Swift Hunter Level progression

[Master O'Laughs]

So about 7 months ago I created a thread about making a swift hunter character. Well we are finally nearing the start of the campaign and I wanted to finalize how the actual level progression would go to make everything legal.

The campaign is picking up at lvl 11. Source restrictions are PHB 1&2, DMG, MM, Unearthed Arcana, the Complete series of books. Everything else would need to be approved on a case by case basis (ex: spell compendium spells are not auto-include and may be changed if he thinks they are too strong).

With all that in mind, here is what I am thinking:

Race: Human
Deity: Sehanine Moonbow

Attributes (Custom Array):
Str: 14 (could swap with Cha)
Dex: 20 (both increases from lvl 4 & 8)
Con: 16
Int: 17
Wis: 15
Cha: 13 (could swap with Str)

Class Lvls: Scout 4/Cloistered Cleric 1/Ranger 6

Feats @ lvl 11:
L1 S1:
L1 Human: Able Learner (in process of being approved)
L1 Flaw:
L2 CC1: Travel Devotion (swap domain)
L2 CC1: Knowledge devotion (swap domain)
L2 CC1: Point-blank shot (elf domain)
L3 S2: Precise shot
L4 R1: Track (bonus)
L5 R2: Rapid Shot (Combat Style)
L6 S3: Swift Hunter
L7 R3: Endurance (bonus)
L9 R5: Craft Wondrous Items (to stretch that starting gold)
L10 R6: Many shot (Improved Combat Style)
L11 S4: Improved Skirmish (bonus feat)

Desired Feats (Either unsure how to work in at lvl 11 or would require DM approval):
Improved Precise Shot
Nemesis
Improved Favored Enemies (since limited sources to pull from)
Improved Initiative or Quick Reconnoiter (Due to limited sources)

Favored Enemies:
Undead (There is a vampire faction I was enslaved by)
Outsiders (Evil) (Orcus and demons invaded the world and we are hunting down the remnants)
Elementals (There were evil elementals faced in last campaign as well)

ACF:
Distracting Attack
Spiritual Connection (possibly)

I did get the splitting weapon enchantment approved by my DM so hooray for me. I am curious what what feats to get at level 1 and if I should switch the level progression around to make things work better. Since starting at lvl 11 it gives some flexibility for having to be viable in combat up until then. I do want to make sure it is legal though.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[Master O'Laughs]

Mulling it over, if I switched out the elf domain for something else, I can take point blank shot and precise shot at level 1. I can also push the cloistered cleric levels until lvl 10 allowing improved precise shot at lvl 9 or at least re-trainable for the lvl 9 feat.

Another question is how does the worship of a pantheon work? I would be worshiping the Seldarine pantheon cause it makes sense story-wise. What would be the best replacement domain for Elf be in the Seldarine pantheon?

I was thinking either time (improved initiative) or war (if I could choose longbow as the favored weapon for weapon focus)

[DarkSoul]

War, for proficiency and focus, but it also opens up War Devotion (CCh) for a static 4+ point damage bonus. Solonor Thelandira or Shevarash have the longbow as their favored weapon.

[Darrin]

Another question is how does the worship of a pantheon work?

It only works for certain pantheons: Asgardian, Olympian, and Pharoanic pantheons from Deities & Demigods, or the Sovereign Host and Dark Six from Eberron.

Asgardian generally works best, as you can select either the Magic or War domain, and it offers longbow as a preferred weapon. The Olympian and Pharoanic pantheons don't list longbow as a preferred weapon.

Unfortunately, Deities & Demigods was printed early in the 3.0 era, and it doesn't include any of the domains that were published in subsequent sourcebooks. So by RAW, there's no way to add things like Time or Planning to the Asgardian pantheon... you'd need the DM to add Time to Odin, for example (he should have it).

I would be worshiping the Seldarine pantheon cause it makes sense story-wise.

A human worshipping elven deities? Ok.

What would be the best replacement domain for Elf be in the Seldarine pantheon?

