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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Double bladed scimitar

    Quote Originally Posted by Tetrasodium View Post
    I'd like to see a strength based nifty toy though, maybe gnoll myrnaxe, war troll cleaver, etc. It could even be paired with powerful build to really make that worth something.
    I would really hate that, honestly, because it makes that the clearly superior option (like this double scimitar is now the clearly superior Rogue weapon). I would rather WotC keep the release schedule slow than have this kind of power creep get released.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Double bladed scimitar

    Quote Originally Posted by CBAnaesthesia View Post
    I would really hate that, honestly, because it makes that the clearly superior option (like this double scimitar is now the clearly superior Rogue weapon). I would rather WotC keep the release schedule slow than have this kind of power creep get released.
    It's weird that it straight-on adds finesse quality, instead of just changing the ability score used for attack and damage, like monk, whem monk was made that way specifically to avoid rogue multiclass shennanigans.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Double bladed scimitar

    Quote Originally Posted by Tetrasodium View Post
    anyone can take a dagger or short sword in their offhand & make an extra attack as a bonus action, the only difference is that this one is 2d4 instead of something else.
    The dagger or shortsword doesn't add their modifier to damage which is a big deal. Even 1d4+mod is almost always better than 1d8, no mod. Also, even ignoring that, 2d4 is better damage than any 1-handed melee weapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tetrasodium View Post
    PAM also gives the ability to AoO things that enter your threat range too. Given that the dbs is not a "glaive, halberd, pike, or quarterstaff" it doesn't work together with it either.
    Yes but Revenant Blade gives you +1 Dex/Str and +1AC, which PAM doesn't. The AoO part of PAM isn't strictly better than this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tetrasodium View Post
    oh really? how do you damage a character through blink?... you don't really. How do you damage a character through mirror image... it's pretty tough. How do you damage a character who can knock things back 10 feet multiple times/round with a d10+stat repelling agonizing blast when they can just misty step away if something dashes at them, etc. I suppose you would be confused if you don't know what kind of defensive spells a scorlock can have at their fingertips on top of either 13+dex or medium armor.
    Blink: readied actions for when they reappear, also they have a 55% chance not to disappear on the next turn.
    Mirror Image: AoEs and Saving Throw spells are unaffected by Mirror Image.
    Repelling Blast: attack from range.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Double bladed scimitar

    Quote Originally Posted by CBAnaesthesia View Post
    I would really hate that, honestly, because it makes that the clearly superior option (like this double scimitar is now the clearly superior Rogue weapon). I would rather WotC keep the release schedule slow than have this kind of power creep get released.
    Well it's kind of hard to backport setting specific weapons from "TotallyNotFaerun"into 5e without some of that power creep you mention because none of those other settings were considered much if at all in order to make more room forthings like drizzt's sidebar & a full page of names for humans in different regions within forgotten realms. The only way to avoid "power creep" is to make sure that nothing in it is desirable & we all know how that worked for the sword coast adventurers guide to green flame blade worked out.

    Right now dex is equal or better than every single 1 handed weapon on phb149 (d4-d8, anything higher is 2 handed) on top of the fact that dex is objectively more useful than strength (lots of important dex saves vrs almost no strength saves & very rarely important ones. dex to ac str to nothing. dex to acrobatics stealth & slight of hand, str to athletics. Nearly everything you can use a strength save/athletics check against can also use a dex/acrobatics too... etc).as quicklyrainbow corrected me on earlier, all of the weapons on that table can be used with charisma & the value of charisma is no secret.

    -a Myrnaxe is almost certainly going to be a 1 handed weapon that might be light making it viable for offhand strength based & a d8 slash/pierce damage would mean trength doesn't need the dual wielder feat for the equivalent of dual rapiers to make up for some of the greater value of dex over strength.

