Building a no win situation with purpose

[DMThac0]

From forgotten realms wiki:
You could use something like that to turn villagers against the party, the BBEG has come through in a time of need and shared the bounty. All the BBEG humbly asks for in return is a worthless piece of an artifact that celebrates the deity who provided all this food for the needy.

The players just learned about the Feast of Stags, they're already concerned about the ramifications of the baddie completing the artifact. They've come up with a great idea that the villain is going to use the Feast of Stags to resurrect Malar.

This highlights something that always annoyed me in superhero storylines. BBEGs always go and kidnap someone important to the hero. This makes it far less likely that the BBEG will ever carry out their threat because if they do, they will no longer have a hostage and will have an extremely motivated hero after them. Most heroes will be sufficiently motivated by threats against random people, with the added bonus that there are a lot more of them if you have to follow through on some.

Sigreid and Lunali...I can't thank you both enough for this point..and that wonderful comic. It's also one of the things that annoys me about that threat in comics/movies.

[MaxWilson]

What, exactly, is the macguffin? There might be some fun things you could do involving it- ways to force its use, which in turn would lead it to the villain's hands.

Random thought: generally I'm not a fan of railroading or "forced lose" scenarios--I'd rather just come up with a villainous "give it to me or die" monologue and save it for a spot when the PCs are naturally in hot water. I.e. I'd rather use it as a deus ex machina rescue instead of a forced loss. Also, I don't think "I'm going to kill some random urchin you've never met" is a credible threat for scaring PCs into giving up an important artifact, because the PCs perfectly well that that threat can be reused against them at any time by practically anybody, and they'll know that setting a precedent would be bad.

However, it sure would be amusing to DM a scenario where the PCs don't know what the MacGuffin is or what the stakes are. "Give me that green spoon you found in an abandoned hut last week or a random urchin dies" is a pretty good way of calling attention to the important of the MacGuffin in the first place, especially if the random urchin is right there in front of you looking scared. Do you let the urchin die for the sake of the green spoon that you didn't even think was important until just now? Do you give up the green spoon to save his life (and have him become a friendly NPC/henchman) when you don't know what the bad guy is going to do with it?

I think both choices are defensible and interesting, and to me that signals that it might be fun event to throw at the players, just to watch them squirm.

[DMThac0]

Random thought: generally I'm not a fan of railroading or "forced lose" scenarios--

Generally I'm not one to use this either, I'd rather let the players paint their way into a corner or just let pieces fall into place to further along a story. However, in this particular instance, the players have not done anything to further their part in the story so I am simply making the villain proceed as he would normally.

However, it sure would be amusing to DM a scenario where the PCs don't know what the MacGuffin is or what the stakes are. "Give me that green spoon you found in an abandoned hut last week or a random urchin dies" is a pretty good way of calling attention to the important of the MacGuffin in the first place, especially if the random urchin is right there in front of you looking scared. Do you let the urchin die for the sake of the green spoon that you didn't even think was important until just now? Do you give up the green spoon to save his life (and have him become a friendly NPC/henchman) when you don't know what the bad guy is going to do with it?

I think both choices are defensible and interesting, and to me that signals that it might be fun event to throw at the players, just to watch them squirm.

The players do not know the actual power of the artifact, so your idea has some merit. I can definitely try to put this spin on the whole scenario.

[GreyBlack]

PC's get the call that the BBEG has kidnapped a princess. BBEG happens to be the ruler of a nearby sovereign nation, so technically getting her back could be an international incident.

PC's go in and find out that the princess went willingly with the BBEG, who is now infuriated that the PC's violated his national sovereignty and now threatens war against his neighbor for this. PC's must now choose how to become involved in this conflict.

[LaserFace]

I posted this elsewhere and I'd like to get the playground involved too.

I've been building up a villain in my campaign, so far with good results, but now I'm struggling to find a way to pull off his most heinous deed.

The idea is; The adventuring party has an item in their possession that the villain needs. His initial attempts to infiltrate and persuade them have failed miserably. Two attempts to kill the adventuring party have been thwarted, and now he's just done with this. He intends to put one of the adventurers into a life or death situation where their only salvation is to relinquish this item that he desires.

The issue I have is that my players are smart, they're crafty, and they're good at finding ways around, or through, problems. I'm not complaining about that, it keeps me on my toes, and I enjoy the constant need to stretch myself to accommodate them.

What I would like is to see if I could get help creating a no win situation for the players that has an emotional tug on them. For example in a show I watched recently the protagonist had to rescue a little girl, the villain allowed the little girl to be found, as the protagonist was rescuing the girl the villain trapped them both. The villain then told the protagonist to reveal information that was critical, the protagonist refused, the villain then turned on a refrigeration unit. If the protagonist didn't reveal the information he and the girl would die. If it were the protagonist it would be fine, just die, but the girl, he couldn't let an innocent die.

I'm stumbling around with this one, I was wondering if any of you might have an idea or two?

