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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: If a player wanted to Multiclass as warlock: would you make them find a patron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daithi View Post
    I'm assuming that was intentional, but either way, you get a thumbs up for making me laugh.
    It's a magical language. Although it's prolly closer to "Romanes eunt domus".
    Trust but verify. There's usually a reason why I believe you can't do something.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: If a player wanted to Multiclass as warlock: would you make them find a patron?

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeJ View Post
    What do you mean by character concept? To me it sounds like you're not talking about the character at all, just their build.
    I meant it in the broadest way possible. What a character does or can do and how, i.e. the mechanical build, is as much a part of the concept (as I meant the term) as the personality and history and everything else.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: If a player wanted to Multiclass as warlock: would you make them find a patron?

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeJ View Post
    What do you mean by character concept? To me it sounds like you're not talking about the character at all, just their build.
    That's exactly what they're saying... there are those people who want to use a class mechanically, without any of the localized fluff. You build it, using the proven design skeleton of mechanical classes, then put your own fluff around it. For example:
    • Can't use firearms in your world, but want to play an hedge wizard/gunslinger combo? Have a revolver shaped arcane focus, and play a "Tome warlock", with EB casting as "bullets" (Rays aren't that different), and ritual casting.
    • Want to play Captain America, Spiderman or another superhero-esque character that fights hand to hand without armor? Play a monk, but refluff ki as something like Cinematic Action points or something. Doubly so if your DM allows you to use a Shield as a Kensei weapon, and use the Agile Parry feature to mechanically represent Cap switching between using the shield as a shield, vs using it as a melee weapon.

    The first is just using the warlock chassis to represent a "gun firing multiple bullets" while also having spell casting and ritual casting... it really has nothing to do with the Fluff of warlocks, including patron. They'll still have a patron, mechanicallly, but it wouldn't be a thing in the game.
    The second is using the Monk Chassis to represent that comic book skill of being hard to hit and/or kill and hit things with fists. It may have nothing to do with any of the fluff of monks, including Ki, Ways, et cetera.
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    "I summon a bunch of cows."
    "Herd."
    "What?"
    "Herd of cows."
    "Of course I've heard of cows. I'm not an idiot."
    "No, I mean a cow herd."
    "I don't care if a cow heard, I said nothing to be ashamed of!"
    PEACH it, Brothas & Sistas!
    5e Warlock Patron based on Fullmetal Alchemist: The Gate of Truth
    5e Warlock Patron Based on the Iron Druid Chronicles: Gaia
    5e Roguish Archetype based on Ant-Man & The Wasp: Quantum Trickster

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: If a player wanted to Multiclass as warlock: would you make them find a patron?

    I expect my players to hang the lampshade on their character choices. They don't have to do much, but they have to do something.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: If a player wanted to Multiclass as warlock: would you make them find a patron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vogie View Post
    That's exactly what they're saying... there are those people who want to use a class mechanically, without any of the localized fluff. You build it, using the proven design skeleton of mechanical classes, then put your own fluff around it. For example:
    • Can't use firearms in your world, but want to play an hedge wizard/gunslinger combo? Have a revolver shaped arcane focus, and play a "Tome warlock", with EB casting as "bullets" (Rays aren't that different), and ritual casting.
    • Want to play Captain America, Spiderman or another superhero-esque character that fights hand to hand without armor? Play a monk, but refluff ki as something like Cinematic Action points or something. Doubly so if your DM allows you to use a Shield as a Kensei weapon, and use the Agile Parry feature to mechanically represent Cap switching between using the shield as a shield, vs using it as a melee weapon.

    The first is just using the warlock chassis to represent a "gun firing multiple bullets" while also having spell casting and ritual casting... it really has nothing to do with the Fluff of warlocks, including patron. They'll still have a patron, mechanicallly, but it wouldn't be a thing in the game.
    The second is using the Monk Chassis to represent that comic book skill of being hard to hit and/or kill and hit things with fists. It may have nothing to do with any of the fluff of monks, including Ki, Ways, et cetera.
    In which case their character concept would help determine what actions have to happen in the game in order to obtain the abilities they want. In any case, I'm not going to have new capabilities simply appear with only a handwave.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I've tallied up all the points for this thread, and consulted with the debate judges, and the verdict is clear: JoeJ wins the thread.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: If a player wanted to Multiclass as warlock: would you make them find a patron?