    -A war troll cleaver might be 1handed with powerful build or 2 handed otherwise Give it a feat/special for a knockback/knockdown/debuff on a target or something & it could be very useful even if it was only a d10 , 1d6+1d4, or 3d4 depending on if you are using it 1 or 2 handed. with or without the feat for the extra benefits the improved averagewould be a nice thing If the feat allows other heavy weapons wielded with strength then it avoids your "clearly superior option"problem.

    There is one comment of yours that needs special calling out though "I would rather WotC keep the release schedule slow than have this kind of power creep get released."... Fifth edition has been out for four years, six ifd you include the playtest & people have been complaining about a lack of rules for eberron stuff sop long that there are multiple community made adaptations of how things were adapted by different people (often coflicting in some way too). If 4-6 years is too quick for you, How many decades & official sourcebooks set in forgotten realms do you propose eberron fans wait for rules needed for their favorite setting to have official rules eh?

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Double bladed scimitar

    Quote Originally Posted by Tetrasodium View Post
    Well it's kind of hard to backport setting specific weapons from "TotallyNotFaerun"into 5e
    No it isn't, just say "A double scimitar is a Glaive that takes extra training to wield effectively, so you're no good with the second blade unless you take PAM."

    Quote Originally Posted by Tetrasodium View Post
    The only way to avoid "power creep" is to make sure that nothing in it is desirable & we all know how that worked for the sword coast adventurers guide to green flame blade worked out.
    SCAG cantrips aren't the clear best option for every instance of a specific character build, all the time - they're best for an Eldritch Knight from levels 1-4 and 7-11 (and considering that EKs didn't have great damage options before this, it doesn't make them OP anyway, just good), and situational after that. They're best for an AT or Swashbuckler, too, but you lose out on dual-wielding for more chances to land Sneak Attack, which is extra good for Swashbucklers (since they don't need to bonus action Disengage, they're more likely to want to attempt a second Sneak Attack if they miss their main attack). The Dual Scimitar, on the other hand, is the best option for pretty much anyone who would use a 2-handed weapon, Str or Dex, unless they have GWM. It's definitely the best weapon for any melee Rogues or Hexblades.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tetrasodium View Post
    snip, Dex vs Str discussion
    Yeah, Dex is OP and Str is underpowered. I sympathize with that. I don't think finesse or ranged weapons should get +Dex to damage, but that ship has obviously sailed.
    However, the fact that Dex is better than Str is only exacerbated by the Dual Scimitar, which is a Dex weapon that encroaches on the niche of Str weapons as they currently exist, and the way to fix that IMO is to throw the Dual Scimitar in the trash, not to introduce even more newer and betterer Str weapons and power creep even harder. New feats like Fell Handed or something, sure.
    Also no, Athletics and Acrobatics are not interchangeable for everything. The skill descriptions are quite clear - Athletics is things like climbing, swimming, jumping, lifting, Acrobatics is things like keeping your balance. They can both be used to escape a grapple but they're clearly delineated if your DM is using them RAW.

    As far as having WotC take their time to balance - I stand by it. They haven't been writing the Eberron book for 4 years. They should've started it earlier and had it come out earlier, but it shouldn't be released as-is because it's not balanced for 5e. I'm not saying they should take their time to release more FR sourcebooks before getting to other settings, just that when they actually start a book, don't rush it to market.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Double bladed scimitar

    Let us take a step back a second and really think about this for a second.

    There are things about this weapon that should be looked at but I think there is a lot of talk about things that really do not matter.

    My biggest indication of this I think is the talk about it being a two handed finesse weapon. Two handed weapon is not a good thing. I cannot think of one major thing that is good for being two handed property itself. You cannot use a shield, you cannot use a second item in your other hand and still attack, and its fighting style is rather lackluster especially if used how WotC says it is to be used (which for balance discussions on how WotC is designing things is the version you should use in discussions). The only thing I can think of which is not that big is that it is easier to use spell components with a two handed weapon than a person using shield or two weapons but that only affects certain characters and many of them are going to deal with that issue with the very useful warcaster feat.

