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Thread: Reading Discworld!
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2018-08-30, 05:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reading Discworld!
I'm not sure that he had much to do with the Long Earth series other than the odd chat with Stephen Baxter. I think even his own books were being mostly ghostwritten by that point. Most of the non-Discworld stuff he wrote himself is from earlier in his career, mid 90s or earlier.
I suppose it wouldn't be accurate to say that he didn't want to write Discworld. More that Discworld changed to the point that it was practically something else, which kind of suggests he used the setting out of convenience for whatever story he wanted to tell (and because it guaranteed an audience), rather than because the stories actually needed to be set there.
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2018-08-30, 06:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reading Discworld!
Avatar by GryffonDurime. Thanks!
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2018-08-30, 06:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reading Discworld!
At the end his books were dictated to his PA, who then put them on paper as Terry had trouble with typing (he said at an interview that one of the first signs he got about his disease was that letters would disappear from his vision, making typing hard). But he still dictated the books himself. Are they then written by him? I would say yes, even if he didn't do the actual act of writing himself.
As to the other comment, yes the setting has changed, but I'm not sure if that is because he just wrote stuff in Discworld because it was convenient. The Discworld books were written over the course of 30+ years, and people change in such a time. Some could have been, but I'm not really convinced. Terry did say that after a while he had trouble placing books in Ankh-Morpork because then they quickly became Vimes books, even if he didn't want them to.
As to stories becoming more British, again, it's not what I read in the books. In fact, Wyrd Sisters is based heavily on Shakespeare, which is about as British as you can get (and since I'm not a fan of Shakespeare, I'm not a big fan of that book either), while for instance the story of a girl joining the army in disguise (Monstrous Regiment) is quite common in many cultures. Even Disney has done a movie on it, so quite a lot of people should recognise the basics of that book.Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett
"Magic can turn a frog into a prince. Science can turn a frog into a Ph.D. and you still have the frog you started with." Terry Pratchett
"I will not yield to evil, unless she's cute."
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2018-08-30, 06:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reading Discworld!
Besides that the Disc is changing is a plot point in several books.
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2018-08-30, 06:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reading Discworld!
Hm.. I feel like not chiming in on the "how much did he write himself at the end" discussion... I think most people agree there was some decline towards the end but cause and extent are too speculative for me.
On the previous topic: yes, reading Nobby as extremely sarcastic when he is with Colon greatly enhances the character, but then at times he does stupid things which make that interpretation highly unlikely.
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2018-08-30, 06:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reading Discworld!
there were several examples across many of the later books where Ankh-Morpork was changing, evolving and "modernising".. and the Discworld with it..
without going into spoilers, I think it's fair to say that a number of technological advancements (discworld flavoured of course) bring an element of steampunkery to the general atmosphere, which is in turn a fertile environment for Pratchett's satire on roundworld.
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2018-08-30, 08:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reading Discworld!
I have on occasion reread the Watch books and tried to interpret Nobby Nobbs not as sarcastic, but genuinely as stupid and uncomplicated as he presents himself.
It's an interesting experience. It changes the dynamic between him and Sgt.Colon into something more traditionally comedic rather than "British Comedy". With Sarcastic Nobby it's a lot more like Edmund Blackadder having a devious conversation at the expense of the Crown Prince, or Basil Fawlty politely insulting one of his guests; with Idiot Nobby it's more like Laurel and Hardy, or another similar double act wherein each competes to be more inept than the other.
It's very likely deliberate - that he can be either or both depending on the situation. Pretty much everything that happens in Jingo is an exercise in how he flips from one to the other, and then also has some genuine moments in between.Last edited by Wraith; 2018-08-30 at 08:36 AM.
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2018-08-30, 08:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reading Discworld!
Well, every time a Wild Idea hits the Disc, it leaves a mark even if the Idea itself doesn't stick. The repeated blows gradually change the Disc. If you hate the evolution of Discworld, you should be a major fan of Leonard, who serves as a lightning rod for Wild Ideas and keeps the damage to a minimum.
Personally, I'm a fan of parallel evolution, the idea of a world evolving similar to ours with different initial settings. When I run table top games, I like to use a "magitek" setting, where people employ their existing magical elements to inform their setting, like using a Decanter of Endless Water or three to serve as the foundation of a city's plumbing system, or an army of clockwork insects that build and maintain a fortress, or magical gates being reproduced and institutionalized as a public transportation system. That kind of thing fascinates me, so I like how the Disc develops as a natural evolution of the things that happen there.Spoiler: My inventory:
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Originally Posted by Kairos Theodosian
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2018-08-30, 08:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reading Discworld!
The first two times or so I read those books, I always took Nobby at face value, as an idiot. Then, you have lawful grumpy older man idiot Colon and quirky criminal younger man idiot Nobby. Reading Nobby as sarcastic was a bit of a revelation.
