OOTS #1127 - The Discussion Thread

[Bluepaw]

Mr Scruffy...

Critical hit to the ol' heartstrings.

[Fish]

I've thought for a while that what Durkula is missing is sunlight.

Durkon as much as led Durkula to this location. Tenrin liked to look up at "Thor's stars." Sigdi donated to the temple.

Is there ... a skylight in this room?

[Jasdoif]

Well, we know that she had the boots before the upgrade to 3.5, so it's possible that they're grandfathered in using 3.0 Haste.

Could be, I suppose that's the currently most likely scenario.

It doesn't account for why she's able to attack four times, though.

Lacking a better or more amusing idea, I'm going to pretend Dashing Swordsman has an ability to grant an ally a move action; and we're seeing a haste-boosted move action and haste-boosted full attack in one panel.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

I've thought for a while that what Durkula is missing is sunlight.

Durkon as much as led Durkula to this location. Tenrin liked to look up at "Thor's stars." Sigdi donated to the temple.

Is there ... a skylight in this room?

Hey, your guess is good as mine, but I think Durkula's gotten an all right look at the ceiling, so he would know to move out of the way when the sunrise goes through the skylight, if it exists.

All right theory of what the memory means, though.

[Keltest]

It doesn't account for why she's able to attack four times, though.

Lacking a better or more amusing idea, I'm going to pretend Dashing Swordsman has an ability to grant an ally a move action; and we're seeing a haste-boosted move action and haste-boosted full attack in one panel.

Or it could just be two rounds of attack. She moves in and gets off one sneak attack, then gets initiative for the next round and goes full attack for the remaining. She went last because she readied or delayed her action for Elan to provide the flank.

[Jasdoif]

Or it could just be two rounds of attack. She moves in and gets off one sneak attack, then gets initiative for the next round and goes full attack for the remaining. She went last because she readied or delayed her action for Elan to provide the flank.

Taking a readied or delayed action changes your initiative count to when you took that action; Roy would have a turn before Haley's next turn came up.

[Snails]

I've thought for a while that what Durkula is missing is sunlight.

Durkon as much as led Durkula to this location. Tenrin liked to look up at "Thor's stars." Sigdi donated to the temple.

Is there ... a skylight in this room?

Clever thought, but...

Some of those vampires crawling on the ceiling might have noticed unusual ceiling features.

How does telling Greg he is in danger, help make the danger come into fruition? Either, Myron tells Roy to yank on that lever over there or he doesn't.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Or it could just be two rounds of attack. She moves in and gets off one sneak attack, then gets initiative for the next round and goes full attack for the remaining. She went last because she readied or delayed her action for Elan to provide the flank.

Makes sense that Durkon or whoever dominated Haley is having her use an alright readied action, or else some Kobolds would be dying of laughter.

Not to mention that they got a lesson from Belkar to attack at the end of the initiative order...

[Fyraltari]

I've thought for a while that what Durkula is missing is sunlight.

Durkon as much as led Durkula to this location. Tenrin liked to look up at "Thor's stars." Sigdi donated to the temple.

Is there ... a skylight in this room?

The Order arrived in Firmament around midnight. Sunlight wouldn't be a problem to the vampires for several hours. Also they'd have noticed holes in the ceiling when they were on it.

[TheBertful]

It's not an order, so it doesn't matter. You need to be ordered to do something against your nature to trigger a new save.

The order does not need to come from the person/thing that dominated you? I looked up, and Haley was the person who 'ordered' Thanh to attack 'Shojo' back in strip #524.

[SilverCacaobean]

It doesn't account for why she's able to attack four times, though.

Lacking a better or more amusing idea, I'm going to pretend Dashing Swordsman has an ability to grant an ally a move action; and we're seeing a haste-boosted move action and haste-boosted full attack in one panel.

Or she simply snuck up as close as a five foot step behind him and full attacked next round. Rich has consistently not depicted the battles round per round perfectly rather choosing to make more dramatic portrayals.

Edit: Maybe she didn't even sneak, maybe she was just running towards him and Roy failed his spot check.

The order does not need to come from the person/thing that dominated you? I looked up, and Haley was the person who 'ordered' Thanh to attack 'Shojo' back in strip #524.

Not really, she just showed him "Shojo". He presumably had orders to attack Tsukiko's enemies from before.

[Mandor]

Yea, that's REALLY not looking good for our heroes. V is down. Belkar is down. Elan and Haley are still dominated. Roy is hurt bad. Durkon is still imprisoned in Greg. Hilyga Dominated. Minrah unlikely to suddenly turn into Supergirl.