    Remember GWF feat only works with heavy weapons NOT two handed weapons. Yes all current heavy weapons are 2 handed but remember that heavy is not part of the two handed property (and nothing in the game says it has to be on a two handed weapon just all current examples are) PAM has several major advantages over this scimitar and its feat. First if you are using a staff it can be used one handed and gets to use a shield. If you use the actual polarm weapons then they are all heavy and that means you can pick up GWF to add +10 damage to that bonus action attack. The double scimitar cannot do that. In addition gives you the ability to make opportunity attacks to those in your reach and the double scimitar does not get this special bonus.

    For damage 2d4 on the main hand and 1d4 on the bonus action is really similar to standard TWF damage (if you remove the ability score to damage I will get to that). Also note that 2d4 is not always advantageous over 1d8 such as playing a barbarian or using some other ability that specifies adding a weapons die to damage since the double scimitar only gets to add 1d4 not 2d4 (and the difference between 2d4 and 1d8 is rather small to begin with not IMO worth getting into a fight over). With the feat it is fairly similar to having the dual wielding feat in many ways.



    Now there are things that should get a hard look here and the biggest one is that you get your ability score mod to damage with the bonus action attack. While I do think the effect is not overpowered (frankly that is something I would give an off hand attack as a default at the very least when you get the extra attack ability) it does fly in the face of TWF. To me that is more due to TWF being made too weak rather than this being too strong but I do believe it is unlikely that they are going to change TWF so I do think it is fair to consider removing the abiltiy score mod from damage on the bonus action attack. My recommendation would be to add the clause "this bonus action attack is treated as an off hand attack as per two weapon fighting". Or change TWF that would be my preference but it will not likely happen.
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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Double bladed scimitar

    You're right that "two-handed," per se, isn't an advantage, but the problem is that it is a big-damage Dex weapon, which is highly desirable, since Dex is already overpowered compared to Str. Also the "1d8 is better than 2d4" situations you discuss are fairly edge cases, 2d4 is still generally better.
    Also, in comparing the Double Scimitar to PAM weapons, you're right in that it doesn't get everything that PAM does but PAM is a full feat whereas Revenant Blade is a half feat, and it gives you additional AC unlike PAM. It is a strict upgrade to TWF, while also stepping on the toes of Str weapons in general.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Double bladed scimitar

    Quote Originally Posted by CBAnaesthesia View Post
    You're right that "two-handed," per se, isn't an advantage, but the problem is that it is a big-damage Dex weapon, which is highly desirable, since Dex is already overpowered compared to Str. Also the "1d8 is better than 2d4" situations you discuss are fairly edge cases, 2d4 is still generally better.
    Also, in comparing the Double Scimitar to PAM weapons, you're right in that it doesn't get everything that PAM does but PAM is a full feat whereas Revenant Blade is a half feat, and it gives you additional AC unlike PAM. It is a strict upgrade to TWF, while also stepping on the toes of Str weapons in general.
    First off people WAY overvalue dex over str. Secondly this is not really any better than what dex already has. It has an average damage of 5 compared to a rapiers damage of 4.5. If you want to compare it to TWF then you get 7 for dual short swords before accuracy and 7.5 for the double scimitar. In either case you are getting worked up over 1/2 a point of damage per attack that should be seen as well within any guidelines for creating something new. Many classes like rogues do not care about damage dice. When you have a +10d6 sneak attack the difference between a d6, d8, and 2d4 is minimal on your overall damage.

    It does not step on the toes of str based weaponry because it cannot do what str based weaponry wants. Str based weapons have advantages in having access to the blunt damage type and to GWF which this weapon does neither. Everything else that str has going for it is mostly weapon agnostic (such as grappling or pushing). +1 AC is not something that makes it better than PAM if it was dual wielder would be seen as much better (and if you look many will tell you that dual wielder needs to be made into a half feat because it is so weak).

    If you take out the ability score mod and take the time to consider some other pressing questions (is it like 3e where a double weapon had to have each end separately enchanted or is it like 4e where the weapon has one enchantment for the whole thing) then it really is not too terribly different from TWF. Most of the benefits that it would give are mostly not noticeable in a game since seeing a slightly higher average of damage is hard to gauge when the max damage is the same.

