Why do people worship evil gods?

[Segev]

In a world of unquestionably objective morality, you will get people who do what we already do with “evil” here, only more so. “Evil is sexy,” or “evil is misunderstood,” or even “they call it ‘evil,’ but it actually is necessary and better than so-called ‘good.’”

“Evil,” they will say, “is just strength. Good is weakness.”

We already have stories about how “too much good” leads to tragedy, sorrow, and even “greater evil.” Imagine how much easier that is when one can say that “good” is just a label applied to a particular energy.

But even without that, an evil god’s worshipper might say that he’s “evil,” but that that’s just a label allied by the weak and scared to the strength and power that his god grants.

That halfling that he stabbed to death in he checkout line was weak, or he’d have been able to prevent the murder. Nerull justifies his follower in that action, because Nerull isn’t some pansy who pretends Death isn’t coming for us all the eventually anyway.

For example, if part of your campaign is to save a village from a plague, even a small prayer to Talona or Urgathoa would be ludicrous - such a deity is almost certainly behind it and actively trying to thwart the party. But to the disease-stricken commonfolk, they have nothing to lose by trying to appease her and get her to hopefully leave them alone.

This would be a good piece of world building. The very priest behind the plague might openly admit it. “You have not given the Mother of Miasma her due, O Thorpesville; pray to her, and build unto her a shrine, for until she is appeased, your homes shall be wracked with plague!”

Gods curse as well as bless to gain reverence, after all.

[Pleh]

In a world of unquestionably objective morality, you will get people who do what we already do with “evil” here, only more so. “Evil is sexy,” or “evil is misunderstood,” or even “they call it ‘evil,’ but it actually is necessary and better than so-called ‘good.’”

From my point of view, the Jedi are evil.

[Segev]

From my point of view, the Jedi are evil.

Eh, I put the Jedi/Sith divide along Law/Chaos lines. It just happens that the Soth have always also bent towards evil. Their actual code is more chaotic and doesn’t require the evil they use it to justify.

[Bohandas]

In a universe where Good and Evil are as tangible and objective as fire and water, and where people can meet entities literally composed of one of those alignments, there's less ambiguity.

Yes, but it's not totally gone.

After all, what's the philosophical significance of fire and water? Different people will tell you different things and a lot of them will tell you they have no philosophical significance except as a metaphor.

[SimonMoon6]

But even without that, an evil god’s worshipper might say that he’s “evil,” but that that’s just a label allied by the weak and scared to the strength and power that his god grants.

That halfling that he stabbed to death in he checkout line was weak, or he’d have been able to prevent the murder. Nerull justifies his follower in that action, because Nerull isn’t some pansy who pretends Death isn’t coming for us all the eventually anyway.

Yeah, that's similar to Objectivism as espoused by Ayn Rand, a particular favorite of... a particularly evil member of the current House of Representatives, who I will not name.

And yeah, you can just look to the real world to see all the support for fascists and nationalists. Why would someone support such evil monsters? Why would someone support evil people who would put Jews, Japanese people, or even Latino/Hispanic children in concentration camps or detention centers? Well, just look to the real world for the answers: people are easily scared and want easy solutions to complex problems. Making some other group into the bad guys to be demonized makes the politician/god's work so much easier. People actually fall for that sort of stuff.

But they still won't see themselves as being in the wrong. And some of those people are terrible people, but some are just stupid or misinformed.

[Bohandas]

Yes, but it's not totally gone.

After all, what's the philosophical significance of fire and water? Different people will tell you different things and a lot of them will tell you they have no philosophical significance except as a metaphor.

Plus, what even is fire? There are some people who will insist that any redox reaction is fire, even rusting and cellular metabolism, and conversely there are some people who will insist that there has to be an actual flame

[Pleh]

Eh, I put the Jedi/Sith divide along Law/Chaos lines. It just happens that the Soth have always also bent towards evil. Their actual code is more chaotic and doesn’t require the evil they use it to justify.

Eh. Sith are only chaotic in seeking zero limitations on themselves. They classically also seek to use their power to establish lawful evil tyranny over *everyone else*.