    A teifling shadow monk wanted to multiclass warlock.

    His mother made a deal with a succubus to have sons. But not of her blood. He was one of the birthed (his older brother twin killed his mother)

    After they had met and fought, the brother won but the succubus interfered (she didn’t like her blood fighting)

    Teleported him (by using shadows) to her keep in the shadowfell

    “If you ever need help, whisper my name and I will grant you power.”

    Basically:
    Build it into your campaign. It’s as much your responsibility as it is theirs

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: If a player wanted to Multiclass as warlock: would you make them find a patron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Desteplo View Post
    A teifling shadow monk wanted to multiclass warlock.

    His mother made a deal with a succubus to have sons. But not of her blood. He was one of the birthed (his older brother twin killed his mother)

    After they had met and fought, the brother won but the succubus interfered (she didn’t like her blood fighting)

    Teleported him (by using shadows) to her keep in the shadowfell

    “If you ever need help, whisper my name and I will grant you power.”

    Basically:
    Build it into your campaign. It’s as much your responsibility as it is theirs
    Agreed.

    I suppose I should rephrase my answer. As a DM, I would ask my player how they made the Pact to become a Warlock. If they didn't have an answer for me, as a DM, I say that, if they or their character couldn't figure out how the Pact was made, that I might figure something out. From there, I would maybe introduce the Patron as an NPC at some point who might give the PC a quest, making it obvious that this is their patron and that they might need to serve this matter as per the Pact. Maybe even explain to the PC what they have to do to maintain this Pact, and integrate it organically into the narrative.

    That said, I would never allow a player to take Warlock without at least giving them an opportunity to figure it out. To me, classes aren't just bundles of mechanics; they do mean something. But that's just my deal.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

    Where did you start yours?

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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: If a player wanted to Multiclass as warlock: would you make them find a patron?

    I would. A Patron is a valuable roleplaying asset in addition to altering the entire flavor of the class. What's more, you're expected to have a patron at level one, so choosing a patron should not be optional or delay-able. I wouldn't make it necessary to track them down, since anything powerful enough to grant spells is also strong enough to answer your call, but I do expect my players to have a name for their patron. I also prefer to establish what is expected from the character, and what is granted by the patron. Obviously, a GOO warlock will not have the same sort of pact that a Fiend warlock will, but both will function as warlocks with invocations and pact magic. I like to think that pact magic actually draws on the magical nature of the pact itself, and invocations are like clauses in the pact or things you demand from reality in your patron's name.


    Recently, I had a player decide that they wanted to become Fey. Because they're high enough level for such a goal to be feasible, I offered that they could find an archfey patron, level in warlock, and request it as their boon. In exchange, they would be expected to complete a quest to prove their devotion and to swear fealty to the archfey they chose. Fey are fickle and timeless, so there is no urgency to the quest, but they will not get to be fey until they have leveled to warlock 3, and also completed their quest. The player agreed, understanding that saying no would make the goal nearly impossible but also considering the requirements to be reasonable for their character.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: If a player wanted to Multiclass as warlock: would you make them find a patron?

    One thing to keep in mind is that not all Pacts are big, important affaires.

    You could become a Warlock by giving an interesting magic item, or by meditating the nature of some strange stars, or by internaly begging for help from anyone as you're in danger.

    Those are important moments for the character, certainly, but in itself the event isn't exceptional. Until the Patron establish contact with the character, or the reverse, that is.

    So yeah, a Warlock needs a Patron for the initial spark of power, but finding a Patron doesn't need to be an high-in-drama quest.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: If a player wanted to Multiclass as warlock: would you make them find a patron?

    We're pretty character-driven as a group. So, for multiclassing, as a DM, I request to be told ahead of time so I can work it into the game. I'll then drop something or someone into the game to make it more interesting and narrative, rather than just new numbers on the sheet.

    I also ask them to accept that there can be new plot hooks coming from this new direction.