    There are some things that need to be worked out here but honestly a lot of what is being argued about seems to be about some very small differences in numbers. Heck you could change the damage die to d8 and it really does not matter or you could even change it to a d6 on both ends by default and then have the feat upgrade it to d8s and it still makes little difference in the end.
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Double bladed scimitar

    It can't be used for GWM or Sharpshooter.

    If it makes for a viable two weapon fighting style, awesome. Two weapon fighting sucks in 5th edition. You know it, I know it, my dog knows it, and of course the Shadow knows.

    Unless you've got gimmicks, it isn't out-performing GWM or Sharpshooter. If you've got gimmicks, that's what a non-GWM or Sharpshooter weapon is for.

    On its own, it's OK. With its feat, it roughly matches the better weapons that everyone uses because the other weapons suck.

    Do we want another weapon that sucks? Is that our goal? Are all your Strength based characters going to abandon their Glaives and Greatswords and join the Double Scimitar revolution? Will you actually see *gasp* a Dex-based weapon that ISN'T A RAPIER? Truly, a horrifying prospect.
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  10. - Top - End - #100
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Double bladed scimitar

    Quote Originally Posted by unusualsuspect View Post
    It can't be used for GWM or Sharpshooter.

    If it makes for a viable two weapon fighting style, awesome. Two weapon fighting sucks in 5th edition. You know it, I know it, my dog knows it, and of course the Shadow knows.

    Unless you've got gimmicks, it isn't out-performing GWM or Sharpshooter. If you've got gimmicks, that's what a non-GWM or Sharpshooter weapon is for.

    On its own, it's OK. With its feat, it roughly matches the better weapons that everyone uses because the other weapons suck.

    Do we want another weapon that sucks? Is that our goal? Are all your Strength based characters going to abandon their Glaives and Greatswords and join the Double Scimitar revolution? Will you actually see *gasp* a Dex-based weapon that ISN'T A RAPIER? Truly, a horrifying prospect.
    two weapon doesn't "suck". I'm firmly in the camp not thinking there is a problem with 2d4+2d4, getting +stat on both of those might be worth looking at though.

    I want to see more solid & interesting options for strength builds though because the value of having a high strength is so much less than a high dex. Being able to maim(debuff) a target with a myrnaxe,knock back/down a target with a war troll's cleaver as part of the normal attack, etc would mean that strength suddenly has interesting options again beyond simply hurting things.

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    Default Re: Double bladed scimitar

    TWF is ok but not very good. It feels better when not allowing many extra options like feats or SCAG cantrips but when you allow the broad spectrum of stuff out there it starts to feel a bit lacking or at the very least tacked on. So many things do not work with it but probably should. The fact it requires the attack action means that if you making attacks without it you are effectively not getting to use the style and the same thing happens if you use bonus actions in general. A TWF EK just does not work at the same time you either get to use war magic or get to use two weapons but it is the only fighting style with the restriction. The fighting style is also not good enough to need those restrictions either.

    Its clunkiness is its biggest problem. The fact it requires a bonus action for an extra attack in a system that has many ways of acquiring a bonus action attack that is even better really hurts it. Right now it is the only fighting style that does not really fight against fighting style but feats, spells, and sub class abilities.
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    Default Re: Double bladed scimitar

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    Its clunkiness is its biggest problem. The fact it requires a bonus action for an extra attack in a system that has many ways of acquiring a bonus action attack that is even better really hurts it. Right now it is the only fighting style that does not really fight against fighting style but feats, spells, and sub class abilities.
    I agree. I'm not sure adding a new item that replaces the fighting style does anything to solve this problem.

    I am also not comfortable with deciding that everything that isn't GWM or Sharpshooter sucks, and therefore the correct choice is to introduce new options at that power level. That's a heck of a lot of power creep. A better option is just to nerf those two feats and be done with it.