Likewise, Jedi are acsetic, but support democratic governance. Law for themselves, freedom for everyone else. They intervene in others to defend the powerless and the innocent.

Sith definitely fall under the "pragmatic" excuse for evil. "Once more the sith shall rule the galaxy, and we shall have peace."

Law and order might not be the best metric for them.

[Calthropstu]

Sure, not ''all'', just ''most''. The same way ''most'' good people are fine with helping others...but ''some'' good folks have remorse about wasting time and money and effort on people that need help.

And sure, anyone that ''falls'' or ''somehow'' becomes an alignment unwillingly, might very well dislike who they have become. But a person having a weak will is what makes a lot of drama for plots and stories.

Well, murder is just for the Neurll example. And note, Neurll is also a god of trickery.

I'd protest at most even. Think of how many people commit murder as opposed to assualt, rape, blackmail, fraud, theft etc.

Murder is the worst thing you can do. You steal their entire future for your own selfish reasons. You end all their moments, their potential, sever their connections with others and others' connections with them. And usually it's for something stupid.

You can be evil without being a monster.

[SimonMoon6]

Murder is the worst thing you can do.

That's debatable.

Personally, I'd rather be murdered than, say, tortured for extended periods of time... or mutilated. When someone is dead, all their pain is finally over, but forcing someone to live in agony or disfigurement? Every day *wishing* they were dead? That seems a bit worse to me, though YMMV.

That's why there's a phrase "A fate worse than death." There are worse things that can happen to someone.

[Darth Ultron]

I'd say that, if anything, "Card-Carrying villains" who admit that they are evil, revel in it - these are the exception - and "the rule" is for the more self-delusionary kind of Evil character.

This is only true in the One Way type Universe where the One God says things are only HIS way. In such a place, everyone wants to be ''good''. But that is because such a place is hugely unbalanced: it is Good Only.

I'd protest at most even. Think of how many people commit murder as opposed to assualt, rape, blackmail, fraud, theft etc.

Murder is the worst thing you can do. You steal their entire future for your own selfish reasons. You end all their moments, their potential, sever their connections with others and others' connections with them. And usually it's for something stupid.

You can be evil without being a monster.

Sure, there are lots of ways to be evil. Though most good folks think any evil person is a 'monster'.

Of course, it is hard to talk about Good and Evil...as we can't really talk about evil.

And the books are of little help: they are written by extremely radical one sided narrow view Good(ish) people...and worse then that, they are written to be politically correct and safe.

[Xuc Xac]

That's why there's a phrase "A fate worse than death." There are worse things that can happen to someone.

There's a phrase "A fate worse than death" because it's an 18th century euphemism for rape because they had weird ideas about virginity and the value of women. It was mostly used by historians writing about "barbarians" but Edgar Rice Burroughs used it in his very popular books about Tarzan and made it a more common phrase.

[Calthropstu]

This is only true in the One Way type Universe where the One God says things are only HIS way. In such a place, everyone wants to be ''good''. But that is because such a place is hugely unbalanced: it is Good Only.



Sure, there are lots of ways to be evil. Though most good folks think any evil person is a 'monster'.

Of course, it is hard to talk about Good and Evil...as we can't really talk about evil.

And the books are of little help: they are written by extremely radical one sided narrow view Good(ish) people...and worse then that, they are written to be politically correct and safe.

Fortunately, we aren't under such constraints and may discuss the nature of good and evil freely.

In order to define them, we must understand the basic core of good and evil. What are they?

At its core, good is a deliberate sacrifice of self to aid others while evil is the deliberate harm of others to gain in self. At least, that is what it seems.

By that measurement, all manner of acts can be considered "good" and "evil." There are all manner of ways to perform good or evil under such a definition. For good, you can sacrifice time, money, objects or even risk your life in order to assist other people. For evil, you simply have to take from others, willing or not, in order to increase yourself.

Needless to say, most car salesmen in modern society would probably ping as evil under that definition.

[Darth Ultron]

Fortunately, we aren't under such constraints and may discuss the nature of good and evil freely.

Sorry, this simply is not true.

In order to define them, we must understand the basic core of good and evil. What are they?