    Our group is really chill, self-selecting to be up for this sort of thing, and enjoys the ways I run those things, so it works out.
    I swear, 1 handed quarterstaves are 5e's spiked chain. - Rainbownaga
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: If a player wanted to Multiclass as warlock: would you make them find a patron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    One thing to keep in mind is that not all Pacts are big, important affaires.

    You could become a Warlock by giving an interesting magic item, or by meditating the nature of some strange stars, or by internaly begging for help from anyone as you're in danger.

    Those are important moments for the character, certainly, but in itself the event isn't exceptional. Until the Patron establish contact with the character, or the reverse, that is.

    So yeah, a Warlock needs a Patron for the initial spark of power, but finding a Patron doesn't need to be an high-in-drama quest.
    I'll agree to a point. The Patron is still an entity with its own desires and whims, and the power does flow from a pact with this patron. In my reading, you don't have to intentionally make the pact; that can be something as deliberate as a contract with Mephistopheles or as simple as a Fey likes how you look and decides to simply bestow power. That said, there is still a bestower of that power, and at least some mediation on how that power was bestowed would, to my mind, create a deeper and more fully fleshed out character.

    WebDM did a great episode on Warlocks and different types of relationship between the warlock and their patron that I would recommend.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

    Where did you start yours?

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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Tanarii's Avatar

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    Default Re: If a player wanted to Multiclass as warlock: would you make them find a patron?

    Totally would depend on the game I was running.

    - official play? Multiclass however you like.

    - my ongoing gamestore campaign? No Multiclassing allowed

    - "soda and pretzels" one shot home game? Multiclass however you like. Leveling up can happen right after a fight for all I care. Ding!

    - "serious" one shot home game with downtime? Explain your Multiclassing justification as during downtime, or pre-establish it before the game begins.

    - no downtime, every day of the characters is played? C'mon now, I'm not crazy. Who does that?

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: If a player wanted to Multiclass as warlock: would you make them find a patron?

    We completely ignore the whole Patron fluff of the warlock, simplest that way.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: If a player wanted to Multiclass as warlock: would you make them find a patron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spacehamster View Post
    We completely ignore the whole Patron fluff of the warlock, simplest that way.
    So basically a sorcerer with a different mechanic?
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I've tallied up all the points for this thread, and consulted with the debate judges, and the verdict is clear: JoeJ wins the thread.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: If a player wanted to Multiclass as warlock: would you make them find a patron?

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeJ View Post
    So basically a sorcerer with a different mechanic?
    Inasmuch as most classes can be reduced to "another class, but with a different mechanic". Sorcerers are just wizards with a different mechanic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    "I summon a bunch of cows."
    "Herd."
    "What?"
    "Herd of cows."
    "Of course I've heard of cows. I'm not an idiot."
    "No, I mean a cow herd."
    "I don't care if a cow heard, I said nothing to be ashamed of!"
    PEACH it, Brothas & Sistas!
    5e Warlock Patron based on Fullmetal Alchemist: The Gate of Truth
    5e Warlock Patron Based on the Iron Druid Chronicles: Gaia
    5e Roguish Archetype based on Ant-Man & The Wasp: Quantum Trickster

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: If a player wanted to Multiclass as warlock: would you make them find a patron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vogie View Post
    Inasmuch as most classes can be reduced to "another class, but with a different mechanic". Sorcerers are just wizards with a different mechanic.
    No, sorcerers use magic innately and wizards study for it. That, not the mechanic, is what differentiates them. Since the poster I was responding to ignores the warlock's patron, which is the defining element for warlocks, I was guessing that they explain the magical abilities as innate. A wizard with a different mechanic would not be the same thing, although it's also a possibility, as is a cleric with a different mechanic if they explain their magic as coming from a deity.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I've tallied up all the points for this thread, and consulted with the debate judges, and the verdict is clear: JoeJ wins the thread.

  17. - Top - End - #47
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: If a player wanted to Multiclass as warlock: would you make them find a patron?

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeJ View Post
    No, sorcerers use magic innately and wizards study for it. That, not the mechanic, is what differentiates them
    That is literally a mechanic. It's fluff. Spell casters receive the ability to cast spells. If you get it from a deity, they call it one thing; from a book, another; from a patron, another; from a bardic college, another; from a feat, another; vague bloodline-related handwaving, yet another. But they're all dudes and dudettes that receive the ability to cast spells.

