Telflammar Vindicator

[cartejos]

Making a telflammar shadowlord ruby knight vindicator ur-priest
Wizard 1/Rogue 3/Crusader 1/Ur-Priest 2/RKV 2/Telflammar Shadowlord 4/RKV +7

Needs High wis to get ANY 9th level spell slots, but is possible

Wizard 1: Mostly here because of the needed boost to Will save, but also provides a fighter bonus feat, all Knowledge and Spellcraft as class skills, and the Conjuration Specialist ACF that grants a 10' teleport int per day.

Rogue 3: High skill points help keep up the skills, without the Education feat you need a 14 int in order to get all the skill points in order to get the Ur-Priest skills in time. Gets 2D6 sneak attack for Shadowlord. And finally, boosts Fort and Will saves by +1 in order to get to their destinations of +3 at 5.

Crusader 1: Qualifies for RKV with Devoted maneuvers and stances. Gets +2 Fort, topping off that save. I've always been fond of the delayed damage pool as well, even if it is low for the dip, it's still almost +5 free HP and +1 free Attack and Damage... almost.

Ur-Priest 2: Gets Rebuke Undead to qualify for RKV, starts casting progression for DimDoor for shadowlord.

RKV 2: May have to be RKV 3 without having proper Wis setup for an extra 4th level spell slot at this level. Otherwise progresses initiator levels and casting.

Telflammar Shadowlord 4: Shadow Sight, Shadow Jump, and Shadow Blur are all okay and all, but Shadow Pounce is amazing. Core of the build and why I wanted to jam it in with RKV.

RKV +7: Only +6 if third level is taken earlier. Advances casting and gets the Divine Impetus which could be amazing with shadow pounce.

One of the biggest issues with this is you get Initiator Level 13 on level 18, with a strict DM this will prevent you from taking Martial Study for Shadow Blink. But with a lenient DM the world is yours. Although this may be a bit tricksy for the DM to really be okay with. Perhaps on level 19-20 there is a full Divine caster PrC that gives a Fighter Bonus feat?


This is my take on what I think might be a very interesting build. Improvements are welcome. Suggestions of alternative builds should be limited to those that include 9th level casting, shadow pounce, and RKV 7.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'm thinking you can drop rogue 2-3 for cleric 1/spellthief 1 (trade your domains for feats), and then drop Ur-Priest 2, taking the tenth level of RKV, which gets you an extra maneuver. You probably need to be a cleric of an ideal, but since you're allowing Ur-Priest RKV, that shouldn't be too much of an issue. Cloistered cleric can even replace wizard; if you go that route, you can pick up extra Fortitude with crusader 2 (as in cloistered cleric 1/rogue 1/spellthief 1/crusader 2/ur-priest 1/RKV 10/TSL 4) for an even higher initiator level (16 @ ECL 20). Since that extra IL doesn't get you more maneuvers, it's probably better to keep Abrupt Jaunt.

Edit: If you're not using fractional saves, cloistered cleric won't get you the required saves, so regular cleric would be better.

[Nifft]

How are you meeting the qualification of worshiping Wee Jas for RKV and simultaneously being an Ur-Priest?

If you're allowed to ignore that prereq, can you ignore other prereqs too?

[cartejos]

There is a custom evil deity in this campaign with the clause "Worshipping this deity qualifies you for any effect requiring worship of another deity"

[GrayDeath]

Which still does not work with Ur-Priests "cant worship any Deity" limitation, or are there other aspects we dont know?

[Darrin]

One of the biggest issues with this is you get Initiator Level 13 on level 18, with a strict DM this will prevent you from taking Martial Study for Shadow Blink.

I cannot imagine any reasonable argument for why you can't take Martial Study at level 18. Your IL is 13, that's high enough for Shadow Blink.

Which still does not work with Ur-Priests "cant worship any Deity" limitation, or are there other aspects we dont know?

That's not actually a requirement for Ur-Preists. They can worship a deity, they just have to make sure they don't get any divine spells from one.

[Nifft]

That's not actually a requirement for Ur-Preists. They can worship a deity, they just have to make sure they don't get any divine spells from one.

Ur-Priests despise gods.

They get spells without worship.

[cartejos]

The deity is an Elder Evil of some sort, I haven't gotten many of the details as those are supposed to be discovered in the campaign. So, flavor wise since not worshipping a deity is more flavor than crunch, worshipping an Elder Evil that is bent on the destruction of the rest of the pantheons would work dutifully, I did leave that part out as I did sweep past the importance of the rest of the function of the deity in my head

[Sir_Chivalry]

Ur-Priests despise gods.