At its core, good is a deliberate sacrifice of self to aid others while evil is the deliberate harm of others to gain in self. At least, that is what it seems.

It is a good basic core, sure.

By that measurement, all manner of acts can be considered "good" and "evil." There are all manner of ways to perform good or evil under such a definition. For good, you can sacrifice time, money, objects or even risk your life in order to assist other people. For evil, you simply have to take from others, willing or not, in order to increase yourself.

Needless to say, most car salesmen in modern society would probably ping as evil under that definition.

While it is true that a good half of all salespeople are evil, it's a bit much to call out just the car ones.

In any society about half of the people will be good and half will be evil. And in a good or evil society, both types will lie about what they are in public. In a good society a evil guy will lie and say he is good...and in an evil society good guy will lie and say he is evil.

[Anymage]

In any society about half of the people will be good and half will be evil. And in a good or evil society, both types will lie about what they are in public. In a good society a evil guy will lie and say he is good...and in an evil society good guy will lie and say he is evil.

Strongly disagree.

First, neutrals also exist. From even the most naive assumptions, that's only one third of a given population being evil.

Second, you open up a huge issue of population dynamics, because there's no reason to think that alignments are graded so that 33% of the population falls into each group. You have to ask just how extremely aligned somebody has to be to get a letter other than N on their character sheet. (Can you be Evil if you're just a little more caustic and greedy than average, or do you have to go out of your way to stab babies? If you can be Evil by just being a little more caustic and greedy, can you have Always Evil creatures like fiends who are only a bit more caustic and greedy than your average commoner? It gets complicated fast.) Then you have to ask what percent of the population falls into each group, which is by no means guaranteed to be 11% of the population falling neatly into each of the nine alignments.

Which ties back to the issue of Nerull worshippers. Somebody who thinks nothing of killing another person who becomes inconvenient will quickly be killed themselves. Possibly because some other Nerull worshiper found them inconvenient, possibly because less evil people around them banded together to take out what they saw as a mutual threat, possibly because a murderhappy society would quickly find that people with key skills were dead and that certain important jobs just didn't get done as a result. Neither half of all people or half of all societies - or even a third, if you remember neutrals - will be evil.

[Bohandas]

That's debatable.

Personally, I'd rather be murdered than, say, tortured for extended periods of time... or mutilated.

Well in that case the worst thing would be breaking someone on the wheel or skinning them alive or crucifixion, as these combine elements of both

The point is that

"All evil people feel no remorse about committing murder" and "have not cared even a tiny bit about" committing murder - is a vast oversimplification.

This kind of "one-note evil" is not a requirement in D&D. There are evil characters who dislike the people they have become.


For that matter, murder is far from the only relevant Evil act. You could have an evil-aligned fraudster and con artist who would never dream of committing murder - but has committed so much other Evil, that they ping as Evil-aligned.

Yeah, like I've always assumed Vecna's cult, for example, to be more about blackmail than black magic

[WindStruck]

I'm sorry.. half the people in any population good and half evil?

Maybe this video would interest you.

[Dr paradox]

Depends somewhat on the god? Something like Asmodeus or Bane is pretty easy to understand, since they're all about Reward through Hierarchy. Asmodeus advocates a kind of corporate climber mentality, playing "the game" in order to rise through the ranks as ruthlessly as possible, while also espousing the importance of keeping the ladder itself intact. Bane, on the other hand, commands that all people function within their proper role without regard to the cost, as the only way that the organization as a whole can obtain prosperity.

Sometimes a society is just brainwashed and duped from birth, where they believe that it's validation enough to be noticed and "loved" by the god their society reveres. They don't need to actively commit evil, they just need to be subservient and tithe appropriately while the clergy and the leadership uses it all for their schemes.

[Darth Ultron]

Strongly disagree.

First, neutrals also exist. From even the most naive assumptions, that's only one third of a given population being evil.

The thing is very, very, very few people are pure, true neutral. Most people will fall on the side of good or evil.

Second, you open up a huge issue of population dynamics, because there's no reason to think that alignments are graded so that 33% of the population falls into each group.