    You could just as easily flip the RAW script... You move the shoe to the other foot, and you can just as easily justify it with flavor. Here's a justification if you do nothing else but make the Sorcerer follow the Wizard mechanic, and the Wizard use the sorcerer mechanic:
    Sorcerers are arcane dabblers, having learned magic from books, and only are able to cast things defined in the book, based on some internalized rule-following; Wizards, on the other hand, not only have innate knowledge of magic, but also study and make note of the fundamental essence of magic, so much so that they learn over time to alter and manipulate their spells.
    Think about it this way.

    Let's make a new character all about using technology to use marvelous, nearly supernatural things

    Are they using a bunch of individual gadgets and devices, that they craft, upgrade and recharge themselves, either that they discovered, were taught about, or of their own design?
    Are they using technology from another, higher world or completely alien entity that was merely given to them out of some understanding and devotion?
    Are they using technology contained inside their own person, like a cyborg?
    Are they using technology they've received from someone (or something) else whose technology is superior to their own?

    These are all characters using technology... but I've just described a Wizard, a Cleric, a Sorcerer, and a Warlock (respectively) just without using the word magic, by mechanics only.

    If a character concept works within the mechanical confines of a class' skeleton, and all you are changing is the fluff, that's not even changing mechanics. Removing the Patron from the Warlock design skeleton is just removing fluff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    "I summon a bunch of cows."
    "Herd."
    "What?"
    "Herd of cows."
    "Of course I've heard of cows. I'm not an idiot."
    "No, I mean a cow herd."
    "I don't care if a cow heard, I said nothing to be ashamed of!"
    PEACH it, Brothas & Sistas!
    5e Warlock Patron based on Fullmetal Alchemist: The Gate of Truth
    5e Warlock Patron Based on the Iron Druid Chronicles: Gaia
    5e Roguish Archetype based on Ant-Man & The Wasp: Quantum Trickster

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Planetar

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    Default Re: If a player wanted to Multiclass as warlock: would you make them find a patron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    One thing to keep in mind is that not all Pacts are big, important affaires.
    I once had a character who had traded her award-winning brownie recipe to the queen of the fey in exchange for eldritch power. That was the extent of the pact.

  19. - Top - End - #49
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: If a player wanted to Multiclass as warlock: would you make them find a patron?

    To be fair, I've always wondered what would happen if they had just called the Warlock "Sorcerer" instead of "Warlock." Like, instead of pacts, you choose a heritage or power source and channel your magic like that. Heck, you could even make "wild magic" a source of magic, and maintain the mechanics from the Sorcerer class.

    But that's kinda off topic and a source of contention for another day. Tl;dr: I'm fine with the "Sorcerer with a different mechanic" line of thinking.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

    Where did you start yours?

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    MY STATS OFF THE ELITE ARRAY:
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  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: If a player wanted to Multiclass as warlock: would you make them find a patron?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreyBlack View Post
    To be fair, I've always wondered what would happen if they had just called the Warlock "Sorcerer" instead of "Warlock." Like, instead of pacts, you choose a heritage or power source and channel your magic like that. Heck, you could even make "wild magic" a source of magic, and maintain the mechanics from the Sorcerer class.
    Many have indeed noted the similarity between the two, and more than one homebrewer has worked on merging them.
    Roll for it
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  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Asmotherion's Avatar

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    Default Re: If a player wanted to Multiclass as warlock: would you make them find a patron?

    Yes, that's part of the D&D experiance. You don't need to make it difficult for the player, just have a talk about his intentions to multiclass and plan out the patron as a "Deus Ex Machina"... or a way to contact him/her at least, and make him work for it.

    Same for someone who multiclasses as a Sorcerer. He'd need to somehow obtain innate magical abilities, either through some magic ritual/experiment, or developing something that was already there, but never really touched before (thus exploring a hidden past/backstory of the character by meeting someone who knew something about some Magic Wielding Ancestor perhaps?).

    I generaly believe that the first level of a Multiclass is a great RP oportunity for a side-quest, and the Level itself is it's own reward. At the same time, it allows a small derivation from the main plot, and if everyone takes turns for his class(es), everyone gets a turn to Shine.

