcery, but I'm happy for him :-)
Do we find out how he managed to come back from the Dungeon Dimensions?

Thanks for the quote blueprint! :-D

Now if anyone can tell me how to change that stupid avatar (on phone) I'm all set :-)

[Friv]

Spoiler: Questions

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I'm glad Rincewind is back. He is one of my favourite characters. It sorta cheapens the awesome heroic "end" he had in Sourcery, but I'm happy for him :-) Do we find out how he managed to come back from the Dungeon Dimensions?

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You'll want to read Eric for that.

[Wraith]

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You'll want to read Eric for that.

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Eric is.... weird. It absolutely explains how Rincewind escapes the Dungeon Dimensions... But then, so does Interesting Times which also features a lot more canonically significant characters and is what gets referred to in later books.

Clearly, Eric happened down one leg of the Trousers of time and Interesting Times/Last Continent/Last Hero happened in another.

[lord_khaine]

Reply on Eric spoiler.

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You got the continuation mixed up Wraith. The events of Interesting Times follow after what takes place in Eric.

It is Eric that explains how Rincewind escapes.

[Lemmy]

Wyrd Sisters

Finished reading "Wyrd Sisters" (took me a bit longer than the other books because I didn't have as much free time). Not as good as the two previous books, but light-years ahead of Equal Rites (the only Discworld so far to actually bore me). Nanny Weatherwax is a blast to read, and Nanny Ogg might be even more fun! Magrat doesn't quite live up to their heights, but is still pretty cool, as is her fool.

In fact, I love how equally comic dramatic the characters and situations are... The fool who found no joy in his job, the mad duke who you pity more than hate, the king's ghost (that stayed around simply because he never even thought about what came next, and only found something to resent after becoming a ghost), the evil duchess (who is devoured by woodland critters, including bunnies)... And Tomjon, the prodigy-actor-turned-king-turned-actor. I love how he displays the "gifts" given to him by the witches, specially Granny Weatherwax ("You really are your father's son." "Yes. I thought I ought to be"). I love how he "escapes his destiny" by taking control of it. I had to re-read a few pages to realize that when Magrat is looking at Tomjon and the Fool, it's because she just noticed they do in fact look similar (and I was honestly surprised at the double-twist of their parentage... That they are brothers... And that their father is most likely the previous fool, not the king!)... That moment when he momentarily considers becoming king to help Vitoller pay for the Disk Theater is very emotional. But Tomjon got a great ending, so I complain...

The Fool had a great arc too, overall. I'm just a bit disappointed that the relationship between Magrat and him is left ambiguous at the end. I hope to find out what happens to them later on...

Well, in any case, I really enjoyed the theme of the book: Make your own destiny. The fool stops stops doing something he hates just because of "destiny", Tomjon continues to do something he loves, despite what "destiny" tells him... And there, at the very end, even Magrat realizes that witches don't always have to do stuff (or not do) stuff just because they are witches. "Bugger destiny!", indeed.

I quite enjoyed the references to MacBeth, Hamlet and King Lear... Which are 3 out of the 4 Shakespeare plays that I actually read... Plus a few other references that I recognize from pop culture-osmosis, but can't actually place them (I know "all the world is a stage" is Shakespeare, but have no idea where it's from).

One last note I'd like to add, is that while it was already pretty clear before, this books makes it indisputable the fact that Sir Terry Pratchett is REALLY GOOD at making the climax of the story really well... Climatic. The scene of the play, specially the part with the Duke finally succumbing to complete madness with a play-dagger was very intense!

Oh yeah... And seeing Death suffer with stage freight was hilarious! And the cameo with the Librarian was great... Freaking ape deserves his own book!

Well... Next is "Pyramids". Let's see where it takes me!

[dehro]

The Fool had a great arc too, overall. I'm just a bit disappointed that the relationship between Magrat and him is left ambiguous at the end. I hope to find out what happens to them later on...

You will.
Minor quibble, it's DEATH, not Death.

[farothel]

You will.
Minor quibble, it's DEATH, not Death.

Indeed you will. I found Wyrd Sisters a bit more tricky, but that's because I don't know much about Shakespeare.