Short of a major miracle here, they could lose, and losing here would mean TPK.
I.... kinda doubt Roy will just be able to Shazam his way past this with Green Fire again though. He's done that once, and you don't want to overdue that kind of power and have Deus Ex.

Curious to see how they make it past this one. Or, if they die, how it somehow ends up not being the end of it all.

Nice to see the Lime Green Boots of Speed again, though.

[Mandor]

If Roy dies, the Order is completely toast, since the Cleric is blind and everyone else is either knocked out or dominated. If the Order is completely toast, Elan definitely wonkt have an ending that would qualify as “happy”.

So I think Roy will be fine (given the circumstances). Am I missing something?

One could argue Elan already had his happy ending in Girard's illusions. I don't think you can take it for granted that it's still coming.

[Ghosty]

The Order arrived in Firmament around midnight. Sunlight wouldn't be a problem to the vampires for several hours. Also they'd have noticed holes in the ceiling when they were on it.

Aren't they in Odin's temple/hall, and isn't the observatory in Thor's? Otherwise, nice idea.

I've given up trying to predict where this'll go, other than it'll be something that Durkon shows Greg, that stops him from TPK'ing the Order.

I like what one person upthread or a thread ago posted, re: where's our lovable Epic halfling rogue and is she possible present somewhere in a disguised form.

I'd expect something from Kraagor to be relevant or mentioned in Firmament---how many Epic Dwarven barbarians were there running around in Stickworld? (At least he can't be Durkon's dad, right?)---but that hasn't happened yet either. Strange that Haley and Elan weren't fighting more effectively until now, but the Dominate effect has unlimited range and takes a move action to change commands to the subject, so there's been enough time to get them to fight a bit more effectively. Do we think Sigdi shows up at some point? She's still around, right?

You'd think that inviting inside your sanctum a high level cleric, with a panoply of touch healing attacks that are lethal to undead, would be a bad idea for Greg, but I'm not seeing yet how Hilgya will break the compulsion.

Loving the updates, and I'm very eager to see how Durkon's plan against Greg turns out.

[Ghosty]

...I.... kinda doubt Roy will just be able to Shazam his way past this with Green Fire again though. He's done that once, and you don't want to overdue that kind of power and have Deus Ex...

How would it be a 'Deus Ex' if he did? He's a very high level fighter, with giant-level strength, and a super-greatsword purpose built for killing undead (and it returns when he throws it!), plus he's under an 8th-level mind-protection spell. All of that's been shown in earlier strips. He should be stacking and dusting vampires as fast as he can reach them. About the only thing he should be sweating are negative levels, and the sword protects against those too!

If anything, it's a bit inexplicable that these vamps have been giving the Order this much trouble.

[Goblin_Priest]

The glasses, I presume, not only hide the swirly eyes, but will also hide their absence. I bet once he breaks out of the domination, he'll pretend he's still under the influence, to then sneak a decisive blow on the vampires.

[Tom Lehmann]

The thing that is bothering me the most about the True Rez being for Durkon is Panel 18.

Why? One Priest is extremely surprised that the baby survived; while the other praises Thor. That sure sounds like an unexpected high-level clerical spell was used to accomplish the deed, undoing the effects of the miscarriage from the damage taken.

[rferries]

Yeah, that's my biggest issue with the most prominent theories right now - I have no idea how a memory of someone, regardless of who, being resurrected will actually help them here.

I don't think it'll be satisfying if Greg is distracted at a critical moment - I think it's more likely that Durkon will persuade him to forsake Hel somehow. There was the earlier clue about Greg absorbing some of Durkon's accent - I don't think Greg will turn good but he might decide to oppose Hel out of enlightened self-interest (or maybe even spite)... perhaps it'll be revealed that if Hel remakes the world the vampires' spirits will be destroyed, unlike mortal souls?

[tyckspoon]

How would it be a 'Deus Ex' if he did? He's a very high level fighter, with giant-level strength, and a super-greatsword purpose built for killing undead (and it returns when he throws it!), plus he's under an 8th-level mind-protection spell. All of that's been shown in earlier strips. He should be stacking and dusting vampires as fast as he can reach them. About the only thing he should be sweating are negative levels, and the sword protects against those too!

The sword doesn't protect against negative levels. It may restore them in its healing surge effect. But assuming the effect that restored him in the Godsmoot fight was meant to be Heal, that's actually like the one thing Heal specifically doesn't fix (it's possible it's just 'you are restored to full condition' and not meant to evoke a specific in-game effect, but we don't really have a way to confirm one way or the other on that.)