The way the game works, is if you do ''1%'' then that is enough. You can tell one lie just fine....but when you tell like a hundred lies a day: you are evil.

Which ties back to the issue of Nerull worshippers. Somebody who thinks nothing of killing another person who becomes inconvenient will quickly be killed themselves. Possibly because some other Nerull worshiper found them inconvenient, possibly because less evil people around them banded together to take out what they saw as a mutual threat, possibly because a murderhappy society would quickly find that people with key skills were dead and that certain important jobs just didn't get done as a result. Neither half of all people or half of all societies - or even a third, if you remember neutrals - will be evil.

This is just Good Bias. Oh ''evil will always turn on itself, so don't be evil...be good(wink wink)"

Think of Klingon society, from Star Trek: A Klingon can freely kill whenever they want. It's the typical way to get a raise or promotion. You have to obey the society laws about rank and standing...but your sure free to kill anyone equal or less then you are.

Drow society is even better: you can kill anyone...if you can get away with it(but they won't look too hard).

I know that good people want to think ''everyone is good"...it gives them warm fuzzy feelings...but that simply is not true.

[hamishspence]

The thing is very, very, very few people are pure, true neutral. Most people will fall on the side of good or evil.

But a large proportion will be close enough to "the centreline" that they won't ping as Good or Evil - their alignment will be TN, even if they might have "evil tendencies" or "good tendencies".

PHB makes it clear that the typical alignment of humans is TN.

[JoeJ]

PHB makes it clear that the typical alignment of humans is TN.

In 5e humans are all over the map. No alignment is common enough to be considered typical for them.

[Dr paradox]

In 5e humans are all over the map. No alignment is common enough to be considered typical for them.

Just checked, the PHB does indeed specifically reference humans. It only says "many humans," but it uses the same language for saying that "many elves" are chaotic good and "many rogues and barbarians" are chaotic neutral.

Just seems like there are several different kinds of neutral. Some, like druids, treat true neutrality as a spiritual calling, and some just kinda don't give a **** about good or evil, law or chaos. They just want to get through the day, skim a couple office supplies off their job, and be able to rely on the constabulary to keep them from getting mugged.

[thaco mike]

suppose everyone has their reasons. some maybe for power, some out of desperation, some because they're angry and want the world to hurt. Some are maybe tricked into it.

[Bohandas]

But a large proportion will be close enough to "the centreline" that they won't ping as Good or Evil - their alignment will be TN, even if they might have "evil tendencies" or "good tendencies".

Probably the majority in fact

[Misereor]

In an evil region or country, what is the motivation for people to follow evil gods?

Put yourself in their place, and remember the 15-15-70 rule.
In any given population, app. 15% will be good, no matter what, 15% will be bad no matter what, and 70% will just go along with what the accepted standard is. It can be broadly applied to cops, businesses, lawyers, voters, etc. and I assume D&D populations as well.

Now put yourself in the shoes of Joe Average in an evil society. Say the old Zhentil Keep in Faerun pre-3rd ed.

Joe lives in a city that is the only city around the Moonsea that hasn't been sacked by Humanoid hordes, something that Zhents take great pride in. He is a Zhent, and Zhents are tough people who do what is necessary to survive.

Joe is happy that the patron God of the Keep is Bane, because Bane is not a wuss god like Ilmater or Lathander, or someone who panders to pieous fanatics like Tyr or Torm. *Those* guys are totally evil. They've burnt down Bane knows how many temples and peaceful Zhent villages. And Tyr was the patron God of Phlan which holds the all-time Forgotten Realms record of "city burnt to the ground most times".

Joe also accepts Human sacrifices, because that is what religion requires, and besides only criminals are sacrificed anyway. This way their execution becomes an act of worship instead of senseless killing, and Zhents are raised to take their religion seriously. In fact, Zhentish families emulate the Bane/Loviatar relationship, with the father as head of the family and the mother as disciplinarian of family and the house servants/slaves. Zhents are tough because they are raised tough. Joe is happy to send his sons and daughters to war, to protect Zhent territory and trade interests. The youngest even joined the priesthood of Bane and was showing considerable promise until murdered by good-aligned "adventurers" (which is to say greedy brigands who hate the Keep because they're jealous and/or insane).