And let's not forget the song about an animal who, compared to a lot of other animals, is very lucky indeed. Terry never created a full version of the Hedgehog song (just some fragments in various books, you'll notice it comes back almost every time Nanny Ogg is 'on stage'), but fans have and versions are circulating around the internet.

this book is also the reason why the main room on the DW cons is called The Dysk (although this year it's called the patrician's palace instead, but you'll get know why when you read Guards! Guards! as that is this year's theme).

[pendell]

The Fool had a great arc too, overall. I'm just a bit disappointed that the relationship between Magrat and him is left ambiguous at the end. I hope to find out what happens to them later on...

I believe that arc is resolved in later books. Here's a hint. You know how the triad of witchcraft is the maiden, the mother, and the crone? That Magrat (the unmarried, idealistic young lady), Nanny (the hearty mother with many children whom she is raising) and Granny (the wise woman past childbearing age) fit each of these tropes?

Well...

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Magrat will have to put aside the 'maiden' title. Heh heh.

Respectfully,

Brian P>

[Calemyr]

Finished reading Wyrd Sisters (took me a bit longer than the other books because I didn't have as much free time). Not as good as the two previous books, but light-years ahead of Equal Rites (the only Discworld so far to actually bore me). Nanny Weatherwax is a blast to read, and Nanny Ogg might be even more fun! Magrat doesn't quite live up to their heights, but is still pretty cool, as is her fool.

Magrat isn't up to their level, it's true. That said, there is a lot more to her than is initially apparent. She seems useless a lot of the time, until something hits her the wrong way and suddenly she, too, can be quite badass. She arguably gets the best moments in the Witches books on a regular basis.

There's a line in one book that nicely spells out the difference between Granny and Magrat.

Spoiler: Don't remember which book.

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Granny knew that the particular herbs didn't matter. All that mattered was that the patient believed they did. That is what made her the superior witch. Magrat knew that they did matter. That was what made her a superior healer.

The Fool had a great arc too, overall. I'm just a bit disappointed that the relationship between Magrat and him is left ambiguous at the end. I hope to find out what happens to them later on...

There's a powerful moment in Lords and Ladies about the fool. It isn't critical to anything, it's doesn't spoil anything, not really, but it's one of those things that really drives home a character.

Spoiler: Lords and Ladies

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One of the characters finds themselves in the Fool's King's bedroom. To their surprise they find the bed unused but a blanket and pillow set out by the door. The character notes that, as a Fool, it was his duty to sleep by the door to his master and that hasn't changed. It's just that now he considers the kingdom his master. That hits me in the gut every time I read it.

Oh yeah... And seeing Death suffer with stage freight was hilarious! And the cameo with the Librarian was great... Freaking ape deserves his own book!

DEATH will be an eternal gem in the series, and only gets better. The Librarian is much the same. His appreciation of theater does become a running gag.

Well... Next is "Pyramids". Let's see where it takes me!

Pyramids is... interesting, let's say. It's not connected to anything outside of a brief time in Ankh-Morpork, which does let you see the city from a genuinely new perspective. It is in one way a fascinating book that takes the world-building in a completely new direction and gives us lots of things we never see elsewhere, and in others a pointless diversion that doesn't really tie into the series proper. I'm quite curious to see which conclusion you come to.

[Iruka]

Spoiler: Lords and Ladies

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One of the characters finds themselves in the Fool's King's bedroom. To their surprise they find the bed unused but a blanket and pillow set out by the door. The character notes that, as a Fool, it was his duty to sleep by the door to his master and that hasn't changed. It's just that now he considers the kingdom his master. That hits me in the gut every time I read it.

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Wow, never interpreted it that way. I just assumed he was used to this sleeping place and had not taken on any allures as a king.

[Wraith]

Reply on Eric spoiler.

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You got the continuation mixed up Wraith. The events of Interesting Times follow after what takes place in Eric.

It is Eric that explains how Rincewind escapes.

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As it turns out, you're right - thank you for pointing out the difference.

I honestly had to go and fetch Interesting Times off the shelf and reread some of it - I had completely forgotten about the island and 'potatoes', and somehow misremembered the beginning of Eric with Rincewind being a poltergeist, being the reason for why he was summoned by the wizards. Still... No worries. She'll be right.

[GloatingSwine]

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Wow, never interpreted it that way. I just assumed he was used to this sleeping place and had not taken on any allures as a king.

