Paladin of Freedom in Golarion

[Psyren]

I think that's the point - before Planar Adventures, there wasn't one PF source that had this stuff compiled, it was spread across a variety of spots. Inner Sea Gods, Inner Sea World Guide, Chronicles of the Righteous, Book of the Damned, Planes of Power...

Planar Adventures is basically PF's "Manual of the Planes" providing the consolidated and deeper viewpoint on everything that came before.

(Above responding to Palanan)

[Morty]

Try as I might, I can't think of anything that could go wrong if you took the vanilla Pathfinder paladin, wrote down Chaotic Good on their sheet and played them with less emphasis on justice and honor and more about freedom and liberty to pursue one's passions, opposing those who would stifle and oppress people. Being good is a far more important part of the class than being lawful.

Which means that, yeah, playing an evil paladin or even a neutral one would be far trickier. The first step would be to come up with a coherent idea of a philosophy or oath one might serve that would be evil, rather than just running around killing people for the dark gods. But even then paladin abilities are focused on healing, supporting and defending.

[Eldonauran]

@ Palanan: Planar Adventures is the primary cosmology book now. It doesn't have much on paladins that can't be found elsewhere. There isn't anything official to support what you want; as far as this edition goes, Paladins (and their counterparts) are LG and CE only.

First, I want to apologize for any insinuations I might have made. I was unaware that you possessed the Great Beyond book. Since you have clarified that point, it isn't an issue anymore.

Secondly, I still treat the Great Beyond as a source book for information on the Pathfinder cosmology. It really doesn't matter to me if they printed the material at the beginning or updated it now. I have (since my last post) purchased the Planar Handbook and been reading into it (and will treat it as a primary source, but I am not going to ignore the Great Beyond or stop referencing it). Not much has changed between the two, as far as I can see. Though the two books seem to focus a bit more on different things, they do not seem to be in conflict with each other on anything I've seen so far (minor updates to planar features, and the like, notwithstanding)

Though, I am quite surprised with the Planar Adventures book. The inclusion of how the souls are created, pass through the Great Beyond, and recycle is remarkably similar to how I chose to showcase in my games.

[Psyren]

No worries Eld - but if you're using info in an outdated (nearly decade-old at this point) book to justify why a certain plane should be more highly regarded for function X (empowering Paladins in this case) than another plane, I'm going to point out what I see as the flaws in that justification. In broad strokes the planes didn't change much, i.e. Archons live in Heaven, Demons in the Abyss, souls go to the Boneyard atop the Spire etc.) but to me at least, the fine details matter. Because I don't see why Heaven would be any better at that particular function than Elysium or Nirvana beyond "because we say so."

Try as I might, I can't think of anything that could go wrong if you took the vanilla Pathfinder paladin, wrote down Chaotic Good on their sheet and played them with less emphasis on justice and honor and more about freedom and liberty to pursue one's passions, opposing those who would stifle and oppress people. Being good is a far more important part of the class than being lawful.

Which means that, yeah, playing an evil paladin or even a neutral one would be far trickier. The first step would be to come up with a coherent idea of a philosophy or oath one might serve that would be evil, rather than just running around killing people for the dark gods. But even then paladin abilities are focused on healing, supporting and defending.

You'd have to tweak the code a bit I imagine - CG paladins would have few qualms about lying for instance, even under oath, especially if doing so protects innocents - but beyond that I completely agree, it shouldn't be this much of a headache to play one.

[Eldonauran]

No worries Eld - but if you're using info in an outdated (nearly decade-old at this point) book to justify why a certain plane should be more highly regarded for function X (empowering Paladins in this case) than another plane, I'm going to point out what I see as the flaws in that justification. In broad strokes the planes didn't change much, i.e. Archons live in Heaven, Demons in the Abyss, souls go to the Boneyard atop the Spire etc.) but to me at least, the fine details matter. Because I don't see why Heaven would be any better at that particular function than Elysium or Nirvana beyond "because we say so."

That is interesting, because to me, it is the fine details that actually point me towards my earlier musing of why Heaven might be the source of the Paladin's power. But, I can see how either argument turns into a circular one.

The one overriding reason that I think Heaven is the source of the Paladin's power, leaving aside all other issues of 'because they said so' or 'there should be other paladins of other alignments', is that Paladins are a force of justice. Not just good. Not just blind obedience to the law. They embody every aspect of what Heaven operates with and stands for. While the other Good planes harbor aspects of the Paladin code, none are a perfect reflection of what that code entails. But, it is fine if you disagree with me. I am just attempting to explain my thought process, not trying to convince you or anyone else.

[Psyren]

I have no problem with a class that exemplifies Heaven's ideals. I'm just pointing out that Elysium has ideals too.

Anyway, I think we've both answered the OP's original question and beaten this topic to the Boneyard and back.

[Morty]

You'd have to tweak the code a bit I imagine - CG paladins would have few qualms about lying for instance, even under oath, especially if doing so protects innocents - but beyond that I completely agree, it shouldn't be this much of a headache to play one.

Simplest way to do it would be probably to replace it with something against coercion and intimidation. But that's a bit tricky since intimidating an evildoer into not doing evil isn't exactly oppression.

(I figure this is actually helpful to the OP so I threw that in.)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
Inner Sea Gods, Inner Sea World Guide, Chronicles of the Righteous, Book of the Damned, Planes of Power...

This is a helpful shortlist of books to consult, thanks.

Originally Posted by Psyren
Anyway, I think we've both answered the OP's original question and beaten this topic to the Boneyard and back.

Correct on both counts.

[Sayt]

That's a good freedom fighter, but note that the power of the Rose Waren explicitly comes from worshipping the goddess Milani, not from dedication to an ideal. So it's basically a cleric.

I mean, it's a holy warrior dedicated to fighting oppression and injustice, it may not be a CG Paladin to a tee, but it gives a large part of the fantasy behind a CG Paladin.

Also, as a Goddess, Milani represents an ideal, that of resistance to unjust rule and repressive regimes. Is a Paladin of Iomedae less a paladin because they serve Iomedae, instead of an Ideal repreresented by Iomedae?

[torrasque666]

I mean, it's a holy warrior dedicated to fighting oppression and injustice, it may not be a CG Paladin to a tee, but it gives a large part of the fantasy behind a CG Paladin.

Also, as a Goddess, Milani represents an ideal, that of resistance to unjust rule and repressive regimes. Is a Paladin of Iomedae less a paladin because they serve Iomedae, instead of an Ideal repreresented by Iomedae?

A Paladin of Iomedae might worship and serve Iomedae, but Iomedae is not the source of their power, unlike a Rose Warden.

[Psyren]

A Paladin of Iomedae might worship and serve Iomedae, but Iomedae is not the source of their power, unlike a Rose Warden.

Yes and no. In Golarion, Iomedan paladins (like all the other deific paladin orders) have tenets they follow in addition to the standard code of conduct. Joining that god's paladin order means you have to abide by that god's code or fall; these can be found in Inner Sea Gods. Hers includes never refusing a challenge from an equal, being willing to lay down your life for your comrades if it means they can survive, and never surrendering unless doing so would spare others (not yourself) pain.