I'm partial to the draconic deity Io, who has Dragon, Knowledge, Magic,
Strength, Travel, Wealth and Spell domains in his portfolio. Magic gives you access to spell-trigger items as a wizard, and Strength gives you enlarge person.

Other things to consider:

Take the Spiritual Connection ACF (Complete Champion) to swap Wild Empathy for speak with animals/plants 3/day. Trade your animal companion for the Distracting Attack ACF (PHBII) or the Spiritual Guide ACF (Complete Champion).

If you start with Scout 4/Ranger 5/Cloistered Cleric 1, and pick up Manyshot via the Champion of the Wild ACF (Complete Champion), you can finish the back half of the build with Dragon Devotee 4/Unseen Seer 4/Highland Stalker 2. This gets you 8d6/10d6 Skirmish damage. You can bump it up another +1d6 with Dragonfire Strike (Dragon Magic).

I also like to add Dragonborn of Bahamut to my Swift Hunters. Instead of losing your human bonus feat, you can lose any of your other feats, such as... oh, hello, Endurance... what have you done for me lately? You can also trade one of your existing feats, such as Shield Proficiency (by RAW rangers get this as a bonus feat) for either Dragon Tail or Dragon Wings. The former adds a tail attack to your full attack routine, and the latter puts you one feat away from a true Fly speed if you took the Heart aspect for the breath weapon.

I don't see Greater Manyshot in there... are you taking that at 12th level?

[Master O'Laughs]

A human worshipping elven deities? Ok.

I was a basically food for vampires. I was able to escape and the only other Race were the elves who grudgingly co-existed with them. I took shelter with them and that is how I came to worship Elven deities.

Other things to consider:

Take the Spiritual Connection ACF (Complete Champion) to swap Wild Empathy for speak with animals/plants 3/day. Trade your animal companion for the Distracting Attack ACF (PHBII) or the Spiritual Guide ACF (Complete Champion).

Apparently ACFs are not a given, I am working on getting distracting attack approved by DM (he has to read it and make a decision). I saw Spiritual Connection and may try to get that approved as well.

If you start with Scout 4/Ranger 5/Cloistered Cleric 1, and pick up Manyshot via the Champion of the Wild ACF (Complete Champion), you can finish the back half of the build with Dragon Devotee 4/Unseen Seer 4/Highland Stalker 2. This gets you 8d6/10d6 Skirmish damage. You can bump it up another +1d6 with Dragonfire Strike (Dragon Magic).

How does that affect favored enemy progression? I know more skirmish damage would be better with the amount of attacks I will be making, but I am curious.

I don't see Greater Manyshot in there... are you taking that at 12th level?

I plan on focusing on rapid shot. With travel devotion I can move as a swift action for a minute 3 times per day. This will allow me to move the 20ft required for improved skirmish. I may take Greater Rapid Shot to get rid of the -2 to hit but I was going to avoid Greater Many Shot. Part of this is a party member is a sorcerer who likes to cast haste on the party.

[Darrin]

How does that affect favored enemy progression? I know more skirmish damage would be better with the amount of attacks I will be making, but I am curious.

You get two favored enemies, preferably Undead and Constructs. Swift Hunter allows you to deal precision damage to types that are normally immune: undead, constructs, elementals, oozes, and plants. Undead and constructs tend to be the two most commonly encountered types, or at least the two most common in the monster manuals.

If you need additional favored enemies, there's an Extra Favored Enemy feat in Masters of the Wild.

The main drawback with Champion of the Wild is you lose access to ranger spells and ranger wands, so no instant of power, swift haste, hunter's eye, etc. You get some of that back with Dragon Devotee 3, which gives you Sorcerer spellcasting, but you're still missing a lot of the ranger-only spells.

I plan on focusing on rapid shot. With travel devotion I can move as a swift action for a minute 3 times per day. This will allow me to move the 20ft required for improved skirmish. I may take Greater Rapid Shot to get rid of the -2 to hit but I was going to avoid Greater Many Shot. Part of this is a party member is a sorcerer who likes to cast haste on the party.