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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Double bladed scimitar

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickLyRaiNbow View Post
    I agree. I'm not sure adding a new item that replaces the fighting style does anything to solve this problem.

    I am also not comfortable with deciding that everything that isn't GWM or Sharpshooter sucks, and therefore the correct choice is to introduce new options at that power level. That's a heck of a lot of power creep. A better option is just to nerf those two feats and be done with it.
    I disagree. Better options would be to allow options that are lateral shifts so different options are varied in more than just damge type/level.

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    Default Re: Double bladed scimitar

    Quote Originally Posted by Tetrasodium View Post
    Snip
    A myrnaxe is almost certainly going to be nothing, because nobody (except you, apparently) cares about a weapon that showed up in one non-canon novel trilogy. And that isn't appreciably different from existing axe anyway.

    A war troll cleaver, is, at best, going to be part of the war troll stat block, if we even got that one at all, not something for the players to wield, as trolls are large-sized. And, again, covered by existing axe.

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    Default Re: Double bladed scimitar

    Quote Originally Posted by Tetrasodium View Post
    I want to see more solid & interesting options for strength builds though because the value of having a high strength is so much less than a high dex.
    I mean, I totally agree with this, I just don't think introducing new and more powerful weapons is the way to go about it, because those aren't really alternatives. If a weapon is just flat-out better, it's not an alternative, just an upgrade.
    I'd be on board with using feats to do it, though, things more along the lines of Shield Master or Fell Handed.

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    Default Re: Double bladed scimitar

    Quote Originally Posted by unusualsuspect View Post
    Will you actually see *gasp* a Dex-based weapon that ISN'T A RAPIER? Truly, a horrifying prospect.
    The issue is that there is already hardly any reason to build a Str character unless you want GWM because Dex is just a flat-out more useful stat. A better save, better AC at low levels and barely worse at high levels, initiative, infinitely better ranged options, etc. The only thing Str has going for it in combat is grapple/shove and bigger damage from 2H fighting (although Dex has Sharpshooter, which is even more OP), and this weapon definitely encroaches on that second niche.
    There is no reason ever that an elf Rogue wouldn't take this weapon and Revenant Blade, unless maybe they use Booming Blade. There's also not much reason for a Paladin to use one of their limited feats on PAM since they mostly want it for the extra attack to try and get a 3rd smite - just use the DS instead.

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    Default Re: Double bladed scimitar

    Quote Originally Posted by CBAnaesthesia View Post
    I mean, I totally agree with this, I just don't think introducing new and more powerful weapons is the way to go about it, because those aren't really alternatives. If a weapon is just flat-out better, it's not an alternative, just an upgrade.
    I'd be on board with using feats to do it, though, things more along the lines of Shield Master or Fell Handed.
    feats are a great way to do it. The weapons I mentioned are just a few examples. I'm not sure that feats should be the only way of doing it.

    @JackPhoenix, there are zero cannon eberron novels, not even Keith Baker's own novels are cannon. That is one of the major differences between eberron & forgotteb realms. It has been mentioned in sourcebooks though.

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    Default Re: Double bladed scimitar

    Quote Originally Posted by CBAnaesthesia View Post
    The issue is that there is already hardly any reason to build a Str character unless you want GWM because Dex is just a flat-out more useful stat. A better save, better AC at low levels and barely worse at high levels, initiative, infinitely better ranged options, etc. The only thing Str has going for it in combat is grapple/shove and bigger damage from 2H fighting (although Dex has Sharpshooter, which is even more OP), and this weapon definitely encroaches on that second niche.
    There is no reason ever that an elf Rogue wouldn't take this weapon and Revenant Blade, unless maybe they use Booming Blade. There's also not much reason for a Paladin to use one of their limited feats on PAM since they mostly want it for the extra attack to try and get a 3rd smite - just use the DS instead.
    So it's a viable option for some characters, but for each character that does it, they're giving up on other powerful options to do so.