I'll note that Roy was actually dusting spawn and possibly a few full (but likely low-level) Vampires about as quickly as he could take actions; the problem was he had to do it at range, and throwing and recalling the sword appears to be a full-round action. If they'd tried to swarm him in melee, you would have seen probably three to five of them getting dusted at a go from multiple attacks and Cleave. Since they didn't, he has to do it in a severely inefficient fashion.

[Shoelessgdowar]

And Durkula forfeits. The agreement was Durkula lets Kudzu live at least until Hel destroys the world, Dwarfling Shield is clearly jeopardizing Kudzu's health, so it is not letting him live (being alive is not living, having an enjoyable existence is, the moment Kudzu cried, Durkula fotfeited). Since Durkula has violated the mental/spiritual/psychic contract, he forfeits all rights to actions and thoughts, he must cease all actions that would jeopardize Kudzu's well-being, including aiding Hel, and must actively endeavor to make Kudzu's life as long, happy, and fulfilling as Dwarvenly possible (this is why you NEVER violate Mental/Spiritual/Psychic Contracts, because you can never fully know what is in the subconscious and unconscious fine thoughtprint).

[Askthepizzaguy]

Something about Tenrin's off-panel death has me churning up ideas.

I haven't thought this through or looked for clues and did super sleuthing like many folks here, and I don't see how it can relate to Durkon's plans. But, this is where the pieces are fitting together in my mind as I am trying to understand where we are going with this.

I am spoiling on the long shot chance any of this is correct.

Spoiler

Show

1. Tenrin's body was never found.

2. He was trapped deep in stone with a troll that regenerates and doesn't die from simple injuries, or even the weapons that Tenrin had on him. Tenrin could not slay the troll with the weapons he had on him, period.

3. It does not appear any attempts at True resurrection brought Tenrin back. Maybe, not even ever attempted.

4. I disagree with the idea the resurrection was used on Durkon the unborn child. I think the comic shows Fetus Durkon survived the cave-in.

5. True resurrection would not bring back a person who is alive, anyway.

6. Tenrin would therefore be trapped inside rock with a dangerous dragon-troll that constantly regenerates, as trolls do, but is trapped inside rock. Possibly providing Tenrin with a source of food, like the Hydra that was shown earlier in the comic which was still alive but regenerated. It provides a constant source of food, and it would have been a typical Giant foreshadowing technique to show us that something like this was possible in a gag comic from a long time ago.

7. Water can seep in through broken rocks, enough to keep Tenrin alive, along with his constant source of food.

8. Tenrin does not simply try to tunnel out, because if he does, he provides a way for the dragon-troll to also escape and terrorize the Dwarven village. Out of a sense of duty and protecting his family, he instead camps next to the dragon-troll for decades. He also cannot commit suicide, because then he cannot die with honor.

9. Vaarsuvius slays the dragon-troll inadvertently with the FAMILICIDE epic spell, not that long ago in-comic time. This provides Tenrin with the opportunity to finally escape, after all these years, since the troll is finally dead.

10. Present day, Tenrin could be about to appear, because he is now free. It was Tuesday, now, after midnight, it is Odin's day, Wednesday. He might show up in this particular hall, because he might need to find people to help him find his wife, and the rest of the place is deserted. And he figures since it is Odin's day, they are sure to end up assembling in this particular hall dedicated to the worship of Odin on his holiest day. (Do I have the days right?)

....

That's the idea, such as it is.

However, I still think it might be more likely that Hilgya or Belkar are the ones more narratively equipped to turn the tide of battle. Possibly with a little help from our newest cleric added to the team, and Scruffy.

11. All I think Tenrin appearing would do would be to break Durkula's concentration, because he is Durkon on his worst day. His father suddenly appearing, alive, would surprise even Durkula himself and make him blow a concentration check.

12. Durkula's concentration is blown, and suddenly, Hilgya and Belkar are free.

13. Hilgya gets re-dominated because she is the most obvious imminent threat, but she manages to dispel the anti life shell and damage the other vampires heavily, Durkula included.

14. Then, Belkar alone is awake, not damaged, and not dominated. He activates his Protection From Mind Whammy Or Whatever clasp, and he cannot become re-dominated. Then he kicks the ass of his favored enemy, the undead man who stole Durkon away from us and tormented him just by existing, but also by his actions. Belkar stakes Durkula, redeeming himself and saving the entire order of the stick.

15. Now Durkon can finally be resurrected, and he is.

Problems:

It just isn't something Durkon can have planned, or known about in advance. So I think there's a different motive behind this backstory exposition. But getting Durkula into this particular hall was deliberate, and it has to do with it being Wednesday.