They get spells without worship.

That doesn't change the class' actual prerequisites though.

I agree that someone following Wee Jas (a fairly cooperative goddess within her pantheon) might need a reason to be an ur-priest (the siphoning of magic power into a hidden wellspring the Wee Jas did to her own power in some writing?) but from a RAW perspective there's little stopping it

[Nifft]

That doesn't change the class' actual prerequisites though.

Correct, what it impacts is your ability to worship Wee Jas, which is the mechanical prerequisite for the OTHER class. It's an incompatibility between TWO classes, not just within a single class.

You can't worship and not-worship at the same time.

[Sir_Chivalry]

Correct, what it impacts is your ability to worship Wee Jas, which is the mechanical prerequisite for the OTHER class. It's an incompatibility between TWO classes, not just within a single class.

You can't worship and not-worship at the same time.

And again, Ur-Priest never says in its prerequisites that you cannot worship a deity. So it has no bearing on your ability to worship Wee Jas.

No prerequisites are being ignored. You're free as DM to impose extra restrictions but the rules themselves aren't one of the things supporting your position.

[Nifft]

And again, Ur-Priest never says in its prerequisites that you cannot worship a deity.

Ur-Priest says you despise all gods.

Ruby Knight Vindicator requires that you worship one god.

You can't despise all gods and worship one god. Despising all gods means you don't worship any of them, and the rules say that you get spells without worship -- there's no rule which allows an Ur-Priest to get spells with worship, so maybe if you give up all spellcasting you can get into RKV? But that seems like a dumb move.

Anyway, the prohibition against worship is not a prerequisite of Ur-Priest, it's a consequence of being an Ur-Priest. The prerequisite which is violated is RKV's stipulation that you must worship Wee Jas. Being an Ur-Priest means you don't worship anyone (by definition, not by prerequisite).

Hope that makes it clear enough.

[Sir_Chivalry]

Ur-Priest says you despise all gods.

Ruby Knight Vindicator requires that you worship one god.

You can't despise all gods and worship one god. Despising all gods means you don't worship any of them, and the rules say that you get spells without worship -- there's no rule which allows an Ur-Priest to get spells with worship, so maybe if you give up all spellcasting you can get into RKV? But that seems like a dumb move.

Anyway, the prohibition against worship is not a prerequisite of Ur-Priest, it's a consequence of being an Ur-Priest. The prerequisite which is violated is RKV's stipulation that you must worship Wee Jas. Being an Ur-Priest means you don't worship anyone (by definition, not by prerequisite).

Hope that makes it clear enough.

Your quoted text does not in fact say "all" so there's not a conflict in prerequisites, once again.

Both BoVD and Complete Divine use the same paragraph so it's not a discrepancy between editions or versions of the class

"Ur-Priests despise gods" is not "Ur-Priests despise all gods" which is what your argument seems to hinge on above.

So a LE non-"divine spellcaster" can in fact be both. Again, maybe not in your game, but your opinion doesn't make it a rule.

Could steal divine energy, for instance, from only the Baklunish, Flan and Oeridian gods, leaving the Suel Pantheon alone. Classical enemies of Wee Jas' followers back in the time of the Imperium (and in the years that followed). Or could be certifiably crazy.

Edit: a better argument would be that Ur-Priest was never intended for this purpose and is meant to be a practice guarded by the Vasharan and used exclusively by that race of vile humans. For there to be a Vasharan who overcame their racial hatred of every other humanoid and human group to teach any person the techniques of the Ur-Priest would be a 1/10,000 occurrence and simply wouldn't happen enough to make Ur-Priest a viable option among any groups anywhere outside the Vasharan

[cartejos]

Well, the campaign has a custom Elder Evil who has the clause "Worship of this Evil counts as worship of any god in order for meeting prerequisites"

I've stated it before but in snippets in different comments, so to put it all together

Not worshipping any gods, worshipping an Elder Evil
Worship of this Elder Evil counts as Worship of Wee Jas for RKV

Works? I can post a link to a thread I had a little while ago about it, but some of the details may have changed since that thread, since the campaign has been delayed a while

[Nifft]

Well, the campaign has a custom Elder Evil who has the clause "Worship of this Evil counts as worship of any god in order for meeting prerequisites"

I've stated it before but in snippets in different comments, so to put it all together

Not worshipping any gods, worshipping an Elder Evil
Worship of this Elder Evil counts as Worship of Wee Jas for RKV

Works? I can post a link to a thread I had a little while ago about it, but some of the details may have changed since that thread, since the campaign has been delayed a while

Ah, that's certainly a viable work-around.

Okay, objection withdrawn.