    GWM/PAM is still going to be the King of Consistent Damage. Double Scimitar encroaches, but still ain't there.

    PAM does more than just the extra attack. You're almost guaranteed to have melee enemies approaching your character to attack, but there's pretty much never a guarantee that they'll try to run away from you once you engage. Hitting on entering a space is an incredibly powerful ability, and it stacks with other feats (GWM, Sentinel) in ways that the Double Scimitar will not.

    Double Scimitar is a decent weapon if you don't want to invest in something. If you DO invest, GWM/PAM/Sharpshooter are all going to outperform the Double Scimitar in damage unless you're exploiting a gimmick (and if you were, there's little functional difference except a few points of damage from using TWF, which yes, does suck horribly).

    D&D 5e has been out for years now. GWM and Sharpshooter have been in there since the very beginning, and the Devs haven't modified them in any way, shape, or form relevant to their balance. If they haven't done it yet, they won't do it. I'd rather they introduce more options that I will ACTUALLY USE than introduce new items that are balanced in a way that they're just OK and are never seen except on insanely niche builds. That means balancing against GWM/PAM/Sharpshooter, Agonizing Eldritch Blast, Booming Blade Rogues, etc., where it becomes a DECISION whether to pursue the new alternative for most builds rather than a SACRIFICE.
    Last edited by unusualsuspect; 2018-07-29 at 03:15 AM.
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    Default Re: Double bladed scimitar

    I don't agree that it's a decision. Every melee Dex character should be using a DBS - every single one. We've introduced one more homogenizing element. Yay.

    I also want to get at this "it's decent if you don't invest anything" idea. It's not decent. It's the best no-investment weapon in the game, bar none, the end, because it's the only one that gives you your attribute modifier to damage on the bonus attack without investment.

    The whole thing is poorly designed. It's race-specific and campaign setting-specific... but it's better mechanically than every weapon that doesn't benefit from the Big 3. It has a feat that represents some sort of ancestral aptitude... that you can't access until level 4. It changes type to a finesse weapon... once you take a feat, so your first three levels are going to be gimped by comparison.

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    Default Re: Double bladed scimitar

    Just looking at the thing, maybe a reasonable restriction could be that 50% of the time you have to make the bonus action attack against yourself.
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    Default Re: Double bladed scimitar

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickLyRaiNbow View Post
    I don't agree that it's a decision. Every melee Dex character should be using a DBS - every single one. We've introduced one more homogenizing element. Yay.

    I also want to get at this "it's decent if you don't invest anything" idea. It's not decent. It's the best no-investment weapon in the game, bar none, the end, because it's the only one that gives you your attribute modifier to damage on the bonus attack without investment.

    The whole thing is poorly designed. It's race-specific and campaign setting-specific... but it's better mechanically than every weapon that doesn't benefit from the Big 3. It has a feat that represents some sort of ancestral aptitude... that you can't access until level 4. It changes type to a finesse weapon... once you take a feat, so your first three levels are going to be gimped by comparison.
    Thanks for summing up all my problems with it so succinctly, as well as pointing out the problem with how the feat is "gated."
    It's also not only every melee Dex character who wants it - it's every melee character without PAM/GWM, period. All the talk about how Revenant Blade isn't quite as good as PAM is also sort of missing the point that RB is only a half-feat, and gives +1AC, mitigating half the opportunity cost of going 2-handed instead of S&B. These are non-trivial things, IMO.

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    Default Re: Double bladed scimitar

    Quote Originally Posted by CBAnaesthesia View Post
    It's also not only every melee Dex character who wants it - it's every melee character without PAM/GWM, period.
    True even for PAM/GWM characters before they get to pick up those feats at 4. That's why it's so problematic to compare to other weapons. It's indisputably better than they are, except that it doesn't qualify for two overpowered feats.