It's nice, but I don't think it completely fits. I am missing something even if any of this is right.

If you think this theory has any merit or not, please spoiler it if/when you discuss.

I have made several bad guesses so far. So I don't know how much I believe this.

I also like the Sabine idea someone had. Issue with that is she (Hilgya) was shown as pregnant in her exposition, and I believe it is real because of the family theme Giant has going on. She could be lying and deceiving, which she is almost compelled to do as her character. But something about it feels off.

I think it can happen, I just don't think it is exactly the solution. But hey, I wouldn't be surprised if none of us know nor can guess exactly what is about to happen. And if someone does, it won't be me, not with my track record.

[Knaight]

I've thought for a while that what Durkula is missing is sunlight.

Durkon as much as led Durkula to this location. Tenrin liked to look up at "Thor's stars." Sigdi donated to the temple.

Is there ... a skylight in this room?

I'm not in any way convinced by this hypothesis, but it does have a few things going for it beyond this - starting with how Roy explicitly has Knowledge: Architecture ranks, and Durkon knows that. That said, it doesn't seem to fit in well with the memories we've seen or the whole concept of connections between memories - though there's still one memory to finish.

[Psyren]

I doubt Familicide has any relation to Sigdi's troll. It was immune to fire in the story, and black dragons are immune to acid.

Belkar did go down like a sack of potatoes, unless it's some trick on his part. He should be too durable to be taken down by a couple of sword hits.

THUNK and WHAP looks like a couple of power attacks in quick succession to me. Roy also seems to me the type to grab Subduing Strike as one of his bonus feats since he likes knocking fools out nonlethally so much.

[eilandesq]

I'm not in any way convinced by this hypothesis, but it does have a few things going for it beyond this - starting with how Roy explicitly has Knowledge: Architecture ranks, and Durkon knows that. That said, it doesn't seem to fit in well with the memories we've seen or the whole concept of connections between memories - though there's still one memory to finish.

So maybe Roy spots a lever that seems to have no obvious purpose, then notices a crack in the center of the roof?

[eilandesq]

I doubt Familicide has any relation to Sigdi's troll. It was immune to fire in the story, and black dragons are immune to acid.



THUNK and WHAP looks like a couple of power attacks in quick succession to me. Roy also seems to me the type to grab Subduing Strike as one of his bonus feats since he likes knocking fools out nonlethally so much.

Let's hope so, because Elan or Haley need to go down for the count next, or Roy's dead. Two or three more Sneak attacks would be it for Roy, I think.

[gerryq]

Belkar did go down like a sack of potatoes, unless it's some trick on his part. He should be too durable to be taken down by a couple of sword hits.

His eyes aren't XX. They are closed. And Mr. Scruffy came back to him.

I think Belkar is coming out of it.

[WindStruck]

Get your adamantine steak knives! Only fifty easy payments of 60 gp. They never grow dull! No matter how tough your leader's armor is!

[Mandor]

And Durkula forfeits. The agreement was Durkula lets Kudzu live at least until Hel destroys the world, Dwarfling Shield is clearly jeopardizing Kudzu's health, so it is not letting him live (being alive is not living, having an enjoyable existence is, the moment Kudzu cried, Durkula fotfeited). Since Durkula has violated the mental/spiritual/psychic contract, he forfeits all rights to actions and thoughts, he must cease all actions that would jeopardize Kudzu's well-being, including aiding Hel, and must actively endeavor to make Kudzu's life as long, happy, and fulfilling as Dwarvenly possible (this is why you NEVER violate Mental/Spiritual/Psychic Contracts, because you can never fully know what is in the subconscious and unconscious fine thoughtprint).

May you never find yourself trying to make (and win) an argument like that in an actual court of law against a competent lawyer.

Lawful Evil doesnt' give two rips about how YOU interpret their promise. In fact, they will cackle with delight if you interpret them wrong. But they will not be bound by any more than precisely what they said, and even then good luck trying to get them to abandon THEIR position.
Besides, even if Greg did forfeit? Okay... then Durkon .... just doesnt' have to be quiet? Can keep offering more dstractions beyond the current memory?

[Peelee]

May you never find yourself trying to make (and win) an argument like that in an actual court of law against a competent lawyer.

Eh, it's about part for the course as far as their arguments tend to go.

[Jay R]

And Durkula forfeits. The agreement was Durkula lets Kudzu live at least until Hel destroys the world, ...

Don't be silly. If that is true, then he does not forfeit while Kudzu lives.