Other people in the Keep manipulate Joe. They perpetuate the narrative that Joe accepts, even if they don't particularly care about Joe or his family. They are useful tools, nothing more. These are the 15% bad people who play the game of power and exploitation. Some play at a high level and some at a low. Some are high priests and archmages, others are guildmasters and minor functionaries.

Yet other people (the 15% good) want Joe to be free. This does not mean that they automatically reject everything Zhentish, because they themselves are a product of their upbringing and social programming. And they certainly won't accept foreign armies sacking their city and killing their families. More likely they do little things to promote reform. Some might be driven to do more and perform drastic acts that will provoke change, but they are rare and hunted. Also, even when they don't end up on sacrificial altar, they will quite frequently end up doing more harm than good.


In short: Joe is the 70%. As long as he is not actively persecuted, Joe goes along with the system.
Bane is the system, so until the system is changed, Joe will worship Bane.

[Calthropstu]

Put yourself in their place, and remember the 15-15-70 rule.
In any given population, app. 15% will be good, no matter what, 15% will be bad no matter what, and 70% will just go along with what the accepted standard is. It can be broadly applied to cops, businesses, lawyers, voters, etc. and I assume D&D populations as well.

Now put yourself in the shoes of Joe Average in an evil society. Say the old Zhentil Keep in Faerun pre-3rd ed.

Joe lives in a city that is the only city around the Moonsea that hasn't been sacked by Humanoid hordes, something that Zhents take great pride in. He is a Zhent, and Zhents are tough people who do what is necessary to survive.

Joe is happy that the patron God of the Keep is Bane, because Bane is not a wuss god like Ilmater or Lathander, or someone who panders to pieous fanatics like Tyr or Torm. *Those* guys are totally evil. They've burnt down Bane knows how many temples and peaceful Zhent villages. And Tyr was the patron God of Phlan which holds the all-time Forgotten Realms record of "city burnt to the ground most times".

Joe also accepts Human sacrifices, because that is what religion requires, and besides only criminals are sacrificed anyway. This way their execution becomes an act of worship instead of senseless killing, and Zhents are raised to take their religion seriously. In fact, Zhentish families emulate the Bane/Loviatar relationship, with the father as head of the family and the mother as disciplinarian of family and the house servants/slaves. Zhents are tough because they are raised tough. Joe is happy to send his sons and daughters to war, to protect Zhent territory and trade interests. The youngest even joined the priesthood of Bane and was showing considerable promise until murdered by good-aligned "adventurers" (which is to say greedy brigands who hate the Keep because they're jealous and/or insane).

Other people in the Keep manipulate Joe. They perpetuate the narrative that Joe accepts, even if they don't particularly care about Joe or his family. They are useful tools, nothing more. These are the 15% bad people who play the game of power and exploitation. Some play at a high level and some at a low. Some are high priests and archmages, others are guildmasters and minor functionaries.

Yet other people (the 15% good) want Joe to be free. This does not mean that they automatically reject everything Zhentish, because they themselves are a product of their upbringing and social programming. And they certainly won't accept foreign armies sacking their city and killing their families. More likely they do little things to promote reform. Some might be driven to do more and perform drastic acts that will provoke change, but they are rare and hunted. Also, even when they don't end up on sacrificial altar, they will quite frequently end up doing more harm than good.


In short: Joe is the 70%. As long as he is not actively persecuted, Joe goes along with the system.
Bane is the system, so until the system is changed, Joe will worship Bane.

Right on the mark. Most can't or don't want to think for themselves. They want to, NEED to, belong. The church of Bane is the primary authority. To go against it is well... Stupid. They're too strong.

I've run up against that in modern society. I stood up to some abusive policemen who were threatening to arrest the victim of a crime. Fortunately for me, the perp started struggling and yelling and screaming and the officer had to go and help, but other bystanders told me I was crazy and should mind my own business.

Most people really don't give a **** about others. So yeah... As long as they or their family aren't the ones being sacrificed or crushed underfoot or persecutef they're fine with it.