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    Default Re: Double bladed scimitar

    Quote Originally Posted by CBAnaesthesia View Post
    Thanks for summing up all my problems with it so succinctly, as well as pointing out the problem with how the feat is "gated."
    It's also not only every melee Dex character who wants it - it's every melee character without PAM/GWM, period. All the talk about how Revenant Blade isn't quite as good as PAM is also sort of missing the point that RB is only a half-feat, and gives +1AC, mitigating half the opportunity cost of going 2-handed instead of S&B. These are non-trivial things, IMO.
    In setting it's not a problem. Your average human soldier was like a level 1 fighter, the valenar elf mercenaries were like level 4.The same page of wgte that the double bladed scimitar starts on also includes an option for elves to start with proficiency in it, on the next page it talks about trading proficiency with some other martial weapon for nonelves. Not being skilled enough to use it effectively instead of a dagger/short sword/rapier/etc until you have gained a few levels also fits the lore for those weapons & people wielding them.

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    Default Re: Double bladed scimitar

    Quote Originally Posted by Tetrasodium View Post
    In setting it's not a problem... Not being skilled enough to use it effectively instead of a dagger/short sword/rapier/etc until you have gained a few levels also fits the lore for those weapons & people wielding them.
    Yes but even without the feat, it's the best weapon, period (excepting PAM/GWM) so even a level 1 character can use it more effectively than the other weapons you're talking about even without the feat - at least, Str builds can. Getting the feat just makes it better by a wider margin.

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    Default Re: Double bladed scimitar

    Quote Originally Posted by CBAnaesthesia View Post
    Yes but even without the feat, it's the best weapon, period (excepting PAM/GWM) so even a level 1 character can use it more effectively than the other weapons you're talking about even without the feat - at least, Str builds can. Getting the feat just makes it better by a wider margin.
    You'll get no argument that might be true for a strength build depending on intent of the offhand attack being an attack that includes stat mod or not, but the lore associated with the weapon itself & the setting it came from outweighs the relevance of if a dex build is suboptimal using strength with it or using some other weapon till level 4 when they can be skilled enough to use it effectively.
    Last edited by Tetrasodium; 2018-07-29 at 03:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Double bladed scimitar

    Quote Originally Posted by Tetrasodium View Post
    You'll get no argument that might be true for a strength build depending on intent of the offhand attack being an attack that includes stat mod or not, but the lore associated with the weapon itself & the setting it came from outweighs the relevance of if a dex build is suboptimal using strength with it or using some other weapon till level 4 when they can be skilled enough to use it effectively.
    It's unambiguous that the bonus action attack includes the stat mod. It explicitly states in the PHB that an attack includes the stat mod unless otherwise stated, like with dual-wielding; the dual scimitar does not explicitly state this like dual-wielding does. Therefore, the stat mod is included.
    Does the lore you're referring to also say that you need training to be better with the dual scimitar than with a longsword, or just a rapier? Because as-is, anyone is better off with the dual scimitar than they are with a longsword, feat or no.

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    Default Re: Double bladed scimitar

    I'm a Human with Shield Master. Why do I why do I want to be an elf with Revenant Blade?
    Last edited by Kadesh; 2018-07-29 at 04:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Double bladed scimitar