It infuriates me that Manyshot is a prereq for Improved Rapid Shot.

I'd consider putting your 12th level ability score increase on Cha so you get another Turn Undead for Travel Devotion. Presumably Reliquary Holy Symbol and/or Nightstick is on your shopping list already.

[Master O'Laughs]

You get two favored enemies, preferably Undead and Constructs. Swift Hunter allows you to deal precision damage to types that are normally immune: undead, constructs, elementals, oozes, and plants. Undead and constructs tend to be the two most commonly encountered types, or at least the two most common in the monster manuals.

If you need additional favored enemies, there's an Extra Favored Enemy feat in Masters of the Wild.

The main drawback with Champion of the Wild is you lose access to ranger spells and ranger wands, so no instant of power, swift haste, hunter's eye, etc. You get some of that back with Dragon Devotee 3, which gives you Sorcerer spellcasting, but you're still missing a lot of the ranger-only spells.



It infuriates me that Manyshot is a prereq for Improved Rapid Shot.

I'd consider putting your 12th level ability score increase on Cha so you get another Turn Undead for Travel Devotion. Presumably Reliquary Holy Symbol and/or Nightstick is on your shopping list already.

Anything outside the sources sited in the initial post would be subject to DM approval. I know he is very suspicious of the Magic Item Compendium so I would think Night sticks and Reliquary Holy symbol would be denied. Also, the group rarely had more than 2 fights per day in the first half of the campaign so I am okay with having 3 uses.

As far as favored enemies, in the first half of the campaign, we fought mostly humanoids until the last 1/3 where demons and some evil elementals became the only/main bad guy. I think we encountered only 1 construct and 1 plant the entire time. That is why I am looking at the undead (story reasons and it is a solid pick), Evil Outsiders (story pick and common enemy), and Elementals (decent choice, has been seen in campaign as well with some frequency).

[Fouredged Sword]

I would focus on naturally crit immune foes. That is swift hunters main selling point - it can skermish normally immune things that are favored enemies.

Just pick up a quiver of evil outsider bane arrows for those. 2+2d6 damage.

[Master O'Laughs]

L1 S1 Point-Blank Shot
L1 Human Able Learner
L1 Flaw (Noncombatant) Precise Shot
L3 S3
L4 R1 BF Track
L5 R2 CS Rapid Shot
L6 R3 Swift Hunter
L6 R3 BF Endurance
L9 R6 Craft Wondrous Items
L9 R6 ICS Many Shot
L10 CC D1 Travel Devotion
L10 CC D2 Knowledge Devotion
L10 CC D3 Improved Initiative
L11 S4 Improved Skirmish

What would be best for the level 3 feat? Would tactile trapsmith be worth it? I have +3 Int modifier and dex (before any items) is +5. Other thoughts are Quick reconnoiter, though I am unsure of usefulness (if explained I would be greatly appreciative).

Again these would be subject to approval but I am also eyeing Nymph's Kiss and Nemesis.

[Darrin]

What would be best for the level 3 feat? Would tactile trapsmith be worth it? I have +3 Int modifier and dex (before any items) is +5. Other thoughts are Quick reconnoiter, though I am unsure of usefulness (if explained I would be greatly appreciative).

Again these would be subject to approval but I am also eyeing Nymph's Kiss and Nemesis.

Check and see if you can get the Dead Eye feat approved, from Dragon Compendium. You'll want to note the errata, because the BAB requirement should be +1, not +14.

Otherwise... I would not recommend Tactile Trapsmith for +2 on a skill check that doesn't come up all that often. Quick Reconnoiter I'd also recommend against, unless your DM is particularly obstinate about Listen/Spot checks. Normally, most PCs are allowed a free Listen/Spot check every round. If you specifically ask for a Listen/Spot after your free check, then it's supposed to count as a move action. However, a lot of DMs are more casual about these checks, and may not require a move action. In any case, it's somewhat rare to make multiple Listen/Spot checks on the same turn. I'd rather have a feat that I know I'm going to use more often.