[hamishspence]

Probably the majority in fact

Depends on the edition, and the setting. In Eberron it's something like 30% Good 40% Neutral 30% Evil. I don't know what it is for Greyhawk or Faerun - a little more - but maybe not as high as 50% Neutral.

[Darth Ultron]

Depends on the edition, and the setting. In Eberron it's something like 30% Good 40% Neutral 30% Evil. I don't know what it is for Greyhawk or Faerun - a little more - but maybe not as high as 50% Neutral.

True neutral is rare, but you can say a lot of people are Neutral Good or Neutral Evil. Those two alignments do describe a LOT of people.

Neutral Good-They value both personal freedom and adherence to laws. They promote governments which hold broad powers, but do not interfere in the day-to-day lives of their citizens. They will follow the law unless more good can come from breaking the law. He will never betray a family member, comrade, or friend.

Neutral Evil-A neutral evil person does whatever she can get away with. They are out for themselves pure and simple.

But note: The Neutral Good guy IS a Good Guy, and the Neutral Evil guy is an Evil Guy. If your alignment has Good or Evil in it, you are a Good or Evil person.

[Bohandas]

All of the alignments are rare. They each have about an 11% market share on average

[Bohandas]

Put yourself in their place, and remember the 15-15-70 rule.
In any given population, app. 15% will be good, no matter what, 15% will be bad no matter what, and 70% will just go along with what the accepted standard is. It can be broadly applied to cops, businesses, lawyers, voters, etc. and I assume D&D populations as well.

Now put yourself in the shoes of Joe Average in an evil society. Say the old Zhentil Keep in Faerun pre-3rd ed.

Joe lives in a city that is the only city around the Moonsea that hasn't been sacked by Humanoid hordes, something that Zhents take great pride in. He is a Zhent, and Zhents are tough people who do what is necessary to survive.

Joe is happy that the patron God of the Keep is Bane, because Bane is not a wuss god like Ilmater or Lathander, or someone who panders to pieous fanatics like Tyr or Torm. *Those* guys are totally evil. They've burnt down Bane knows how many temples and peaceful Zhent villages. And Tyr was the patron God of Phlan which holds the all-time Forgotten Realms record of "city burnt to the ground most times".

Joe also accepts Human sacrifices, because that is what religion requires, and besides only criminals are sacrificed anyway. This way their execution becomes an act of worship instead of senseless killing, and Zhents are raised to take their religion seriously. In fact, Zhentish families emulate the Bane/Loviatar relationship, with the father as head of the family and the mother as disciplinarian of family and the house servants/slaves. Zhents are tough because they are raised tough. Joe is happy to send his sons and daughters to war, to protect Zhent territory and trade interests. The youngest even joined the priesthood of Bane and was showing considerable promise until murdered by good-aligned "adventurers" (which is to say greedy brigands who hate the Keep because they're jealous and/or insane).

Other people in the Keep manipulate Joe. They perpetuate the narrative that Joe accepts, even if they don't particularly care about Joe or his family. They are useful tools, nothing more. These are the 15% bad people who play the game of power and exploitation. Some play at a high level and some at a low. Some are high priests and archmages, others are guildmasters and minor functionaries.

Yet other people (the 15% good) want Joe to be free. This does not mean that they automatically reject everything Zhentish, because they themselves are a product of their upbringing and social programming. And they certainly won't accept foreign armies sacking their city and killing their families. More likely they do little things to promote reform. Some might be driven to do more and perform drastic acts that will provoke change, but they are rare and hunted. Also, even when they don't end up on sacrificial altar, they will quite frequently end up doing more harm than good.


In short: Joe is the 70%. As long as he is not actively persecuted, Joe goes along with the system.
Bane is the system, so until the system is changed, Joe will worship Bane.

Or how about an area ruled by a tyrannical totalitarian system. Where a lot of people don't support it, and so there are periodic revolutions. But the people have never known anything other than tyranny so the new regime is always more of the same. And so a lot of people wind up supporting tyranny because it's not the old tyrant; and those who took part in the revolution have also killed people to no good or productive end, and the souls keep rolling into baator

[druid91]

A Lovely Chapter of a Lovely series that explains a few reasons for worshiping evil gods.