    Quote Originally Posted by CBAnaesthesia View Post
    It's unambiguous that the bonus action attack includes the stat mod. It explicitly states in the PHB that an attack includes the stat mod unless otherwise stated, like with dual-wielding; the dual scimitar does not explicitly state this like dual-wielding does. Therefore, the stat mod is included.
    Does the lore you're referring to also say that you need training to be better with the dual scimitar than with a longsword, or just a rapier? Because as-is, anyone is better off with the dual scimitar than they are with a longsword, feat or no.
    wtf man? I was pretty clear that we don't know if the wording conveys the intended mechanics or not. But since you ask... ECS119 (3.5) chapter six adventuring equipment starts with the following list of weapons:
    • Boomerang. Talenta: The halflings of the Talenta Plains use traditional boomerangs—simple curved. polished sticks designed to return to the thrower.
    • Boomerang. Xen’drik: The drow of Xendrik use three pronged boomerangs to hunt prey. Some adventurers and explorers learn to use the weapon while operating in the Xen’driik jungles. but few outside the draw communities ever master the intricacies ofthe Xen‘drilt boomerang.
      A boomerang of any sort returns to its thrower when it misses its target. To catch a returning boomerang. the thrower must make an attack roll (as if he were throwing the boomerang) against AC 10. Failure indicates that the boomerang lands 10 Feet away from the thrower in a random direction.
    • Scimitar. Valenar Double: The elves of Valenar use a dangerous and exotic double weapon with curving scimitar blades on each end. You can fight with a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons. but if you do. you incur all the normal attack penalties as if using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. A creature using a double weapon in one hand. such as a Large creature using a Medium double scimitar. can't use it as a double weapon.
    • Sharrash. Talenta: Similar to a scythe. the Talenta sharrash developed by the halflings of the Plains consists of a sickle like blade at the end of a long pole. A sharrash has reach. You can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. but you can‘t use it against an adjacent foe.
      Because of a sharrash's curved blade. you can also use it to make trip attacks. ”you are tripped during your own trip attempt. you can drop the sharrash to avoid being tripped
    • Tangat. Talenta: The tangat. developed by the halflings of the Talenta Plains. features a curved blade (like a scimitar's) mounted on a short halt.
    They should not be designed in isolation from the much more detailed cultures associated with them as some of those get several mentions through the various eberron sourcebooks when talking about those cultures.

    Now... take a minute to catch your breath, stop hyperventilating, and allow the adults to discuss this without the constant shrill shrieking about what is quite possibly an unintended wording.

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    Default Re: Double bladed scimitar

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    I'm a Human with Shield Master. Why do I why do I want to be an elf with Revenant Blade?
    You probably don't, if you're a vHu with Shield Master at level 1. If you're a regular human, then you probably want to carry around a DBS until you get level 4.

    Of course, if the question you're asking is "why do I want to change the non-mechanics concept of my character?" then there's no good answer to that. You don't. But character concepts aren't about mechanics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tetrasodium View Post
    wtf man? I was pretty clear that we don't know if the wording conveys the intended mechanics or not.
    Yes but no one cares if you're clear, because less than a page ago you were trying to tell us that Hex Warrior didn't work with Blade Pact weapons by quoting the Improved Pact Weapon invocation.

    But since you ask... ECS119 (3.5) chapter six adventuring equipment starts with the following list of weapons:

    They should not be designed in isolation from the much more detailed cultures associated with them as some of those get several mentions through the various eberron sourcebooks when talking about those cultures.
    This is a different edition. Third Edition mechanics don't matter. Neither does Third Edition fluff. We have some nice, specific mechanics here already. PAM and the DBS add your ability modifier to damage. We know that because it says so in the text. Two Weapon Fighting is different - it specifically requires that you attack with a different weapon, that both weapons have the light property (Dual Wielder removes this requirement), and explicitly notes that you do not add your ability modifier to damage unless it's negative. The default state is adding ability modifiers to damage. You continue to do that unless you read words that say you shouldn't.

    Now... take a minute to catch your breath, stop hyperventilating, and allow the adults to discuss this without the constant shrill shrieking about what is quite possibly an unintended wording.
    Take your own advice here.
    Last edited by QuickLyRaiNbow; 2018-07-29 at 05:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Double bladed scimitar

    Quote Originally Posted by Tetrasodium View Post
    wtf man? I was pretty clear that we don't know if the wording conveys the intended mechanics or not.
    The wording as-is means that the stat modifier is added. That part is RAW in 5e. Your 3.5 book isn't relevant to the way the double scimitar is implemented in 5e.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tetrasodium View Post
    Now... take a minute to catch your breath, stop hyperventilating, and allow the adults to discuss this without the constant shrill shrieking about what is quite possibly an unintended wording.
    I've been nothing but calm. The wording is very clear, you're the only one who keeps bringing up the question of whether it is intended or not. Stop projecting.

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