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It's a very Pratchettian construction. Verence wasn't sleeping in the same place, he'd changed what side of the door he was sleeping on.

See also: The deepest darkest dungeon of the Patrician's palace. Which side of the door certain things are on is significant yet not immediately obviously so.

[jayem]

Absolutely right. Chronological order is good. Not all the books will be winners, but you never know which ones will strike a chord with you. One person's favorite will be someone else's least, and one person's trash will be another's treasure. That's how life is in general, but it's doubly true on the Disc.

What I'm not sure about is if some of the bits I liked and didn't like would have been different if I'd read out of order.

I didn't like the very end books much but if they'd got their first then

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Maybe the more tediously preachy bits would have gone undetected until their 'repitition' in the earlier books.
Maybe the inversions and plots would have been more original
Maybe the 19th and C A-M would be more natural
etc..

[farothel]

What I'm not sure about is if some of the bits I liked and didn't like would have been different if I'd read out of order.

I didn't like the very end books much but if they'd got their first then

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Maybe the more tediously preachy bits would have gone undetected until their 'repitition' in the earlier books.
Maybe the inversions and plots would have been more original
Maybe the 19th and C A-M would be more natural
etc..

Maybe, but you might also have missed some recurring things, especially with Vimes, who evolved a lot in all his books. The stuff with Moist is also better if read in order, or not everything will be clear.

[lord_khaine]

Vimes evolution is one of the better thing.
Or the progression of Rincewinds mini-story.

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I do like that he gets a happy ending of sort, at least finding a measure of peace as unpaid Professor of Cruel and unusual Geology.

[Eldan]

See, I still think Rincewind's best ending was Sourcery. I mean, I don't hate the later books he's in, and Last Hero is a favourite, but...

It shows him as the only one willing to see the Sourcerer as a scared kid and trying to do something about it.
It shows him finally growing a bit of a spine and being the only one willing to go in with his half brick in a sock.
It shows him sacrificing himself for the world.

It's the end of his character arc, and it would have been fine if it ended there.

[veti]

It's the end of his character arc, and it would have been fine if it ended there.

Not at all. Rincewind has a lot of character development after that.

It's his time in the Dungeon Dimensions that turns him into the world-beating coward we see in the later books. (Which later becomes his defining personality trait, or at least the one that the author harps on most persistently - to the point where it's hard to remember he was, once, something else. But he was.)

Viewing Rincewind's entire career:

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Back in 'The Colour of Magic', he was not only a wizard who couldn't do magic - he was a wizard who didn't really want to do it. He thought there must be a better way, dreaming idly of "harnessing the lightning" and suchlike. Much of the rest of his career is spent on exactly that - creating magical effects by other means, doing magic without magic.

In 'The Light Fantastic', the Spell uses Rincewind to do magic; for a moment Rincewind thinks he's doing it, but really he knows better. In 'Sourcery', it's the hat. In 'Eric' - he finds he can just snap his fingers and miraculous things happen. This baffles him completely, because he knows he's not doing it, but undeniably it's happening.

In 'Interesting Times', it's the Lady. Rincewind plays the part of the Great Wizzard by, basically, rolling natural 20 after natural 20 to benefit from the most implausible of coincidences, with (to him) terrifying consistency.

In 'The Last Continent', Rincewind knows he's a plaything - not of the gods, but something far more fundamental. I think he's become self-aware: on some level, he now knows he's the central character in a story being told by someone else. That's why there's no escaping his fate. Of course he still tries (to make a point about free will, I suspect), but he never expects it to work. Remember when the road bandit grabs his hat? Rincewind yells "You give me back my hat or there'll be trouble!". That's not a threat - Rincewind is in no position to make threats, he has absolutely nothing to threaten with. It's a prophecy - which gets fulfilled pretty much immediately. Rincewind never does magic, but - as he now knows - it doesn't matter: something very like magic keeps happening around him all the same.

That's peak Rincewind, I think. After TLC he slides into a bit of a rut. TLH and the 'Science of...' books are, narratively, just not very interesting to me.

[Manga Shoggoth]

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... the 'Science of...' books are, narratively, just not very interesting to me.

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Oh yes... My big problem with them was that they tried to be both Discworld Story and Popular Science Book, and as a result failed to be either.