I like Nemesis, but you'd have to rearrange when you take your first level of Ranger to pick it up at 3rd.

I'd also consider picking up Ancestral Relic at 3rd. More specifically, an elvencraft composite longbow with two (or three) wand chambers. This allows you to convert loot at full market value directly into weapon enhancements for the bow or both ends of the quarterstaff.

[Master O'Laughs]

Check and see if you can get the Dead Eye feat approved, from Dragon Compendium. You'll want to note the errata, because the BAB requirement should be +1, not +14.

Otherwise... I would not recommend Tactile Trapsmith for +2 on a skill check that doesn't come up all that often. Quick Reconnoiter I'd also recommend against, unless your DM is particularly obstinate about Listen/Spot checks. Normally, most PCs are allowed a free Listen/Spot check every round. If you specifically ask for a Listen/Spot after your free check, then it's supposed to count as a move action. However, a lot of DMs are more casual about these checks, and may not require a move action. In any case, it's somewhat rare to make multiple Listen/Spot checks on the same turn. I'd rather have a feat that I know I'm going to use more often.

I like Nemesis, but you'd have to rearrange when you take your first level of Ranger to pick it up at 3rd.

I'd also consider picking up Ancestral Relic at 3rd. More specifically, an elvencraft composite longbow with two (or three) wand chambers. This allows you to convert loot at full market value directly into weapon enhancements for the bow or both ends of the quarterstaff.

Wow, yeah Deadeye is a nice feat. I would have to take weapon focus at lvl 3 then and could push back swift hunter until later, maybe retrain something else like Craft Wondrous Item at lvl 10 to set up taking improved skirmish at 11.

[Darrin]

Wow, yeah Deadeye is a nice feat. I would have to take weapon focus at lvl 3 then and could push back swift hunter until later, maybe retrain something else like Craft Wondrous Item at lvl 10 to set up taking improved skirmish at 11.

If you take Solonor Thelandira as your deity, you can get the Elf and War domains, take Travel at 1st, and Dead Eye at 3rd:

L1 S1 Travel Devotion
L1 Human Able Learner
L1 Flaw (Noncombatant) Precise Shot
L2 S2
L3 CC D1 Weapon Focus (War Domain)
L3 CC D2 Point-Blank Shot (Elf Domain)
L3 CC D3 Knowledge Devotion
L3 CC Dead Eye
L4 R1 BF Track
L5 R2 CS Rapid Shot
L6 R3 Swift Hunter
L6 R3 BF Endurance
L9 R6 Craft Wondrous Items
L9 R6 ICS Many Shot
L10 S3
L11 S4 Improved Skirmish


You lose Improved Initiative, but you may be able to make that up with items (Dragonfly Medallion from A&EG, or add the Warning property to your bow/armor spikes).

[Master O'Laughs]

If you take Solonor Thelandira as your deity, you can get the Elf and War domains, take Travel at 1st, and Dead Eye at 3rd:

L1 S1 Travel Devotion
L1 Human Able Learner
L1 Flaw (Noncombatant) Precise Shot
L2 S2
L3 CC D1 Weapon Focus (War Domain)
L3 CC D2 Point-Blank Shot (Elf Domain)
L3 CC D3 Knowledge Devotion
L3 CC Dead Eye
L4 R1 BF Track
L5 R2 CS Rapid Shot
L6 R3 Swift Hunter
L6 R3 BF Endurance
L9 R6 Craft Wondrous Items
L9 R6 ICS Many Shot
L10 S3
L11 S4 Improved Skirmish


You lose Improved Initiative, but you may be able to make that up with items (Dragonfly Medallion from A&EG, or add the Warning property to your bow/armor spikes).

That would work well. The only issue being Precise shot requiring Point Blank Shot. But I could take PBS at lvl 3. Lvl 4 would have to be another Scout level to allow retraining of Craft Wondrous Item into Swift Hunter. That then allows for a free feat at lvl 1, but it would have to be something general like improved initiative funnily enough.