    Please help/contribute in creating the: Complete list of Magically Created Constructs, Elementals etc

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: If a player wanted to Multiclass as warlock: would you make them find a patron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xetheral View Post
    I once had a character who had traded her award-winning brownie recipe to the queen of the fey in exchange for eldritch power. That was the extent of the pact.
    This is now my favorite pact deal ever.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: If a player wanted to Multiclass as warlock: would you make them find a patron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vogie View Post
    That is literally a mechanic. It's fluff. Spell casters receive the ability to cast spells. If you get it from a deity, they call it one thing; from a book, another; from a patron, another; from a bardic college, another; from a feat, another; vague bloodline-related handwaving, yet another. But they're all dudes and dudettes that receive the ability to cast spells.

    You could just as easily flip the RAW script... You move the shoe to the other foot, and you can just as easily justify it with flavor. Here's a justification if you do nothing else but make the Sorcerer follow the Wizard mechanic, and the Wizard use the sorcerer mechanic:


    Think about it this way.

    Let's make a new character all about using technology to use marvelous, nearly supernatural things

    Are they using a bunch of individual gadgets and devices, that they craft, upgrade and recharge themselves, either that they discovered, were taught about, or of their own design?
    Are they using technology from another, higher world or completely alien entity that was merely given to them out of some understanding and devotion?
    Are they using technology contained inside their own person, like a cyborg?
    Are they using technology they've received from someone (or something) else whose technology is superior to their own?

    These are all characters using technology... but I've just described a Wizard, a Cleric, a Sorcerer, and a Warlock (respectively) just without using the word magic, by mechanics only.

    If a character concept works within the mechanical confines of a class' skeleton, and all you are changing is the fluff, that's not even changing mechanics. Removing the Patron from the Warlock design skeleton is just removing fluff.
    What you call fluff is what makes the difference between playing a character and pushing a set of mechanical buttons. The specific mechanics; spell slots, invocations, number of cantrips, etc. are secondary. They're only there for support. How somebody obtained their power, what they do to keep it, and what that means for the way they live their life - that's the important part. The in-world explanation of how they do what they do can be anything (subject to DM approval), but it has to be something, or you don't really have a character at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I've tallied up all the points for this thread, and consulted with the debate judges, and the verdict is clear: JoeJ wins the thread.

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: If a player wanted to Multiclass as warlock: would you make them find a patron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xetheral View Post
    I once had a character who had traded her award-winning brownie recipe to the queen of the fey in exchange for eldritch power. That was the extent of the pact.
    And by brownie, do you mean the baked food, or... the little fey people?

    OR BOTH?

    So for generations did the sainted skull of Caius Anicius Magnus Furius Camillus Æmilianus Cornelius Valerius Pompeius Julius Ibidus, consul of Rome, favourite of emperors, and saint of the Romish church, lie hidden beneath the soil of a growing town. At first worshipped with dark rites by the prairie-dogs, who saw in it a deity sent from the upper world..
    - H.P. Lovecraft, "Ibid".

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: If a player wanted to Multiclass as warlock: would you make them find a patron?

    Quote Originally Posted by Finback View Post
    And by brownie, do you mean the baked food, or... the little fey people?

    OR BOTH?
    That's a good question. And here, I was just wondering what other recipes were required to gain further levels.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I've tallied up all the points for this thread, and consulted with the debate judges, and the verdict is clear: JoeJ wins the thread.

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: If a player wanted to Multiclass as warlock: would you make them find a patron?

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeJ View Post
    That's a good question. And here, I was just wondering what other recipes were required to gain further levels.
    Angelcake.
    Devilled eggs.
    Redcappertisers.
    Trollmades.
    Lasagnoll.

    So for generations did the sainted skull of Caius Anicius Magnus Furius Camillus Æmilianus Cornelius Valerius Pompeius Julius Ibidus, consul of Rome, favourite of emperors, and saint of the Romish church, lie hidden beneath the soil of a growing town. At first worshipped with dark rites by the prairie-dogs, who saw in it a deity sent from the upper world..
    - H.P. Lovecraft, "Ibid".

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