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2018-08-30, 09:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reading Discworld!
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2018-08-30, 09:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reading Discworld!
Spoiler: My inventory:
1 Sentient Sword
1 Jammy Dodger (I was promised tea)
1 Godwin Point.
Originally Posted by Kairos Theodosian
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2018-08-30, 11:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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2018-08-30, 11:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reading Discworld!
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2018-08-30, 11:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reading Discworld!
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2018-08-30, 12:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reading Discworld!
I was always pretty disappointed that Pratchett didn't kill Vetenari. It felt like the logical conclusion of the books, and the novels started pointing towards the torch passing with Men at Arms. He steadily build up characters to replace the old oligarchy, have Vimes develop into the unimpeachable man, and then just never actually took the plunge.
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2018-08-30, 01:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reading Discworld!
Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett
"Magic can turn a frog into a prince. Science can turn a frog into a Ph.D. and you still have the frog you started with." Terry Pratchett
"I will not yield to evil, unless she's cute."
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2018-08-30, 01:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-08-30, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reading Discworld!
If someone was to succeed Vetinari it would be Moist Von Lipwig with William de Worde and Vimes/CArrot (Vimes is not that young) keeping him in check.
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2018-08-30, 01:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reading Discworld!
I think the last step would have been creating an independent judiciary, which is something Pratchett didn't quite around to. In everything else you can see Vetinari building the civil institutions needed to allow Ankh-Morpork to operate without him at the center, most especially allowing and aiding the growth of the Watch as an actual police force and not just the personal enforcers of the city's power groups. But the office of the Patrician is still shown as the city's highest judge and office of last appeal, which is something Vetinari probably wanted to change as part of his legacy to the city - as long as that still held than it would only take one Lord Snapcase to plunge the city right back into the Bad Old Days.
And yes, Vimes would go quite mad trying to govern Ankh-Morpork.
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2018-08-30, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-08-30, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reading Discworld!
Oh, that's priceless.
Lipwig: Are you people mad?! I'm a con artist, not a politician!
Vimes: I fail to see a distinction.
I don't think he wanted an independent judiciary, for the same reasons he disliked democracy. A tyrant can get things done. A governing body of elected officials can not. A bad tyrant can get bad things done, yes, but heroes always get them ousted eventually, while a good tyrant can do a world of good.
In other words, he didn't want to work on government, he wanted the city to function regardless of the government.Spoiler: My inventory:
1 Sentient Sword
1 Jammy Dodger (I was promised tea)
1 Godwin Point.
Originally Posted by Kairos Theodosian
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2018-08-30, 02:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett
"Magic can turn a frog into a prince. Science can turn a frog into a Ph.D. and you still have the frog you started with." Terry Pratchett
"I will not yield to evil, unless she's cute."
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2018-08-30, 07:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reading Discworld!
'F' is the fire that rains from the Sky
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2018-08-31, 10:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reading Discworld!
I don't think Vetinari has done much at all to prepare for his own death.
Spoiler: The Truth, Going Postal, Night Watch, later booksThe later city books do show the beginnings of growth of city institutions. But what they don't show is any notion, on Vetinari's part, of the concept of pluralism - the idea that political power should be divided between several centres, not all concentrated in one body.
For all the modernisation, V never encourages anyone to think of themselves as having authority in their own right. Every time someone seems set to assert some kind of independence, he takes his own steps to make his attitude clear: independence is great, but just remember who's in charge, OK? And Pratchett, in what I feel is a disappointing narrative cop-out, always endorses this position, by fielding a villain who unites Vetinari with his potential rival in common cause.
A partial exception comes up very late, when Moist suddenly acquires real power in the form of a golem army. But he does that very much behind Vetinari's back.
I agree that Moist is Vetinari's natural successor. Vimes is too old, and Carrot too - royal. But at best, he's set to be another benign despot. There's a long, long way to go before Ankh-Morpork is ready for any other kind of government.Last edited by veti; 2018-08-31 at 10:22 PM.
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2018-09-04, 09:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reading Discworld!
I'm so glad I'm not the only one who feels this way.
I've said it before but as someone who found the heroic/medieval fantasy trappings of the early books a big part of their appeal the pseudo-steampunk Disc of the later series lost some of its charm, even if I still think they are objectively good books (I think the Moist books in particular were hard for me to get into thanks to this.)
Glad you liked Eric Lemmy. I reread it very recently and while it isn't my favourite Rincewind book it was fun.
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2018-09-04, 07:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reading Discworld!
Watchmen: THUD!