[Master O'Laughs]

Out of curiosity, when would the bonus received from tactile trapsmith make the feat worth it?

Currently the bonus from dex over int would only be a +2 (+3 if I start with gloves of dexterity). Is a +4 or +5 bonus worth it?

[Fouredged Sword]

Almost never. Consider skill focus, a flat +3. Skill focus is a pretty useless feat.

Unless your stats have a 6 point difference skill focus is a better feat, and skill focus is not a good feat to begin with.

Buy a +6 to disable device item or something. Feats are rare. Spend them on new things, not small bonuses to existing things.

[Darrin]

Out of curiosity, when would the bonus received from tactile trapsmith make the feat worth it?

Currently the bonus from dex over int would only be a +2 (+3 if I start with gloves of dexterity). Is a +4 or +5 bonus worth it?

That depends a great deal on how often the DM uses traps, and how high the DCs tend to be.

Outside of that, you'd want a difference higher than at least +3, which is what you get from Skill Focus. However, Skill Focus is widely regarded as a terrible feat. I'm not really a big fan of feats that give bonuses to skill checks, when you can increase your bonus on that check just by leveling up and putting more skill ranks in that skill. You'd also have to assume that after you've cranked up your Search/Disable Device checks to a humongous bonus, the DM won't deliberately (or even unconsciously) adjust the detect/disable DCs even higher to make sure traps are still a "challenge" for you. Or if the DM doesn't adjust the DCs, then you may have a high enough modifier that traps are no longer a threat to the party, in which case the DM stops using traps altogether... and now that feat is wasted on something that never comes up anymore.

The whole trap mini-game is so arbitrary that I don't see much purpose to investing feats into it. Some suggested reading on the subject: Bad Trap Syndrome. Also, Part 2.

[Nifft]

L2 CC1: Travel Devotion (swap domain)
L2 CC1: Knowledge devotion (swap domain)

Complete Champion only allows you to swap ONE domain for a devotion feat.

If you want more than one, you can just pay for the other one(s) normally.

[Master O'Laughs]

Complete Champion only allows you to swap ONE domain for a devotion feat.

If you want more than one, you can just pay for the other one(s) normally.

Thanks. Current set up is taking elf, war, and knowledge domain and swapping knowledge for devotion. Travel Devotion is getting picked up at lvl 1.

L1 S1 Travel Devotion
L1 Human Able Learner
L1 Flaw (Noncombatant) Improved Initiative
L2 S2
L3 CC D1 Weapon Focus (War Domain)
L3 CC D2 Point-Blank Shot (Elf Domain)
L3 CC D3 Knowledge Devotion
L3 CC Precise Shot
L4 S3
L5 R1 BF Track
L6 R2 CS Rapid Shot
L6 R3 Swift Hunter
L7 R3 BF Endurance
L9 R6 Craft Wondrous Items
L10 R6 ICS Many Shot
L11 S4 Improved Skirmish

[Master O'Laughs]

That depends a great deal on how often the DM uses traps, and how high the DCs tend to be.

Outside of that, you'd want a difference higher than at least +3, which is what you get from Skill Focus. However, Skill Focus is widely regarded as a terrible feat. I'm not really a big fan of feats that give bonuses to skill checks, when you can increase your bonus on that check just by leveling up and putting more skill ranks in that skill. You'd also have to assume that after you've cranked up your Search/Disable Device checks to a humongous bonus, the DM won't deliberately (or even unconsciously) adjust the detect/disable DCs even higher to make sure traps are still a "challenge" for you. Or if the DM doesn't adjust the DCs, then you may have a high enough modifier that traps are no longer a threat to the party, in which case the DM stops using traps altogether... and now that feat is wasted on something that never comes up anymore.

The whole trap mini-game is so arbitrary that I don't see much purpose to investing feats into it. Some suggested reading on the subject: Bad Trap Syndrome. Also, Part 2.

That is good to know. Disable Device is currently a 19 after all said and done and Search is 22.
I decided to pick up a Lens of Detection and I have Masterwork Thieves Tools

I will remember to avoid them.