Okay, so, first off: never make no-win scenarios. DMs shouldn't be deciding the outcome before it happens. Concentrate on an ultimatum, the stakes, and some possible outcomes. You might tip the scales in a direction, but if you're not having outcomes follow from player action then you're making a mistake.

Second: If you want emotional content, it has to be earned. You can't just say "give the bad guy the win or a little girl dies" or something along those lines, and expect anyone to be anything other than annoyed. According to you, they've already beaten the guy at every turn like some Saturday morning cartoon villain; why wouldn't they just be able to thwart him again? He will need to display a greater level of precision or competence than previously.

Maybe the villain has learned about NPCs the party cares about. Maybe he's learned about another quest the party is on, and has found an opportunity to thwart them when they're vulnerable. Or maybe he just now has greater power, because his desperation has led him to make more sinister alliances (and maybe these have even come at great cost to himself). Whatever the case is, he has to show some kind of credible growth as a character. And, the villain's actions should be directly related to PC goals and motivations. Don't make the person at risk just any child; make it a blood relation to a PC, or an important NPC. Don't have repercussions in just any town or city; make it at Home Base. And so forth.

[DMThac0]

Hope I'm not too late to the thread.

Anywho, perhaps you don't even need a no win situation when trickery and deceit might serve better.

There's a lot of things you can do with these sorts of scenarios. A lot of good ideas were mentioned, and methinks you could combine several of them for great effect and hopefully a good time for all.

Never too late for input, I have at least a month or so before this is going to come to pass. You've given a lot of information and yea, I plan on putting a little of many of these ideas into the final plan. I will be posting the rough draft to see what ya'll think too.

Okay, so, first off: never make no-win scenarios. DMs shouldn't be deciding the outcome before it happens. Concentrate on an ultimatum, the stakes, and some possible outcomes. You might tip the scales in a direction, but if you're not having outcomes follow from player action then you're making a mistake.

Second: If you want emotional content, it has to be earned.

Whatever the case is, he has to show some kind of credible growth as a character. And, the villain's actions should be directly related to PC goals and motivations. Don't make the person at risk just any child; make it a blood relation to a PC, or an important NPC. Don't have repercussions in just any town or city; make it at Home Base. And so forth.

Part 1: I'm not going to dictate the outcome, I do not want to take agency away from my players. I want to create a situation where no matter the decision they make they feel heavy-hearted after the fact. I won't force my players' hands, and that's why I like the ideas you've all given me, they help me figure out what may happen from different scenarios.

Part 2: Emotional content is earned, very very important point and not missed by me. I agree that there is going to be some need to present the villain as having "grown" from his past mistakes, I appreciate that input.

Part 3: Here I have a bit of a problem, but it's not so much in your approach as making the idea a reality, but that's due to the progression of my players. They don't have much of a home base, more of locations that they've found warm welcome in. I am rather drawn to the idea of giving part of himself up to become more powerful, that could be something that I can tie in to other things happening in the world and tangentially to him.

---

To all the playgrounders, you've all given me much to think about and play with, keep it coming!

[Rixitichil]

Possibility:
If you want a proper Xanthar's Gambit style situation, have the villain leak a false way to destroy the Artefact.
Which will actually create it, giving them a last opportunity to launch a final attack and co-opt the ritual, or, if they fail, have a PC ascend and take on Malar's Mantle, in effect giving the honour to the superior hunter.

[DMThac0]

So here's the plan, tentatively, based on the feedback you all have given me:

Leadin:
The players are entering a major Dwarven city, Ironhaven where an event is being held that has people from all over the continent coming to attend. They've already seen Elves, Humans, and Halflings showing up by large caravans. They are escorting a caravan from the capital city of the humans, Whitebridge, to Ironhaven. This gives the opening for the villain to create mischief.

Setup:
One of the players is excited at the prospect of meeting her long lost friend and childhood crush when they reach Ironhaven. I'm going to have this friend on the fence about joining ranks with the villain's circle. He'll express a task he's been given, retrieving the missing artifact piece, and talk at length about how it's going to be used to save people. I know the players will react to this, and depending on the reaction I'll have this friend ask one of two questions: can I have the piece, or can I have your help bringing this piece where it needs to go.

Ending:
Either direction this heads the players will learn that this friend has been duped by the circle. If the friend gets the piece, they'll start to see the results of the finished artifact, cities attacked, outposts being razed, etc. If the friend joins the group, they'll be witness to the exchange and have the classic cinematic moment where they hear the monologue of the villain as they see the final piece being put into place. When the artifact is finished, there is a test of power, the friend is turned into a lycanthrope and attacks the party, allowing the villain to escape.

Again this is just a rough idea, so I'm up for adjustments.

[Cybren]

Don’t contrive a “no-win scenario”. Let them, with full knowledge of the consequences, put themselves into an incredibly dangerous situation that is stacked against them. If they succeed- great! They won the day through clever thinking and their characters strength. If they fail, they are aware of the consequences and have to choose to accept them or to give up [thingy].