Spoiler: ExplanationI'm kind of surprised that, in reading this thread, nobody's named this as their favorite. While Night Watch is an excellent examination of Vimes as an embodiment of what it means to be a good policeman, I've always found THUD!'s portrayal of Vimes as a father to be far more compelling and interesting. There's always one scene that makes me break down, and it's not the Where is My Cow scene; it's the line: "A short dark figure was at the top of the stairs and disappearing into the nursery." There's a sheer terror, a gut-clenching fear that has my heart in my chest when I read that line because it's difficult to separate myself from the character at that point. They're going for my family, for my son, and even after a dozen times reading I still feel the urge to weep with both relief and joy at young Sam's rescue.
Plus, Willikins is a boss and I love him.
Rincewind/Wizards: Interesting Times.
Death/Susan: Hogfather
SpoilerI maintain that "Humans need stories to be human; to be the place where the fallen angel meets the rising ape" is one of the best lines in the entire series.
The Witches: Maskerade or Lords and Ladies, depending on which aspect of story telling I want to explore.
Moist: Going Postal
One-offs: The Truth. I dunno, I kind of feel that The Truth is in the same continuity as the Moist series. It's got the same theme of new ideas, new industrialization, and the logical impacts that has on a fantasy world.I run a Let's Play channel! Check it out!
Currently, we're playing through New Vegas as Gabriel de la Cruz, merchant and mercenary extraordinaire!
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2018-09-05, 09:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reading Discworld!
The Truth is a particularly good book. The characters are really interesting, the conflict a wonderful mix of personal and epic, and the climax really drives it home. Otto is also one of my favorite characters to read aloud, rivaled only by Teatime and Rob Anybody's crew.
Spoiler: Moist vs De WordeI wouldn't say it's in the Moist vein, though. Except as a foil to Moist, possibly. Moist's books are about a con man using his talents to incite civic change, whether he wants to or not. The Truth, however, is about De Worde - a man who knows what he wants to be and what he most certainly doesn't want to be. Moist thrives on a challenge, De Worde is driven by his passions. Both are tied to Wild Ideas, but Moist tends to be the victim of several them (and struggling to survive them as they drag him in) while De Worde devotes himself to the pursuit of a specific one. Finally, De Worde finds contentment in his profession, while Moist becomes nigh suicidally bored when he gets too good at any given profession.Spoiler: My inventory:
1 Sentient Sword
1 Jammy Dodger (I was promised tea)
1 Godwin Point.
Originally Posted by Kairos Theodosian
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2018-09-05, 01:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-09-05, 02:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reading Discworld!
Spoiler: VetinariI don't think he's a vampire. More to the point, I think he actively wants to avoid setting up a government to follow his departure for a few reasons:
1) He doesn't want to set up obstacles to his own progressive agenda, which extra government will inevitably do.
2) He firmly believes that the first step in remaining despot is to make one not being despot unthinkable. Setting up a government to succeed him is exactly what he doesn't want to do - that is raising the question of him not being around anymore, after all.
3) He knows full well that all three of his most suitable successors (Carrot, Vimes, and Moist) would never take the position willingly. The only way to force any of them to act is to have his demise dip the city in complete and utter chaos. To save the city, any of them would take the job if forced to, cursing Vetinari's name all the way.
In other words, planning for his own displacement is not productive and in fact would be a hindrance. Instead, he uses his political capital to build the city up as much as he humanly can before he dies, and leaves it to the "good guys" to sort the government out for themselves afterwards.
Now that I think of it, Vetinari's philosophy makes it clear who he'd want for a successor. Yep, it's Moist. Carrot and Vimes are "good guys" and are thus well suited for bringing down "bad guys" but not for running a government. Moist is most certainly not a "good guy", albeit a con artist rather than an assassin, and indeed shows an exceptional talent for administration to the point that he routinely works himself out of a job. I was laughing at the idea earlier, but I think Patrician Lipwig seems like it would have been the ultimate endgame for Watch books. Given that Vimes and Vetinari are roughly the same age, however, Vimes playing a major role would be counter-productive for a changing of the guard ending.
So... that's my new headcanon. Lipwig in the oblong office, with Carrot quietly but firmly "advising" him from the shadows. Pity that book will never be written.Spoiler: My inventory:
1 Sentient Sword
1 Jammy Dodger (I was promised tea)
1 Godwin Point.
Originally Posted by Kairos Theodosian
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2018-09-05, 04:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reading Discworld!
SpoilerI personally thought they were going for a council of new bloods approach. They slowly but consistently reduce the power of both the nobles and the guilds, and place new meritocrats like Moist, Vimes, De Word, King and Stibbons into places of power. Even the old gangs are being replaced by the Troll mafia.
Vetenari's plan seems to be to slowly gather the reins of power into the hands of the government and government back enterprises (takes control of crime fighting (several books), banks (making money), communications (Going Postal), transportation (raising steam), and is working on industrial factories powered by the device.
The rise of guilded age industrialists and expanded government was replacing the old guilds and nobles and then the series ended.